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Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,367
Ibis Island
Do you mean getting all trophies or just finishing the game? Because the trophy percentage for defeating the final boss in Sekiro is at 13.5% (not taking into account the alternate ending).
Without getting into spoiler talk, that's not accurate. There's different trophies for completing the game.

Looks like it went up from the last time I checked on PSNprofiles. While the game is still early-on. The trophy days is still currently under (though it can be a long game for most). I beat it in 25 hours, but have had people tell me it took them 45. My personal metric on overall difficulty will be the percentage for completion compared to other From titles (Though bloodborne being given away for free does impact that aspect).
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
The game rarely punishes you if you play the way the game wants you to play but move outside of that and it can be rough in certain circumstances but totally doable.
I agree. I thought Ninja Gaiden Black was kind of rigid in the way it expects you to deal with projectile spammy, grab happy enemies, and then I played Sekiro.

I've seen much better players than I am cruise through some of the trickiest bosses, and others get pounded into paste 20+ times, and the difference was how closely they stuck to the game's preferred approach of relentless aggression, parry trading, and clutch reactions to the rock-paper-scissors of unblockable attacks.

Sekiro is an especially extreme case of the polar opposite of my favorite kind of action game, which encourages experimentation and gives the player space to enjoy a wide variety of approaches. The part that really stings is Sekiro presents itself like a version of those games, with all the different combat options you get, but it mercilessly destroys you for even trying to use most of them on anything except the enemies they're designed to counter in highly specific ways. Even testing a new prosthetic in a training battle costs ammo, lmao.

So, I could get flattened a dozen times trying something cute with my spear or axe, or I could rely on firecrackers and my purple umbrella at all times, with the third slot reserved for the situational prosthetics — and lean on the barebones staples of combat and Ichimonji Double, which are generally way more effective than the majority of my fancier tools.

Sekiro is full of false variety, is what I'm saying, and that's a major bummer because a lot of your next-to-useless attacks look way cool. Other games typically don't punish you so harshly for going with a less than optimal strategy.
 
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sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,059
It feels like glass cannon game design without the cannon. I felt extremely underpowered most of the time since a single enemy combo can kill you while a player combo does just a tiny chip to most enemies. The way enemies fight is more "fair" but far less fun. You are essentially locked into each enemy combo and you need to memorize the timing to get your blocks in. Its quintessential beating your head against a wall just memorizing each enemy attack pattern for each phase of the fight. You also rarely get the opportunity to overwhelm your enemy since every enemy has plenty of combo interruptions.
The dependence on rote memorization for difficulty is just my least favorite type of challenge. It just wasnt fun for me most of the time. Every enemy felt like doing multiplication tables. It was just another pattern to memorize, not a fight to overcome. Also I am at the last one or two bosses so its not like Im just starting out.
Good post. Totally agree. Feels especially egregious since I had recently completed DMCV.
 

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
Going through New Game+ is where I realised just how good this game was.

It's hard to see on your first playthrough because you get destroyed by some bosses still and you think you aren't improving, but my God, when you come back in the 2nd playthrough and kill Genichiro, Owl and the final boss on your first attempt with ease, or you kill those purple ninjas purely through deflects, you realise just how much better you've got at the game. It's not even because you have more health or do more damage, you are deflecting ALL the attacks no matter how fast they are. To me that's a completely fair game, you've mastered the machanics and there's no RNG to screw you over, it all comes down to how well you execute against an enemy.

You've absolutely nailed it, I think NGplus has elevated this to my favourite from game. My brother is on his fourth playthrough and i can imagine I'll easily do the same. Absolutely incredible game.
 

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,687
On NG+2 and I'm still getting stomped here and there, but I'm losing a bit of steam. Just not a whole lot of variety, and I'm now just going through the motions to get the rest of the trophies. Still having fun, but I don't feel compelled at all to stray from firecrackers, ichimonji double, and umbrella for almost all encounters. I do like that you can get through almost any situation with just good deflections, counters, and movement. There's a purity to the game that I really enjoy, but I don't think it's any more fair/unfair than other FromSoft games. Going through any of the others on NG+ runs is easier as well.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,927
The issue is not about how fair or balanced it is, but rather how uncompromised it is in how it wants you to perform. It's kind of like that teacher and student relationship in Whiplash where you understand what it is you are supposed to do yet it's so incredibly hard to get it right.

 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
jump to the third branch soon as you enter wait for his foot to hit the ground when he jumps down deathblow one then go up and wait for him soon as the clones go away you should get the second and the last deathblow is direct just spam firecrackers and parry should go down in a seconds
Oh ok, i see. I knew that it was possible in the 2nd phase, but not in the 1st phase. I thought you were always pushed back if you were too close, but i dont think i really tried to go into the trees first.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,017
Sekiro front loaded most of it's difficulty in the beginning when you have a pitiful health bar and healing gourd and you're trying out a new game for the first time.

By the time you reached mid game you've seen all the challenge the game has to throw at you, and by the time you reached the last third of the game it's a bit of a bore (all the reused assets doesn't help). I would hardly consider this well balanced but at the same time it's not some egregious error.

I do have a problem with suggesting the charm in NG+, when variety and depth is the issue of the combat the last thing I want is to make the one thing I've been doing all game even more important.
 

FlintSpace

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,817
This thread gave me hope.

I avoided playing Bloodborne for so long thinking I won't be able to go past even clerical beast. I overestimated souls games difficulty too much and then had an absolute blast playing BB in 2019. I think I won't make that mistake again and will definitely give Sekiro a try.
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
I agree. I thought Ninja Gaiden Black was kind of rigid in the way it expects you to deal with projectile spammy, grab happy enemies, and then I played Sekiro.

I've seen much better players than I am cruise through some of the trickiest bosses, and others get pounded into paste 20+ times, and the difference was how closely they stuck to the game's preferred approach of relentless aggression, parry trading, and clutch reactions to the rock-paper-scissors of unblockable attacks.

Sekiro is an especially extreme case of the polar opposite of my favorite kind of action game, which encourages experimentation and gives the player space to enjoy a wide variety of approaches. The part that really stings is Sekiro presents itself like a version of those games, with all the different combat options you get, but it mercilessly destroys you for even trying to use most of them on anything except the enemies they're designed to counter in highly specific ways. Even testing a new prosthetic in a training battle costs ammo, lmao.

So, I could get flattened a dozen times trying something cute with my spear or axe, or I could rely on firecrackers and my purple umbrella at all times, with the third slot reserved for the situational prosthetics — and lean on the barebones staples of combat and Ichimonji Double, which are generally way more effective than the majority of my fancier tools.

Sekiro is full of false variety, is what I'm saying, and that's a major bummer because a lot of your next-to-useless attacks look way cool. Other games typically don't punish you so harshly for going with a less than optimal strategy.

Personally I dont have a problem with the focus as it is an action-adventure game and par for the course and ultimately one of the big variations between that and an ARPG.

It certainly does a poor job at acquainting people with the new type of gameplay, especially as a lot of people are approaching it like a souls game where it is designed around accommodating different play styles.

The prosthetics are a disappointment to me as are the combat arts, simply because they aren't needed and only become useful end game but even then just a curiosity. Though experimenting with them in boss fights can be fun, using the spear against owl for example will result in a mikiri and you dying immediately. You can also stack combat arts, top level prosthetics, items and abilities to create some super powerful effects but again this is late game and still requires people to actually be better than good to use them as the timing is tight.

The game is very well balanced if you already have the base skill set and can easily see what the game is trying to ask you to do but outside of that it's a mess and doesn't really do much to tempt people towards the better path.
 

smashballTaz

Member
Oct 29, 2017
749
Only your unbanked XP. As you earn XP levels, you keep the number you are up to, and the only thing you lose on death is the percentage of XP towards your next full XP level, if that makes sense. So if I've played loads without dying and earned enough XP to have 4 XP levels (which you then spend of combat skills in the 3 skill trees), and was 70% towards my 5th XP point, when I die fully and respawn at a lantern, I will still keep all of my 4 XP levels but will have lost my 70% progress towards the 5th one.

As for 'halting sidequest progression', NPCs can be infected by dragonrot if you die too many times in a row, and thus their quests become unavailable (though if the are a merchant they can still sell you things). This is instantly cured for all NPCs with the use of one Dragonblood Droplet at a lantern, this is an item that can be farmed.
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,773
I thought this thread was going to be about the lack of dick move enemy placements in Sekiro and lack of gotcha moments. Or how Sekiro is much more friendly with checkpoint placement and doesn't make you repeat long stretches.
 

fargodog

Banned
Feb 24, 2019
263
The last 3 or so bosses of the game are a bit overtuned compared to the rest of the game IMO.

Yeah, this would be my biggest criticism of the game overall, especially given it sometimes feels like you can be a little unreasonably crushed during a decent run if they happen to string together a particularly unlucky set of moves.
 

Villein

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,980
Ya no..the teleport me into the grab attack bullshit and enemies tracking me like they are glued to me does not scream fair to me. Not to mentioned a lot of cases where stealth is broken and they can see me through walls.
 

butman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,024
The way you develop the essay / error is simply a work of art.
You literally become a ninja when you know the gameplay mechanics.
The me facing the enemies the first 4 hours is nothing compared how I face the enemies after +30 hours.

After all the core of the game is attack & deflect an you must deal with that because this IS the game.

I love this game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
While I found Sekiro challenging, I am pretty certain that the conversation for Sekiro's difficulty is going to change a *lot* by the time we are talking about a new From game. The reality is that, much like Bloodborne was to Dark Souls, Sekiro is a different experience, and asks the player to unlearn previous From games while simultaneously learning something altogether new that isn't particularly easy to do. So, there's difficulty stacked on top of difficulty, but plenty of it is created from misplaced expectation while the rest is probably a function of lack of knowledge (Sekiro is terse with explanation and not particularly overt about things the player is doing right) and patience (not a new thing). Sekiro is a hard game, and it probably is From's *hardest* game, but the differential between it and say Bloodborne will end up being far smaller than the current climate indicates.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,451
I don't think its more fair/balanced its merely different.

Souls is actually more fair than most games involving experience points. There are not a lot of games that offer a chance to get back all your experience points after a death (especially if you remove all Souls and Souls-inspired games).
 
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SpiritSlayer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
542
First phase of the guardian ape still rustles my jimmies. Her attacks are just so damn erratic and she throws poop and farts on you.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
Well said, OP.

Sekiro really isn't hard but I don't have the patience to spam L1 like some kind of finger workout program.
You'll deflect at least 10x more than you would dodging in Bloodborne.

The real challenge to Sekiro is being able to tolerate a repetitive gimmick.
After playing 10 minutes I already know what the other 99% of the game will play like.

To each their own though.

It is FAR more effective to time your attacks (as opposed to just mashing the button). In fact, you will find that most enemies mess you up when you just try to jam on the deflect button. So yeah, you making a core mechanic repetitive by jamming on it doesn't make the mechanic itself repetitive. Also, a mechanic isn't a "gimmick" just because you don't like it. That being said, the last part about having only played "10 minutes" makes it pretty unambiguous that you are just trolling.
 
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Kazuhira

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,165
The posture system is the best thing that they have done,fights can take a lot of time or be done in less than a minute depending on your skill.
I hope they bring it back for DS4 or whatever is next,no more circle strafing for backstabs,earn it by breaking the enemy's posture.
PvP is gonna be huge if the next souls plays similar to sekiro.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
To each their own though.[/QUOTE]
Fuck there's another Owl boss fight? I might just quit too since I only beat Owl the first time through shear luck after my hundredth try.

The second Owl fight is, in my eyes, unquestionably the most difficult fight in the game. I say that as a person who doesn't believe that the first Owl fight is in the top half of difficult fights.

It is very rewarding, but it takes a lot of learning. He isn't nearly as vulnerable nearly as often as the first iteration.

However, thankfully, he is totally optional. You may wanna skip him.
 

Adryuu

Master of the Wind
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,591
Yes, I agree. Fairness is what I say when I describe Sekiro. Also balance. Also usually if you record your deaths you can easily identify your mistakes and that it's mostly always your fault.

Well I'm at the final boss after beating the late game optional boss and I totally take this back for this part of the game. Also there are parts that become a bit too easy, so it could use a final balance polish coat.
 

En-ou

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
Yeah just no. I'm on NG+2 and there's quite a bit of bullshit involved with certain bosses. More specifically

Owl Father and the fact that you can't dodge his firecrackers if you're near a pillar or wall (which happens a lot in that Hirata Estate fight)
Well don't go near a wall, use mobility. It's in your control.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
I was referring to Dragonrot, which infects NPCs the more you die, halting the quests they give you. Sure, you can cure Dragonrot after a short sidequest, but you have to consume a Dragon's Blood Droplet item to do it, and they're limited in quantity. I'm not sure what the other poster meant, saying they're farmable. I know that most vendors have one to sell, but they never restock them. You can find a few out in the world.

It's unlikely you'd run out of droplets unless you're overusing them or consuming them from your inventory to regain a resurrection in the middle of a battle, but still. To say this makes Dragonrot a decent mechanic because it doesn't have permanent consequences is like saying it's fine that you lose half your money and unbanked XP when you die, because you can grind to regain both. The point is, a hard game that heavily depends on trial and error shouldn't have big penalties for dying.

Personally I dont have a problem with the focus as it is an action-adventure game and par for the course and ultimately one of the big variations between that and an ARPG.

It certainly does a poor job at acquainting people with the new type of gameplay, especially as a lot of people are approaching it like a souls game where it is designed around accommodating different play styles.

The prosthetics are a disappointment to me as are the combat arts, simply because they aren't needed and only become useful end game but even then just a curiosity. Though experimenting with them in boss fights can be fun, using the spear against owl for example will result in a mikiri and you dying immediately. You can also stack combat arts, top level prosthetics, items and abilities to create some super powerful effects but again this is late game and still requires people to actually be better than good to use them as the timing is tight.

The game is very well balanced if you already have the base skill set and can easily see what the game is trying to ask you to do but outside of that it's a mess and doesn't really do much to tempt people towards the better path.
I think outside of the basic parrying mechanic, the game isn't very balanced at all. A well balanced version of Sekiro would have:

- prosthetics and combat arts that are all useful, without a small handful that are flat out better than the rest

- predictable hitboxes that match the character models and animations

- consistent hitstun when you attack enemies

- a dodge with enough if-rames to feel like it reliably avoids stuff

- far less tracking on enemy attacks, especially grabs

- many more viable ways to exploit enemies' windows of vulnerability

In its current form, Sekiro forces you into a very restrictive pattern of attack and response. The game could be just as parry oriented and fast paced without making the great majority of your characters' moves far less useful than the few really good ones.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
I think outside of the basic parrying mechanic, the game isn't very balanced at all. A well balanced version of Sekiro would have:

- prosthetics and combat arts that are all useful, without a small handful that are flat out better than the rest

- predictable hitboxes that match the character models and animations

- consistent hitstun when you attack enemies

For all of the above... Sekiro does.

- a dodge with enough i-frames to feel like it reliably avoids stuff

Sekiro gives you the appropriate amount of i-frames for its design. It isn't built around catering to how often YOU want to roll.

- far less tracking on enemy attacks, especially grabs

Once again, this is you wanting the game to be something that it never intended to be. The tracking isn't a problem if you use your tools correctly. It exists to stop you from rolling your way through every situation. Sekiro wants you to think a little more about the combat.

If you are getting grabbed, you are probably trying to play Dark Souls. My advice is to look on the box before you play next time. If you see the title "Dark Souls" you should roll frequently. However, if the title on the box says "Sekiro" then you need to stop rolling to the side, only roll backwards. If you own the game digitally then you are almost certainly doomed.
- many more viable ways to exploit enemies' windows of vulnerability

There are so, so many ways to exploit enemies. If you used more tools you would realize that.
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,618
The proper final boss is already the longest boss in the game, yet it has an extra jobber boss for no reason to piss off the player. I mean first time is cool, but dude could stay death, much like G stayed dead in Bloodborne, or Nashandra in DS2.

I know dude is easy and it's no problem but with such a hard boss after him that, again, he's already the longest and strongest boss, it was not necessary to put that jobber in again and again. It feels like the game just want to piss the player off and mess with their training runs against the final boss.
Longest boss in the game is optional
Demon of Hatred
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,618
Yeah just no. I'm on NG+2 and there's quite a bit of bullshit involved with certain bosses. More specifically

Owl Father and the fact that you can't dodge his firecrackers if you're near a pillar or wall (which happens a lot in that Hirata Estate fight)
You can jump and vault off the wall/pillar.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
For all of the above... Sekiro does.



Sekiro gives you the appropriate amount of i-frames for its design. It isn't built around catering to how often YOU want to roll.



Once again, this is you wanting the game to be something that it never intended to be. The tracking isn't a problem if you use your tools correctly. It exists to stop you from rolling your way through every situation. Sekiro wants you to think a little more about the combat.

If you are getting grabbed, you are probably trying to play Dark Souls. My advice is to look on the box before you play next time. If you see the title "Dark Souls" you should roll frequently. However, if the title on the box says "Sekiro" then you need to stop rolling to the side, only roll backwards. If you own the game digitally then you are almost certainly doomed.


There are so, so many ways to exploit enemies. If you used more tools you would realize that.
You were doing great until the patronizing stuff. I'm halfway through Fountainhead Palace with just 3 beads left to collect, lol. All optional bosses defeated up to this point.
 

Datajoy

use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,081
Angola / Zaire border region.
fair-and-balanced.jpg
 

Deleted member 29464

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,121
I'm not sure I agree because I felt the earlier souls games had slower telegraphed attacks, it doesn't matter if you have a longer parry window when enemy attacks are coming at you so fast and you need to consecutively react to them appropriately also very fast. That's what ultimately put me off the game.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
You were doing great until the patronizing stuff. I'm halfway through Fountainhead Palace with just 3 beads left to collect, lol. All optional bosses defeated up to this point.

The part about looking at the box was me trying to be cute, not patronizing (also, it isn't an uncommon problem that people are running up against, as so many people came from Souls first). So, my bad if it came off as patronizing (I can see that). The last comment was maybe a TINY bit patronizing, but I do think that criticism does come from people not experimenting with the tools enough (some of the best tools seem to be flying under the radar, like the Mist Raven).
 

SFLUFAN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,380
Alexandria, VA
Soooo..that would make Sekio the "Fox News" of From Software games?!?

OH C'MON - you can't tell me that at least half of you didn't consider making that joke before I did!
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
The part about looking at the box was me trying to be cute, not patronizing (also, it isn't an uncommon problem that people are running up against, as so many people came from Souls first). So, my bad if it came off as patronizing (I can see that). The last comment was maybe a TINY bit patronizing, but I do think that criticism does come from people not experimenting with the tools enough (some of the best tools seem to be flying under the radar, like the Mist Raven).
Fair enough I guess. Considering how some streamers are already doing meme runs like Axe Only, I know it's at least possible to use nonstandard approaches without getting destroyed. It's just that trying to incorporate a wide variety of different tools into combat, especially on your first playthrough when you're learning the game, is a big chore. You have to choose your attack windows carefully, and many prosthetics and combat arts leave you wide open to counterattacks, to little immediate benefit.

The effective use of your combat basics and the handful of prosthetics and combat arts I mentioned earlier demands a certain amount of enemy pattern memorization and brutal failure -- but nothing like what you have to go through if you're interested in switching up your approach. Why rely on stuff like Mist Raven or Floating Passage when Firecrackers can reliably stun or interrupt almost anything, and Ichimonji deals heavy posture damage while recovering your own?

Maybe if spirit emblems weren't so limited I'd want to keep Mist Raven in my second slot to supplement my evasive options. But there are all these factors that push you toward efficiency and the least risky path: Every prosthetic costs ammo, dying makes you lose stuff, many enemies are damned hard, enemies can interrupt you much more easily than you can interrupt them, and almost every enemy type deals massive damage to your health and posture.

All I'm saying is you shouldn't have to be a seasoned Sekiro player to enjoy a lot of combat variety. I'm not an amazing player myself, but I've almost beaten the game. It's quite difficult enough without handicapping myself by replacing stuff that works with stuff that might work if I spend twice as long or longer trying not to get killed. I've experimented plenty, because that's one of my favorite things to do in action games, but just about every time I stray away from the basics I get broken in half and skinned alive. Some of that is on me and my reactions when I'm playing, but a lot of it is on the game's design.

Coming off of a game like Devil May Cry 5, where the higher difficulties make enemies super hard-hitting but I still have room to burn through eight different Devil Breakers or swap between eight different Devil Arms if I feel like it, Sekiro's combat feels stifling. I don't want Sekiro to be a stylish action game, I just want to feel confident that most of my tools will help me win battles, and won't get me killed.
 
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Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
The fact that Chained Ogre exists in Sekiro makes me disagree.
Turns out you're supposed to circle him like crazy and hit him during his long attack recovery, and jump away from his grabs. The game gives you a dodge that doesn't really work, and a parry that will get you grabbed, and expects you to figure out that your good combat habits are actually bad sometimes.

I do want to say that the Chained Ogre's attack tracking is simply ridiculous, and that FromSoft is kind of a jerk for giving him animations that are outright deceptive. An enemy with such sticky fingers and wide range should indicate that visually, not just glom onto you if you brush his pinkie, or swivel in the air like you'd see in a bad Matrix fan-video so his foot connects with your head.
 
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Zolbrod

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,070
Osaka, Japan
I feel like I struggled more on my first playthrough of Sekiro than any other From game, but it's mostly because you need to learn the right parrying rhythm for each boss you encounter. Once you've got that down, it's easy.
I'm doing a new playthrough now, starting from scratch, and I completely steamrolled Genichiro, even though he must've taken me 100 times on my first go.

The Soulsborne games, on the other hand, are still tough for me even on multiple playthroughs. I feel like they're harder overall, it's just that Sekiro requires you to get in a certain rhythm that's hard to get used to, but once you get it down, it's fairly easy.
That's just for the bosses though; just getting through areas in Sekiro is WAY easier than any Soulsborne game, thanks to stealth and increased mobility.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,456
Yeah, I have seen a lot of comments from people who played other recent From games who are having issues, and I personally don't get it.

On the whole, it has been the least frustrating of all their recent games.

I had a LOT of trouble with Lady Butterfly, maybe more so than other games, but it was a necessary skill check and I haven't had as much trouble with any
of the other bosses. I am not quite finished with the game yet though.

It definitely feels the easiest to me just because the parry/counter is so easy to do and useful in like 90% of situations.
 

zoodoo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,727
Montreal
Yeah just no. I'm on NG+2 and there's quite a bit of bullshit involved with certain bosses. More specifically

Owl Father and the fact that you can't dodge his firecrackers if you're near a pillar or wall (which happens a lot in that Hirata Estate fight)
???
the one he does during a combo? Forward or right twice lands you behing him
The other one, dodge backward and be ready to mikiri or deflect