It's still troubling for many of us who get maybe 2-3 hours a day to ply games to progress all of 0 checkpoints becuz it's too hard. I like DS3 though where I can summon folks
No worries, figured it was something like that. Sorry if I came off as aggressive.That was an accidental, honesty. My phone was acting up.
I wouldn't know since I don't follow the Dark series. My point was that your post implied that only From got criticism for the lack of options and inclusion, when people have made this complaint with other genre with fighting games being the most famous and probably oldest example.
Smash was partly made to crater to people who like fighting games, but lack the time, experience, or the ability to play them. And over the last decade, fighting games have become more inclusive and beginning friendly when it was the original 'git gud' genre. Yeah, fighting games still requires a lot of skill and people will always suck at them, but being more inclusive and trying to help the less skill and disabled didn't hurt the genre. And fighting games are hard to balance since it's competitive and not a single player experience.
Another example is Monster Hunter. People begged for years to make that series more inclusive and Capcom finally did it with Monster Hunter World by making just a few QOL adjustments. They didn't even need to add difficulty settings. Granted, some do think World is too easy, but it got people into the series that just couldn't before.
And this is just weak bullsh*t. My entire argument revolves around how successful From have been with their difficulty formula and how they are under ZERO obligation to change it. Their entire game catalog revolves around this formula and changing it would throw their whole game design philosophy out the window.yes because some are trying to gatekeep for no reason. There's things that can be done but some refuse to listen and would rather pretend they are superior.
i haven't seen these so kind of valid reasons but I have seen plenty of dismissing of accessibility for no reasons.
Death is a major theme in these games. It's literally used as a mechanic. There's a reason that dying does not lead to a game over screen.
Miyazaki is an idiot because you want him to design a different game?
It's still troubling for many of us who get maybe 2-3 hours a day to ply games to progress all of 0 checkpoints becuz it's too hard. I like DS3 though where I can summon folks
It's a risk/reward structure.Death penalty discourages exploration. If you're going to make people die constantly, at least don't take away their EXP.
It's not unique to gaming, but gaming is the only media I know that can get away with a lack of disabled options and people will defend it. Text too small for you to read, get glasses. Color blind, too bad. Got motion sickness because of the way a VR game is designed, game not for you or get used to it. Want to remap you're controls, you will used what the creator gives you and like it.Hearing impaired, sorry you just can't play certain games. I mean, most games don't even support controllers that can help them.
You don't need to know a disable person to know games need more options. That's called having empathy.
From can do whatever the hell they want. Doesn't mean they can't be called out on it when we have hard games that push players, while still given options so the disabled or the less skill can have a chance to enjoy their game too. This isn't a either or.
Agreed, and thank you for summarizing something I was struggling to express.The whole "accessibility" part feels like a huge buzzword that's distracting from the actual conversation. "Games should have accessibility options" and "Games should have variable difficulty settings" are two incredibly different arguments, and the first plays on some deeply rooted ideals and Important Conversations in ways that kinda reek of bullshit. "Everybody should be able to play" and "Everybody should be able to beat the game without having to throw themselves at the wall so much" are two completely different lines of thought.
To say that younger players and players with disabilities should be able to play every/any video game is a no brainer, and it's important that games continue to push for design that increases that accessibility.
"This game is too hard, why does it have to be so hard?" is not an argument for accessibility, it's an argument for lowered difficulty, and it's honestly one I really can't argue for. Yes, these games could be easier. But they have no requirement to be that way, anymore than a JRPG has a requirement to drop turn based combat or a console based first person shooter a requirement to add scoping options. "But you can and people want you to" isn't a sufficient argument for "all super hard games should have easier difficulty levels". It's not a matter of elitism it's a matter of having a target audience, and not having a reason nor desire to grow it. "But I can enjoy it for another reason" yeah and I like Weezer's melodies and hate their lyrics, that doesn't mean that Rivers Coumo has a moral obligation to make albums that aren't about pretending to be an awkward angsty 15 year old band geek at the age of 50.
The only reason this is even like, a debate is because this whole meme turned into a whole hearings on the morality of "hard mode", and that's only a thing because Gamers use difficulty as a dick measuring contest, which makes people who like hard games look like cocky douchebags and people who don't look like insecure weaklings, and both sides resent the other for that perception.
Death penalty discourages exploration. If you're going to make people die constantly, at least don't take away their EXP.
It's just all so obnoxious because like, I absolutely sympathize with "I like these From Software games a lot, they have great writing, great game design, cool atmosphere and storytelling and some world class music... but they're super difficult and I don't like that kind of gameplay", but that the most common response to that is "From Software games should add options to make the game less difficult" and not "I want more game developers that take the best parts of From Games without the huge difficulty curve, hey do you guys know of any?" is really disheartening. Honestly I don't even think there's something wrong in wanting From games to be easier, but it's not a question of "right vs. wrong", it's just another fan requests in the huge, overwhelming sea of fan requests that doesn't get special priority hitching itself onto a conversation about accessibility and disability in society.Agreed, and thank you for summarizing something I was struggling to express.
I'd be surprised if someone hadn't already tried to split up difficulty and accesibilty at this point. I'm sure we've gone in a circles a few times by now.
First of all thanks for the elaborate response!At the end of the day it comes down to why someone plays video games and how much time and effort someone is willing to put in to a video game. I don't understand people who love dying 474939 times and sweating and using a ton of energy on one game. Never have, never will. Real life is hard enough.
My argument is that there's so much more to the games than the difficulty, and I said that I think Miyazaki is an idiot and selling himself short by sticking to the high difficulty. I've been playing DS2 and I enjoy most things about the game aside from the difficulty. I do think that it's mostly fair, and I've been able to basically comfortably spam spells from a distance with most bosses. If I die in an area too many times, eventually the enemies will become extinct and the run to the next bonfire will get easier and easier. A lot of things are insanely obtuse, but I'm playing offline so I'm sure a lot of helpful hints are lost to me.
But from what it sounds like, Sekiro allows only one type of playstyle, and if it's not your thing, you're screwed. You can't get through to the end sorry. I don't agree with that, at all. Like there isn't even a demo to try out and see if it's your thing. And I think that's dumb of Miyazaki. If you want to stick to one difficulty level, I get it, but at least provide options to players so they can get around things! Maybe some players don't enjoy dying 473929293 times and don't want to pour all their energy into a game that requires fast reflexes, but enjoy other aspects of the game.
One thing's for sure though: penalty upon death needs to fucking go. The games are all about exploration and verticality, and it's bad enough that there's traps and super tough enemies and gangs of enemies hiding in shadows everywhere, but you also want to punish the player by taking away their experience upon death? Yeah that totally encourages me to explore... I don't see anything gained from that unless you view annoying the player as a positive. This is why I view Miyazaki's "I don't care about making games difficult" comment as, quite frankly, mostly horseshit.
And yes, I should refrain from attacking the other side's character, even though I view it as gatekeeping.
Because I am right and that comment proves it or you would have said something productive.
If you have read this thread and haven't seen any reasons for it, then you should check your Cyclops goggles. Or is it because you're...dismissing them?i haven't seen these so kind of valid reasons but I have seen plenty of dismissing of accessibility for no reasons.
That's funny because I find posts like these to be the ones who just "refuse to listen" and who invent motivations with regards to others.yes because some are trying to gatekeep for no reason. There's things that can be done but some refuse to listen and would rather pretend they are superior.
i haven't seen these so kind of valid reasons but I have seen plenty of dismissing of accessibility for no reasons.
I've read and responded but again you are exactly what I'm talking about. Your posts in this thread have shown that you want to hold it over because your happy with the options they give instead of improving accessibility including difficult.If you have read this thread and haven't seen any reasons for it, then you should check your Cyclops goggles. Or is it because you're...dismissing them?
we have had this conversation multiple times and it always boils down to one group refusing to think that from games could have multiple accessibility options including difficulty and down playing the complaints. I enjoy playing from games but they would be just as good with more options and there have been plenty of good suggestions.That's funny because I find posts like these to be the ones who just "refuse to listen" and who invent motivations with regards to others.
Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they have their opinions "for no reasons". Plenty of reasons have been given. It's OK to disagree, but let's not attribute motives such as "pretending to be superior" when no one (except maybe a troll or two) said that.
At least in regards to souls games, people have made cogent arguments for why difficulty settings would hurt their experience. People just continue to talk over it. With regards to sekiro, this would be a much easier game to create difficulty settings for without hurting anyone's experience. Thats not the case with Dark souls however.Myself and others have talked about why this isn't really the case elsewhere in the thread.
Feel free to disagree, but there are plenty of people who do think it hurts their experience to have difficulty settings.
No one should be making games under the pretense of if someone has a job. 90% of the people here have jobs (some of us hae more than one). Video gaming is a hobby. And even then I'm not sue why you think its troubling to only play these games 2-3 hours a day. Thats an incredible amount of time.It's still troubling for many of us who get maybe 2-3 hours a day to ply games to progress all of 0 checkpoints becuz it's too hard. I like DS3 though where I can summon folks
There are some games that aren't even fully subtitled. Accessibility options is nowhere near as abundant as you seem to think they are.I don't want them to add any difficulty options because I'm selfish.
I see them trying to do that as a risk. they could knock it out of the park and make a great easier mode, but they could also fuck it up horribly and ruin a good game because of it. I don't want them to take that risk at all.
We don't get many games designed like this, so people who want these types of games don't have much options, well people who want easier games have a shit ton of games to choose from.
I don't have any faith From Software is competent enough to make it work.
So you think I hold these opinions because I "want to feel superior" and for "no reasons", and not because of the reasons I actually gave in my posts? Like, what even is this? If Miyazaki decided tomorrow Elden Ring needs an easy difficulty, I wouldn't have anything against it. But I'm not the one telling a dev who develops games a certain way since a decade+ to chance their design philosophy and people who like that specific philosphy how they want to feel superior, are assholes, gatekeepers, elitists or even ableist.I've read and responded but again you are exactly what I'm talking about. Your posts in this thread have shown that you want to hold it over because your happy with the options they give instead of improving accessibility including difficult.
What ableist speech?I thought the whole Sekiro controversy was not about the difficulty, but Miyazaki's sorta ableist speech from the very beginning.
We don't want to include a difficulty selection because we want to bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment," Miyazaki said. "So we want everyone … to first face that challenge and to overcome it in some way that suits them as a player."
That's... a perfectly fine design philosphy?We don't want to include a difficulty selection because we want to bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment," Miyazaki said. "So we want everyone … to first face that challenge and to overcome it in some way that suits them as a player."
Tons of games get criticized for it. There was a huge thread about the lack of font size options in games. From is just the only one that has a fan base that is especially against them said options.That's... a perfectly fine design philosphy?
All this shows me is that they understand how their games got this big and why they had such an impact on the industry.
"Ableist speech", really?
And more importantly, please show me all these games that can be completed by everyone, because somehow Fromsoft is the only dev on this planet worthy of criticism regarding accesibilty.
There is a difference between wanting text size options, colour blind options and so on, and wanting a dev to add multiple difficulties to a game that had it's whole niche carved by only providing one difficulty. Nobody is against the former, acting like anyone here is is really fucking disingenuous.Tons of games get criticized for it. There was a huge thread about the lack of font size options in games. From is just the only one that has a fan base that is especially against them said options.
I disagree. They're intrinsically linked; there is no hard line of "well this person has a ADA-recognized mental disability" or "age 16 is when you are old enough to handle a game of this difficulty".The whole "accessibility" part feels like a huge buzzword that's distracting from the actual conversation. "Games should have accessibility options" and "Games should have variable difficulty settings" are two incredibly different arguments, and the first plays on some deeply rooted ideals and Important Conversations in ways that kinda reek of bullshit. "Everybody should be able to play" and "Everybody should be able to beat the game without having to throw themselves at the wall so much" are two completely different lines of thought.
There is a difference between wanting text size options, colour blind options and so on, and wanting a dev to add multiple difficulties to a game that had it's whole niche carved by only providing one difficulty. Nobody is against the former, acting like anyone here is is really fucking disingenuous.
And yes, these games have more going for it than difficulty. But that quote I responded to shows they know exactly why their games became that popular in the first place.
Lmfao, welcome to the club!
This is such bullshit and is exactly the kind of "talking over" points that continue to muck up the conversation which ignores all of the well reasoned arguments for why adding difficulty setting would indeed compromise core experiences of the game. Whether or not you think its worthwhile to change those aspects is a different conversation but saying any argument that lays out why this would interfere with the core experience with the game as being disingenuous is, well, disingenuous.I disagree. They're intrinsically linked; there is no hard line of "well this person has a ADA-recognized mental disability" or "age 16 is when you are old enough to handle a game of this difficulty".
When I say games should be accessible, I mean they should be accessible to anyone who wants to play them and have fun. For instance, some people have slow reaction time. Like, physically, using a test that just flashes the color red and asks the person to hit a button as fast as they can. This is *not a disability* in any normally recognized sense of the word, but for the purposes of Sekiro, it might as well be the same as someone with poor motor function in their hand, or whatever. Others don't have the specific types of intelligence that lets them focus on a wide number of things at once, or spatial reasoning, or whatever. Brains are complex and it's not anyone's fault if they're just baseline worse than others.
The point of accessibility to let people who ordinarily couldn't experience the game the way it was designed (for a very specific band of skill level; if you're above that band or below it, you're not getting the stated purpose of "overcoming great hardship and then succeeding") enjoy it anyway. And while there are game and situations where changing the difficulty means a *wild* amount of work, a twitch game is not one of them; Matt Thorson managed to add in Assist Mode at the LAST GODDAMN SECOND andhe either did it himself or with maybe one other engineer.
Every argument saying From Software *can't* add difficulty settings without compromising the core, original experience are disingenuous nonsense. Any argument saying they don't want to is fine, but I do think it limits their audience.
Their entire success is based on it. Their entire community is based on the fact that everyone had to face the same challenges in the game, the fact that you could summon someone whenever you wanted instead of not being able to because they played on a different difficulty.Shit noone I know plays them for the difficulty, me included. I know.many who have quit because of the difficulty. I like the weighted feel of the strikes, enemy and world design. Music and the combat is amazing. I am a die hard fan but options would not harm this game in my opinion. If you need to be validated by playing something difficult you can do that in most games on the hardest difficulty.
I said "sorta" because it was not intentionally discriminating, but there was some discrepancy and misunderstanding in what people were really asking for in all the "accessibility" arguments earlier this year. The quote I found is from 2018, but I remember he said something similar as a response to the accessibility criticisms after Sekiro was out.That's... a perfectly fine design philosphy?
All this shows me is that they understand how their games got this big and why they had such an impact on the industry.
"Ableist speech", really?
And more importantly, please show me all these games that can be completed by everyone, because somehow Fromsoft is the only dev on this planet worthy of criticism regarding accesibilty.
There are no well-reasoned arguments for why adding a difficulty setting would compromise core experiences of the game, because the core experience of the game would be untouched. If the player "can't resist", that's their problem, not the developer's. This is, again, like arguing against the existence of bumpers in bowling lanes because you don't think you'd be able to resist using them.This is such bullshit and is exactly the kind of "talking over" points that continue to muck up the conversation which ignores all of the well reasoned arguments for why adding difficulty setting would indeed compromise core experiences of the game. Whether or not you think its worthwhile to change those aspects is a different conversation but saying any argument that lays out why this would interfere with the core experience with the game as being disingenuous is, well, disingenuous.
I'm not going to bother arguing with someone who clearly either hasn't read the arguments for why the core experience would be different or if youre just being one of those disingenuous posters who pretend they werent made but a game that has an always online mode that effects other players and the core experience would in fact be altered. Whether or not you think it matters that that would be effected with the difficulty selection is besides the argument being made that nothing would change from it.There are no well-reasoned arguments for why adding a difficulty setting would compromise core experiences of the game, because the core experience of the game would be untouched. If the player "can't resist", that's their problem, not the developer's. This is, again, like arguing against the existence of bumpers in bowling lanes because you don't think you'd be able to resist using them.
Celeste has already shown that adding in those functions doesn't in any capacity ruin the game's natural challenge for players who enjoy it.
Darn, you could have really educated me and these poor other shmucks who know nothing about game design and haven't *personally* done difficulty balancing on numerous titles!I'm not going to bother arguing with someone who clearly either hasn't read the arguments for why the core experience would be different or if youre just being one of those disingenuous posters who pretend they werent made but a game that has an always online mode that effects other players and the core experience would in fact be altered. Whether or not you think it matters that that would be effected with the difficulty selection is besides the argument being made that nothing would change from it.
So because he brings it up and every other dev under the sun just...doesn't, makes this game more ripe for criticsm?I said "sorta" because it was not intentionally discriminating, but there was some discrepancy and misunderstanding in what people were really asking for in all the "accessibility" arguments earlier this year. The quote I found is from 2018, but I remember he said something similar as a response to the accessibility criticisms after Sekiro was out.
It is OK to defend a game with "it's not for everyone" argument, but when the director has to bring up everyone while it's surely not, that... is a problem.
But the From community's response was way more toxic. Artistic vision my ass.
If you think that makes you an authrority to come in with disingenuous arguments all the more power to you. Just don't be shocked when you get called for it.Darn, you could have really educated me and these poor other shmucks who know nothing about game design and haven't *personally* done difficulty balancing on numerous titles!
-Attacks that deleveled youThere is a difference between wanting text size options, colour blind options and so on, and wanting a dev to add multiple difficulties to a game that had it's whole niche carved by only providing one difficulty. Nobody is against the former, acting like anyone here is is really fucking disingenuous.
And yes, these games have more going for it than difficulty. But that quote I responded to shows they know exactly why their games became that popular in the first place. People demanding them to abandon that and acting like they know better than the devs is hilarious and sad at the same time.
If you're gonna try calling me out, try to actually make an argument so I can (easily) rebut them. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.If you think that makes you an authrority to come in with disingenuous arguments all the more power to you. Just don't be shocked when you get called for it.
Plenty of things change from each insteallment to the next. Do you know what always stays the same since over a decade? Exactly. Miyazaki aknowledges when he can improve on a plethora of things, and then acts on it. He very clearly stated, multiple times, that multiple difficulty settings is not one of these things, and his last 6 games or so underline that.-Attacks that deleveled you
-Enemies getting stronger when you die
-Spawning stronger enemies when you die
-Grinding for health items
These are things from Demon Souls that were all but removed when Dark Souls (their most popular game) came out. And judging by how well Dark Souls is received by everyone I would say people appreciated these changes and more people got to play the game because of them.
That's the thing people keep forgetting. From has ALREADY shown that they are willing to abandon and add certain difficulty concepts for the sake of appealing to different people with different tastes.
Their entire success is based on it. Their entire community is based on the fact that everyone had to face the same challenges in the game, the fact that you could summon someone whenever you wanted instead of not being able to because they played on a different difficulty.
The dev himself states this: "We don't want to include a difficulty selection because we want to bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment," Miyazaki said. "So we want everyone … to first face that challenge and to overcome it in some way that suits them as a player."
Why do you think you know better if it would do harm or not than the people making the game? This isn't about some game mechanic that could be improved, this is about the game itself, about how they approach their game design.
Nobody is talking about being validated. It doesn't even matter that much how hard these games actually are. What matters to the dev and a lot of players is that there is only one.
Most games on the hardest difficulty are inbalanced, unfun messes, because no dev has the time and resources to actually balance 5 different difficulties.