Oh definitely. I'm not sure why people are downplaying the effects of our media on this election. Blair could win because he was so close to the Murdochs he was a literal godfather to one of them.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Secret dossier reveals Jeremy Corbyn’s strategy was crude and vindictive (Sunday Times UK)
- Thread starter Kirblar
- Start date
Oh definitely. I'm not sure why people are downplaying the effects of our media on this election. Blair could win because he was so close to the Murdochs he was a literal godfather to one of them.
In hindsight then, how long ago did Corbyn's problem begin, or was he doomed from the beginning, because he was so far removed from what the "majority" of the public actually "wanted" (as opposed to what we actually needed) ?
That doesn't contradict what I said. New Labour did a lot of good in it's early years (and even at it's worse wasn't as bad as the Tories), but the post-911 brainworms infected it like much of the rest of the world and it began the death spiral we're still stuck in now.
As soon as he won the leadership I reckon. There's only the Mirror that backed Labour and even they weren't necessarily pro-Corbyn. Even The Guardian managed to out-do the Mail for lies about Corbyn re antisemitism. The media establishment never wanted a Labour government.
Corbyn was never winning anything as he carries too much baggage, which ironically, there is no redemption arc in England even if you do better, say the right things and come across as being an actual caring human being. Corbyn has done things wrong, said the wrong things and is not a perfect man. But thinking this guy is a security threat and was going to exterminate thousands of Jews if he won, is some Republican style propaganda. Antisemitism will never be mentioned again now. "No one" actually gives a shit. It was largely used to win an election.
Meanwhile for the Tories you don't even need to try a redemption arc, you just say your racism is free speech, poor people need to work harder and everything around fears of our relationship with America are fake news. The public love it. Respect it. Believe it. They cheer and remember The Sun paper told them immigrant benefit scrounger aliens from Europe are coming to drink tea with Jeremy Corbyn whilst he funds the IRA.
Only the left-wing politicians need to be held accountable and pass scrutiny, if you are a Tory you can be as evil as you want as long as you got educated at Oxford and speak in a posh accent like the Queen. Theresa May had a wobble, but she was an arrogant woman. Only arrogant men can truly display the Eton Boy class.
The classism is insane in England. Absolutely insane. Off the rails insane. In the clouds insane. Liverpool winning the league after 30 years insane. The country has let it get this way though, which is precisely why the electorate IS to blame. This isn't just about one election, it's generations of English people not improving their own country and countries identity. English people not fighting with other English people to eradicate classism and Rule Britannia, because in England, we protest quietly, think of both sides and at the end of the day, "Remember to be polite when upset, especially if you claim you are left-wing".
Last edited:
Yup. Pathetically transperant. But it's the left sowing division somehow. Every damn time.
And this site still pretends to be progressive lol
It's scary: if you've got baggage, you're done; if you don't, they'll make shit stick, and you're done.
Re: bit in bold: I'd argue that English people want others (physically and financially) to fix the country, but not it's identity. I'm sure we have a word for that...
Yep in the immediate aftermath of a proto-fascist winning government we had the Labour right come out en-masse to argue for a return to centrism, in an election where centrist parties were decimated.
Yep and Corbyn's 'baggage' was being a lifelong antiracist and peacemonger
This centrist crusade of threads made only to disingenuously bash the left and make sure that things can never get better continues unabated on Era. Threads about war criminals and their extreme centrist friends get mysteriously closed for 'reflection' and disappear into the ether. Misleading, bad faith threads about how the left is terrible everywhere go on and on and on and on, always propelled by the same small group of illuminated pundit brains.
Economic anxiety? Whatever you are thinking, all roads lead to England being on a fast-track to be America.
There's times I see Americans waving flags and talking about the American dream and you think, gosh, to be that proud and happy is a sight. But a lipstick on a pig is nothing to be proud of. Save waving flags and talking your country up for when it isn't behaving like a literal shithole. The richest country on earth, or one of, and there is people screaming that healthcare for all is unbelievable far-left nonsense and/or people stealing their money they work for.
People keep underestimating the power of the electorate when it comes to ideas, culture and beliefs spreading like a virus. That's what they are. Idea pathogens. There is no quick fix for how embroiled England is in a classism virus. It's going to take time to kill off, some of which I said earlier is outwith the countries hands to an extent. The Queen has to die, as do many of the Royals from the generation whose legacy holds an almost vice-grip over the English (and the Scottish Rangers fans).
I'm for abolishing the monarchy because I believe that kind of change is simply needed for the well-being of the people, but in the short-term I do hope some of these Royals going helps a bit.
But besides cursing the Royals, there has been generations of anti-poor people propaganda in the papers, on national TV (Jeremy Kyle show and more) which gets people to engage in the poverty Olympics, look down on others and feel it's a humane way for the identity of a country to be worshipping the rich and detesting the poor.
Jeremy Corbyn's actual message and manifesto was primarily aimed at wanting to be for everyone, not just the rich, but English classism is that much of a cancer what people cared more about was thinking EU officials or brown people from the EU, were the bigger threat to their wealth/council home and ability to afford a holiday to Benidorm once every few years.
This. It's in the Times, a fascist rag, it's fucking bollocks.
Just them starting the long process of fucking over the next Labour leader, no matter who they are or where their policies lie on the spectrum.
Slavery.
Poverty has always existed in England, and will always exit; it's a means of control.
This is hilarious coming from you. Didn't you work in Finchley and literally hand the tories a seat there?
When the LDs parachuted their defectors in Labour/tory marginals, loads of us pointed out what would happen and it did.
Well, yes, classism is a form of slavery of the mind for those in somewhat comfortable living and actual slavery for those in literal poverty or homeless.
Slavery of the mind is largely self-inflicted though, even if you are indoctrinated. Because we live in the information age and if you are ignoring what you have access to, to continue being a mind-slave to classism, you're going to get told you have accountability for that.
People holding your hand is exactly what keeps the status quo keeping on. Tough love is needed at times in politics, especially when its the electorate battling the electorate to try and eradicate bullshit.
Agreed. For some it's "too much hard work" to educate themselves or others, but also "what's the point", but yet continue to complain. Yet another example of expecting someone else to do "your bit" for you...
Well, Brexit was the ultimate "it's someone else's fault". People literally believing anyone not in the top 5~10% was escaping Brexit and/or a Tory-led Brexit and being better off. Yet if you question some of them to this day they'll still tell you about NHS immigrants coming over for free healthcare, or our borders bursting at the seams, or how the EU somehow stole all the UK money and that led to the Tories needing to implement austerity-forever. £350m for the NHS stolen each week by the EU!
Or my favourite, un-elected EU officials bullying the UK, whilst the UK has just given un-elected Tories passage to the House of Lords and more. Take back control! But Scotland, no matter how it votes, is never to be allowed to "threaten" the UK it wants to have a say on leaving the Union. Hypocrisy everywhere.
Yep, let's ignore the IHS; let's ignore the money we receive from the EU; let's ignore how much money English universities make from EU students, and lets ignore Scottish rights.
The problem of the left worldwide is one big sum of small problems that can be fitted on a term, gouche caviar, when the left was in power it did too little to fight the big fights and the important ones to cement the voting bases of the left, also they miss the oportunity to gain on those middle high income where the right focus
And lets ignore the 10 years of Tory austerity we've just gone through that has seen the NHS crisis worsen, homelessness go through the roof, foodbanks explode in number, no new affordable houses be built and Universal Credit destroy social security.
But the EU!
🤷♂️
BUT, BUT increase in national deficit under previous Labour governments !!! And Trident (lest we forget).
Judging by the comments here, many are clearly not aware that in the mid-1970s far left Labour folks like Jeremy Corbyn campaigned against the EU alongside far right Tories like Enoch "rivers of blood" Powell... that is how much of a wrong person at the wrong time Corbyn was to be going against Boris Johnson on the verge of Brexit.
Labour left-wingers shared a platform with Tory right winger Enoch Powell (second left)
Note the rivers of blood speech is from 1968 so well before 1975 when Corbyn and his leftist pals were campaigning alongside Powell...
"In this country in 15 or 20 years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man".
Labour left-wingers shared a platform with Tory right winger Enoch Powell (second left)
Note the rivers of blood speech is from 1968 so well before 1975 when Corbyn and his leftist pals were campaigning alongside Powell...
"In this country in 15 or 20 years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man".
Last edited:
came in to say this
please stop comparing democrats and labour, and the US and British poltiics
there is no Leave or remain issue and bernie sanders is the most popular politician in the party, not the least
Nah, I know about socialist scepticism of the EU and that Corbyn is a Bennite because I have a basic understanding of British political history. Comparing them to Enoch fucking Powell is a hoot though btw
I don't think anyone is arguing Corbyn is a remain voter. He's always been a eurosceptic. I guarantee you he voted Leave.
England wants Brexit Corbyn or not. Many of us wanted Labour to win not because of Corbyn's Brexit views, although Labour finally backing a people's vote was good as it's the only ethical way to redo the fraud of a Brexit campaign of 2016. You know, with the lies and other bullshit people voted for they're not getting.
We wanted Labour because of their humane manifesto and incoming attempt to repair the Tory destruction of the last 10 years. As I said earlier in the topic this is the first time I've thought Labour were on the right track policy wise. Although I thought that in 2017 as well.
Voting Labour in Scotland is a waste of a vote, but it's still important for me to say I could vote for this Labour in the UK if I needed to. What they become next? Aye, good luck, roll on the UK ending thanks. I ain't giving an inch on what Scotland has built for itself in this shit mountain of a devolved Government.
If the English electorate answer is needing to detrimentally compromise after these last 10 years, you can do it alone. The humane thing the English electorate can do in this scenario if Labour has to shift far away from the 2017/2019 manifesto is support Scotland's right to ask the question of staying in the UK again.
We're not on that path nor do we want to be (Tory lunacy and some sort of fucking Blairism again). At least support our democratic mandate to ask the question, and then leave it up to the Scottish people to fight that battle between ourselves.
If you're not ashamed of the things Boris is saying about Scotland, and this goes for anyone Labour/remain in England, I question your motives.
Last edited:
I don't think he was a leaver, you can be a critic of the EU whilst acknowledging that we're better off in it, especially after so many years (and when leave was tory orchestrated). Pretty sure Corbyn was of the remain and reform crowd.
The UK press definitely treated Red Ed fairly, which is why under his leadership Labour nearly got as large a proportion of the vote as Corbyn did this time.
It's possible that you mean well or are well informed.
"Shared a platform with" "campaigned alongside" "far left Labour folks like Jeremy Corbyn"
It's possible that you mean well or are well informed.
Nah, Corbyn would support a leave motion he was in control of. I think the best thing you can hope for was he spoiled his ballot thinking this wasn't the time to ask the question given the lies in the campaign and the Tories being in Government. If he voted remain he would probably have said it and why.
The SNP showed how an actual remain leader leads a campaign and gets a positive result. Not that that helps England. I think even if England had Sturgeon running the Labour party the vote would still be leave. It's not like English voters couldn't see what the SNP were saying during 2016 Brexit campaigning.
Then again the lack of English people paying attention to Scotland is what gets you people on BBCQT confused and surprised Scotland never scrapped the Nurses bursary.
Whether Corbyn voted remain or leave doesn't excuse the UK giving Boris Johnsons Tories a majority after the last 10 years of Tory destruction.
This goes to show that it's head scratchy even for us Labour supporters. I don't know whether he was truly a Leaver or Remainer.
It's amazing how, if Boris calls for Scottish Independence tomorrow, he'll be getting the pat on the back from the "majority" of the English public, as if it's his baby and personal crusade.
For the "majority" + msm: anyone except for Boris calls for independence: bad. Boris calls for it: good!
I know you won't give a shit as long as you get independence lol :p
In fact, at this point, I honestly believe that if Boris and Corbyn were to make identical statements, you'd see the msm twist both to make Boris look like a saviour, and Corbyn look like the devil...
Boris: "The UK makes too much cheese".
Msm: Boris praises cheese producers from increasing the GDP of the UK.
Corbyn: "The UK makes too much cheese".
Msm: Corbyn makes unpatriotic attack on British cheese manufacturers, and accuses them of being a burden on tax payers. Makes cheesy promise to increase taxes on cheese producers, claims Laura K's source.
Last edited:
Nah he wouldn't, part of the classism that grips England is the Rule Britannia Queen and country unionism. That means Scotland is owned by England. It's a weakness to give up a country you own. Remember, Britain was a proud master of colonialism. Many of the gammons still think they're playing Civ 6 on a PC.
The English, by large, will be clapping like seals every time they hear Boris show contempt towards Scotland in Parliament and hear him say "No/Never" irrespective of how we voted.
Scotland is seen as attacking the UK in the same way the EU is. But the answer to that is the UK owns Scotland so "Hah hah". It's just funny we haven't voted Tory since 1955 and a crime against humanity if we don't blindly worship the Queen. No, I didn't watch the Queen's speech live at Christmas.
A recent YouGov poll shows only 28% of England thinks Scotland should be able to ask the question again. That is, it's not asking if you support Scottish independence, it's asking if you think it's democratically valid for Scotland to request a referendum again.
We've got our issues here with Rangers fans and other Queen and country unionists, but at a time like this what I'm saying is we need English allies to help us out too. Not show contempt like Boris does. That is what Scottish Labour does, hence why they've been wiped out.
Last edited:
I think a big big take home message from this is that "fuck polls" is idiotic as a strategy. Knowing who to target and when is the cornerstone of new big data election pushes, including from the likes of Cambridge Analytica.
A second big take home is "fuck my critics within the party, we don't need them" only works when you have a clear majority.
A third is that cronyism and hubris in campaign staff more often then not leads to disaster, not Trump 2016.
Christ what a series of fuckups.
A second big take home is "fuck my critics within the party, we don't need them" only works when you have a clear majority.
A third is that cronyism and hubris in campaign staff more often then not leads to disaster, not Trump 2016.
Christ what a series of fuckups.
Did you even read the OP?
It doesn't matter what Corbyn's policies were, what matters is that, according to these leaked documents, his strategy was shit and focused on trying to snipe Leave voting opposition held seats and diving into marginal, split races, instead of defending marginal Labor seats.
But I guess we're going full on plugging our ears and screaming in denial.
Read my other posts before chatting shit. I have said multiple times Labour and Libs fucked up by not going into a pact. But at the end of the day, millions were fine with voting for a bigot.
Last edited:
How many of the ideologues want Corbyn, McConnell, Murphy, Milne and McKulsky to continue to lead the party through the next 5-10 years?
Should Labour knowingly not back centrist members to lose their seats to change the composition of the PLP?
Should Labour expunge non-Momentum members from the party?
Should Labour knowingly not back centrist members to lose their seats to change the composition of the PLP?
Should Labour expunge non-Momentum members from the party?
No the Brexit deal being unacceptable was because the moment the leave side won, they started pushing for an extreme version of brexit that was actively dismissed by them during referendum campaigning. Remain voters continued to demand what they voted for, whereas the 52% of leave voters got more radicalised by stuff like May's "citizens of nowhere" rhetoric.
Labour won these votes because May's deal wasn't palatable to the remain side (as it was still leaving the EU), and wasn't acceptable to the ERG who wanted a more extreme form of Brexit. Labours support nationally was increasingly split between two extremes that couldn't be reconciled, and siding with one immediately pissed off the other. Unfortunately this included support for a 2nd referendum for Labour's leave voters.
You can map the drop offs in Labour support from around Jan 2019, when May had her first Meaningful Vote on her Brexit deal, with subsequent losses each time there is another new vote, or there were extensions to extend article 50. Conservative support grows from June when it is obvious their next leader will be Johnson, someone who is very pro leave.
All of these stats support my point though? - too many leave voters that needed to be retained went to the Tories. Labour retained 79% of their Remain voters, and lost 48% of their leave voters.
Leave voters saw the promise of a second referendum for what it was - another chance to stop Brexit. The left's mistake in this election was trying to fight the referendum again, when the debate was lost in 2016 - people should have been arguing for the softest brexit possible instead of asking the same question again and hoping that the electorate aren't stupid enough to vote wrongly twice.
you do realize that half of the posters in this thread share the same view as you, right?
User banned (2 weeks): personal attack, hostility, history of related infractions
The OP was written by the biggest lib on this site who's strategy is seemingly to fuck with the left as much as possible. They are pretty good at it too.
So do you have anything that opposes what is spelled out in the OP or are you just ignoring it for dogmatic purposes?
It means the OP's cherrypicking of an already questionable source that posters in this thread can't even fully read without a paid/trial account is questionable.
Because that's 100% true. Never forget how they made Ed fucking Milliband the reincarnation of Stalin because he ate a sandwich "wrong", and the media has only continued to shift rightwards since then.
While the UK media exists as it is I find much of this irrelevant. Since I don't think getting close to Murdoch and literally cucking him like Blair apparently did is an option anymore anyone interested in making things better needs to take a united front against what the media has become and drag them at every opportunity. Even centrists should consider this cause helpful to them (again, look at Milliband). Until people with the power to make a difference unite against the grotesque tumour that is the country's current media then it's doomed to slowly die to it.
Even then one has to wonder, considering everything that Boris must have given to Murdoch, what could another contender possibly offer him in future?
What will the devil ask Boris for in 2024/25, considering he already owns his soul ?
I think the huge issues we missed were how big an issue Brexit is to the electorate, and using the wrong messages to try and persuade undecided voters.
Every undecided voter I spoke to mentioned Brexit. I would explain Labours policy, and then they'd ask why were we trying to void the 2016 results. I said we were voiding it but after so much deadlock, so much bickering between the UK and EU, I don't think we could stand on our own without an arrangement that involved staying as part of the single market and custom union. Trying to get that point across to millions is impossible, regardless of the people power that Labour did have.
People are very cynical to Labours claims about the NHS being sold off. Most people don't really understand that chunks of the NHS are already handled by private contractors, and those are the worst parts.
This was a very difficult election and the results showed that we were fighting a losing battle.
Labour need to stay focused. The press is going to keep pushing this agenda that they're in a mess and can't keep the house in order but we need to show otherwise.
These next 5 years will determine whether people do want a Labour government or if we're stuck with the Tories for generations.
Every undecided voter I spoke to mentioned Brexit. I would explain Labours policy, and then they'd ask why were we trying to void the 2016 results. I said we were voiding it but after so much deadlock, so much bickering between the UK and EU, I don't think we could stand on our own without an arrangement that involved staying as part of the single market and custom union. Trying to get that point across to millions is impossible, regardless of the people power that Labour did have.
People are very cynical to Labours claims about the NHS being sold off. Most people don't really understand that chunks of the NHS are already handled by private contractors, and those are the worst parts.
This was a very difficult election and the results showed that we were fighting a losing battle.
Labour need to stay focused. The press is going to keep pushing this agenda that they're in a mess and can't keep the house in order but we need to show otherwise.
These next 5 years will determine whether people do want a Labour government or if we're stuck with the Tories for generations.
Imagine unironically quoting The Times. It has the integrity of the Daily Mail, like the vast majority of UK news outlets. Seriously, post an argument by Tucker Carlson against the left if you wanna make such an argument, OP. Or are you really so easily fooled by the more polite wording to not realise that most UK news outlets have descended into supporting fascists-- Sorry, Conservatives?
"Deranged optimism" is definitely how I'd describe the Corbyn cult and how its managed to bring the Labour party close to extinction. Tom Watson putting the boot in yesterday was also long overdue.
Genuinely not sure I can see much of a future in the Labour party if a major course correction and purge doesn't occur soon into the new year. The 70's/80's cycle happening all over again so soon is frankly ridiculous, but the Twitter generation refuses to learn from a history that isn't the browser variety.
Genuinely not sure I can see much of a future in the Labour party if a major course correction and purge doesn't occur soon into the new year. The 70's/80's cycle happening all over again so soon is frankly ridiculous, but the Twitter generation refuses to learn from a history that isn't the browser variety.
While labour have been absolutely hopeless for years I've got to add that the only reason the British public didn't like Corbyn is because the entire press cohort told them he shouldn't be liked. An incessant, truly incessant campaign across virtually every newspaper and reinforced on TV (thanks to the Beeb overly reliant on using press coverage to inform their coverage also). Even the Guardian was anti Corbyn from the outset and endlessly attacked him. To me Corbyn seemed like one of the few human beings in Parliament, with long held principles of helping the poor and not invading countries for oil etc. He was a decent man with good, if ambitious ideas. Ideas the country needs rather than this discount brand fascist we're now bumbling on with for 5 years at least.