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Roytheone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,140
The only reason I had fun with sekiro was that I was playing on PC and could create my own Easy mode with cheat engine. Without that I would have bounced off very soon.

And on here there were legit people attacking me saying that I didn't deserve to have fun with the game if i used cheat engine. It was embarrassing.
 

silva1991

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,493
It's because of the quality of the game itself, nothing to do with difficulties. There's a magic from FromSoft touch that made it different from other games.

Difficulty is easily one of the selling points of Souls games and bigif not the biggest part of their popularity. It's why FROM named special edition of DS "prepare to die" edition. They know what their audience wants.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,586
From could lower mechanically difficulty while still keeping environmental and observational difficulty. Like say keeping encounters that are more about patience and caution, like the infamous skeleton kick encounter near the end of tomb of Giants. I feel like since 2 though this kind of difficult has lessened and mechanical difficulty has increase as the games have sped up.

To be fair, I really just want more videos of people being kicked into bottomless pits.
 

Mbolibombo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,043
Difficulty is also a part of accesibility so your caveat doesnt make much sense.

A game can still be great while difficult - Sekiro in this case, but it can also be even greater if accesible to more people. An easier mode doesnt take away anything from the players that doesnt want it to be easier.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,321
Again, If it's the studio's vision to make a singular m, difficult experience for all to experience and overcome, I'm okay with it.

Also, if it's a studio's vision to make a game with difficulty and "accessibility" (in quotation marks because this word this thrown around in place of "difficult" in too many situations) settings.. I'm also okay with it.

There are so many fucking great games releasing every month. Stop wasting your time on games that don't vibe with you just so you can be "part of the conversation."
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I don't think the challenge behind these games disappears when you think about accessibility options. Notice that so far I haven't said anything about an easy mode. Take the options Celeste has, for example. By nature, disabled people already have it hard. Similar options that Celeste has would only make it playable.

Disabled people like challenges in games, too. That's why a variety of options related to game speed and other stuff instead of an easy mode is part of the solution. Again, using the same argument as before: does anyone think that enabling those settings in Celeste make it a subgame? Of course not. It's just offering disabled people a chance to experience a game known for its challenge. I think they'd be happy to say they've beaten Sekiro without making it easy for them. They've managed to overcome another challenge in their lives. That's huge.
I can tell you right now that people will debate you about how such accessibility features could change how the game is made because those options are there for anyone to use and abuse, and could diminish what the games offer. And they will tell you about the legacy of these games and why its difficulty is paramount to its success. They will also tell you that these games are about overcoming barriers, which is true, but also the dumbest argument because all games are about overcoming barriers. Difficulty is by definition a barrier, but what is easy for some is hard for others, and what is hard from some may simply be impossible for others. Few in this thread seem to understand that difficulty is subjective, or that accessibility is meant to equalize and help adjust and fix the mismatch between physical and mental impairment and barrier. Or it's that they simply don't want to listen and or don't care that someone who would love to play these challenging games cannot do so. The only accessibility that ever seems to get agreed upon in these types of threads is options for colorblindness, difficult of hearing/deafness, better subtitling, the basic stuff that should be a standard in all games.
 
Oct 3, 2019
837
I don't really care if they add an easy mode to their games, I wouldn't choose it if they did.

But at this point I want it to happen just to piss off the nerds who get super defensive at the mere suggestion.
 

Ryo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,523
People that get their ass handed to them by this game and then try to speak on behalf of some hypothetical disabled person to justify lowering the difficulty disgust me.
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
Literally only time i ever saw that notion was when Gamespot used it to lower Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze's score

Now, limiting a game to only one difficulty setting is bullshit and this game winning the GOTY has nothing to do with it.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
People that get their ass handed to them by this game and then try to speak on behalf of some hypothetical disabled person to justify lowering the difficulty disgust me.
The entire OP is based on a strawman and no one has done that. If anyone has asked for an easy mode it has largely been on the behalf of themselves.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
People that get their ass handed to them by this game and then try to speak on behalf of some hypothetical disabled person to justify lowering the difficulty disgust me.
People who try and justify elitist gatekeeping disgust *me*.

"Bowling is about persevering and learning to bowl strikes consistently, and that takes time, and practice. If I had bumpers available to me, I would just use them. Bowling alleys shouldn't make bumpers available because it ruins the experience for real bowlers who want to take the time to really play bowling like it was meant to be played. Not all sports are for everyone, and that's a good thing."

That is how dumb this fucking argument is. I should just head off to bed, this is making me mad.
 
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Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I would be fine if From put an easy mode in their games. I don't expect them to do so. But accessibility options would be very good, things like a game speed adjustment and parry time adjustment as individual sliders or percentages can go a long way in reaching players who are normally forced to wait for accessibility mods to play these kinds of games.
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
"This game isn't for everyone" wouldn't be gatekeeping bullshit if it genuinely affected your experience with the game. If it does not...if the original experience is still there, untarnished...it's gatekeeping. Plain and simple. It's "fuck you got mine" in videogame form.

I just... don't agree, sorry. There definitely is a lot of gatekeeping in the gaming/"nerd culture" world that needs better addressing, but I do not think games being designed with a target audience in mind is gatekeeping. I do not expect Nintendo to ever add real difficulty options to their games, and that's fine; I'm not the target audience. I can still get some enjoyment out of the product, but it's not as fun for me as it is for younger people. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Would I like them to cater to me? Yeah, sure, who wouldn't? This thread is full of people making that argument. But I'm not being "gate-kept" or personally attacked just because the game wasn't made in way that's easier for me to enjoy.

I DO think there should be a much bigger industry-wide focus on making things more accessible for disabled people - Microsoft has already started going down this road with their special controller - but that's out of the scope of this discussion.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
I just... don't agree, sorry. There definitely is a lot of gatekeeping in the gaming/"nerd culture" world that needs better addressing, but I do not think games being designed with a target audience in mind is gatekeeping. I do not expect Nintendo to ever add real difficulty options to their games, and that's fine; I'm not the target audience. I can still get some enjoyment out of the product, but it's not as fun for me as it is for younger people. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Would I like them to cater to me? Yeah, sure, who wouldn't? This thread is full of people making that argument. But I'm not being "gate-kept" or personally attacked just because the game wasn't made in way that's easier for me to enjoy.

I DO think there should be a much bigger industry-wide focus on making things more accessible for disabled people - Microsoft has already started going down this road with their special controller - but that's out of the scope of this discussion.
To be clear, I don't think From Software is gatekeeping. I don't love their decision, but ultimately it's their call.

Nerds who are saying an easy difficulty level would ruin their time with the game and therefore it shouldn't be included and they should just "git gud" *is* gatekeeping, however. It's obnoxious.
 

Augemitbutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,290
Zacmortar isn't wrong about artistic vision. On this forum and the previous for years now and in many enthusiast forums and circles, the only time artistic vision ever, ever, comes into an argument is in regards to anime titties or game difficulty. Rarely is artistic vision discussed in such heated debate except for those two things.
Okay. It's apparent how certain people happily rate you as some raunchy villain just because you like a certain type of game. I see people people on the first pages also still pretend that nobody ever tried to change the game in their head completely to fit their tastes. Nobody is ever against controls customization and similar additions, we had like 5 threads with the same results. For the rest you have to sit down and actually play the game and put some effort in like everyone else or move on. FS isn't changing anytime soon and that's great. We need more games of this quality, not less. I'm sure you can find something else to play in those 99%.
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
To be clear, I don't think From Software is gatekeeping. I don't love their decision, but ultimately it's their call.

Nerds who are saying an easy difficulty level would ruin their time with the game and therefore it shouldn't be included *is* gatekeeping, however. It's obnoxious.

I assume the main concern there would be that multiple difficulty options may affect game-wide balance, due to spending more time trying to fine-tune each mode, moving encounters around, etc. There is no real way to prove that case, but there's no real way to disprove it either. It's an easy go-to that can be used any time this is brought up.
 

StayHandsome

Member
Nov 30, 2017
754
Difficulty is also a part of accesibility so your caveat doesnt make much sense.

A game can still be great while difficult - Sekiro in this case, but it can also be even greater if accesible to more people. An easier mode doesnt take away anything from the players that doesnt want it to be easier.

it takes away a lot from the game, and the argument that the quality isn't diluted by the existence of an easy mode is why this discussion goes nowhere.

proponents of an easy mode should be upfront about what it means. You're making a trade: you're increasing it's accessibility and simultaneously eroding some of its charm.

pretending that nothing is lost, only gained is myopic and frustrating to constantly encounter.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
I assume the main concern there would be that multiple difficulty options may affect game-wide balance, due to spending more time trying to fine-tune each mode, moving encounters around, etc. There is no real way to prove that case, but there's no real way to disprove it either. It's an easy go-to that can be used any time this is brought up.
This is brought up a lot, and I have no issue with putting nearly all the dev time into tuning the original difficulty. But to act like lengthening the parry window or decreasing the health is some herculean task always comes off as disingenuous to me.

I know how hard tuning difficulties is, but because this is twitch gameplay, making that more forgiving seems very easy to me.
 

Mbolibombo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,043
it takes away a lot from the game, and the argument that the quality isn't diluted by the existence of an easy mode is why this discussion goes nowhere.

proponents of an easy mode should be upfront about what it means. You're making a trade: you're increasing it's accessibility and simultaneously eroding some of its charm.

pretending that nothing is lost, only gained is myopic and frustrating to constantly encounter.

Pretending anything is lost with more modes is myopic and frustrating to constantly encounter.

But the ego and self esteem of Gamers is not to be toyed with.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
You mean like Sekiro?
I was playing through this game 2 weeks ago for the first time and didn't have the slightest fucking clue of what the posture bar represented until I got stuck on Lady Butterfly. After a lot of googling I finally learned that I'd been cheesing all this time and didn't know anything about the combat. So, no. Not like Sekiro.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I just... don't agree, sorry. There definitely is a lot of gatekeeping in the gaming/"nerd culture" world that needs better addressing, but I do not think games being designed with a target audience in mind is gatekeeping. I do not expect Nintendo to ever add real difficulty options to their games, and that's fine; I'm not the target audience. I can still get some enjoyment out of the product, but it's not as fun for me as it is for younger people. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Would I like them to cater to me? Yeah, sure, who wouldn't? This thread is full of people making that argument. But I'm not being "gate-kept" or personally attacked just because the game wasn't made in way that's easier for me to enjoy.

I DO think there should be a much bigger industry-wide focus on making things more accessible for disabled people - Microsoft has already started going down this road with their special controller - but that's out of the scope of this discussion.
On that last sentence. I do agree. Though something to keep in mind is that physical and mental disability is a very broad spectrum. The hardware end definitely needs some attention and I love what Microsoft has been doing there and making that controller (stuff like this has been long overdue). But hardware is also just one end of the spectrum, the software side also needs to be looked at and addressed as well. I'm hoping that overtime we'll see options that will go beyond what we know the basics of accessibility to be, because we need to go beyond the basics of understanding of accessibility. Not only are audio and visual accessibility options important, but video games are very unique overall and require a heavy amount of the players input, and that needs to be looked at on ways to improve options. Any options can go a long way into helping someone.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I was playing through this game 2 weeks ago for the first time and didn't have the slightest fucking clue of what the posture bar represented until I got stuck on Lady Butterfly. After a lot of googling I finally learned that I'd been cheesing all this time and didn't know anything about the combat. So, no. Not like Sekiro.

lol pretty sure you didn't even read the tutorial, which literally pauses the game for you to read.
 

R.T Straker

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
I was playing through this game 2 weeks ago for the first time and didn't have the slightest fucking clue of what the posture bar represented until I got stuck on Lady Butterfly. After a lot of googling I finally learned that I'd been cheesing all this time and didn't know anything about the combat. So, no. Not like Sekiro.

It's explained in the game multiple times how the posture system works.

The game has tutorials for pretty much every one of it's major gameplay mechanics. They're prompted too so it's impossible to actually miss them.
 

Mocha

Member
Dec 9, 2017
925
The game is design to be hard they put their time and budget to make it hard. Adding an easy mode would be a waste of time. The whole point of the game is to die over and over again. The game over is the design and that's okay to not like that gameplay.

If you want more options, then the game should make its loading time better to give you a better experience but making it easier ruins the flow of the game.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Okay. It's apparent how certain people happily rate you as some raunchy villain just because you like a certain type of game. I see people people on the first pages also still pretend that nobody ever tried to change the game in their head completely to fit their tastes. Nobody is ever against controls customization and similar additions, we had like 5 threads with the same results. For the rest you have to sit down and actually play the game and put some effort in like everyone else or move on. FS isn't changing anytime soon and that's great. We need more games of this quality, not less. I'm sure you can find something else to play in those 99%.
I am mentally disabled and rarely leave my house. I get disability checks once a month that I use to get clothes, groceries, and at least 1 hobby item that is equivalent to the price of a full priced game. I can beat hard games without too much issue, I've beaten F-zero GX in very hard difficulty and I consider that a very major achievement with how insane that game is with its difficulty and requiring near absolute precision in its story mode. I also would like the industry to do better regarding accessibility.

Do I pass your test?
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I mean, they can do as they like and regardless they got my money but I went from really enjoying Sekiro to pretty much loathing it given that I couldn't grind out stats the way I could in games like Souls and Bloodborne.

The Souls games are tough but fair in that regard. Sekiro just felt like it was difficult for the sake of it without the benefit of being able to grind your way out of a jam. I've got better things to do than fight the same boss a dozen times because the game decided it was like Souls in some ways but entirely unlike it in others for the sake of inflating difficulty.

It's a great game in so many ways but once it started feeling more like a job than a game I personally tapped out.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
What "difficulty equals bad" notion are you talking about?
Is this a joke?

2Hv4bbb.png


People want more accessibility options so more people can play those games, nothing else.

Like, From's entire thing for like 7 games now has been "They are fucking hard"
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
lol pretty sure you didn't even read the tutorial, which literally pauses the game for you to read.
You mean the text that only appears once on the screen that literally no one reads? I'm talking something like DMC's void mode where you can experiment with a random grunt-type NPC to get familiar with the deflect, counter hit and deathblow mechanics. This game has a very good but unique combat system, which warrants a full tutorial mode in my opinion.
 

Augemitbutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,290
I am mentally disabled and rarely leave my house. I get disability checks once a month that I use to get clothes, groceries, and at least 1 hobby item that is equivalent to the price of a full priced game. I can beat hard games without too much issue, I've beaten F-zero GX in very hard difficulty and I consider that a very major achievement with how insane that game is with its difficulty and requiring near absolute precision in its story mode. I also would like the industry to do better regarding accessibility.

Do I pass your test?

i didn't test anybody, just talking in general.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
You mean the text that only appears once on the screen that literally no one reads? I'm talking something like DMC's void mode where you can experiment with a random grunt-type NPC to get familiar with the deflect, counter hit and deathblow mechanics. This game has a very good but unique combat system, which warrants a full tutorial mode in my opinion.

Sekiro has THAT too 🤦

Also it's not the game's fault that you didn't bother reading the tutorial on screen.

Sekiro has more than enough tutorial system to a point where I think it's being too generous, but I guess people like you exist.
Are you one of those people who played BOTW for 100 hours but still don't know how to parry?
 

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,661
Philadelphia, PA
Pretending anything is lost with more modes is myopic and frustrating to constantly encounter.

But the ego and self esteem of Gamers is not to be toyed with.

I said something similar but someone wrote my statement off with some bad faith argument acting like I was speaking as if I knew more then the devs.

Yet we have a dev in this very thread arguing against the same things. Interesting, no?
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,377
The game honestly isn't that difficult, but if you play it like Dark Souls/Bloodborne & R1 spam & sometimes dodge, your gonna have a bad time.
I think From could have done a way better job explaining the mechanics, i don't think they realised through play testing that soulsbourne players were going to try to play it pretty much the wrong way.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
I don't think From Software owes anyone multiple difficulties. They should stick to doing their thing.
Agreed. Let them deliver their vision how they see fit. They're selling a product and if they don't want to compromise they don't have to. Just don't buy it.

I think there's a ton to be said for the shared experience that souls game brings. Knowing that people experienced the same thing you did, overcame the same obstacles is part of its magic.
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
By this "artistic vision" logic, people should stop asking for a hard mode in pokemon as well.

By that logic, nobody should be allowedto criticize any game for being too easy, cause thats the "artistic vision".
 

Spartan IV

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
100
Literally the game has options to improve and be better combat after combat. That's the "accessibility" in From Software's way. They build their game as they want, with his own rules. I don't think why they have to include an "easy mode". That's not FS.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
Sekiro has THAT too 🤦

Also it's not the game's fault that you didn't bother reading the tutorial on screen.
Where exactly do you find this mode in the game? And do you honestly think text tutorials are the best way for a new player to learn about things such as input buffering? It's fucking useless even for people who read it.
 

R.T Straker

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
Where exactly do you find this mode in the game? And do you honestly think text tutorials are the best way for a new player to learn about things such as input buffering? It's fucking useless even for people who read it.

> Complains about the lack of tutorials and blames the game for not explaining mechanics.

Game has prompted tutorials explaining every single mechanic in the game, multiple times.

> Dissmises that with ''Nobody reads them'', proceeds then to complain the game doesn't have a training mode NPC that you can practice the game's systems and mechanics with.

Game has exactly that.

Resetera.gif
 

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,661
Philadelphia, PA
The game honestly isn't that difficult, but if you play it like Dark Souls/Bloodborne & R1 spam & sometimes dodge, your gonna have a bad time.
I think From could have done a way better job explaining the mechanics, i don't think they realised through play testing that soulsbourne players were going to try to play it pretty much the wrong way.

I don't think it wouldn't have mattered either way. FROM made the point it wasn't a Souls game and closer to Tenchu in design and folks disregarded and wanted to be adamant in trying to push it as a Souls game and playing like one backfired in a similar fashion.
 
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
The game honestly isn't that difficult, but if you play it like Dark Souls/Bloodborne & R1 spam & sometimes dodge, your gonna have a bad time.
I think From could have done a way better job explaining the mechanics, i don't think they realised through play testing that soulsbourne players were going to try to play it pretty much the wrong way.

Name of the game has always been to adapt, same thing when going from Souls to Bloodborne. Sekiro is actually the game that was most explicit about explaining players how to play compared to any of their previous games.
 

jaymzi

Member
Jul 22, 2019
6,541
Most games I play that have multiple difficulty options aren't that well balanced. They are either too easy or too hard for the first playthrough.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
> Complains about the lack of tutorials and blames the game for not explaining mechanics.

Game has prompted tutorials explaining every single mechanic in the game, multiple times.

> Dissmises that with ''Nobody reads them'', proceeds then to complain the game doesn't have a training mode NPC that you can practice the game's systems and mechanics with.

Game has exactly that.

Resetera.gif
Nice meme arrows.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
At one point yall gotta accept that the difficulty is part of the brand and without it the games would possibly not sell that well