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eschu101

Member
Dec 13, 2019
8
Agreed. I understand why a lot of people love bloodborne and have it as their favorite, but i'm playing it right now after Sekiro and BB combat feels lacking compared to it.


I really hope for a Sekiro sequel with custom character and more RPG elements like DS. Too bad PVP would never work with it.
 

ASilentProtagonist

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,844
The hitboxes are so good, Miyazaki said he places a high value on how attacks "feel" for the player, and how it feels to be on the receiving end of it. Really shows.

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Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,294
I am replaying it right now and I think I agree. I do greatly value the diversity of options from Soulsborne games, too... maybe if I replay Bloodborne I'd be saying "ok Bloodborne is the best", lol. But right now, Sekiro is just so. damn. good.
Ironically, I think Sekiro's combat suffers principally because of two elements that were put in to make the game easier. Namely:

1. It is far too easy to get through the game by spamming the parry button when you have a vague idea of getting hit. The problem here is that there's no "untech" window: the game doesn't prevent you from parrying for any time after a failed attempt at parrying so, as many have mentioned, the ideal thing to do instead of holding the button down is to mash it. This is bad principally because it takes most of the challenge out of parrying once you figure this out. Granted, if the game prevented you from doing this it'd be much harder, but I think also much better.
*laughs in charmless*

2. There are similarly weirdly wide windows for things like the mikiri counter, meaning that you can input things very early and the game won't punish you for it. This isn't as bad as the other problem I identified, but it really undermines the logic of the whole thing when you can mikiri while the guy still has his weapon sheathed.

I also think the decision to make the dash attack extremely sluggish was a poor one, but I suppose I understand why they had to do that.
The generosity of the mikiri window varies greatly from enemy to enemy, I found. For Seven Spears and those lancer type enemies, it's actually really narrow, if you press O too early you're fucked. But for others, it works somehow. I think those enemies charge/delay their attack a lot, which would explain it.

I also didn't care for having to kill a bunch of enemies again after dying in under a minute to any random boss either. It's not like you could simply run past them either.
...What? There is literally zero boss where you need to kill a bunch of enemies to retry. All the bosses have a sculptor's idol right before them or close enough that it takes only a few seconds to run from it.

Maybe you meant mini-bosses, like the Bull, the Drunkard etc.? But those aren't bosses, and for most of those, running past enemies does work too.

Sekiro is too easy to cheese too.
This is confusing, because outside of a very few particularly obscure tricks, there's no cheesing in Sekiro... but there definitely is in Nioh (e.g. Living Weapons builds).

Im doing my regular NG playthrough of it without the charm now and yeah its amazing. I played through all my NG+ runs without it but not having any upgrades AT ALL without the charm really just makes it an entirely different game. It also prevents the L1 spam so many people used to cheese encounters.
I'm doing the same thing right now! *high-five*

So far so good. It's been a struggle early on, especially against mini-bosses, but I'm right before the Dragon so I'm progressing OK. The best/worst is yet to come though... xD

It really does force you to play without spamming or brute-forcing. O'rin sure schooled me, lol. And hell I actually figured out how to fight the Headless properly this time instead of just brute-forcing... đź‘€ (they're still annoying though!)

I gotta say, these Nioh comments really confuse me. I remember thinking it was pretty basic and forgettable. DMCV and MGR I get though.
Basic? Nah. Ki pulse, stance switching, the different weapon movesets and their customizable skills, the magic and ninjutsu abilities, it's all pretty great.

Having so many of your abilities tied to consumables completely ruins it IMO.
That's a weird complaint IMO. Was never a big problem for me, and you can spend your leftover gold on emblems too. In my current charmless run I have 500+ emblems and I use my tools liberally.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,198
...What? There is literally zero boss where you need to kill a bunch of enemies to retry. All the bosses have a sculptor's idol right before them or close enough that it takes only a few seconds to run from it.

Maybe you meant mini-bosses, like the Bull, the Drunkard etc.? But those aren't bosses, and for most of those, running past enemies does work too.

Literally your first real fight has a shit ton of adds, and then again in the memory you had to clear out a bunch of adds before bothering with the boss. And yes, it was mostly (but not all) mini-bosses, and so? They are still bosses. All I said was that I didn't like having to clear out all of the adds each attempt, and you couldn't outrun them because they were literally surrounding the boss.
 
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SecondNature

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,147
Im trying to decide between Souls III and Sekiro but it feels like both these games can be decisive compared to games like BB and Dark Souls 1.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,294
Literally your first real fight has a shit ton of adds, and in then again in the memory you had to clear out a bunch of adds before bothering with the boss. And yes, it was mostly (but not all) mini-bosses, and so? They are still bosses. All I said was that I didn't like having to clear out all of the adds each attempt, and you couldn't outrun them because they were literally surrounding the boss.
It's only the mini-bosses, and most of them are entirely optional. 🤷‍♀️
All the actual bosses (those who give a Memory) don't have enemies before them.
 

Ishmae1

Creative Director, Microsoft
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
539
Seattle, WA
Sekiro's combat was too linear / specific for my tastes; memorizing specific block/parry sequences per enemy / boss wasn't what I expected.

Visually amazing and great levels, but the combat was more to my tastes in the other FROM titles.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,198
It's only the mini-bosses, and most of them are entirely optional. 🤷‍♀️
All the actual bosses (those who give a Memory) don't have enemies before them.

Not to a completionist they aren't. :)
It might be a minor issue, but I really just didn't like the way they took the badly designed "more is better!" aspect of SotFS and applied it to this game for some of the bosses. It makes the early portion way more annoying than it needs to be.

If the Nioh 2 beta is any indication though, that game might be following a similar path.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,198
Not really a completionist if you only finished it once.

Did I say I only finished it once? I said that I only replayed it once. And when I say "completionist" I'm not talking about looking up achievements and every spoiler available to get every possible ending. I'm talking about going out of my way to discover everything I can on a first or second playthrough, as well as fighting all of the available bosses during that playthrough. That actually used to be what completionist meant before the checklist age.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
Racoon City
I thought it was great, I wish you had more moves at your disposal though, didn't bother with prosthetics much. I personally preferred Bloodborne and Nioh but understand why someone would pick Sekiro

Japanese developers really put a premium on combat design and I love them for that. I really wish western developers would care as much
 

Agent 47

Banned
Jun 24, 2018
1,840
Did I say I only finished it once? I said that I only replayed it once. And when I say "completionist" I'm not talking about looking up achievements and every spoiler available to get every possible ending. I'm talking about going out of my way to discover everything I can on a first or second playthrough, as well as fighting all of the available bosses during that playthrough.
Ok that's just a different definition than what I'd use for completionist. On the topic of adds, there's one mini boss that takes less than 20 seconds to clear out the surrounding adds.

Edit: actually I tell a lie, the same mini boss later has a few monkeys around it.
 
Nov 8, 2017
6,311
Stockholm, Sweden
It's super refined but it didn't really fit my playstyle, i like playing super aggressively relying solely on offence and dodges, sekiros emphasis on defence made the game much much harder for me than bloodborne, my reaction times are bad and have only gotten worse with age so i just never got good at deflecting and it made the game a bit too hard for me.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
It's good, but I hate the constant blocking. It almost ruined the game for me. I hope From never makes constant blocking an essential part of their combat systems again.
This is the best part of the game. It makes sword fights actually feel like sword fights instead of spamming attack until you win.


I'm doing the same thing right now! *high-five*

So far so good. It's been a struggle early on, especially against mini-bosses, but I'm right before the Dragon so I'm progressing OK. The best/worst is yet to come though... xD

It really does force you to play without spamming or brute-forcing. O'rin sure schooled me, lol. And hell I actually figured out how to fight the Headless properly this time instead of just brute-forcing... đź‘€ (they're still annoying though!)
Yeah honestly this is going to give me a lot of replay value. Its such a good experience.

And seriously Orin has been the one major hurddle so far. Its not that her moves were necessarily THAT hard to perfect parry, its that she has SO MUCH posture in addition to not really having a reliable way to damage her. Plus they patched out the cheese method so you cant even get a free deathblow in anymore either.

But this playthrough right now is really solidifying this game as my GoTY. If it had an old hunters DLC it might be up there with BB for me.
 
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Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,779
I'd say God Hand has it beat at the very least. However debates about "best combat system" are always weird and a little unproductive because nobody can ever highlight what exactly a combat system needs to be great. Some people will cite that it has to be super freeform high speed DMC5 combos all day or some people will cite that it should involve environmental factors and realism too.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,726
I am replaying it right now and I think I agree. I do greatly value the diversity of options from Soulsborne games, too... maybe if I replay Bloodborne I'd be saying "ok Bloodborne is the best", lol. But right now, Sekiro is just so. damn. good.

*laughs in charmless*


The generosity of the mikiri window varies greatly from enemy to enemy, I found. For Seven Spears and those lancer type enemies, it's actually really narrow, if you press O too early you're fucked. But for others, it works somehow. I think those enemies charge/delay their attack a lot, which would explain it.
I didn't touch any NG+ stuff so I'm not closed off to the possibility that the mechanics get tighter. I just think the NG experience gives you too much freedom to mash to the extent that it undermines its own mechanics.

As for the mikiri window, I agree: The real problem is that it's strangely big a lot of the time, like on the last boss of all places. It's sort of disorienting when it is possible to do it too early against some enemies and basically not possible against some others.
 

Squishy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
811
I didn't touch any NG+ stuff so I'm not closed off to the possibility that the mechanics get tighter. I just think the NG experience gives you too much freedom to mash to the extent that it undermines its own mechanics.

As for the mikiri window, I agree: The real problem is that it's strangely big a lot of the time, like on the last boss of all places. It's sort of disorienting when it is possible to do it too early against some enemies and basically not possible against some others.
The game doesn't really change that much through NG+, I did NG+, ++ and +++ to get all the endings and never really struggled again with any of the bosses I'd already fought, while obviously having to learn the new bosses that I hadn't done before.

The thing with Sekiro is it actually gives you the tools in your basic kit to be on par with the bosses, while in a Souls game or Bloodborne the bosses have a much larger advantage against you since you have to balance stamina to dodge on top of using it to attack. Even the giant beast fights and the animation work in regards to attack tells are much better in Sekiro than any other game since Demons Souls.

There's also clever work done in certain boss fights, where perfect parrying certain attacks causes the bosses to launch into long attack strings which lead to a lot of posture damage when you parry them, serving as a reward for good play. Good examples are the Guardian Ape where if you parry his set of long strings he goes into the huge overhead slam and if you perfect parry that attack he slumps over and is immobile for a good 3-4 seconds letting you wail on him. Genichiro also does this, where he does two swings from left to right and if you perfect parry the second swing he starts into his long combo string. (This also leads to a split second decision where you have to step away from it if your posture is really high as he'll break your guard if you miss a perfect parry timing during his combo string)
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,869
Las Vegas
*laughs in charmless*

Fugu 's kinda right though. You can really just option select for either a parry or for a block. Which is why you see so many players 'pump' or 'prime' the L1 button before attack, and you'll categorically get either a parry, or a block. Both conditions superior than taking damage. Thus minimizing the risk for players to do this.

In fact, it was when I was watching maximillian dood's stream (a successful Third Strike player back when he competed) kind of expose this system about Sekiro.

I don't blame the game for doing this though (especially, if - like auto adjustment difficulties game's tend to have, people don't notice it).

Having a game truly pivot itself on a parry system specific to a few frames (let's say 2-3, like Royal Guard in DMC4), in a 30 fps console game would be suicide. So, by using tricks with the animations, sound effects and particle effects, players will often get a parry (or a block) even if their timing is off to the point where the animation shouldn't line up (i.e, the enemies sword hitting Wolf's sword).

Knowing this, it really kind of takes away from the experience. I wish, especially for PC gamers - (who can increase the framerate) I wish there was a difficulty option that tightened the parry window timing to be something more truer to expectation.

Or, simply live in ignorance and just enjoy the parrys the game is giving you. Which is fine too.

And, lastly - to answer the OP's statement, about being the most "satisfying" - I disagree. It's not even the most satisfying combat in a From Software game. That would go to Bloodborne. Not because it's more refined or mechanically sound (in fact, it may be less so), but because it's just satisfying AS FUCK to mid-combo weapon stance change with blood ripping everywhere in that environment, with that music.

Satisfying and Mechanically sound are two completely different things. In Bloodborne, it's so satisfying to kill things.
 

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,413
I don't know what charmless is. You're providing details with no context.

I assume you're implying it's a PC Mod? Or is it a item you can equip on new game +

I'm not sure.
There is an item in Sekiro that makes the game harder, tighter parries, and some other stuff about how you deal damage.

In classic from software fashion, hard, but limiting.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,294
I don't know what charmless is.
Apologies for assuming you did know, considering you specifically replied to my comment mentioning "charmless"....

You start the game with a protective charm Kuro gave you. You can return this charm to him at the start to unlock a harder mode, which increases damage from enemies, and causes "chip" damage, I think 25% of the attack's damage, on blocks and non-perfect (e.g. non-orange sparks) deflects.

It's unlocked in NG+, but once you beat the game once, you can also start a regular NG in this mode, too (which is what me and jviggy43 have been doing). And if you play on PC I have no doubt you could just mod it so that its effect is active even in your very first playthrough.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,869
Las Vegas
Apologies for assuming you did know, considering you specifically replied to my comment mentioning "charmless"....

You start the game with a protective charm Kuro gave you. You can return this charm to him at the start to unlock a harder mode, which increases damage from enemies, and causes "chip" damage, I think 25% of the attack's damage, on blocks and non-perfect (e.g. non-orange sparks) deflects.

It's unlocked in NG+, but once you beat the game once, you can also start a regular NG in this mode, too (which is what me and jviggy43 have been doing). And if you play on PC I have no doubt you could just mod it so that its effect is active even in your very first playthrough.

No worries. I'm the one with the criticisms so the onus is on me to do research. I thought charmless was a particular kind of laugh to a comment you felt that was absurd.

*laughs charmless*

I was like, hey that's kind of mean to @Fuga. I didn't know Charmless was an actual item.
 

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,058
I started up new game plus a few hours ago to refresh my memory for the upcoming GotY vote, and doing the opening Genichiro fight really rocketed home how fun the base sword clashing combat is, even in this basic state with no tools except the standard sword attacks, the fundamentals of the gameplay had me pumped.
Plus I could actually win this time.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,294
No worries. I'm the one with the criticisms so the onus is on me to do research. I thought charmless was a particular kind of laugh to a comment you felt that was absurd.

*laughs charmless*

I was like, hey that's kind of mean to @Fuga. I didn't know Charmless was an actual item.
Haha, nah. Charmless isn't an item, it's a mode, e.g. playing without the additional protection of Kuro's charm, which is the default.

It's pretty dang hard. If you already beat the game once, you have it unlocked, and you can do a regular NG (or continue with NG+) without the charm.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,869
Las Vegas
Haha, nah. Charmless isn't an item, it's a mode, e.g. playing without the additional protection of Kuro's charm, which is the default.

It's pretty dang hard. If you already beat the game once, you have it unlocked, and you can do a regular NG (or continue with NG+) without the charm.

Yeah I'll do that then =)

I still think Bloodborne would be my choice out of the From Soft games, but having a tighter parrying window that punishes you for the option select is good forward thinking. I guess it would have been great to also have a 60 fps mode like the Nioh games. But maybe that was just impossible with the consoles at hand. Hopefully they do a remaster for next-gen, or I get a better PC. Doing frame limited parries at 60 fps is so fun.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,726
I understand not including the charmless option at the outset because players will take the option and get stuck very early in the game, but I feel like they could've done the Quake approach and just hidden the difficulty option.

Furthermore, it doesn't really address my criticism that the parry mechanic employs a lot of smoke and mirrors to make it look a lot tighter than it is.