SEGA Needs to be Held Accountable for Atlus' Sexism/LGBT-Phobia

[Deleted member 2840]

Making this thread for fellow junior member P-Tux7, here's his post:

As a huge SEGA fan, this is going to pain me to say. I love their approval of fan projects (most recently the fan effort to resurrect Sonic Runners as a freeware app), the pro-trans/genderfluid/crossdressing character creator in Sonic Forces, and how, unlike companies such as Nintendo, they have enough humility to make fun of things that people didn't like. However...

Every time Atlus does something bone-headed when it comes to gender and sexuality themes, both NeoGAF and Resetera were/are thankfully quick to call it out. From Yosuke's "haha gay" jokes to SMTxFE's lewd outfits to Persona 5's rapey gay couple, people always roll their eyes at whatever cringey thing Atlus puts out in the 21st century. However, I'd like to point out that...

SEGA owns Atlus!

Why aren't we pointing the finger at this otherwise-liberal company for letting Atlus run rampant and completely disrespect women, gay people, and transgender people? I can understand letting a child company do its thing, but this money from the SMT series ultimately goes to SEGA.

I'd like to request that we keep this in mind whenever Atlus does something bad, that SEGA could have stopped them. Please do what you can to stop this - Twitter, email to SEGA, etc.

 

[Deleted member 9714]

How do the SMTxFE outfits compare to the rest of what you're talking about?

 

[Heckler456]

I'd rather SEGA not meddle, and instead have ATLUS grown by itself based on consumer feedback. If they don't, then well, that's on them, and then you need to draw your own conclusions.

 

[Glass Arrows]

I think the only way that they will care is if the japanese public makes enough of a stink, since generally japanese companies really couldn't care less about western players' opinions. This applies to not only Atlus directly, but I wouldn't be surprised if it applied to Sega itself which historically has had issues with how they treat the western market.

So basically just trying to magnify the voices of the japanese LGBT+ community and such, I think are the best ways to get their attention.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

I'd rather SEGA not meddle, and instead have ATLUS grown by itself based on consumer feedback. If they don't, then well, that's on them, and then you need to draw your own conclusions.

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I don't see how sega "meddling" and Atlus "growing by consumer feedback" is functionally any different when what's being discussed is Atlus no longer being sexist and anti-LGBT.

 

[Acorn]

Eventually a big enough stink will be made that Sega put their foot down, it's one of those things you just know will blow up on social media after someone does a good critique video or article.

It's a shame it'll take that.

 

[Glass Arrows]

Eventually a big enough stink will be made that Sega put their foot down, it's one of those things you just know will blow up on social media after someone does a good critique video or article.

It's a shame it'll take that.

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It seems that we're going to be getting to that point sooner rather than later. People have been complaining about Atlus' sexism and LGBT+phobia for years, but it seems like it hit something of a breaking point with Catherine Full Body to the point that Erica's VA and Atlus USA made the point of saying that it was bigoted and they would try their best with the localization to mitigate it.

If Atlus hasn't gotten wind of the problem yet, then they're making a point to ignore it.

 

[callamp]

Do Japanese audiences even care? I was of the impression that these depictions are consistent with mainstream Japanese culture.

 

[Ricky64]

SEGA is held responsible, I don't see your point op.
IT's just that unlike with some other games we know who did what, so we can put the blame on the director.

 

[Glass Arrows]

Do Japanese audiences even care? I was of the impression that these depictions are consistent with mainstream Japanese culture.

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The japanese LGBT+ community cares. Atlus has just been ignoring them for years.

 

[Lord Vatek]

I wholeheartedly agree, though SEGA owning Atlus is a relatively recent thing. They had no control over stuff like Yosuke because they didn't own Atlus at the time

However, the fact that people are completely willing to give both Atlus and SEGA a pass because they like Persona is frankly disgusting.

 

[GeoXwar]

It doesn't matter. Everyone is going to forget about it after 2 weeks just all the overblown drama that comes from this website.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

If fucking Yakuza, another Sega related series which is about the Japanese underworld and also designed mainly for the Japanese audience, can be more LGBT friendly then so can fucking Atlus and their games. They even removed a problematic trans character from the Yakuza 3 remaster. There's no excuse, be more like Kiryu.

 

[Feep]

It doesn't matter. Everyone is going to forget about it after 2 weeks just all the overblown drama that comes from this website.

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[Glass Arrows]

If fucking Yakuza, another Sega related series which is about the Japanese underworld and also designed mainly for the Japanese audience, can be more LGBT friendly than so can fucking Atlus and their games. They even removed a problematic trans character from the Yakuza 3 remaster. There's no excuse, be more like Kiryu.

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Doesn't Yakuza also criticize the japanese far-right? I heard someone mention something along those lines and honestly found that fascinating, because I struggle to think of any japanese pop media that has done the same.

 

[Samanosuke Akechi]

If fucking Yakuza, another Sega related series which is about the Japanese underworld and also designed mainly for the Japanese audience, can be more LGBT friendly than so can fucking Atlus and their games. They even removed a problematic trans character from the Yakuza 3 remaster. There's no excuse, be more like Kiryu.

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Kiryu is GOAT.

 

[TaleSpun]

Eventually a big enough stink will be made that Sega put their foot down, it's one of those things you just know will blow up on social media after someone does a good critique video or article.

It's a shame it'll take that.

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That isn't going to happen because the games aren't popular enough/culturally ubiquitous enough for any controversy around them to blow up in that way. Even at the series current height with P5 selling, what? 3 million copies in the west? Only a fraction of those people are going to be actively invested in this issue.

 

[Heckler456]

I don't see how sega "meddling" and Atlus "growing by consumer feedback" is functionally any different when what's being discussed is Atlus no longer being sexist and anti-LGBT.

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Maybe not in terms of this specific issue, but slippery slopes aren't always a fallacy. I'd rather they don't meddle at all.

 

[Deleted member 4532]

It doesn't matter. Everyone is going to forget about it after 2 weeks just all the overblown drama that comes from this website.

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Nah, I still haven't forgotten THQ

 

[Ricky64]

If fucking Yakuza, another Sega related series which is about the Japanese underworld and also designed mainly for the Japanese audience, can be more LGBT friendly than so can fucking Atlus and their games. They even removed a problematic trans character from the Yakuza 3 remaster. There's no excuse, be more like Kiryu.

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now now, let's not put our lord and saviour Nagoshi and his masterpiece on the same level of Hashino and Persona.

 

[lucebuce]

If fucking Yakuza, another Sega related series which is about the Japanese underworld and also designed mainly for the Japanese audience, can be more LGBT friendly then so can fucking Atlus and their games. They even removed a problematic trans character from the Yakuza 3 remaster. There's no excuse, be more like Kiryu.

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Bonus image:

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[Deleted member 12790]

Maybe not in terms of this specific issue, but slippery slopes aren't always a fallacy. I'd rather they don't meddle at all.

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I'd rather they did.

 

[Acorn]

That isn't going to happen because the games aren't popular enough/culturally ubiquitous enough for any controversy around them to blow up in that way. Even at the series current height with P5 selling, what? 3 million copies in the west? Only a fraction of those people are going to be actively invested in this issue.

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Maybe, but lots of people care enough about LGBT+ in games even if they don't care about Atlus' games themselves. Like if someone with a big platform did a good takedown I think you'd see people gather around it and make it an issue for Sega's pr.

 

[Deleted member 2652]

Maybe not in terms of this specific issue, but slippery slopes aren't always a fallacy. I'd rather they don't meddle at all.

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what is the exact concern? video games suffer?

 

[Deleted member 35077]

Do Japanese audiences even care? I was of the impression that these depictions are consistent with mainstream Japanese culture.

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Yes, the LGBT community in Japan, but it is only a small minority as a whole, and Yosuke still being very popular in Japan shows that at a grander scale most people don't really care about it. Boys still consider him best bro, while girls forget about him being a homophobe when shipping him with Kanji or Yu.

 

[Haribo]

Its bad parenting for sure.

 

[Waddle Dee]

There was a thread around a month ago that showed a lot of Atlus fans on this site don't care and will keep buying these games. I don't really see anything happening unless a popular figure on Twitter or Youtube calls Atlus out and that person's fanbase makes it a known enough issue that Sega/Atlus will listen.

Hopefully it does happen. There's plenty of reasons I don't want to play Atlus games but the blatant LGBT+ phobia and sexism are the biggest ones.

It doesn't matter. Everyone is going to forget about it after 2 weeks just all the overblown drama that comes from this website.

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This is the most obvious burner account I've ever seen.

 

[Glass Arrows]

now now, let's not put our lord and saviour Nagoshi and his masterpiece on the same level of Hashino and Persona.

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To be quite honest I've found that even beyond the LGBT+phobia and sexism, Hashino has issues as a director and writer. Those aspects bothered me about Persona 5 for sure, but the bland characterization of the cast and the main villains also bothered me. By the end, I felt like I was going through the motions.

I honestly think replacing him would be a net positive provided that the person who does so is less sexist and homophobic.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

Sega won't do that as they don't meddle with Atlus since they are different publishers and have independence as they did when owned in the past by Index.

The japanese LGBT+ community cares. Atlus has just been ignoring them for years.

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Let's be fair, Japan is like here. Those people unfortunately are a minority compared to the major audience and in there, there's also such divide with people not caring, others saying that it don't matter and so on. It's not so different from here if you give it a look.

If fucking Yakuza, another Sega related series which is about the Japanese underworld and also designed mainly for the Japanese audience, can be more LGBT friendly then so can fucking Atlus and their games. They even removed a problematic trans character from the Yakuza 3 remaster. There's no excuse, be more like Kiryu.

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The difference is that Yakuza has a complete different team and is also by a different company. If you don't even see the same things in the same company, I don't see why you would see it on a different one.

now now, let's not put our lord and saviour Nagoshi and his masterpiece on the same level of Hashino and Persona.

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Nagoshi is a member of the board of directors of Atlus, just saying. lol

 

[Deleted member 10629]

This whole thread:



Just because 'nobody cares' doesnt mean shit shouldnt be done.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

To be quite honest I've found that even beyond the LGBT+phobia and sexism, Hashino has issues as a director and writer. Those aspects bothered me about Persona 5 for sure, but the bland characterization of the cast and the main villains also bothered me. By the end, I felt like I was going through the motions.

I honestly think replacing him would be a net positive provided that the person who does so is less sexist and homophobic.

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Uh, Hashino won't be involved with Persona anymore, much like the team in P-Studio that was responsible for the titles. Studio Zero was created for that reason and he's going to be on ReFantasy (I think this is the name of the project). He only will be involved on what he worked in the past, so Persona 5 and Catherine, for example.

 

[P-Tux7]

There was a thread around a month ago that showed a lot of Atlus fans on this site don't care and will keep buying these games.

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Oh, link please?

 

[Glass Arrows]

Let's be fair, Japan is like here. Those people unfortunately are a minority compared to the major audience and in there, there's also such divide with people not caring, others saying that it don't matter and so on. It's not so different from here if you give it a look.

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Sure, but that was kind of my point. I'm not saying the person I was originally replying to implied this, but often when people try to discuss these issues with Atlus games they try to appeal to the idea of "cultural relativity", saying that Japan shouldn't be expected to care about "western" issues. They completely ignore the fact that the japanese LGBT+ community even exists. So I was just trying to point out that this isn't exclusively a western thing because LGBT+ people exist everywhere, and japanese lgbt+ people are criticizing Atlus for the same reasons "the west" is.

Uh, Hashino won't be involved with Persona anymore, much like the team in P-Studio that was responsible for the titles. Studio Zero was created for that reason and he's going to be on ReFantasy (I think this is the name of the project). He only will be involved on what he worked in the past, so Persona 5 and Catherine, for example.

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Oh right, I forgot Re:Fantasy was a thing. My bad.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

Oh, link please?

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Here:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ha...r-decision-to-buy-future-atlus-titles.100155/

Yes, the LGBT community in Japan, but it is only a small minority as a whole, and Yosuke still being very popular in Japan shows that at a grander scale most people don't really care about it. Boys still consider him best bro, while girls forget about him being a homophobe when shipping him with Kanji or Yu.

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Yeah, that's true. It's more akin to that from what I saw.

Sure, but that was kind of my point. I'm not saying the person I was originally replying to implied this, but often when people try to discuss these issues with Atlus games they try to appeal to the idea of "cultural relativity", saying that Japan shouldn't be expected to care about "western" issues. They completely ignore the fact that the japanese LGBT+ community even exists. So I was just trying to point out that this isn't exclusively a western thing because LGBT+ people exist everywhere.



Oh right, I forgot Re:Fantasy was a thing. My bad.

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I see what you meant now. But anyway, LGBT people do exist in Japan and you can see complaints, but the majority of the people is on the contrary side. I remember when the issue appeared with Catherine, many japanese were upset with westerns or saying that what happened wasn't that big so my point was that in Japan or in every place, there's going to be those differences out there.

 

[Aters]

Sega does own Atlus, but that doesn't mean Sega can just go to Atlus office and tell them exactly how they should build their games. That's not really how it works.

 

[apocat]

The japanese LGBT+ community cares. Atlus has just been ignoring them for years.

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Good to know. I've always wondered how much this is just representative of the general mindset of gender issues in Japan. It makes me happy that this isn't something that is only being raised in the west.

 

[JediMPG]

If fucking Yakuza, another Sega related series which is about the Japanese underworld and also designed mainly for the Japanese audience, can be more LGBT friendly then so can fucking Atlus and their games. They even removed a problematic trans character from the Yakuza 3 remaster. There's no excuse, be more like Kiryu.

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I legit never knew the Yakuza series was more so open like this. I already liked Kiryu from what I played a bit of kiwami because of his whole not killing or hurting those who even try to rob him. Trying to more be a force of good even in the Yakuza. This makes me like him even more!

On the subject of Atlus and Persona. Does this have to do with the current series director/producer? From what I understood when the other thread when people had this talk before, it seemed a good about of fault laid within one of the series current directors/producers and didn't seem like something that was gonna change till there was new blood in the role

 

[MagicDoogies]

Honestly this isn't something SEGA should handle. (Not that they are very good at handling even their OWN shit 80% of the time.)
This is totally on Atlus. I'm sure they are aware of the feedback and controversy. The problem is they just don't care and they could care less if the queer community that buys their games; whether it be overseas or homeland stops buying their games.
It's going to take a lot more people to make a stink outside of this community for ATLUS to care.

 

[callamp]

Yes, the LGBT community in Japan, but it is only a small minority as a whole, and Yosuke still being very popular in Japan shows that at a grander scale most people don't really care about it. Boys still consider him best bro, while girls forget about him being a homophobe when shipping him with Kanji or Yu.

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Thanks for the insight. Still many years behind the West on these issues it seems.

 

[Cactuar]

Making this thread for fellow junior member P-Tux7, here's his post:

Every time Atlus does something bone-headed when it comes to gender and sexuality themes, both NeoGAF and Resetera were/are thankfully quick to call it out. From Yosuke's "haha gay" jokes to SMTxFE's lewd outfits to Persona 5's rapey gay couple

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Can this be eelaborated on? I put 130 hours into Persona 5 and I don't remember a "rapey gay" couple.

 

[Mgs2master2]

Bonus image:

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we truly weren't worthy of Kiyru. A character like him comes by once in a lifetime.

 

[Lyng]

Can this be eelaborated on? I put 130 hours into Persona 5 and I don't remember a "rapey gay" couple.

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They are called beefy trendsetter and scruffy romantic. You meet them several times.

 

[Daysean]

Can this be eelaborated on? I put 130 hours into Persona 5 and I don't remember a "rapey gay" couple.

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Shit is unnecessary

 

[Deleted member 16876]

Nagoishi (the man behind Yakuza) is one of the board directors at Atlus so maybe he will be able to change Atlus one day. At the very least I hope that next Persona improves because Hashino left.

 

[Asuka3+1]

to SMTxFE's lewd outfits

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ok, personal opinions aside, how is this even related / bad as the other stuff mentioned??

that aside, what do you expect SEGA to do to Atlus? realistically? or why, in 1st place should SEGA "be held accountable" for Atlus, you imply/ propose boycott all Projects related to Sega?

 

[Dark Ninja]

Yep everyone should be boycotting Joker in Smash. Contact Nintendo not to work with these people anymore.

 

[Kiria]

What lewd outfits...

 

[enkaisu]

Yep everyone should be boycotting Joker in Smash. Contact Nintendo not to work with these people anymore.

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But I love Persona and I'm hyped for Joker in Smash.

 

[Deleted member 27872]

Yep everyone should be boycotting Joker in Smash. Contact Nintendo not to work with these people anymore.

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Ugh I regret getting the fighters pass because of this shit

 

[Jonnax]

But I love Persona and I'm hyped for Joker in Smash.

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Well clearly the thread has highlighted that a lot of people don't care about homophobia and transphobia. Just like most of society.

So enjoy your Joker in Smash bros.