SEGA's 3 Biggest Mistakes | Gaming Historian

[Kiddo Cabbusses]

What?

The N64 we know now was supposed to come out in 85 and was delayed.

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I recall my source telling me that was scanned in a 1995-era game magazine. Either way, it is all sorts of confusing. But the point i was making is that something so radically different from the final design should not exist in whatever form it did if the hardware was mostly finalized before the KI Arcade was published (and I doubt it was then; KI was all prerendered sprites and fmvs, neither of which play to the final N64's strength at all).

 

[Drizzy Finks]

Norm makes really great videos. Discovered his channel a couple months ago. All very well researched.

 

[Dr.AfroJaguar]

I recall my source telling me that was scanned in a 1995-era game magazine. Either way, it is all sorts of confusing. But the point i was making is that something so radically different from the final design should not exist in whatever form it did if the hardware was mostly finalized before the KI Arcade was published (and I doubt it was then; KI was all prerendered sprites and fmvs, neither of which play to the final N64's strength at all).

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But Crusin however does.

 

[SharpX68K]

Remember the awesome ports of Scud Race, Daytona USA 2, Star Wars Trilogy Arcade and Le Mans 24 that came out on the Sega Dreamcast? No, me neither. WTF was that all about then Sega? Let's investigate!

Sega Katana Scud Race tech demo development footage reproduced with kind permission from YouTuber Mahoujanai's video 'katana proto'. Thanks again!

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[Deleted member 3335]

Oh yeah absolutely, but I also understand SEGA wanting their console to be mostly 2D-focused because as far as quality standards go, 3D at that point was a mess and barely anyone in the industry even knew how to program in that space yet. Before long developers thought of clever balancing acts like using pre-rendered backgrounds or unique ways to stream game data so in the end it worked out alright.

Also a lot of the blueprints for the successors to Genesis/Mega Drive and Super Nintendo were outlined in 1992 or so, when it seemed like no console would have a complete 3D focus like PlayStation ended up having. That is a big reason why Nintendo 64 launched so late.

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It was incredible dumb, it was Sega with Virtua Fighter in the arcades which created such a hype for 3D graphics. They had the games, the expertise and devs and then they wanted a 2d machine for ehatever reasons.

 

[SharpX68K]

-Scrap the Saturn in 1993 and instead aim for a console released in November 1997 with graphics superior to the N64 and Playstation. Saturn was 'stuck in the middle' without a differentiating factor.

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That actually almost happened.

 

[The Almighty Tria]

This guy has gotten so much better. I used to think he was pretty cringey because he was so awkward on screen, but I can actually watch his videos now, hahaha.

 

[SharpX68K]

Sega had a number of good choices for a 1996-1997 console.

3Dlabs GLINT
Lockheed Martin Real3D/100
Matsushita / Panasonic M2
3Dfx Voodoo Graphics
NEC / VideoLogic PowerVR

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[Ecotic]

The more I think about it, a 1996 or 1997 disc-based Sega console would have been perfect. It would have to outclass the N64 graphically by a decent amount, so it might need to cost $299 or $349. Third-parties would have to be on board and produce showpiece titles, and EA Sports especially would need to produce outstanding sports titles. The controller would need to have a good joystick and analog trigger buttons. Fundamentally though from top to bottom Sega would believe they had the tools necessary to win the console war and morale would be high. A late release would give the 32X a decent lifepsan and combined with the lack of the 1994-1995 Saturn disaster, Sega wouldn't have the stink of failure on them. 40 million lifetime sales would have been doable if everything fell right.

 

[SharpX68K]

Possibly the most exciting and interesting of all 3D chipset candidates for the 1997 time frame was Tritech Pyramid3D, especially the TR25201.

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[Deleted member 13155]

Oops

 

[Deleted member 13155]

Saturn should've been scrapped, Genesis was still doing fine and Sony started from scratch. Developers would likely have faith in Sega in a post-Genesis era where a Saturn didn't exist. Its the Saturn that buried them.

 

[UnderNewOwnership]

Probably the biggest blunder people don't talk about was Sega of Japan taking a nice steaming dump on Sega of Europe. You know, those folks who were automatically rerouted to voicemail when they tried calling SoJ?

Europe had no loyalty to Nintendo. Why would they? The "Great Crash of '83" that Americans talk about would have been met with blank stares by Europeans at the time. PC was king, and this relatively obscure console from Nintendo was pretty expensive anyway. When the SNES came it was met with mostly reserved politeness, instead of the anticipation US consumers felt.

Sega of Japan never even considered speculating this. Which is surprising, given that even without any corporate interest Europe soon rivalled the US as a Mega Drive market.

 

[Nictron]

1. Being Sega
2. Making games
3. Sega Saturn

 

[Hawk269]

I was an Asst. Manager at Toys "R" Us in Hawthorne California when the Saturn had the early launch. I actually knew about the surprise launch a week or so before E3. That particular TRU was the closest to the E3 show in L.A. and I had some VP's from TRU and Sega in my Store to discuss the early launch. We were given about 20 empty console boxes and some signs and I was asked to make a display the night before the surprise launch. That particular Store was the only one close enough to the E3 venue and they wanted to ensure that we had a nice set up. I then had Sega reps in my Store like at 6am or so to check it out and they loved it.

That particular Store sold a lot of them, especially shortly after the show was over as we had a lot of people coming in from E3 to buy it. The launch was very strong in that Store. I remember I was given tickets to E3 from Sega (exhibitor passes) so I was able to get in early and check things out. It was exciting, but shortly after launch, I would say 2 weeks we hardly were selling them. We were getting a lot of "what is a Saturn" because Sega had not had a lot of marketing at that point and the $100.00 price point difference between the Saturn and upcoming PlayStation was a big issue for Sega as was the lack of software due to the early launch.

 

[Virtua Sanus]

I was an Asst. Manager at Toys "R" Us in Hawthorne California when the Saturn had the early launch. I actually knew about the surprise launch a week or so before E3. That particular TRU was the closest to the E3 show in L.A. and I had some VP's from TRU and Sega in my Store to discuss the early launch. We were given about 20 empty console boxes and some signs and I was asked to make a display the night before the surprise launch. That particular Store was the only one close enough to the E3 venue and they wanted to ensure that we had a nice set up. I then had Sega reps in my Store like at 6am or so to check it out and they loved it.

That particular Store sold a lot of them, especially shortly after the show was over as we had a lot of people coming in from E3 to buy it. The launch was very strong in that Store. I remember I was given tickets to E3 from Sega (exhibitor passes) so I was able to get in early and check things out. It was exciting, but shortly after launch, I would say 2 weeks we hardly were selling them. We were getting a lot of "what is a Saturn" because Sega had not had a lot of marketing at that point and the $100.00 price point difference between the Saturn and upcoming PlayStation was a big issue for Sega as was the lack of software due to the early launch.

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Thanks for sharing this, love hearing these kind of stories.

A friend of mine had an import store in Germany at the time and has made it clear a few times that the initial North American launch was one of the worst things he ever had to deal with. Even if it was only a month or so off from releasing locally, people from all over were coming in or calling in to order it, expecting the North American market to have the strongest lineup of games within it's lifetime. When the Saturn actually launched locally, interest had already vanished and he was left with a load of American Saturns no one wanted to buy anymore. I think he eventually sold most for chump change.

 

[Polaroid_64]

He makes great videos and seems like a really cool layed back guy. Very nice every time I have talked to him.

 

[Richard Booth]

I had the opportunity to interview Bernie last summer and he gave me all sorts of great information about these. He told me that the No RPG policy was made up by a publisher because he rejected their RPG due to a lack of quality. He also told me that he was recruited away from Sony and he accepted because he suspected that Sony of Japan was about to take control of SoA since most of his colleagues were getting let go. As far as Saturn support, he told me that he agreed to join Sega only if he could kill the Saturn and start a new console.

he gave me a ton of other information as well if anyone has any other questions about him.

Rich Booth

It wasn't Bernie Stolar's job to decide how RPG localizers like Working Designs should spend their money, nor was it his job to ensure that his console's libraries remained as un-diverse as possible.

And it was Sony America who banned RPGs (for a time, also known as the Bernie Stolar era), not Sega America.

RPGs were a niche market in America, but a few companies were able to carve out a living by tapping into a high-quality Japanese market and delivering premium experiences to a happy and loyal fanbase. RPGs in America were a valuable market on the SNES. Working Designs was one of the biggest reasons for an American to own a Saturn. But PlayStation never saw that same love (at least not initially) because Bernie Stolar was actively banning an entire genre, for no good reason.

Then Bernie Stolar was shown the door at Sony America (shortly ahead of FF7's launch, which Sony Japan had declared to be a priority in America), and he wound up at Sega America. And he didn't just kill RPGs, he killed the entire Saturn (because he didn't care about it, or Sega's financial health, all he cared about was the two-years-away Dreamcast). RPGs shrugged and moved over to PlayStation, and were bigger than ever.

Dreamcast launched and (thanks to FF7) Bernie Stolar was forced to eat his no-RPG policy, allowing Ubisoft to publish the B-tier "Evolution" at launch while they worked on "Grandia 2" (the sequel to an amazing game Bernie had banned on Saturn, and driven into the arms of Sony), while Sega America themselves worked on translating Skies of Arcadia.

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[j^aws]

Hmm, without looking at the article, my three top reasons after seeing Sega grow and decline from the mid-80s:

1) The Master System launched with awesome accessories, but Sega took the accessory route too far to extend the life of the Megadrive. For example, Sega CD followed by the 32x. Segas audience was losing faith.

2) Their Arcade output was good, but they underestimated Namco, especially when Sony partnered them through the days of PS1/ PSX. Sony were aware of their competitors, Nintendo and Sega: RPGs for Nintendos audience, and countered with Namco's Arcade library for Segas audience. The market wasn't big enough for three players.

3) The Dreamcast controller lacked the second analogue stick, which the PSX introduced before its launch. A future standard was missed. Cross-platform ports were going to be difficult, especially with the PS2 looming. No EA support did not help - their audience and developers were finally moving on.

Those would be my three main reasons.

 

[KC-Slater]

I didn't see anyone mention Sega passing on the Silicon Graphics 3D-chipset in favour of whatever Sega of Japan's engineers cooked up for the Saturn (according to Kalinske)

Sega had a number of good choices for a 1996-1997 console.

3Dlabs GLINT
Lockheed Martin Real3D/100
Matsushita / Panasonic M2
3Dfx Voodoo Graphics
NEC / VideoLogic PowerVR

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Didn't Sega end up paying for both the 3DFX and PowerVR (NEC) chips in the end for the DC? That was money they couldn't afford to be bleeding at the time...

 

[SharpX68K]

While that would be logical thinking, I've been sent some things recently that throw monkey wrenches in that logic. Particularly this:

(Translating the article leads to a lot of confusion about the Virtual Boy and whatnot, but nevertheless, I think the existence of a picture of a clearly CD based "PROJECT REALITY" tells it all.)

(EDIT: And it probably doesn't help that the "ULTRA 64" that Cruis n' and Killer Instinct were promoting were not really much like what the final N64 was.)

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Very interesting.

Also, Nintendo was working on the 32-bit handheld Project Atlantis around the mid 90s.

https://gonintendo.com/stories/2560...on-about-the-original-unreleased-successor-to

– "Project Atlantis" was a Game Boy successor that Nintendo developed around 1995. Rumours about the system started in early 1996. It was supposed to be a 32 Bit color handheld, to have four buttons and to have a screen bigger than the final GBA. Media reported the system was supposed to release in late 1996.

– Rumours further suggested that "Project Atlantis" had power comparable to the N64 and used a 160 MHz processor – it would have been way more powerful than the final GBA. Also, "Project Atlantis's" battery time was supposed to be 30 hours.

– Although Nintendo confirmed the system's existence in mid-1996, "Project Atlantis" never got released. The newly released Game Boy Pocket sold well enough so that Nintendo delayed the release of "Project Atlantis" to the end of 1997.

– Finally the system never came to the market. The reason was that the system was simply way too big to be a Nintendo portable system. Also it was too power-consuming, too expensive to manufacture and Nintendo apparently wasn't satisfied with it's performance.

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[SavoyPrime]

32X and how they handled the Saturn launch for sure.

 

[Cheerilee]

I had the opportunity to interview Bernie last summer and he gave me all sorts of great information about these. He told me that the No RPG policy was made up by a publisher because he rejected their RPG due to a lack of quality. He also told me that he was recruited away from Sony and he accepted because he suspected that Sony of Japan was about to take control of SoA since most of his colleagues were getting let go. As far as Saturn support, he told me that he agreed to join Sega only if he could kill the Saturn and start a new console.

he gave me a ton of other information as well if anyone has any other questions about him.

Rich Booth

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It's difficult to claim that the No RPG policy was "made up" when you look at the absolute dearth of RPGs on PlayStation during the Bernie Stolar years, and then see a major RPG publisher say that he tried to bring out RPGs on PlayStation in that time period, but Bernie Stolar (in particular) was having none of that.

I'm guessing it was probably never an "official" policy, just arbitrary, and Bernie never wrote it down. Bernie Stolar apparently also shot down Megaman X4, and was probably the guy fucking around with blocking Symphony of the Night, so his fuckery wasn't limited to RPGs.

https://www.polygon.com/features/20...bernie-stolar-is-still-proud-of-the-dreamcast

"Sony Japan wanted me to approve all this software that was being delivered by all third parties. Whatever the software was, I should just approve it. I said, "This is not a record company where you make an album and it's hit or miss. Here, if it's not visually attractive it's not going to sell, period."

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And then after he moved to Sega...
https://segaretro.org/Press_release:_1997-06-19:_SEGA_INSTITUTES_FIVE_STAR_GAMES_POLICY

Sega® of America is coming to the aide of consumers hit by a tidal wave of mediocre titles for other next-generation video game consoles. The video game giant announced today it will enact a "Five Star Games Policy" with all its upcoming releases. Games from Sega and from third parties for the Sega SaturnTM, other Sega consoles and the PC, will meet a five star quality criteria, or they will not be released. This policy will take effect immediately.

The Sega of America "Five Star Games Policy" was established following an outcry from consumers and critics alike citing the flood of poorly produced, unoriginal games for other gaming systems.

Sega is already seen as a leader in creating quality games, as detailed in the April issue of Next Generation magazine, one of the videogame industry's leading trade publications. The magazine compiled reviews for the three leading next-generation platforms, and Sega Saturn came out on top with the most five star reviews -- the publication's highest rating. Next Generation considers a five star game to be "Revolutionary, brilliantly conceived and flawlessly executed; a new high-water mark."

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Company chief operating officer Bernard Stolar and a review panel of product developers, testers and marketing staff will review and monitor each game from the initial concept to the final product. Monthly milestones will be set to assure quality standards for graphics, sound, originality, ease-of-use and gameplay are being met, rated on a 100 point scale (20 points for each category). If at any point in development the game does not meet the "Five Star Games Policy" criteria by falling below a score of 90, the panel will direct designers to correct the flaws or just suggest stopping the project all together.

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"The next generation market is getting flooded with mediocre games. History proves this situation can be disastrous to this business," said Bernard Stolar, chief operating officer, Sega of America. "The 'Five Star Games Policy' clearly signals our dedication to quality over quantity."

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^ That's from an actual Stolar-era Sega press release.

Wow, I sure am glad that Bernie Stolar was there to protect the latter half of the Saturn from that terrible flood of great games that were available on PlayStation. Everyone knows the only games worth playing are the ones that were rated as "perfect" by Next Gen Magazine, and everyone knows you reach that metric by asking Bernie Stolar what he personally thinks of the graphics and gameplay. [/sarcasm]

 

[Richard Booth]

In his defense the Saturn was a dead platform before it even launched. It was re-tooled after the Playstation specs were released and the launch was absolutely botched.

In addition had it not been for his pushback to Isao Okawa, the Dreamcast wouldn't have even had physical copies of games. Had Okawa had his way physical games would have been abolished altogether in favor of downloads.

Bernie may take a lot of slack for killing the Saturn, however he did far more right at Sega than he did wrong in my opinion.

 

[SharpX68K]

Sorry for being extremely late to reply.

The more I think about it, a 1996 or 1997 disc-based Sega console would have been perfect. It would have to outclass the N64 graphically by a decent amount, so it might need to cost $299 or $349.

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Third-parties would have to be on board and produce showpiece titles, and EA Sports especially would need to produce outstanding sports titles. The controller would need to have a good joystick and analog trigger buttons.

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Fundamentally though from top to bottom Sega would believe they had the tools necessary to win the console war and morale would be high.

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A late release would give the 32X a decent lifepsan and combined with the lack of the 1994-1995 Saturn disaster, Sega wouldn't have the stink of failure on them. 40 million lifetime sales would have been doable if everything fell right.

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I agree with everything you said here, and it would have needed to surpass both the N64 and 3DO/Panasonic M2 by a significant amount graphically (and in terms of CPU and RAM, plus include a dial-up modem of at least 28K.Thus, faster than Saturn's NetLink modem which was yet another add-on.

I didn't see anyone mention Sega passing on the Silicon Graphics 3D-chipset in favour of whatever Sega of Japan's engineers cooked up for the Saturn (according to Kalinske)

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Ah, I totally forgot about that.

Didn't Sega end up paying for both the 3DFX and PowerVR (NEC) chips in the end for the DC? That was money they couldn't afford to be bleeding at the time...

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Yes, exactly.

Sega also wasted money funding Nvidia for at least 1 project with Nvidia's NV2 chip. It never, ever even worked at all AFAIK.

When Nvidia tried to demo it to Sega, only a black screen would result. NV2 was using the same or similar approach as the NV1 chip (in Diamond EDGE 3D cards for PC). Not standard triangles, but quadradic texture mapping, which was an absolute nightmare for programmers, like the real Saturn but Saturn and NV1 were totally unrelated as far as chip designs, of course--Yet it's something that I see incorrectly stated in articles and youtube videos on the subject.

Anyway, that's why Nvidia went from the released NV1 in 1995 to the NV3 (RIVA 128) in late 1997.

More on Nvidia NV1 and poets of Saturn games to that hardware.