Seattle police are retaking CHAZ

[Fulminator]

Would need to be significantly larger to be sustainable and at some size you get into "too small to be a nation, too big to be a mental institution" territory.

Click to shrink...

mental institution?

it doesn't need to be a nation, could be more of a city state. Not sure of how many people occupied CHAZ, but I agree it would need to be larger to be sustainable.

The city isn't chartered to support and help sustain autonomous zones. What some folks seem to be asking for is an ad-hoc annexation of the area by a non-governmental entity.

Did the commune not attract competent urban planners or land use attorneys?

Click to shrink...

I don't really think it was running for long enough nor planned out thoroughly enough to attract people to it. If you want people to move there you have to have some sort of plan for moving forward and establishing yourself as a legitimate state.

This idea could work, but the proper forethought would have to be established for future plans/a road map for how to get things really moving.

Ultimately, CHAZ didn't really seem like it had this and seems as though it was established in a passionate moment (not necessarily a bad thing), but not enough thought was put into sustainable infrastructure for it to succeed. I also don't really believe it would have been given the room to grow even if it had put that thought in, though.

 

[GYODX]

Just been there.
So the police came around 530 I think (my friends who live nearby told me the helicopter woke them up) set up a police tape across the whole zone and park, AFAIK without any resistance (I don't think there is anyone out in the street in 530) and now city workers are dismantling the whole thing.
There are small crowds forming next to the police line, but outside one dude that shout some incoherent things at the cops no one was even trying to start a chant.
I have not seen them removing any tents, but there are way less tents there now, I suspect a lot of people just bolted when they saw the cops.


I have no idea why it was established and I think the net result of doing that shit was nothing but negative.
I hope no one gets hurt in the process of clearing it up, but good fucking riddance.

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I think you're one of the few people posting in these threads that has actually been to the CHOP on a regular basis, so I just wanna say that your perspective is much appreciated.

 

[Chikor]

I think you're one of the few people posting in these threads that has actually been to the CHOP on a regular basis, so I just wanna say that your perspective is much appreciated.

Click to shrink...

I want to say, I don't blame anyone for getting the wrong impression, the reason I go there every day is that I am fucking getting gaslighted by US media to a level that scares me.
Like, I was there the night they cleared the police station and I've seen exactly who moved the barriers and why, I even saw the person who wrote "welcome to free cap hill" and I'm pretty sure this was just a joke.
Then I wake the next day and the NYT write about it like there is an area in rebellion.
And I'm not even talking about what streamers and youtubers said about that place.

The city isn't chartered to support and help sustain autonomous zones. What some folks seem to be asking for is an ad-hoc annexation of the area by a non-governmental entity.

Did the commune not attract competent urban planners or land use attorneys?

Click to shrink...

It's part of the city.
And the city never stopped servicing it btw, they put porta potties and water fountains, sanitation workers came to take out the garbage every day.
They stopped issuing citations for like jaywalking or camping in the park, but that doesn't mean they cut that park off.

 

[Contramann]

People seem to be real quick to throw those protesters to the pigs...

What gives, seriously?

Click to shrink...

People really take of their mask when the right topics comes along. Lot of people not as Left as they think and claim they are.

 

[Hiphopopotamus]

I want to say, I don't blame anyone for getting the wrong impression, the reason I go there every day is that I am fucking getting gaslighted by US media to a level that scares me.
Like, I was there the night they cleared the police station and I've seen exactly who moved the barriers and why, I even saw the person who wrote "welcome to free cap hill" and I'm pretty sure this was just a joke.
Then I wake the next day and the NYT write about it like there is an area in rebellion.
And I'm not even talking about what streamers and youtubers said about that place.


It's part of the city.
And the city never stopped servicing it btw, they put porta potties and water fountains, sanitation workers came to take out the garbage every day.
They stopped issuing citations for like jaywalking or camping in the park, but that doesn't mean they cut that park off.

Click to shrink...

That's beside the point. The provision of services is based on the people agreeing to local/ state ordinances and Land Development Codes. I can guarantee that there are huge legal implications for the city in having a parallel community that can't/ won't enforce local laws.

It's like having a HOA that won't enforce littering and nuisance violations, eventually they run afoul of laws on the books.

 

[the_wart]

You say this like the 'autonomous zone' is some force of nature that exists independent of the city. The city IS chartered to provide services for that neighborhood, the city is still taking tax revenue from those residents. Their power and water bills weren't canceled. You are being intentionally obtuse and disingenuous about this.

Click to shrink...

I don't think they're the one being obtuse here. Is your position that the CHAZ activists can reject the authority of the city government and still be entitled to all services the city provides? I think it's pretty obvious why that is unworkable. If you want to set up an "autonomous zone" you can't just impose it on a random slice of a city where the continued provision of city services is a foundational assumption.

 

[JohnsonUT]

Just been there.
So the police came around 530 I think (my friends who live nearby told me the helicopter woke them up) set up a police tape across the whole zone and park, AFAIK without any resistance (I don't think there is anyone out in the street in 530) and now city workers are dismantling the whole thing.
There are small crowds forming next to the police line, but outside one dude that shout some incoherent things at the cops no one was even trying to start a chant.
I have not seen them removing any tents, but there are way less tents there now, I suspect a lot of people just bolted when they saw the cops.


I have no idea why it was established and I think the net result of doing that shit was nothing but negative.
I hope no one gets hurt in the process of clearing it up, but good fucking riddance.

Click to shrink...

I think it was established almost as a sudden reaction to the nightly police riots we were all getting to watch. When the police abandoned the precinct, it created this power vacuum that protesters immediately and instinctively filled. After that point, it became a case of "ok we have this area. What next?" And I don't think that question was ever satisfactorily answered.

I don't want to belittle the groups within the zone that may have had clear goals. And, I am definitely not talking about Fox News vile portrayal of the place that poisoned my family's minds across the US. But, even the people who lived nearby were unable to understand what the goal was.

 

[Sunster]

Lol whats with the bicycles?

Click to shrink...

the elite of the elite

 

[TacomaSCDisaster]

Most of the remaining protesters bailed out once the cops arrived and those that remained have been arrested en masse. 23 arrests so far and rising.

This thing had been on the way out for a while. After several shootings in one weekend and one particularly bad incident where CHOP security killed a 14-year-old kid they mistook for a shooter, any goodwill this thing had left had dwindled down to almost nothing. Even my local leftist friends all abandoned it at least a week ago.

I'll always remember that first week or so as something special, though. Free food, free music, free literature, housing for the houseless, free classes and seminars on things like becoming a field medic, etc.

Something like this could work in the long run. But the fact that this thing sprung up so spontaneously with no real leadership, no real goal and no real plans guaranteed it would fall apart like this eventually. It's just unfortunate that it ended so violently.

 

[Imperfected]

People really take of their mask when the right topics comes along. Lot of people not as Left as they think and claim they are.

Click to shrink...

So, what? If people don't willfully ignore a truck with two black teenagers in it getting perforated by armed "security" to spare the blush of the wannabe-anarcho-socialists who decided setting up an adult pillow fort was more important than pushing the city for reasonable concessions, you're going to drop the Leftier Than Thou Card on us?

Fucking have it, man. I doubt anyone wants to be a part of what you're defining the "Left" as.

 

[GYODX]

We're also tired of having movements co-opted and manipulated into bullshit where black teenagers are getting murdered in the zone that was supposed to be created because of a black man getting murdered and claiming to have the moral high ground. At that point what are you? You think we're gonna applaud the effort after your self-appointed force straight up executes a black teen? Of course we're gonna turn their asses over to the cops. They were no better than cops.

This ain't even the first attempt of white people jumping in and fucking it all up. I've been watching instances of that go down THIS ENTIRE TIME. This is just the most severe case. You don't get an A for effort when your self appointed force tells the teens they just riddled with bullets "oh, you're not dead?"

Click to shrink...

Well-said.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I don't think they're the one being obtuse here. Is your position that the CHAZ activists can reject the authority of the city government and still be entitled to all services the city provides? I think it's pretty obvious why that is unworkable. If you want to set up an "autonomous zone" you can't just impose it on a random slice of a city where the continued provision of city services is a foundational assumption.

Click to shrink...

No I'm saying the city has an obligation to try and work things out with citizenry when they have legitimate grievances about the way they are being policed. The only reason the 'autonomous zone' even exists is because the mayor just let it happen. There were alternatives to CHOP, and the city did not pursue them in favor of letting this become a shitshow.

The city was never relieved of its obligation to provide services anyway because people are still paying for those services in the form of taxes and utility payments.

 

[TacomaSCDisaster]

The final coffin nail was definitely the shooting that killed that kid. CHOP security acted incredibly poorly, and effectively did the exact thing they were protesting against the cops for doing in the first place. They undermined their entire message with that, especially when they failed to act to punish anyone responsible.

 

[Chikor]

I don't think they're the one being obtuse here. Is your position that the CHAZ activists can reject the authority of the city government and still be entitled to all services the city provides? I think it's pretty obvious why that is unworkable. If you want to set up an "autonomous zone" you can't just impose it on a random slice of a city where the continued provision of city services is a foundational assumption.

Click to shrink...

The city blessed this thing, it's like a block party. The city is allowed to say "we're not gonna enforce jaywalking" and "you are allowed to camp here", which from a municipal point of view is all they ever did.
I am not sure I see the legal angle here. I mean, you can sue the city, this is America, but I kinda doubt this is something that is easy to win.

I think it was established almost as a sudden reaction to the nightly police riots we were all getting to watch. When the police abandoned the precinct, it created this power vacuum that protesters immediately and instinctively filled. After that point, it became a case of "ok we have this area. What next?" And I don't think that question was ever satisfactorily answered.

I don't want to belittle the groups within the zone that may have had clear goals. And, I am definitely not talking about Fox News vile portrayal of the place that poisoned my family's minds across the US. But, even the people who lived nearby were unable to understand what the goal was.

Click to shrink...

While you were getting to watch it, I was there every night , and I was there the night the police station was abandoned, and my interpretation of the events is not close to yours.
I think streamers created a terribly skewed view of what was going on there, and some of them just straight up made shit up for clicks and clout.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

I think a lot of liberals, and the sort on this forum especially, are only liberal up until the point when they are actually impacted.

This thread is a great example, as an organized community tried to come together without the need for the fascist police, having to organize their own security while dealing with Proud Boys and other neo-nazis, and it took 2 weeks before they were cheering on the cops to go bust some skulls.

When push comes to shove, the liberal mask comes off, and what's underneath that civility fetish is pretty goddamn sinister.

Click to shrink...

Also I think the passion here and elsewhere has worn down after they changed

Most of the remaining protesters bailed out once the cops arrived and those that remained have been arrested en masse. 23 arrests so far and rising.

This thing had been on the way out for a while. After several shootings in one weekend and one particularly bad incident where CHOP security killed a 14-year-old kid they mistook for a shooter, any goodwill this thing had left had dwindled down to almost nothing. Even my local leftist friends all abandoned it at least a week ago.

Click to shrink...

16 year old, and not mistaken for a shooter. Guess I'll still try and correct CHOP disinformation even after its dismantled.

 

[GYODX]

Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.

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If you're going to accuse anyone in particular of being a fascist, quote that person directly, you coward.

 

[Contramann]

So, what? If people don't willfully ignore a truck with two black teenagers in it getting perforated by armed "security" to spare the blush of the wannabe-anarcho-socialists who decided setting up an adult pillow fort was more important than pushing the city for reasonable concessions, you're going to drop the Leftier Than Thou Card on us?

Fucking have it, man. I doubt anyone wants to be a part of what you're defining the "Left" as.

Click to shrink...

If not suddenly clapping because the Police are taking action because I'm "TIRED" of the things going on in my city is "holier-than-thou" then I'm guilty as charged. I see no reason to blame the protestors over the authorities when the authorities are responsible for the situation unfolding in the first place. People are all angry at the Protestors when it's not their decision if the Police never come back. If your first reaction to the Authorities incompetently doing their job is "Yes finally, justice" I'm not sure you're as left as you think you even could be.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

The city blessed this thing, it's like a block party. The city is allowed to say "we're not gonna enforce jaywalking" and "you are allowed to camp here", which from a municipal point of view is all they ever did.
I am not sure I see the legal angle here. I mean, you can sue the city, this is America, but I kinda doubt this is something that is easy to win.

Click to shrink...

Exactly, the city created this entire situation. I have no idea why people are letting the city off the hook here.

 

[GYODX]

People really take of their mask when the right topics comes along. Lot of people not as Left as they think and claim they are.

Click to shrink...

I'm not as "left" as you, but I'm also not a fascist or a fascist sympathizer like some here would suggest. Fucking get over yourself.

 

[TacomaSCDisaster]

Also I think the passion here and elsewhere has worn down after they changed


16 year old, and not mistaken for a shooter. Guess I'll still try and correct CHOP disinformation even after its dismantled.

Click to shrink...

Ah, I thought the younger of the two was killed? My mistake.

My understanding was that the security people were worried that an SUV driving erratically in Cal Anderson was the same SUV that had peeled through the area and opened fire a few hours earlier and that's why they shot to kill.

 

[Contramann]

I'm not as "left" as you, but I'm also not a fascist or a fascist sympathizer like some here would suggest. Fucking get over yourself.

Click to shrink...

Never said you were a facist but the fact that you're more defensive and reduce what I said to "WELL I'M NOT A NAZI" instead of thinking "Am I as left as I claim" is telling. Especially when the statement wasn't particularly aimed at you.

 

[GYODX]

Never said you were a facist but the fact that you're more defensive and reduce what I said to "WELL I'M NOT A NAZI" instead of thinking "Am I as left as I claim" is telling.

Click to shrink...

It's telling of what? Pray tell.

 

[Kthulhu]

Apparently in that specific area, there are very few gun issues over the course of a year. The situation the last week or so already saw a massive increase over the norm. So while there is a gun problem in the US, it's not like this aimless "zone" helped the situation at all.

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Neonazis have apparently repeatedly attempted to attack people there. I'm not saying it was problem free inside but for the most part it seems most people were not violent inside and most violence was coming from the outside.

 

[Distantmantra]

I have not seen them removing any tents, but there are way less tents there now, I suspect a lot of people just bolted when they saw the cops.

Click to shrink...

My neighbors had been camped out there for a couple weeks doing nighttime security, but they appear to have thrown in the towel and unloaded all their stuff in their yard starting Sunday evening.

 

[sangreal]

So, what? If people don't willfully ignore a truck with two black teenagers in it getting perforated by armed "security" to spare the blush of the wannabe-anarcho-socialists who decided setting up an adult pillow fort was more important than pushing the city for reasonable concessions, you're going to drop the Leftier Than Thou Card on us?

Fucking have it, man. I doubt anyone wants to be a part of what you're defining the "Left" as.

Click to shrink...

preach

 

[Veelk]

For anyone wants to write the CHAZ off as a failure, it's worth watching Thoughtslime's video on it that another poster already posted but is worth reiterating.



Like, people are framing it as if the CHAZ was intended to be a new, self-sustaining country within the US, when it was more of an experiment that everyone knew would end eventually, but were seeing how well the zone would work without police. I doubt anyone within the CHAZ thought it was going to last forever.

And it's worth noting that it's not like CHAZ was given a level playing field here. The interviewee will note how the cops fucked with the lives and safety of people from the outside to make things worse for them, with them basically forcing an opening for white supremacists to fire on crowds here.

But most importantly, it's worth noting something about the 3 deaths here - They are undoubtedly tragic and it's too bad that the CHAZ didn't have the resources it needed to prevent them. But if you think that's an indictment about the Chaz as a failure, consider this segment of the thoughtslime's video that fully contextualizes the deaths. Plenty of cities, in the same timeframe of the CHAZ was operational, matched or exceeded the deaths the CHAZ had. If CHAZ is supposed to be proof that the police are a mandated part of society, then what does it mean when Chicago has had 5 deaths to CHAZ's 3 deaths when they had police to prevent it?


The CHAZ was a fascinating experiment, but it was never going to last. And it certainly wasn't perfect by any means. But if you only look at it from the context of whether it justified the need for police, I don't think it the answer is a clear cut yes.

 

[Trouble]

For anyone wants to write the CHAZ off as a failure, it's worth watching Thoughtslime's video on it that another poster already posted but is worth reiterating.



Like, people are framing it as if the CHAZ was intended to be a new, self-sustaining country within the US, when it was more of an experiment that everyone knew would end eventually, but were seeing how well the zone would work without police. I doubt anyone within the CHAZ thought it was going to last forever.

And it's worth noting that it's not like CHAZ was given a level playing field here. The interviewee will note how the cops fucked with the lives and safety of people from the outside to make things worse for them, with them basically forcing an opening for white supremacists to fire on crowds here.

But most importantly, it's worth noting something about the 3 deaths here - They are undoubtedly tragic and it's too bad that the CHAZ didn't have the resources it needed to prevent them. But if you think that's an indictment about the Chaz as a failure, consider this segment of the thoughtslime's video that fully contextualizes the deaths. Plenty of cities, in the same timeframe of the CHAZ was operational, matched or exceeded the deaths the CHAZ had. If CHAZ is supposed to be proof that the police are a mandated part of society, then what does it mean when Chicago has had 5 deaths to CHAZ's 3 deaths when they had police to prevent it?


The CHAZ was a fascinating experiment, but it was never going to last. And it certainly wasn't perfect by any means. But if you only look at it from the context of whether it justified the need for police, I don't think it actually did.

Click to shrink...

Comparing a few blocks of a neighborhood that sees single digit numbers of shootings in a typical year to the entire city of Chicago is not a great argument to make.

 

[Hiphopopotamus]

But if you only look at it from the context of whether it justified the need for police, I don't think it actually did.

Click to shrink...

"We're statistically not quite as bad as the cops in not shooting people" isn't a ringing endorsement of your plan to re-imagine American policing

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I know plenty of people will point out the shootings but all that says to me is America has a gun problem.

Click to shrink...

Ok. Now keep going: Why does America have a gun problem? Historically.

 

[Royalan]

Some people are tired of Black lives being teachable moments.

I don't think anybody against CHOP in this thread is trying to make a meaningful argument for the police (in its current state, at least). But, it's frustrating that we can look at a car with 2 black teens being peppered with bullets and reduce it to, "Oh well, experiment's over! It didn't really work."

No fucking shit it didn't.

 

[Beren]

I get the idea of having this experiment, but it was never going to work because it doesn't exist in a vacuum. This small area of space, no matter what happens inside it, is surrounded by forces of economic, societal, and legal inequality and oppression. By trying to erect a small area free of those issues without any kind of long term plan or large scale population to resist those outside forces, those still living under those unequal and oppressive conditions outside will just try to vent their issues into that area.

Basically, this needed to be on a larger scale, like a city, that can have a different framework of laws and economy for everybody, and not just a small area that has a different mode of society than everything else around it.

 

[Veelk]

"We're statistically not quite as bad as the cops in not shooting people" isn't a ringing endorsement of your plan to re-imagine American policing

Click to shrink...

Sure. Just to be clear, I'm not saying the CHAZ doesn't have problems. And as a poster mentioned, this leans into the gun culture of America that isn't exclusive to the police. But if killings happen without the police at a comparable rate as to with the police, then what is the point of the police?

 

[Contramann]

It's telling of what? Pray tell.

Click to shrink...

I'm afraid you'll have to figure that out on your own.

That said, do you really think only Nazis are the people out there killing Black People or getting angry and violent at protestors?

 

[Z-Beat]

The willful sandbagging of black lives being lost to the failure of this zone in favor of "ARE YOU LEFT ENOUGH?!" is pretty indicative of the problem.

 

[bionic77]

I know plenty of people will point out the shootings but all that says to me is America has a gun problem.

Click to shrink...

Americans are stupid assholes and love guns.

I don't think that is going to change in our lifetimes. People love their guns more than they care about people getting hurt or shot.

 

[Sordid Plebeian]

Not sure how anyone thought this was going to be a good idea in the first place, I'd say it were an interesting "experiment" were it not for the shootings and other issues the place went through and were unequipped to handle.

 

[MechaMarmaset]

For anyone wants to write the CHAZ off as a failure, it's worth watching Thoughtslime's video on it that another poster already posted but is worth reiterating.



Like, people are framing it as if the CHAZ was intended to be a new, self-sustaining country within the US, when it was more of an experiment that everyone knew would end eventually, but were seeing how well the zone would work without police. I doubt anyone within the CHAZ thought it was going to last forever.

And it's worth noting that it's not like CHAZ was given a level playing field here. The interviewee will note how the cops fucked with the lives and safety of people from the outside to make things worse for them, with them basically forcing an opening for white supremacists to fire on crowds here.

But most importantly, it's worth noting something about the 3 deaths here - They are undoubtedly tragic and it's too bad that the CHAZ didn't have the resources it needed to prevent them. But if you think that's an indictment about the Chaz as a failure, consider this segment of the thoughtslime's video that fully contextualizes the deaths. Plenty of cities, in the same timeframe of the CHAZ was operational, matched or exceeded the deaths the CHAZ had. If CHAZ is supposed to be proof that the police are a mandated part of society, then what does it mean when Chicago has had 5 deaths to CHAZ's 3 deaths when they had police to prevent it?

Click to shrink...

CHOP was 6 blocks at its largest. You're comparing deaths in one of the largest cities in America to 6 blocks in Seattle.

This is not an indication on my opinion of CHOP. Just pointing out that is not a fair comparison. I'm also aware of the fact that CHOP did not exist in a vacuum and was inundated with alt-right agitators and other circumstances, but I don't think comparing it to the rate of other whole cities is a good argument.

 

[GYODX]

I'm afraid you'll have to figure that out on your own.

That said, do you really think only Nazis are the people out there killing Black People or getting angry at protestors?

Click to shrink...

You don't know anything about me, and I've decided to no longer give a fuck about proving my "progressive creds" to people who would call me a fascist/fascist sympathizer or that I'm letting the mask slip for not falling in line with everything they believe in. No. I'm not as left as you. So fucking what?

But I *will* take issue to people slyly suggesting I'm fascist, fascist-sympathizer, or some other flavor of awful, and then cowardly retreating to "I never called you a fascist, but if the shoe fits!"

 

[Chikor]

So, what? If people don't willfully ignore a truck with two black teenagers in it getting perforated by armed "security" to spare the blush of the wannabe-anarcho-socialists who decided setting up an adult pillow fort was more important than pushing the city for reasonable concessions, you're going to drop the Leftier Than Thou Card on us?

Fucking have it, man. I doubt anyone wants to be a part of what you're defining the "Left" as.

Click to shrink...

I think people define anarchism a bit differently in the US, but I could never see anything socialist or left about this shit.
I still don't know exactly what this shit is but it seem to be built around hyper individualism, which isn't exactly leftist POV.
This SeLf SuFfIcIeNt LARPing feels like Burning Man more than anything.

A socialist council member marched on the house of the mayor yesterday, but that got close to zero media attention, because fuck it, we're playing war correspondent make believe again today. It what gets the clicks. None of the people who tell bullshit stories about CHAZ online for clicks were there. They are never anywhere and I have not seen anyone who claim any sort of connection to this CHAZ shit do anything productive, ever.

p.s.
I am stealing "adult pillow fort" and there is nothing you can do to stop me.

 

[Hiphopopotamus]

Sure. Just to be clear, I'm not saying the CHAZ doesn't have problems. And as a poster mentioned, this leans into the gun culture of America that isn't exclusive to the police. But if killings happen without the police at a comparable rate as to with the police, then what is the point of the police?

Click to shrink...

Well, if your pitch is: "We will see the same amount of death with--or without--the police, but you're going to have masked gun-men that smell of Patchouli and have even less limits put on their use of force, you're not going to get many converts

 

[Contramann]

You don't know anything about me, and I've decided to no longer give a fuck about proving my "progressive creds" to people who would call me a fascist/fascist sympathizer for not falling in line with everything they believe in. No. I'm not as left as you. So fucking what?

But I *will* take issue to people slyly suggesting I'm fascist, fascist-sympathizer, or some other flavor of awful, and then cowardly retreating to "I never called you a fascist, but if the shoe fits!"

Click to shrink...

When did I say the shoe fits in any words? If you're this aggressively trying to defend yourself against a charge I never tossed at you at all then again as I said it says more about you than it does me. If you're so intent on "Not giving a fuck" about your creds, why did you post at all?

 

[Veelk]

CHOP was 6 blocks at its largest. You're comparing deaths in one of the largest cities in America to 6 blocks in Seattle.

This is not an indication on my opinion of CHOP. Just pointing out that is not a fair comparison. I'm also aware of the fact that CHOP did not exist in a vacuum and was inundated with alt-right agitators and other circumstances, but I don't think comparing it to the rate of other whole cities is a good argument.

Click to shrink...

Okay, that's fair. This is the only video that I've seen make such a comparison, but I realize thoughtslime is a casual leftist youtuber, so I'm hoping someone more academic can look at the data and analyze it in a more sophisticated and comparable way.

 

[Deleted member 9972]

Sure. Just to be clear, I'm not saying the CHAZ doesn't have problems. And as a poster mentioned, this leans into the gun culture of America that isn't exclusive to the police. But if killings happen without the police at a comparable rate as to with the police, then what is the point of the police?

Click to shrink...

The problem is that that's not a comparable rate per capita. Not even remotely close. Chicago has 2.7 million people.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Sure. Just to be clear, I'm not saying the CHAZ doesn't have problems. And as a poster mentioned, this leans into the gun culture of America that isn't exclusive to the police. But if killings happen without the police at a comparable rate as to with the police, then what is the point of the police?

Click to shrink...

eh, the past two to three weeks in CHAZ is roughly equivalent to the amount of shootings Capitol Hill sees in a year.

 

[Chikor]

For anyone wants to write the CHAZ off as a failure, it's worth watching Thoughtslime's video on it that another poster already posted but is worth reiterating.



Like, people are framing it as if the CHAZ was intended to be a new, self-sustaining country within the US, when it was more of an experiment that everyone knew would end eventually, but were seeing how well the zone would work without police. I doubt anyone within the CHAZ thought it was going to last forever.

And it's worth noting that it's not like CHAZ was given a level playing field here. The interviewee will note how the cops fucked with the lives and safety of people from the outside to make things worse for them, with them basically forcing an opening for white supremacists to fire on crowds here.

But most importantly, it's worth noting something about the 3 deaths here - They are undoubtedly tragic and it's too bad that the CHAZ didn't have the resources it needed to prevent them. But if you think that's an indictment about the Chaz as a failure, consider this segment of the thoughtslime's video that fully contextualizes the deaths. Plenty of cities, in the same timeframe of the CHAZ was operational, matched or exceeded the deaths the CHAZ had. If CHAZ is supposed to be proof that the police are a mandated part of society, then what does it mean when Chicago has had 5 deaths to CHAZ's 3 deaths when they had police to prevent it?


The CHAZ was a fascinating experiment, but it was never going to last. And it certainly wasn't perfect by any means. But if you only look at it from the context of whether it justified the need for police, I don't think it the answer is a clear cut yes.

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That video paints a really really skewed picture of what going on there, and I think you are going to get a really off impression about what it was like by watching it.
This shit is not worth having political takes on, it's a dumb occupy and all it achieved is sapping most of the protest energy in cap hill and take away all the media attention from actual protests that are still happening in the city.

 

[the_wart]

No I'm saying the city has an obligation to try and work things out with citizenry when they have legitimate grievances about the way they are being policed. The only reason the 'autonomous zone' even exists is because the mayor just let it happen. There were alternatives to CHOP, and the city did not pursue them in favor of letting this become a shitshow.

The city was never relieved of its obligation to provide services anyway because people are still paying for those services in the form of taxes and utility payments.

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I'll mostly agree with the first paragraph. But regarding the second point, by the same token the city also still had an obligation to enforce local laws within the zone. A particular slice of the city doesn't have line-item veto power over the social contract which binds the rest of the city in it's entirety*. The situation was incoherent. The only solutions were either the neighborhood actually become autonomous and stop paying taxes, or the city takes over again. The former was never going happen because, well, for a bajillion reasons, but for one thing I'm reasonably confident** that the people who live there and in the nearby neighborhoods would have vehemently opposed it.

Just to be clear, I'm not "cheering" the police dispersing the protesters by force. I hope the violence is minimal and that any abuse by the police is documented. I suspect that the possibility of this ending any other way had long-since passed, but maybe I'm wrong; maybe there was something the city government could have said or done even in the last few weeks to resolve the situation without sending in the cops.

*The obvious response is, "the social contract is broken in black neighborhoods, which is what caused this whole thing", and that is true and a travesty of justice. But this is why you will have a hard time convincing people to opt in to a breaking the social contract: living in a place where the social contract is broken sucks.

**No, I do not have any actual opinion polling data on this.

 

[Sanka]

What was their endgame?

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I think looking at CHOP as an 'experiment' instead of an example of a city government completely fucking up a response to legitimate protests is a really, really flawed view. People are dead because of the decisions made by the Mayor.

 

[Chikor]

What was their endgame?

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There isn't a "they" there.

It's just a block and a half in a rich white neighborhood that some hipsters decided to play weird occupy games in and then a tent city formed there because the only thing that keep poor people from pitching a tent in that park is the cops.

The people who used to hang out on the street at the evening will still hang out, the hot dog stands will probably have to move, and I assume the tents will move somewhere else too.
I suspect the handful of people who got internet clout from doing WaRtImE rEpOrTiNg FrOm WiThInG tHe ZoNe will try to keep it alive somehow, and I hope they fail.

 

[Nothing Loud]

Apparently in that specific area, there are very few gun issues over the course of a year. The situation the last week or so already saw a massive increase over the norm. So while there is a gun problem in the US, it's not like this aimless "zone" helped the situation at all.

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Exactly. I don't even go near the CHOP anymore and I used to be in that neighborhood all the time because it was relatively safe.