• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Xita

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,185
By this "artistic vision" logic, people should stop asking for a hard mode in pokemon as well.

By that logic, nobody should be allowedto criticize any game for being too easy, cause thats the "artistic vision".

Yup, you never see stuff like "artistic vision" parroted like gospel with easy games lacking a harder option. It's pretty well agreed that that's bad. But when they're only hard? Suddenly it's "artistic vision" and if they give you an easier option the game will lose "soul" lol
 

Elodes

Looks to the Moon
Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,231
The Netherlands
From Software can do what they like, but people are also free to criticize those choices. Artistic freedom is not a defense from criticism.
I'm always confused when I see this opinion. The same mechanism that gives you the freedom to criticise game design choices, gives others the freedom to criticise your criticism. A comment like yours sounds like it's trying to demarcate a space in which criticism is unilaterally valid and may itself not be criticized, but it's necessarily self-defeating.

Edit: I don't mean to come across as hostile! I genuinely would be interested in hearing what nontrivial consequences you think a comment like yours would have.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Where exactly do you find this mode in the game?

It's literally in the hub area, and it's not a ''mode'' it's a training dummy NPC inter-graded into the game world. It's a real character with real background story, long story short he's got an mysterious illness causing him unable to die.

From the sculptor's house, turn right and keep going, you will find an NPC, talk to him.
Hopefully your attention span can last long enough to finish the conversation.

And do you honestly think text tutorials are the best way for a new player to learn about things such as input buffering? It's fucking useless even for people who read it.

Text tutorials still at least explains the basic concepts, most people understands the combat system just fine in the tutorial level, look at the Twitch streamers and content creators on day one, they managed it just fine.

Even without the training dummy the game stills explains the combat system reasonably well.
 
Last edited:

Nestunt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,300
Porto, Portugal
Sekiro is my GOTY, but I wonder how many people who bought it and also consider it the best experience of the year, actually finished it.

The controls, animation and sounds are so satisfying that I can easily see it remaining in people's memories, more than the frustration of not being able to beat a certain boss.

Cinema, music albums or other commercial art doesn't face this problem as much. It's worth discussing it at least.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,315
You mean the text that only appears once on the screen that literally no one reads?
Speak for yourself. I read it. 'Cause, you know, I don't want to get frustrated by not knowing what I'm doing...
I'm talking something like DMC's void mode where you can experiment with a random grunt-type NPC to get familiar with the deflect, counter hit and deathblow mechanics. This game has a very good but unique combat system, which warrants a full tutorial mode in my opinion.
Is this a joke? That's exactly what Hanbei is all about, and he's almost impossible to miss.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Sekiro is my GOTY, but I wonder how many people who bought it and also consider it the best experience of the year, actually finished it.

My guess is all of them because almost everyone who quit the game hate it, even people who quit on Sword Saint say they hate it.

I've yet to met someone who quit the game and still say it's their GOTY.
 

White Glint

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,617
Like, From's entire thing for like 7 games now has been "They are fucking hard"
Bamco's marketing meme for Dark Souls really did a number on these games huh.

they're not hard. They just require a different approach than your old assassins creed or shadow of mordor. Anyone can beat these games if they played it by putting themselves in the main character's shoes.


You mean the text that only appears once on the screen that literally no one reads?
If you're too smart to read tutorials about brand new mechanics why are you even complaining? I'm not sure anyone can come up with an accessibility option for you.
 
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
Bamco's marketing meme for Dark Souls really did a number on these games huh.

they're not hard. They just require a different approach than your old assassins creed or shadow of mordor. Anyone can beat these games if they played it by putting themselves in the main character's shoes.

"Prepare to die" is a lot more eye catching than "Prepare to practice" though, lol :)
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,264
Why don't people ask for an Easy Mode in The Witness?

If all games were 'punishingly hard', I'd understand why everyone would want difficulty settings, but that simply isn't the case.

It's, what, seven games that are doing what they want to do. If it is too difficult or if you don't have the time to meet it's demands, it's okay to play something else.

I'd love to play EVE Online, but I don't have the time, skill or patience. I'm not gonna ever demand that they change core aspects of the game so that I can experience it; that would fundamentally alter the game. Instead, I'm just going to - brace yourselves - play something else.

Which is why I don't see asking for an Easy Mode in Souls games as criticism; it's more of a demand: "Why doesn't this game cater to me?!" Most games do.

It's better for the industry if there are niche games that cater to certain audiences alongside those that cater to all.

can't people accept these particular games for what they are?

"Prepare to die" is a lot more eye catching than "Prepare to practice" though, lol :)

That alliteration tho
 
Last edited:

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Why don't people ask for an Easy Mode in The Witness?
You only need seven of the eleven available lasers, which helps, as the game is non-linear, and not being able to clear a specific puzzle will not prevent you from beating the game.

However, from a design perspective, it is *far* easier to just lengthen a timing window to help gamers with poor twitch skills. You could theoretically offer easier puzzles, but these would require a *very* large additional development time, because all new puzzles (in the hundreds) would have to be designed and tested.

That said, if the Witness were to offer an easier mode for younger/less experienced/disabled players, GREAT! Why would I argue against that? Maybe Jonathan Blow didn't have the time or money, but if he did, of course I'd encourage it.

I'm not mad at From Software (though I think they would be well served to offer it). I'm mad at people acting like an option would ruin their experience or some shit because they can't keep from hitting the easy button. See earlier bowling analogy.
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,179
I've played and completed all From games except for Sekiro. The one thing I miss about Sekiro is that there is no multiplayer option. This used to be a way to make From games a lot more accessible to people who like the formula but at times found the games to be too tough.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
Bamco's marketing meme for Dark Souls really did a number on these games huh.

they're not hard. They just require a different approach than your old assassins creed or shadow of mordor. Anyone can beat these games if they played it by putting themselves in the main character's shoes.
Anyone can beat any game if they smash their head against them long enough.
That doesn't mean they are not hard
 

Matty H

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,107
From is successful at what they do and they don't need to change anything but if they made easier games they could potentially have a much larger audience.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,315
Are you a veteran game developer who knows what's important and how accessibility options affect game development? If not, you're passing off your opinion as fact.
It's pretty logical dude. Implementing difficulty settings is not trivial work. The more options, the more work, playtesting, etc. To give you an idea: how many indies do you know that have difficulty settings? I know of Cosmic Star Heroine and Fell Seal (and they're both turn-based, hmm), but most indies I played lately sure don't have it; Hollow Knight, Salt and Sanctuary, La-Mulana, Monster Boy, Indivisible, Sonic Mania, CrossCode, Kingdom Come, A Plague Tale.... hell even Cuphead (which has a training mode but it doesn't let you progress) don't have easy modes.

So clearly it's not trivial dev work and I don't blame a dev for not wanting to invest resources to implement those when it's not the focus of their game. Cool if they want to and can afford it, but yeah.
 

Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
Are you a veteran game developer who knows what's important and how accessibility options affect game development? If not, you're passing off your opinion as fact.
You don't have to be a veteran game developer to make such a statement when is pretty commonly know anything in game development takes time. He chose what he wanted to focus on and that's that. If you played Sekiro you would know why and readjustments would have to be made. But they decided not too and people have to respect that.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Bamco's marketing meme for Dark Souls really did a number on these games huh.

they're not hard. They just require a different approach than your old assassins creed or shadow of mordor. Anyone can beat these games if they played it by putting themselves in the main character's shoes.
I mean, you just need to approach it similarly to a fighting game. That's where many action combat games have their roots from back when Capcom took their knowledge of fighting games and made DMC. The Sekisoulborne games are slower though and more methodical but all of the basics of action combat games similar to DMC or Bayonetta, and other similar games are still there. It's all about paying attention and looking for tells, and not paying attention is what gets you killed.

For some that is hard. There is a level of patience required in learning and developing this skill set, especially if they've never played these type of games or genres before. There's also a level of rhythm required that plays into learning enemy patterns and how well you can adapt to the rhythm of your opponent.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
Not only difficult games but also non-multiplayer, non-competitive, single-player games. Those were supposed to be dead according to EA and Activision.
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,264
You only need seven of the eleven available lasers, which helps, as the game is non-linear, and not being able to clear a specific puzzle will not prevent you from beating the game.

There are optional areas in a Souls game that don't need to be completed. There is the option to co-op. There is usually a 'Disc One Nuke' available.

Point is, there aren't monthly threads asking for The Witness to have an Easy Mode. Why is that?

However, from a design perspective, it is *far* easier to just lengthen a timing window to help gamers with poor twitch skills. You could theoretically offer easier puzzles, but these would require a *very* large additional development time, because all new puzzles (in the hundreds) would have to be designed and tested.

That said, if the Witness were to offer an easier mode for younger/less experienced/disabled players, GREAT! Why would I argue against that? Maybe Jonathan Blow didn't have the time or money, but if he did, of course I'd encourage it.

I'm not mad at From Software (though I think they would be well served to offer it). I'm mad at people acting like an option would ruin their experience or some shit because they can't keep from hitting the easy button. See earlier bowling analogy.

You don't think he'd have to rework most of the game to accommodate that mode? What if that's not the game he wanted to make?

(also, me and my 6 year old play it together. She's even worked some out that I couldn't!)

Souls absolutely could have an Easy Mode, but they've decided against it countless times. Not every game has to satisfy everyone. There are a smorgasbord of other options out there that cater to everyone. Why is there such demand for this particular series to change?

Saying all games should have such an option is a call for homogeneity. It's like saying, I dunno, every David Lynch film should come with Cliff Notes or something because I should be able to understand it.

😂 Not the greatest analogy, but do you get where I'm coming from?
 
Last edited:

Steo

Member
Sep 28, 2018
826
Dublin, Ireland.
I'm happy for FromSoftware and congratulate them on a great piece of work, but I'm one of those who couldn't finish the game because of the difficulty.

No matter how hard I tried. I went back time and time again to try and finish but just couldn't. It was a shame because I love the feel and combat in the game.

Maybe I just learned that FromSoftware games aren't for me, but I can still appreciate a great game when I see it.
 

lucancel

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,379
Italy
Sekiro was eyeopener since It made me clear (bigger) all things i disliked in all previous from games i was a fan.
Repeat a boring road skipping enemies before receaching a boss? There
Multiple parts in the boss fights? There
Enemies surrounding the bosses just to make the boss annoying? There.
Farm Blood/emblems?there.
Than i understood with sekiro that most time was frustration and gave up at ape 2.0
That Is ok, i had more time and patience before with ds and bb and went above the annoying things they love to put on.
This time i did not. Tastes changes, new fans love to git gud. I loved exploration and setting not the games being difficulty.
Probably will skip elden ring and future from titles and that Is ok.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
It's pretty logical dude. Implementing difficulty settings is not trivial work. The more options, the more work, playtesting, etc. To give you an idea: how many indies do you know that have difficulty settings? I know of Cosmic Star Heroine and Fell Seal (and they're both turn-based, hmm), but most indies I played lately sure don't have it; Hollow Knight, Salt and Sanctuary, La-Mulana, Monster Boy, Indivisible, Sonic Mania, CrossCode, Kingdom Come, A Plague Tale.... hell even Cuphead (which has a training mode but it doesn't let you progress) don't have easy modes.

So clearly it's not trivial dev work and I don't blame a dev for not wanting to invest resources to implement those when it's not the focus of their game. Cool if they want to and can afford it, but yeah.
From Software has access to orders of magnitude more resources than any indie would, but to answer your question:

Celeste
Beat Saber
Just Shapes and Beats
Slay the Spire
Katana Zero
Heat Signature

Etc.

Point is, there aren't monthly threads asking for The Witness to have an Easy Mode. Why is that?
Because 1) The Witness, while popular, has probably sold one tenth of what Sekiro has sold, and 2) The non-linear nature of the game makes it so that fewer players just can't beat it. It also never *removes* progress and forces a player to redo the same section of the game, over and over. You simply calmly contemplate the puzzle, and you either eventually get it or you don't. It's a very placid game.

You don't think he'd have to rework most of the game to accommodate that mode? What if that's not the game he wanted to make?
I just said he would have to remake most of the game to accommodate Easy Mode, and I have no problem if he doesn't want to, but that anyone arguing that if he *did* include an Easy Mode it would somehow ruin the experience for others is an entitled crybaby.

"Bowling shouldn't have bumpers available for those of lower skill levels. Not every sport needs to be for everyone, and that's okay."

I'm gonna repeat this, over and over again.
 
Last edited:

Caspar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,402
UK
Game Maker's Toolkit can express the reasons why Dark Souls shouldn't have an easy mode much better than I can.



The most important thing is FromSoftware know very well they shouldn't include one, and never will, so any discussion is ultimately futile.
 

Deleted member 51789

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 9, 2019
3,705
Game Maker's Toolkit can express the reasons why Dark Souls shouldn't have an easy mode much better than I can.



The most important thing is FromSoftware know very well they shouldn't include one, and never will, so any discussion is ultimately futile.

The guy behind GMTK has since changed his opinion on this - check the pinned comment in the video you linked.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Game Maker's Toolkit can express the reasons why Dark Souls shouldn't have an easy mode much better than I can.



The most important thing is FromSoftware know very well they shouldn't include one, and never will, so any discussion is ultimately futile.

"I want players to overcome very difficult odds to achieve a feeling of success".

Sure, that's a wonderful design goal. But because players are of inherently different skill levels, this is a *fundamentally impossible thing* to achieve without difficulty levels (or theoretically, perfectly adaptive difficulty).

It's like asking everyone to train to benchpress 120 kg. Sure, a lot of people could do it, but it would take some *far* longer than others, and some couldn't do it at all, for any number of reasons. In fact, there's a subset of From Software players who aren't hitting this design goal at all because they're *too fucking good*, and they would be better served by an even harder setting.

The guy behind GMTK has since changed his opinion on this - check the pinned comment in the video you linked.
Also LOL
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,224
People complaining about From Soft's difficulty tells me that people don't sit down and think in how to approach in Soulsborne or Sekiro

Like you only ever have to kill enemies if your going through an area for the very first time and learn the layout.

And Sekiro, areas are much larger with the focus on stealth with most enemies being able to be one hit killed through stealth.

But somehow that's not enough.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
There is at least one pc mod that achieves this incredibly well. It is possible.

There are PC mods that are entire new games. Let's not use the whole breadth of PC mods as the standard of what is feasible within a normal development cycle.

Smooth difficulty curves outside of the introductory areas is overrated in my book. What matters is that there is a general curve that doesn't completely falter the further you go in.

I'm talking precisely about the general curve faltering. Dark Souls was a critical success but still had stuff like the Crystal Cave and the two Anor Londo black knight archers :P (and on the opposite side, Pinwheel).
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Game Maker's Toolkit can express the reasons why Dark Souls shouldn't have an easy mode much better than I can.



The most important thing is FromSoftware know very well they shouldn't include one, and never will, so any discussion is ultimately futile.

In the comment section.
tw9WOGG.png
 

Zonal Hertz

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
1,079
"Gatekeeping"... lol. It's just not the case. Honestly if it had an easy mode I'd probably go down to it and complete the game in a day and enjoy it half as much. From know too many people will do this. More power to them.
 

itchi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,287
If Souls games are too hard you go grind some levels until it becomes easier. Just because there isn't a difficulty option in the menu doesn't mean there isn't a way to make things easier.
 
They should implement other difficulties or at least the ability to level up like in Bloodborne, so untalented players like me have fun while playing. I even finished Sekiro but it was the worst experience I had in 2019, which makes it the worst game by far I've played this year.

Dying over one and the same enemy for like 50 times is just extremely terrible game design, there's no excuse for that.
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,264
Because 1) The Witness, while popular, has probably sold one tenth of what Sekiro has sold, and 2) The non-linear nature of the game makes it so that fewer players just can't beat it. It also never *removes* progress and forces a player to redo the same section of the game, over and over. You simply calmly contemplate the puzzle, and you either eventually get it or you don't. It's a very placid game.

I agree with 1) but not 2). There are plenty of people who have given up with it, progress blocked by a range of puzzles that they can't get past. That's okay too.

I just said he would have to remake most of the game to accommodate Easy Mode, and I have no problem if he doesn't want to, but that anyone arguing that if he *did* include an Easy Mode it would somehow ruin the experience for others is an entitled crybaby.

I would argue that "entitled crybaby" works both ways on this issue. "This game doesn't cater to me and should" seems pretty entitled, no?

"Bowling shouldn't have bumpers available for those of lower skill levels. Not every sport needs to be for everyone, and that's okay."
I'm gonna repeat this, over and over again.

Feel free to, but while I don't agree with bowling specifically, I do agree with the sentiment. The gaming landscape is more than broad enough to accommodate games for everyone AND that are niche. Why change the few niche ones...?
 

Deleted member 49611

Nov 14, 2018
5,052
well to be fair Sekiro is much easier and holds your hand more than soulsborne.
 

SprachBrooks

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,353
People complain about the difficulty insofar as it lacks accessibility options. I've accepted the games aren't for me in that regard — but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the skill that goes into playing the game — and of course, creating the game. Hopefully Ghost of Tsushima will offer a similar experience.

I'm guessing on PC there are mods that allow you to make the game easier?
 

Zombine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,231
I would argue that difficulty should never play a part in if a game is considered good or bad as long as the core gameplay mechanics and concepts lend themselves to that difficulty, and a clear learning curve is established that allows people to develop their skills and progress through the game. If it does these things well then of course it should be up for consideration.
 

Zok310

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,628
Well it had trash competition this year, and if it was not for it being a From game it would have got panned.
 

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
here's the thing for me: I legitimately believe that I personally enjoy the game more because of how little choice it gives me. I like that the game is "put up with me or don't play me." It make me enjoy the atmosphere more. Not to mention that not having to pick a difficulty option makes me enjoy the game a lot more since the design feels just right every time. I honestly find something very charming about it, plus love that the shared misery let's me talk to friends about it.

...that said, end of the day, if someone with worse disabilities than mine says "yo, I know you won't enjoy the game as much if this were changed but I can't enjoy it at fucking all without the changes" I'd be like "...yeah, fair dude. I'm down with the changes."

Like yeah I enjoy the game more for sort of making me adapt to it. I actively bounce off games that feel like they are designed so that no one can fail completing them. Buuuut like, I know first hand that disabilities suck so someone with more shit than I do honestly should get precedence over my personal tastes.

So I'm in the weird camp of "honestly enjoy the game more this way but I'm still down with changing it to be more inclusive."
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Sorry, not acceptable. They shouldn't be allowed to publish it.

The problem is that line of thinking can be apply to a lot of stuff. For example:

A game developer decides not to have subtitles in the games and want everything done through voice acting to better mimic a movie. Okay then, what about a person who is hearing impaired who would like to experience the game, but can't since they can't hear any of the voice lines? Are you just going to tell them 'the game just isn't for them and move on'?

Not saying difficult options is the same as the above, but making a game less accessible to others shouldn't be hand wave with 'artist vision'. Especially when we do have games that have given such options without turning the game into something it isn't.
 

Caspar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,402
UK
The guy behind GMTK has since changed his opinion on this - check the pinned comment in the video you linked.
Maybe so but I still agree with many of the reasons given for why an easy mode is unnecessary in FromSoftware games. Take Dark Souls 1 for example:

Having trouble killing things? Find the Drake sword and feel super powerful for the first quarter of the game.
Dying too easily and need more health? Farm the Bridge Wyvern for half an hour for XP and stick it into Vitality and double your health bar.
Can't beat a boss? Summon people to help you and just watch from afar whilst doing the applaud emote.

Along with things like back stabs, being able to aggro enemies out to fight one at a time, rings that give your perks for just about anything you might need, cheese strategies for most bosses in the game... They might not have included an overly simple difficulty select on the menu screen, but they always include dozens of user determinable difficulty options in all their games, and actually build them into the world itself.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
"Gatekeeping"... lol. It's just not the case. Honestly if it had an easy mode I'd probably go down to it and complete the game in a day and enjoy it half as much. From know too many people will do this. More power to them.
Sounds like a personal weakness to me.

I can't think of a single game that had a variety of difficulties that I started on "Hard" only to step down to "Medium" or "Easy" because some area for rough. I'm there to tough it out. Especially if there is a comment on the difficulty screen saying that Hard is "the developers intended difficulty" and/or a special reward (Skins, titles, Achievements, trophies, whatever) for beating it on harder difficulties. For me, that means that is what I'm playing. YMMV.