'Seahorse' transgender man loses challenge to be named father.

[MadMod]

"A transgender man, who has given birth to a child and does not want to be described as "mother" on a birth certificate, has lost a legal battle.

Freddy McConnell wanted to be registered as "father" or "parent".

But a High Court judge ruled the status of "mother" was afforded to a person who carries and gives birth to a baby.

He said while Mr McConnell's gender was recognised by law as male, his parental status of "mother" derives from the biological role of giving birth.

Mr McConnell, a journalist at the Guardian, has told the BBC he plans to appeal against the ruling.

During the trial in London, the High Court heard how Mr McConnell was a single parent, who was born a woman but now lived as a man following surgery.

He was biologically able to get pregnant and gave birth to a baby boy last year, but had legally become a man by the time of the birth.

Mr McConnell's journey to parenthood was documented in a film called Seahorse and included his thoughts and footage of him going through fertility treatment, conception and the birth of his baby boy..." More at the link

Click to shrink...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49828705

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

Hard to agree with tying the mother title to the person who gave birth.

Is a woman who adopts a child not a mother then? At least in the legal sense ?(of course, that would be ridiculous)

 

[MadMod]

Hard to agree with tying the mother title to the person who gave birth.

Is a woman who adopts a child not a mother then?

Click to shrink...

Exactly, it's only a term, it means so much to him to be called "father", yet it's being denied, it's the role you play in their life, not who gave birth.

 

[Mona]

Seems like something that comes from tradition more than anything else

 

[Odesu]

Good ol' "We always did it this way, so it's self-evident that this is the only right way"-reasoning. He even asked for being simple called "Parent", come on.

 

[Wilf Netherton]

For many good reasons the state should have records of who the birthing parent is. I see no reason they have to use the term "mother" on the forms, however.

 

[MadMod]

Good ol' "We always did it this way, so it's self-evident that this is the only right way"-reasoning. He even asked for being simple called "Parent", come on.

Click to shrink...

That's the upsetting thing, he was willing to compromise and still no...

 

[Illusion]

Genetically they are the child's birth parent, we should be able to list them as just that. It's annoying that they were willing to even compromise to just Parent.

 

[Baji Boxer]

Need to just change it to something like "birthing parent" if you need that info on the birth certificate. It's pretty unambiguous.

 

[jon bones]

mothers give birth - it's pretty clear to me

 

[Tathanen]

Guarantee some DBA just doesn't want to have to fuck with the birth registry schema.

 

[PtM]

mothers give birth - it's pretty clear to me

Click to shrink...

Yes-no. There are biological mothers vs. adoptive/performative mothers.

I can see the argument that on a birth certificate, the term is meant in the biological sense.

 

[Starphanluke]

mothers give birth - it's pretty clear to me

Click to shrink...

But there's no reason it HAS to say "mother." Especially since people have pointed out in this thread that there are plenty of compromises that are even more accurate.

Are mothers who adopt not technically mothers? What about those who use a surrogate? The terms "mother" and "father" are just that--terms. They needn't be--and aren't--strict legal codes.

 

[Deleted member 41638]

I don't see why birth certificates can't have "parent". Knowing who played which role in the reproductive process seems more necessary for medical documents instead of a birth certificate.

 

[Steak]

For many good reasons the state should have records of who the birthing parent is. I see no reason they have to use the term "mother" on the forms, however.

Click to shrink...

I can think of reasons that it might be important for doctors to know who the parent that birthed you was, but I honestly can't think of any reason that the state would need to know that.

The claim that mother and father have been gendered terms until now and suddenly they are not and actually they refer to the "biological role" you play in the conception/birth of a child is nonsense. There are so many mothers and fathers that didn't give birth or didn't do whatever this judge would consider the act that makes you a father that this ruling erases as mothers and fathers.

 

[Deleted member 21709]

mothers give birth - it's pretty clear to me

Click to shrink...

Plenty of people have children and should not be called mother/father.

 

[Steak]

double post oops

 

[TechnicPuppet]

Think there might be medical reasons why it's important to know the birth mother. However, they can call it whatever the fuck they like. He could have Father (X) on the birth certificate with X being a medical term that denotes he carried and gave birth to the child. Or just put father and have another part of the birth certificate have that detail.

 

[nekomix]

Well, that's justice, not lawmaking. Nothing much to add, that person need the law to be changed and only a "supreme Court" kind of ruling can change the law right ?

Edit: it's already High Court, missed that detail. So... Good luck for changing the law with the parliament ^^

 

[8byte]

Are there any medical reasons why this could be important? i.e. Needing to be able to identify potential genetic conditions or what have you that are carried by the birthing parent? I'm not asking to justify any decision here, I'm asking for my own education & understanding (if that wasn't clear).

 

[808s & Villainy]

Plenty of people have children and should not be called mother/father.

Click to shrink...

This is referring to the title on the birth certificate. The court says they recognize his gender, but "mother" on the certificate simply refers to the person who gave birth to them.

It's a bit messy when you look up birth certificate rules for adoption and surrogacy (which I did out of curiosity), because they seem to vary in terms of who they list as the mother for, what I assume, are similar reasons (the parent who birthed the child)

 

[Deleted member 3093]

mothers give birth - it's pretty clear to me

Click to shrink...

Men and women can both give birth, and mother is inherently gendered female.

 

[Tabaxi]

The claim that mother and father have been gendered terms until now and suddenly they are not and actually they refer to the "biological role" you play in the conception/birth of a child is nonsense.

Click to shrink...

The issue is that we're talking about the word "mother" in two wildly different contexts. .

Granted, you could (and probably should) separate it into "maternal line parent" for medical/genetic purposes and just father/parent for legal purposes.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

It's unfortunate that they couldn't compromise.

The article implies he had his transition during pregnancy. It would be interesing to know more about how that surgery is safely possible while pregnant and how he actually gave birth. I'll have to look up that documentary.

 

[SlightlyLive]

Knowing your biological father and mother makes sense from a health perspective, certain genetic factors and risks along with the family history are very important to keep track. There needs to be a clear record, if possible, for the child's benefit.

 

[SugarNoodles]

Knowing your biological father and mother makes sense from a health perspective, certain genetic factors and risks along with the family history are very important to keep track. There needs to be a clear record, if possible, for the child's benefit.

Click to shrink...

Have you ever given your doctor your birth certificate for medical reasons?

 

[SlightlyLive]

Have you ever given your doctor your birth certificate for medical reasons?

Click to shrink...

Nope, but my birth cert is pretty useless since it only lists my biological mother. Pretty sure that info was also carried over into my medical records after my birth, so the cert isn't needed.

 

[SugarNoodles]

Nope, but my birth cert is pretty useless since it only lists my biological mother. Pretty sure that info was also carried over into my medical records after my birth, so the cert isn't needed.

Click to shrink...

Sounds like it wouldn't matter at all if your trans father were listed as your father on your birth certificate.

 

[Wilf Netherton]

Sounds like it wouldn't matter at all if your trans father were listed as your father on your birth certificate.

Click to shrink...

Yes, it absolutely does, because it undermines epidemiological data collection into obstetrics that are very important for both broad medical research and for policy making. All of the statistics regarding birth mortality rates are grounded in this data, for example.

 

[SlightlyLive]

Sounds like it wouldn't matter at all if your trans father were listed as your father on your birth certificate.

Click to shrink...

To me? Now? Maybe, maybe not. But what about in future with kids, grandkids? They won't have access to my medical records. Birth certs are pretty much public records and the health of my family in future, when I'm not around or available, might rely on the accuracy of the information listed there.

My own birth cert is missing important info. I don't have a full and accurate picture of my family tree and genetic map. Luckily this lack hasn't impacted me much, but it could have.

Yes, it absolutely does, because it undermines epidemiological data collection into obstetrics that are very important for both broad medical research and for policy making. All of the statistics regarding birth mortality rates are grounded in this data, for example.

Click to shrink...

I've kept the scope of my responses to myself and my family, but you are right about the broader and wider impact of the importance of this data.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Sounds like it wouldn't matter at all if your trans father were listed as your father on your birth certificate.

Click to shrink...

Except when tracking defects on the X or Y chromosome. It's vital to know that history since it can explain whether it's a defect from your particular genetic mutation or an inherited issue(at least for biological males.) For biological females, this is less true since the you get an X chromosome from both parents. Either way, complete accurate medical history for both parents can be the difference between someone surviving life-threatening disease or dying.

 

[SugarNoodles]

Except when tracking defects on the X or Y chromosome. It's vital to know that history since it can explain whether it's a defect from your particular genetic mutation or an inherited issue(at least for biological males.) For biological females, this is less true since the you get an X chromosome from both parents. Either way, complete accurate medical history for both parents can be the difference between someone surviving life-threatening disease or dying.

Click to shrink...

I'm confused. In what way would this result in not having an accurate medical history for the parents?

 

[mugurumakensei]

I'm confused. In what way would this result in not having an accurate medical history for the parents?

Click to shrink...

fo biological males, any issues originating from the maternal line would be hard to track without knowing the biological mother(hint if an issue pops up and they're looking for markers based on the father listed on the birth certificate, doctors would be looking for genetic markers on the Y chromosome)

 

[jon bones]

Men and women can both give birth, and mother is inherently gendered female.

Click to shrink...

how do human men give birth?

 

[Lundren]

how do human men give birth?

Click to shrink...

Transmen are men.

 

[TheMango55]

I don't see why they can't list it as "maternal line parent" or something. Seems pointlessly traditionalist.

Anyway, here's a photo of Freddy McConnal explaining his birth certificate to his son in a few years.

 

[Lundren]

Seems pointlessly traditionalist.

Click to shrink...

I feels like saying, "Yeah, we'll call you a man, but we all know you're a woman. We're just humoring you."

 

[Mib]

Transmen are men.

Click to shrink...

In gender, not in sex. In this context, the categorical biological definitions of male and female are relevant and important, and are what the term refers to. Not the gender or any other personal aspects of the of the participants identity.

The distinction between sex and gender is relevant, while it sucks to be misgendered, that's not what's actually happening here.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

It's a birth certificate, not a medical document. Not even accepting the compromise of parent is just psychological cruelty and shows the judge doesn't actually think McConnell is a man. Which is. You know. Transphobic.

Even if it was a medical document, just use like, "XY Parent" or "XX Parent". Or something. Fucksake. But it's not, so the a qualifier shouldn't be needed at fucking all. Is he a parent? Yes? What's the term for parent who is a man? Father. So he's his kid's father. Doesn't matter that he carried them rather than sired them.

In gender, not in sex. In this context, the categorical biological definitions of male and female are relevant and important, and are what the term refers to. Not the gender or any other personal aspects of the of the participants identity.

The distinction between sex and gender is relevant, while it sucks to be misgendered, that's not what's actually happening here.

Click to shrink...

It's 100% what's happening here, though.

It's. A. Birth. Certificate. Not a medical document. It's inaccurate to call a man a mother, period. There's no point in identifying "biological sex" outside of a doctor's office. Period.

 

[SlightlyLive]

Changing the names of terms won't solve much. We all have a paternal parent and maternal parent. It's how it is. Birth certs are a public record of biological and statistical data. Or they should be.

Foster parents and non-biological folks should not be listed, especially not retroactively. That would also include folks that change their gender. I am happy to respect how folks wish to be addressed or presented as but trying to alter biological records in this manner only serve to harm them.

 

[molnizzle]

Need to just change it to something like "birthing parent" if you need that info on the birth certificate. It's pretty unambiguous.

Click to shrink...

Yeah. No reason it couldn't just be this.

 

[Steak]

Changing the names of terms won't solve much. We all have a paternal parent and maternal parent. It's how it is. Birth certs are a public record of biological and statistical data. Or they should be.

Foster parents and non-biological folks should not be listed, especially not retroactively. That would also include folks that change their gender. I am happy to respect how folks wish to be addressed or presented as but trying to alter biological records in this manner only serve to harm them.

Click to shrink...

Haha too late I've already retroactively adjusted my biological record and there's nothing you can do about it. You're behind the times my dude.

 

[Worldres]

Very shocked and disappointed at the transphobic replies in this thread.

Day-ruining news to me; as a transgender man who also wants to carry his own child, my heart breaks for Freddy. I saw the documentary he participated in and was so profoundly moved. I just... don't get why this is such a hard concept for people to understand.

I'm also an epidemiologist so people in here talking about how medicine needs to be transphobic in order to conduct research have no idea what they are talking about. Discussing gestational parents without using their gender is a well-understood concept in modern medicine. Stop.

 

[MisterR]

He's the child's biological mother. That's what goes on the birth certificate.

 

[HammerOfThor]

But this is only for the birth certificate, right? Just in the context of that, the "mother" is who gave birth. If you're adopting a child at birth, I'm assuming the mother is still listed at the one who gave birth? Just in the context of the birth certificate, I can't say I disagree with this. Unless I'm missing something?

 

[SugarNoodles]

fo biological males, any issues originating from the maternal line would be hard to track without knowing the biological mother(hint if an issue pops up and they're looking for markers based on the father listed on the birth certificate, doctors would be looking for genetic markers on the Y chromosome)

Click to shrink...

So it's a complete nonissue if it's in the medical record yes?

 

[Lundren]

Very shocked and disappointed at the transphobic replies in this thread.

Click to shrink...

I'm disappointed but not shocked.

There are a lot of casual and subtle transphobes on this forum.

 

[Pluto]

Transmen are men.

Click to shrink...

Biologically they're still female though.

 

[SlightlyLive]

Very shocked and disappointed at the transphobic replies in this thread.

Day-ruining news to me; as a transgender man who also wants to carry his own child, my heart breaks for Freddy. I saw the documentary he participated in and was so profoundly moved. I just... don't get why this is such a hard concept for people to understand.

I'm also an epidemiologist so people in here talking about how medicine needs to be transphobic in order to conduct research have no idea what they are talking about. Discussing gestational parents without using their gender is a well-understood concept in modern medicine. Stop.

Click to shrink...

Do you mind not baselessly and blanketly calling folks that don't share your opinion transphobic?

I'm disappointed but not shocked.

There are a lot of casual and subtle transphobes on this forum.

Click to shrink...

Feel free to call out or report transphobia. Subtle or not. The mods here do a good job but tone policing on their behalf isn't appropriate.

 

[Worldres]

Do you mind not baselessly and blanketly calling folks that don't share your opinion transphobic?

Click to shrink...

That wasn't my intention, nor what I think I did. One can unintentionally say transphobic things without being a transphobe.

Freddy isn't the child's mother; he's his father.