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SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
That wasn't my intention, nor what I think I did. One can unintentionally say transphobic things without being a transphobe.
Yeah it can happen but if you are making a claim someone here is being transphobic, intentional or otherwise, call out that specific example. Reply or PM. Allow the person a chance to clarify the situation. It would help the dialogue. I don't think anyone here wants to hurt the feelings of other folks.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,945
I don't see why birth certificates can't have "parent". Knowing who played which role in the reproductive process seems more necessary for medical documents instead of a birth certificate.

The Birth Certificate is used for legal means. And, who is the biological parent is a big deal as it comes with a whole host of legal rights and issues involving custody and citizenship.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I like "birthing parent" especially because it is unambiguous about what the field on the certificate is being used to represent in a way that "mother" is not.

As a corollary, somewhere down the line there WILL be a bureaucratic kerfuffle because the person being listed as mother has had their gender registered as male on some other form. Fuck, my (cis) mom never took my (cis) dad's last name and people had trouble parsing that fact in the fucking 90s and it absolutely came up in context of health insurance and medical care.
 

Worldres

Member
Mar 30, 2019
126
Yeah it can happen but if you are making a claim someone here is being transphobic, intentional or otherwise, call out that specific example. Reply or PM. Allow the person a chance to clarify the situation. It would help the dialogue. I don't think anyone here wants to hurt the feelings of other folks.

Ah, okay. I see what you mean. I do sincerely hope that it is the case that nobody is being hateful intentionally.

I'm just very upset by the insistence on calling trans men "mothers" here - it appeared to me like intentional misgendering. "Gestational parent" is the term I've seen used in the literature. No need to use "mother." I suppose I may be too close to the issue to not be overly sensitive to this discussion.

I'm very lucky to live in a place where this wouldn't happen, and it breaks my heart that Freddy is not.
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
Ah, okay. I see what you mean. I do sincerely hope that it is the case that nobody is being hateful intentionally.

I'm just very upset by the insistence on calling trans men "mothers" here - it appeared to me like intentional misgendering. "Gestational parent" is the term I've seen used in the literature. No need to use "mother." I suppose I may be too close to the issue to not be overly sensitive to this discussion.

I'm very lucky to live in a place where this wouldn't happen, and it breaks my heart that Freddy is not.
At the same time, I benefit from the fact that I am personally very distant from such issues. I'm sure there's turf in between us that we can walk down. And most other folks here.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
I like "birthing parent" especially because it is unambiguous about what the field on the certificate is being used to represent in a way that "mother" is not.

As a corollary, somewhere down the line there WILL be a bureaucratic kerfuffle because the person being listed as mother has had their gender registered as male on some other form. Fuck, my (cis) mom never took my (cis) dad's last name and people had trouble parsing that fact in the fucking 90s and it absolutely came up in context of health insurance and medical care.
Ah, okay. I see what you mean. I do sincerely hope that it is the case that nobody is being hateful intentionally.

I'm just very upset by the insistence on calling trans men "mothers" here - it appeared to me like intentional misgendering. "Gestational parent" is the term I've seen used in the literature. No need to use "mother." I suppose I may be too close to the issue to not be overly sensitive to this discussion.

I'm very lucky to live in a place where this wouldn't happen, and it breaks my heart that Freddy is not.


Birth certificates will eventually have to change with the times. The only argument against it is that "this is how it's always been." That argument isn't good enough. Gestational parent serves all the same purposes while not misgendering someone.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
17,906
Birth certificates will eventually have to change with the times. The only argument against it is that "this is how it's always been." That argument isn't good enough. Gestational parent serves all the same purposes while not misgendering someone.

Agreed. Just because something is tradition, doesn't make it right. It's an easy enough solution too.
 

WhoTurgled

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,052
I can't think of any reason to do this other than if you think its important to deny someone the right to self identify. Like why is it important that they are referred to as mother? Doing so benifits no one.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,948
This kind of stupid shit makes you wonder why people care so much about this kind of classification. Just let the dude be listed how he wants. Who's he hurting? The court is certainly hurting him.
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,988
The arguments against allowing a trans person to change their sex on a birth certificate are somethings I can't buy. I changed mine from M to F last year and I'm not even remotely close to being worried about issues at the hospital or with medical records. The actual medical records and history has indicated these changes in my past. Signed, a trans person who went through this.
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
User Banned (1 Month): Transphobia Over Multiple Posts in this Thread
The solution here about using the term "Birthing parent" would set a biological standard that I think most can get behind.

The problem in the story in the OP isn't hung around the terms used, but on a person's want to move from one box on the page to another. If they were granted their wish it wouldn't solve the issue folks have.

The problem here I think comes from the perception and use of birth certs. Some folks do not view it as a historical document and believe it should be updated to reflect a person's current situation.

I don't think birth certificates should ever be amended post-fact except in cases of extreme error. Going back to your birth cert and changing your gender or name should not be a thing. But I believe this is an issue about how birth certs are used and for what reason. Birth certs should not reflect your currently chosen identity.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
922
Hard to agree with tying the mother title to the person who gave birth.

Is a woman who adopts a child not a mother then? At least in the legal sense ?(of course, that would be ridiculous)
If a woman adopts a child she won't appear in the birth certificate. I think that the normative should be changed to give more flexibility to the parents but in any case you cannot compare it to adoptions.
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
Hmm sounds like they're just used to using conventional birth certificate language and don't care to update it to reflect the current times. Birthing parent sounds like an acceptable compromise though.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Yes-no. There are biological mothers vs. adoptive/performative mothers.

I can see the argument that on a birth certificate, the term is meant in the biological sense.

Equally the term "father" can be used both ways (as in, to father a child).

I agree that the system and definitions should be reviewed and probably changed, but it's probably unwise to deviate on an ad-hoc basis like this.
 

Steak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,327
The solution here about using the term "Birthing parent" would set a biological standard that I think most can get behind.

The problem in the story in the OP isn't hung around the terms used, but on a person's want to move from one box on the page to another. If they were granted their wish it wouldn't solve the issue folks have.

The problem here I think comes from the perception and use of birth certs. Some folks do not view it as a historical document and believe it should be updated to reflect a person's current situation.

I don't think birth certificates should ever be amended post-fact except in cases of extreme error. Going back to your birth cert and changing your gender or name should not be a thing. But I believe this is an issue about how birth certs are used and for what reason. Birth certs should not reflect your currently chosen identity.

That a person's gender was recorded as what they were assigned at birth and not the gender they actually are would be considered an extreme error by most people who are aware of trans issues. Having personal identification documents that all line up with each other is much more important that subscribing wholesale to the perception of some doctors when you were born.

Additionally, being trans is not a choice. We choose to update our birth certs to reflect our actual identity.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
Father was ruled not appropriate in this instance and parent is not an option.

So changing words here won't "fix" the issue.

Changing the words will fix the issue. Changing the law and procedure will fix the issue. This case can be the jumping off point.

These rules aren't hard and fast. They were made by people who didn't understand transpeople. They should be updated.
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
That a person's gender was recorded as what they were assigned at birth and not the gender they actually are would be considered an extreme error by most people who are aware of trans issues. Having personal identification documents that all line up with each other is much more important that subscribing wholesale to the perception of some doctors when you were born.

Additionally, being trans is not a choice. We choose to update our birth certs to reflect our actual identity.

I don't think using a birth cert is appropriate for determining/identifying gender. Surely there are better instruments for such a purpose? Like a medical card or statement?

Being trans is definitely never a choice. However, choosing to align your records with your identity contrary to the existing records, is definitely a choice - an important one for many.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,893
Going forward they should use the terms egg provider and sperm provider to clarify who the biological parents are, those terms would not allow for any confusion and could help clarify complex situations with surrogate parents
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
Changing the words will fix the issue. Changing the law and procedure will fix the issue. This case can be the jumping off point.

These rules aren't hard and fast. They were made by people who didn't understand transpeople. They should be updated.
This case would be an excellent starting point for such a push and I'd be happy to get behind it.

Using this case as justification to allow folks to edit their own records and certs against and variant from the currently understood and known format would only lead to confusion and mismatching records.

I think it's fair that we can agree change is needed on the issue.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
Using this case as justification to allow folks to edit their own records and certs against and variant from the currently understood and known format would only lead to confusion and mismatching records.

Mismatching records are exactly what this is causing.

This man's information all says he is a man. Yet this one piece of paper lists him as a mother. He isn't trying to change his own birth certificate, he is trying to list himself properly on his child's.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
922
Actually our kids are adopted and we are listed as the parents in the birth certificate, not the birth parents.
Well, I suppose that in different places they allow to different changes in the birth certificate but at that point I don't know if that paper deserves to be called birth certificate. It would be better to divide it in two documents one that details only the child that was born and other with the initial legal guardians of said child.
 

Red Liquorice

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,064
UK
Progress move slower than we often want. This is the first case I've heard of this kind in the media - it's relatively high profile here in the UK (at least I was aware of him prior to this). Even if it doesn't go their way this time the issue has been brought to the fore and that is a step forward.
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
Mismatching records are exactly what this is causing.

This man's information all says he is a man. Yet this one piece of paper lists him as a mother. He isn't trying to change his own birth certificate, he is trying to list himself properly on his child's.
So this person's records are more important than treating all the existing and future records fairly? The information on the birth cert is defined by precedent and expectation. If you want to change these rules then let's change them. Give everyone the opportunity equally.

We shouldn't let a person disregard how things are done because it doesn't suit them to follow along in a particular instance.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
So this person's records are more important than treating all the existing and future records fairly? The information on the birth cert is defined by precedent and expectation. If you want to change these rules then let's change them. Give everyone the opportunity equally.

We shouldn't let a person disregard how things are done because it doesn't suit them to follow along in a particular instance.

You are looking at this from a place of privilege. What is unfair is the government pretending to see this person as a man, but not really. This man should be listed as a man who gave birth. Period. Notice how calling a man a mother seems "more reasonable" than saying a father gave birth. These both seem out of the ordinary, yet the option that misgenders the parent is the chosen one.

I do not believe that "this is how things are, just go along with it." is a good argument.

This person may not be able to disregard the status quo (guess who that benefits) at this point. Which is really shitty. I hope that there will be a lot of noise caused by this case and things can change.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I don't think using a birth cert is appropriate for determining/identifying gender. Surely there are better instruments for such a purpose? Like a medical card or statement?

Being trans is definitely never a choice. However, choosing to align your records with your identity contrary to the existing records, is definitely a choice - an important one for many.

You're saying that this is an important choice for trans people to be able to make so that our records show align with our identity, but that we should not have access to it for reasons that bother you specifically. Why does what's on my birth certificate matter to you in any possible way and why should I care when you want to reduce the rights that trans people have?
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
You are looking at this from a place of privilege. What is unfair is the government pretending to see this person as a man, but not really. This man should be listed as a man who gave birth. Period. Notice how calling a man a mother seems "more reasonable" than saying a father gave birth. These both seem out of the ordinary, yet the option that misgenders the parent is the chosen one.

Biologically speaking mothers give birth. It's commonly understood and having something that implies a contradiction, without context, leads to confusion.

I do not believe that "this is how things are, just go along with it." is a good argument.

Great. That isn't my argument if it was, then I agree it wouldn't be a good one.

My argument is that, if folks feel there's a need to change an aspect of something important like a birth cert, then we shouldn't let one-off legal cases, won or lost, be used as justification for having rules confusingly amended and changed without notice and without establishing standards for the new rules so they can be applied equally and fairly - and we have a process to deal with retro-active and historical issues.

This person may not be able to disregard the status quo (guess who that benefits) at this point. Which is really shitty. I hope that there will be a lot of noise caused by this case and things can change.
I am all for changing the status quo. Please do not misrepresent my position. I feel the status quo in these cases needs a unified push for a resolution that can be fair and equal for everyone. So there's no misunderstanding, no accidents, no misinformation (I wish a perfect system could exist!).

Rules and precedent should not be modified on a case by case basis because, outside of the unique case, it can be damaging and harmful to others.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
Biologically speaking mothers give birth. It's commonly understood and having something that implies a contradiction, without context, leads to confusion.

In terms of language, a mother is a woman in relation to a child. You can keep saying that tomatoes are fruit biologically, but if we're talking about food we're going to use it like we do vegetables. A man can give birth, and there is no confusion, you know why? This case is a good example. A MAN gave BIRTH.

Great. That isn't my argument if it was, then I agree it wouldn't be a good one.

My argument is that, if folks feel there's a need to change an aspect of something important like a birth cert, then we shouldn't let one-off legal cases, won or lost, be used as justification for having rules confusingly amended and changed without notice and without establishing standards for the new rules so they can be applied equally and fairly - and we have a process to deal with retro-active and historical issues.

Confusing to cishets. The reason it is confusing is because the entire world is catered to us. If you remember that transmen are men and are capable of giving birth, then you realize how not confusing it is.


it can be damaging and harmful to others.

You keep saying this. Who is harmed by saying that a man is a child's father?

By definition, the man here gave birth. By relation, that person is the child's father. You don't want anyone to be hurt, but seem to ignore that this man is being hurt by erroneously being misgendered and called a woman.
 
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SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
You're saying that this is an important choice for trans people to be able to make so that our records show align with our identity, but that we should not have access to it for reasons that bother you specifically. Why does what's on my birth certificate matter to you in any possible way and why should I care when you want to reduce the rights that trans people have?
I am not in any way saying what you are implying I am saying. Sorry.

Why do you think I am proposing to ban trans folks from having access to anything? Absurd.
Do you think it bothers me somehow that trans folks have access to their own records? That's absurd too.

Fuck off saying I want to reduce anyone's rights. Can we have a discussion without wild claims and hyperbole? You will be calling me Hitler next. Please don't.

I am going to assume you aren't trolling me here, hopefully.
 

Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
User Banned (Permanent): Transphobia Over Multiple Posts in this Thread; Prior Severe Ban for Xenophobia and Numerous Bans for Hostilty and Trolling
You are looking at this from a place of privilege. What is unfair is the government pretending to see this person as a man, but not really. This man should be listed as a man who gave birth. Period. Notice how calling a man a mother seems "more reasonable" than saying a father gave birth. These both seem out of the ordinary, yet the option that misgenders the parent is the chosen one.

I do not believe that "this is how things are, just go along with it." is a good argument.

This person may not be able to disregard the status quo (guess who that benefits) at this point. Which is really shitty. I hope that there will be a lot of noise caused by this case and things can change.

It's not possible for a man to give birth on a biological level so I guess that's what they've judged on rather than the parental role he's playing.
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
You keep saying this. Who is harmed by saying that a man is a child's father?
It's not "someone saying". The birth cert is important. You know this. Keeping the information on there consistent is important.

Mother should not mean one thing on one person's birth cert and mean something else on another. That is confusing and will cause problems. If we want to implement changes, and most of us do - seemingly, then it must be on a full basis of including everyone, all records, updating standards for new records, and not on a case by case basis.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I am not in any way saying what you are implying I am saying. Sorry.

Why do you think I am proposing to ban trans folks from having access to anything? Absurd.
Do you think it bothers me somehow that trans folks have access to their own records? That's absurd too.

Fuck off saying I want to reduce anyone's rights. Can we have a discussion without wild claims and hyperbole? You will be calling me Hitler next. Please don't.

I am going to assume you aren't trolling me here, hopefully.

You have repeatedly insisted that trans people should not be allowed to change their birth certificates.

I don't think birth certificates should ever be amended post-fact except in cases of extreme error. Going back to your birth cert and changing your gender or name should not be a thing. But I believe this is an issue about how birth certs are used and for what reason. Birth certs should not reflect your currently chosen identity.

I don't think using a birth cert is appropriate for determining/identifying gender. Surely there are better instruments for such a purpose? Like a medical card or statement?

This specific story takes place in the UK which has this in place :


Aka, trans people already have access to being able to change their birth certificate to match our identities, and you're advocating against it for some strange reason like it will do harm to others or ourselves in some way. You take it even further and say that trans people should not be able to change our names on it either, so that we have to maintain a permanent unchanging record that continuously deadnames and misgenders us. I'm not sure how you can see this as anything but trying to take away access to records that trans people already have when you keep saying it shouldn't be allowed or done.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
It's not possible for a man to give birth on a biological level so I guess that's what they've judged on rather than the parental role he's playing.

So you do not believe this man is a man. Gotcha.

It's not "someone saying". The birth cert is important. You know this. Keeping the information on there consistent is important.

Mother should not mean one thing on one person's birth cert and mean something else on another. That is confusing and will cause problems. If we want to implement changes, and most of us do - seemingly, then it must be on a full basis of including everyone, all records, updating standards for new records, and not on a case by case basis.

Mother means one thing. A woman in relation to a child. That wouldn't be changing here. You are the one asking for it to change in this particular situation in which a man gave birth.

You also didn't answer who would be harmed here. You're the one who said it could be harming or damaging to others if this man is listed as a father on their child's birth certificate. Who exactly would that be?
 

Steak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,327
It's not "someone saying". The birth cert is important. You know this. Keeping the information on there consistent is important.

Mother should not mean one thing on one person's birth cert and mean something else on another. That is confusing and will cause problems. If we want to implement changes, and most of us do - seemingly, then it must be on a full basis of including everyone, all records, updating standards for new records, and not on a case by case basis.

Important how?
Consistent with what?

Do you even know what happens when the information on someone's birth cert is updated?

Your input to this thread seems to come from a place of ignorance and privilege and I think it would be valuable for you to take a step back and read what people who have experience and knowledge in this area have to say.
 

SlightlyLive

QA
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
756
Northern Ireland
You have repeatedly insisted that trans people should not be allowed to change their birth certificates.

I repeatedly said nobody should be allowed to change it. Doesn't matter if you are trans or anyone. Are you trying to reframe the intended meaning of my words with your interpretation?

Aka, trans people already have access to being able to change their birth certificate to match our identities, and you're advocating against it for some strange reason like it will do harm to others or ourselves in some way. You take it even further and say that trans people should not be able to change our names on it either, so that we have to maintain a permanent unchanging record that continuously deadnames and misgenders us. I'm not sure how you can see this as anything but trying to take away access to records that trans people already have when you keep saying it shouldn't be allowed or done.
I am from and live in the UK and I am familiar with what you can and cannot do legally with your birth cert.

Can you please point out where I specifically said trans folks, explicitly just trans folks, should be restricted as you claim that I am saying.

I am not, NOT, saying anyone should tolerate deadnaming or misgendering. If you insist on repeating these incorrect claims about my argument, I will seek out a moderator to step in. I really, really don't appreciate it. Misrepresenting what I am saying (just scroll up and read again) is not in good faith here.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
I repeatedly said nobody should be allowed to change it. Doesn't matter if you are trans or anyone. Are you trying to reframe the intended meaning of my words with your interpretation?


I am from and live in the UK and I am familiar with what you can and cannot do legally with your birth cert.

Can you please point out where I specifically said trans folks, explicitly just trans folks, should be restricted as you claim that I am saying.

I am not, NOT, saying anyone should tolerate deadnaming or misgendering. If you insist on repeating these incorrect claims about my argument, I will seek out a moderator to step in. I really, really don't appreciate it. Misrepresenting what I am saying (just scroll up and read again) is not in good faith here.

Come on man.

Who but transpeople would ever need to change their birth certificate? This is a distinction without a difference. When would a cis person ever need to make a change?

Nobody should be allowed, when primarily (only?) trans people feel the need to may as well is essentially the same thing. Not changing them would be misgendering and deadnaming to transpeople, but those terms mean nothing to cis people.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I repeatedly said nobody should be allowed to change it. Doesn't matter if you are trans or anyone. Are you trying to reframe the intended meaning of my words with your interpretation?


I am from and live in the UK and I am familiar with what you can and cannot do legally with your birth cert.

Can you please point out where I specifically said trans folks, explicitly just trans folks, should be restricted as you claim that I am saying.

I am not, NOT, saying anyone should tolerate deadnaming or misgendering. If you insist on repeating these incorrect claims about my argument, I will seek out a moderator to step in. I really, really don't appreciate it. Misrepresenting what I am saying (just scroll up and read again) is not in good faith here.

This is an issue that predominantly affects trans people, and to try and pretend that this would not disproportionately affect us is misguided at best. There's a reason that the Gender Recognition Act had to be made, and there's a reason that people want to challenge this case, as these are issues that greatly impact us as trans people more than they do cis people.

I currently live in the US, and I am unable to change my birth certificate. The cis people who are born in my state who face the same restrictions aren't bothered by it because they don't need to change theirs like trans people do. And whether you intend it or not, you are advocating for misgendering and deadnaming as acceptable if it comes from the government. The government is allowed to sit down and say "You were born as John Adam Smith, Male and nothing will let you change this" in the scenario where birth certificates can not be changed.

You are genuinely looking at this from a place of massive privilege and you need to consider why you're getting the pushback that you have been and why trans people are constantly advocating for the right to be able to change our documents as needed.

Let's look at it from this perspective as well, you feel that no one should be able to change their birth certificate. What would you do to the Gender Recognition Act that is explicitly made for trans people?