Id like a Zelda like that but I also don't buy a Zelda game thinking I'm owed that experience.
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Sekiro success, sales, and winning Game of the Year is a huge strike against the "difficulty equals bad" notion
- Thread starter CenturionNami
- Start date
Yes, because they are in a different genre than Souls. That's what I'm saying. They for example don't have to regard their leveldesign in their difficulty at all. In Souls games its integral part of that. They put thought into at what point finding a new bonfire is rewarding but still fair to find between gauntlets of enemies, which are also placed in a deliberate fashion.
Just making you auto kill everything would completely invalidate one of their core design principles in regard to level and encounter design.
DMC and Bayo don't have to worry about any of that shit.
You saying these games didn't suffer from these modes is totally cool, but then saying Souls wouldn't suffer from it either is conjecture on your part and clearly contrary to what the devs think. Not the fans, the devs, as evidenced by a decade of their game design.
You can be fine with whatever you want. It's privelege though if you can't understand/give people shit if they do have a problem with it.
I think the main thing behind the argument for some accessibility options in Sekiro is that there isn't a clear reason for them to not add in something. What is unclear, however, is how they would go about adding these options. I think what gets many people so heated about this topic is that difficulty, for better or worse, is at the core of each Souls game's identity, so certainly some fans will get wary over the idea of something altering their own experience with these games or someone's experience deviating from their own. However, I don't think difficulty options or an accessibility option somehow deviates from an artist's vision, and knowing Miyazaki/From Soft, I'm sure they'd label the normal experience as the "Intended vision" somewhere in game.
The idea of adjusting sliders for things like parry time or damage numbers is interesting, but the game would lose the regulated difficulty scaling they are used to. In addition, if you make the game significantly easier by some method, are players less likely to appreciate movesets of certain bosses or intricacies of combat? Perhaps, but there are still elements of the game that can be appreciated. From games have extremely strong enemy and visual design that can be appreciated by many, so if someone may not normally be able to experience the game, they could at least experience what they can. I imagine it as something like a person who is deaf for example really enjoying a movie, but perhaps not appreciating something like it's sound design.
I do think artistic vision matters, and I do think playing a game in as controlled a setting as possible to what the developers intended may lead to the strongest connection to a game, but there will always be something someone can take away from a game, even if it doesn't necessarily meet exactly what the devs were intending.
The idea of adjusting sliders for things like parry time or damage numbers is interesting, but the game would lose the regulated difficulty scaling they are used to. In addition, if you make the game significantly easier by some method, are players less likely to appreciate movesets of certain bosses or intricacies of combat? Perhaps, but there are still elements of the game that can be appreciated. From games have extremely strong enemy and visual design that can be appreciated by many, so if someone may not normally be able to experience the game, they could at least experience what they can. I imagine it as something like a person who is deaf for example really enjoying a movie, but perhaps not appreciating something like it's sound design.
I do think artistic vision matters, and I do think playing a game in as controlled a setting as possible to what the developers intended may lead to the strongest connection to a game, but there will always be something someone can take away from a game, even if it doesn't necessarily meet exactly what the devs were intending.
works for some games, not for others. Sekiro's particular brand of game design would take considerable effort, I think.
I also dont think it works well in the opposite direction, most games I enjoy are a drag to play in harder difficulties because its not well designed, they become cheap kills or cheating AI.
I think a "cinematic option" is perfectly fine, hell I even like "easy" mode as free DLC six months after launch. Either way if FROMS next game has 5 options I wont care that much but I do have a preference and do have a strong opinion that polishing one experience is much better than using math (which you said yourself was not elegant and I agree but just to keep it brief)
It doesn't work in the other direction because there's no incentive to not use a bell that makes it easier. It might as well be a damage upgrade or a level up.
You don't play if you suck. I know, I was on the team in middle/high school and I sucked and I rode the bench all the time. Using shortcuts or cheats in a puzzle game doesn't help you solve puzzles. Not all cars are automatic transmission.
So yea, I still suck at those things. It's cool though, I don't play sports anymore, I have an automatic car and I avoid puzzle games!
Playing Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order made me appreciate Sekiro's single difficulty setting (not counting in-game modifiers like the Demon Bell / Kuro's charm), ironically enough. It's great for others that they could enjoy the game on lower difficulties, of course. But for me, personally, it dampened my experience, since the difficultly settings weren't balanced all that well: at some point I struggled on Grandmaster from dying in 2 hits to everything, lowered it to Jedi Master, but then it was so poorly balanced that it was a complete breeze, and I eventually regretted lowering it and put it back on Grandmaster. If I had known how easy the game would be on Jedi Master I wouldn't have switched, but yeah.
It really goes to show that adding difficulty settings is absolutely not trivial dev work at all. It requires lots of fine-tuning, calibrating, and playtesting, and you gotta multiply that by however many settings you offer... And what if even on the easiest setting it's still too hard for some? Or still too easy on the hardest setting, like some games I played -- Kingdoms of Amalur, anyone?
And that's not even considering how complicated it gets when you involve online multiplayer (which Sekiro doesn't, no, but Souls games definitely will, as will Elden Ring).
So yeah, it's not that simple, and if FromSoft wants to continue doing their thing and spend their dev resources to polish up their game in other areas, instead of spending it implementing various difficulty settings, then personally, I'm all for FromSoft doing what they do best. ^^
It really goes to show that adding difficulty settings is absolutely not trivial dev work at all. It requires lots of fine-tuning, calibrating, and playtesting, and you gotta multiply that by however many settings you offer... And what if even on the easiest setting it's still too hard for some? Or still too easy on the hardest setting, like some games I played -- Kingdoms of Amalur, anyone?
And that's not even considering how complicated it gets when you involve online multiplayer (which Sekiro doesn't, no, but Souls games definitely will, as will Elden Ring).
So yeah, it's not that simple, and if FromSoft wants to continue doing their thing and spend their dev resources to polish up their game in other areas, instead of spending it implementing various difficulty settings, then personally, I'm all for FromSoft doing what they do best. ^^
Nah I'm with you. I don't think it's any more selfish than those demanding alternate settings. People want what they want, you can never please everyone and that's OK.
There's no incentive not to use bumpers in bowling, lower the rim height in basketball, enter in cheat codes, or ever do something other than it being as easy as possible, then.
Celeste has an assist mode; the only consequence to using it is a tiny little stamp is put on your save file. That's more than enough. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, but for a ton of people, it made the game vastly more enjoyable and brought a ton of happiness into the world.
What constitutes "giving people shit" over it? Is saying that maybe the game simply isn't designed for people who don't enjoy a very high difficulty level privilege? Is there a moral obligation to make every game for everybody?
It most definitely is. Saying I've beaten Sekiro 3 times, including Bell Demon debuff and playing with Kuro's Charm debuff, seems to give recognition, but nobody cares when I say I've beaten KH3 on a level 1 run at highest difficulty, despite the latter being so much more challenging.
Someone here asked a good question. Do you think every artist in this world needs to do a second set of their paintings for colorblind people because in 99.9% of cases they can't apprechiate the originals? Are people saying no to that privileged?
I'm not the one telling them they are SOL, I'm not making the game. I suck really, really bad at puzzle games. I would not in a lifetime be able to solve The Witness, which I think looks super cool. Trust me, I tried.
I won't ask or even demand from the devs to implement easier puzzles for me.
Disagree. Look at recent Nintendo titles like New Super Mario Bros or Captain Toad. If you do several times on a particular level, they give you something like an invincibility mushroom so you can play through the level without taking any damage. Was there any in-game incentive for me not to use the mushroom? No, but did I use it? Of course not, because I knew that that wasn't the way the level was intended to be played. You can accessibility options like that there, and still have a large group of players not use it.
Same. I gave up on Cuphead because it was too hard. It's a great game, just not for me.
"I personally don't like doing things unless I'm good at hell at them and clearly all other people also feel this way"
Also, an automatic car is easy mode, git gud, if you want to drive a car you should have to master it
please don't dare to tell me what i do and don't fucking care about and pretend this is some conspiracy against From. i'm disabled. i care about accessibility. in all games. i often raise it as an issue and i was just having this exact same discussion on Discord a few days ago about another game and someone said "why do people only care about raising accessibility for this game and no other games!!!!!" and wow, i'm raising it for this game as well!!!! amazing
"we should have accessibility options, but actually... not really, and people who complain about it need to git gud lolzzzz"
buzz off. i'm disabled. one of my friends has motor issues and she can't even play games like this. i care about accessibility (and yes, having some degree of difficulty options makes games easier for many disabled people no matter what anyone says) because i genuinely fucking care and don't you dare suggest i have an ulterior motive.
this has nothing to do with me disliking From games or disliking their difficulty. i beat Sekiro the week it came out, i loved it, i love the difficulty, i love From games, i'm glad it's difficult, literally all I'm saying is that it should have (and bury it away in the settings like Uncharted idk) an option somewhere that increases damage dealt and reduces damage taken, as well as some other basic accessibility features. yes it would unbalance the game for people playing with that specific option checked but some people literally can't play them because of neurological issues but want to explore the atmosphere, environments, and lore and there's nothing wrong with that. and no one would be forced to use it. it would still be the same difficult experience for everyone else
god i'm so sick of this patronizing bullshit. being told as a disabled person that i don't actually care about accessibility and this is just an excuse to attack a developer whose games i love and enjoying playing is so offensive and frankly drives disabled people out of conversations where the games they love intersect with issues they care about.
Agreed. Not every book, movie or music genre is for everyone and that's fine.
There were certainly fights in Sekiro where I thought about giving up. If there were an option to decrease the difficulty would I have done it? And if I did, would I have felt the same feeling of accomplishment? I don't think so.
At the end of the day I'd rather experience the developer's intended design, and if I can't beat it then that's preferable to robbing myself of that experience.
No, but I've yet to hear a good reason why difficulty itself should be an obstacle to anyone playing a game.
No, but by your logic no one is allowed to touch a basketball if they can't play on NBA level then? And yeah, not all cars are automatic transmission, but they exist, you're still not proving your point. Should automatic transmission not exist because it's "learn stick, or don't drive"?
And I'm not even sure where your puzzle game comparison is coming from and what kind of puzzle games we are talking about. Games like Tetris and Puyo Puyo is already accessible to everyone. Riddle based games like 999 and Professor Layton has shortcuts that allows you to play for the story.
I'm ok with a Zelda game having a dark souls difficulty option, but not being a Dark Souls game, where you can't play unless you're hardcore enough. That's really elitism.
Personally I think 'owned that experience' is weird, it's people's money and people are free to explain why a game doesn't appeal to them or their wallet. It's very rare I've seen people say the game Has to have difficulty options, but instead they would prefer it so they could appreciate other aspects of the game, without the gate of the hardcore difficulty, which is totally fine preference. I haven't really tried those games (and I'm not too heartbroken), I would get too frustrated, but it sounds like they have some stunning worlds to get immersed in. A lot of the times it's just preferences, rather unlike... implying Zelda should alienate people who aren't hardcore enough, where just only one type of gamer can have the preference.
And that's totally fine if it's not a big deal for you. The whole problem is when someone is being dismissive of someone else, saying that something that matters to them shouldn't matter.
Can I choose a more violent version of a PG-rated film, then? Can I see an R-rated Home Alone that might fit my personal tastes better?
Would I be right to make multiple threads about Nintendo games being too easy/geared towards children? What if I want a harder difficulty in Mario Odyssey? Spoiler: No, I'm not allowed to do that, because people don't really care about choices.
I don't think every single piece of media needs to be consumable by every potential consumer. People are allowed to make things designed for certain groups/demographics.
How many millions of copies has this series sold now? Regardless of the "hardcore" Souls audience it is quite apparent from sales alone that consumers of these games are not just the hardcore crowd and players are indeed "getting gud" as the hardcore fanbase would tell them.
Because IF they weren't then I think FROM would have changed up its difficulty modus operandi by this point. Given that they haven't from my perspective at least it looks like FROM (and the players) are getting exactly the difficulty that they want.
Does anyone disagree or feel otherwise? I just feel like if it wasnt working FROM would have done something else by now. I really doubt they are not putting difficulty sliders into their games just to appease the "gitgud hardcore" crowd.
Because IF they weren't then I think FROM would have changed up its difficulty modus operandi by this point. Given that they haven't from my perspective at least it looks like FROM (and the players) are getting exactly the difficulty that they want.
Does anyone disagree or feel otherwise? I just feel like if it wasnt working FROM would have done something else by now. I really doubt they are not putting difficulty sliders into their games just to appease the "gitgud hardcore" crowd.
I know we were just disagreeing before, but I totally agree with you here. Sorry if the wires got crossed at all
People aren't owed multiple difficulty levels just because they paid for a game.
If they weren't extremely successful, then it's likely these games would have difficulty options. The other possibility is that From would have moved onto some other game framework for a new series.
The difficulty of the series is what shaped the community around it. People knew that others were struggling, same as them, and a community of fans formed with that knowledge. Giving the games an easier option dilutes that. And it's not like you have to finish them to be a part of the community. I haven't beat Sekiro and I'm beginning to doubt that I'm going to because the Demon of Hatred has been wrecking me for days (though the Guardian Ape made me give up for months). I still consider myself a fan. I don't feel like less of a Sekiro fan because I can't finish the game.
I also just disagree the idea that people are owed and accessible difficulty option. To me, that's like expecting a David Lynch film to come with a handy guide to the symbolism used in the film. It's okay to make games to target a specific audience.
I doubt comparing Sekiro with bowling and basketball will get us anywhere, but my point still stands. There's no reason for me to force myself to not take advantage of tools a game is providing me with, just to make it harder just for the sake of it.
I haven't played Celeste so I can't comment on it unfortunately!
To be clear, I was referring to a bell that you presumably can use immediately and indefinitely. Not a smaller, temporary assist that is granted once you die repeatedly, which I personally don't mind in general--but I mean, it all depends on what it is and how it's implemented.
From are one of the few devs that can release a game where the majority don't make it halfway and walk away not completely hating it.
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Yeah imagine wanting to be able to play a game you spent up to 60 bucks for.
People only agree with this when the game is easy, like Pokemon or Mario. You're right, of course, but it's funny to see the differing reactions here when the scales are flipped.
You can play it, you just might not beat it.... that's OK. I buy lots of games I never finish.
What's even the point of this post? Like what are you trying to say? A game won one award, great
Genre doesn't really have anything to do with this though. Any particular genre is very broad and encompasses a lot of varied titles. Lack of accessibility would actually prevent those who love and enjoy a particular genre from playing specific titles.
Again, if something doesn't bother you, that's totally fine. The problem is when you start telling people that they also shouldn't be bothered by it.
And there's so much more to a Souls game - SO much more - than just the amount of damage that each enemy's attack does. So why not give the player the option to turn that incoming damage down so they can experience all that other great content? If the alternative is that they'll never get far enough in the game to experience it otherwise?
If you do basic research on games before buying them, you won't waste money.
The game has a 90 on Metacritic. Who exactly was saying that difficulty is bad?
I probably won't try playing any From games until the weird difficulty fetishization has gone away, but whatever. There's a million other games I won't try for completely arbitrary reasons.
I probably won't try playing any From games until the weird difficulty fetishization has gone away, but whatever. There's a million other games I won't try for completely arbitrary reasons.
That one gave me trouble too. Had 300+ deaths at the end. I'm playing through DS3 for the first time right now and some of the normal enemies like these assholes with tree logs are making me want to bite into my controller lol.
It's not being dismissive. I'm not saying it shouldn't matter for people, I'm saying why the dev probably won't budge to their wants and demands, and why calling them assholes or ableist (yes, we had that in other threads) is unreasonable when you wouldn't call that an artists who doesn't do a second set of paintings for disabled people, either.
I think it's also worth noting that the difficulty of From games, especially in the Dark Souls series, is thematically linked to the narrative.
The challenge, the lack of difficulty options and the lack of summoning are all readily available information. There is no trickery to swindle you out of your money.
I'm just pointing this out, but surely you see the problem in saying "I buy lots of games I never finish, why can't others do the same if it's not accessible enough to them?" for real lol