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Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
The prorogation looked like a blunder before today. Now it looks like Johnson and Cummings pulled the pin on a grenade and dropped it in their own laps.

If the Supreme Court does anything other than squash this outright, the prorogation will be the biggest blunder a government has made in the modern age... apart from the referendum itself, obviously.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,108
London
I for one welcome our new Scottish overlords.

Got a date with a Scottish girl on Friday. AHEAD OF THE GAME.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Let's see how the Express is handling this...

"All hell's broken loose in Yellowstone"

Uh-huh...
 

trudderham

Member
Nov 9, 2017
86
If the Queen can't trust her PM, then I have no idea what's going to happen next. I don't think this has ever happened in the history of the monarch. I wonder if the Queen can disband the government and force an election?
 

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,256
Honestly what does it even matter. Our government have no interest in the law and are very clearly above it. Courts could literally rule Boris must be executed and the next day hed still be sitting in no 10 screaming Cummings demands around for him
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
If Johnson cared at all about the office he currently holds or the state of democracy in the UK, he would immediately recall parliament, regardless of what happens in the supreme court next week.

Decisions that suspend parliament for any reason have to be totally, unquestionably legally bulletproof. This prorogation being ruled illegal by any court at any level in any portion of the UK should be grounds for it to be immediately ended.

I think everyone's assessment will be that Johnson won't recall parliament, but that he won't will just deepen this crisis.

So is the Queen gonna boot out Johnson or no
No, the Queen is an almost completely ceremonial head of state and will stay out of this to whatever extent is possible.

So when's Scotland gonna leave the UK to stay with the EU? Will that happen?
It's now too late for Scotland to leave the UK and stay in the EU. Any Scottish independence referendum would be some time in 2020 at the earliest. If independence won and the timetable in the white paper written by the SNP before the 2014 referendum was followed, Scotland would be independent some time in 2022 or later. Unless the UK had cancelled Brexit by then, an independent Scotland would be outside the EU, and would need to rejoin.

(That would not be a terribly difficult step as it would only need Scotland to realign with EU law and prove that it was compliant with the Copenhagen criteria, but it'd still take another few years).

So how far off are we from canceling Brexit?
As far as yesterday.

The UK can cancel Brexit in a few penstrokes, but it needs the right person to be holding the pen. Johnson certainly isn't that person. Corbyn might be, but getting him into that position requires a general election, a Labour-led government as a result, and then another referendum in which the Remain option wins.

Alternatively a majority-Lib-Dem government would revoke instantly, but if you ran the next election a million times you probably wouldn't get a Lib Dem majority.

Those of you who are saying that recent events mean that this won't go anywhere are talking nonsense.

This is totally constitutionally unprecedented, and not a soul knows how this is going to go. Never once in our history have the courts found that the PM has lied to the monarch before today.
Yep, amongst all the confusion about this, the best thing anyone can point out is that there's nobody with real answers. There's too many things happening too quickly and too many variables for anyone to be certain about the outcome of this process of even the consequences of individual events.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
The Government realises it can break the law and do whatever it likes and is being cheered on by a large portion of the population and most of the media and tabloids. Even well intentioned cases like this won't make much difference.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,093
Hull, UK
If the Queen can't trust her PM, then I have no idea what's going to happen next. I don't think this has ever happened in the history of the monarch. I wonder if the Queen can disband the government and force an election?

She has the power to fire the PM. That was last used in 1834 though, and would be slightly controversial to use these days.
 

offshore

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,052
UK
Yeah... nothing will happen.

And in fact all it will likely do is further drive a wedge between the English and the Scots. Our Union is over. lol.
 
Jun 2, 2018
812
Northern Ireland
I can't imagine anything will happen. They do not care about the law. They've repeatedly done things that fall into criminality, and no one has done anything.

I expect an election tainted by underhanded tactics. We should have legalislated to prevent our electoral laws being rode over roughshod. They are extremely vulnerable now.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
Struggling to see why people are being blasé about the potential for the government to ignore a potential finding of the Supreme Court that the Prime Minister is lying, as if they've done anything that nakedly autocratic yet.

This whole shoulder-shrugging, "well, nothing will happen!" bullshit is completely out of whack with how serious and unprecedented the current situation is.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,279
Those of you who are saying that recent events mean that this won't go anywhere are talking nonsense.

This is totally constitutionally unprecedented, and not a soul knows how this is going to go. Never once in our history have the courts found that the PM has lied to the monarch before today.
Struggling to see why people are being blasé about the potential for the government to ignore a potential finding of the Supreme Court that the Prime Minister is lying, as if they've done anything that nakedly autocratic yet.

This whole shoulder-shrugging, "well, nothing will happen!" bullshit is completely out of whack with how serious and unprecedented the current situation is.

Lets say the UK Supreme Court does agree with the ruling (which is unlikely), what avenues are there for something to actually happen based on that? It's unprecedented, sure, but that doesn't mean it'll be more than just another bad headline (for Boris and for 'the Remoaners' alike).
 

Tugatrix

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,260
giphy.gif


Opsi Boris created an even bigger mess than Theresa, if this is upholded on supreme my guess is that he'll have to go to Brussels beg for more time
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
Lets say the UK Supreme Court does agree with the ruling (which is unlikely), what avenues are there for something to actually happen based on that? It's unprecedented, sure, but that doesn't mean it'll be more than just another bad headline (for Boris and for 'the Remoaners' alike).
The prorogation would likely be declared null and void by the courts, and Johnson would either be forced to offer his resignation or theoretically even be impeached by Parliament.

I don't know that I'd say that it's necessarily unlikely that the Supreme Court agrees with the ruling (my understanding is that they also have to consider Scottish law, in addition to English and Welsh), but the consequences would be absolutely dire for Johnson and the Tories as a whole.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,279
The prorogation would likely be declared null and void by the courts, and Johnson would either be forced to offer his resignation or theoretically even be impeached by Parliament.

I don't know that I'd say that it's necessarily unlikely that the Supreme Court agrees with the ruling (my understanding is that they also have to consider Scottish law, in addition to English and Welsh), but the consequences would be absolutely dire for Johnson and the Tories as a whole.

I can understand that the Prorogation would be halted, and that would be something, but when it comes to Johnson who would force his resignation? And, even if he did resign, how would that actually change anything when the Tories can just get another power-hungry idiot to step up to the proverbial firing line?

I mean, I can get that it's very important, but we've seen with both Trump and Brexit that what's "legal" matters fuck all to these sorts of people. It's really hard not to get disillusioned when another 'silver bullet' shows up promising to actually change things for the better.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
I can understand that the Prorogation would be halted, and that would be something, but when it comes to Johnson who would force his resignation? And, even if he did resign, how would that actually change anything when the Tories can just get another power-hungry idiot to step up to the proverbial firing line?

I mean, I can get that it's very important, but we've seen with both Trump and Brexit that what's "legal" matters fuck all to these sorts of people. It's really hard not to get disillusioned when another 'silver bullet' shows up promising to actually change things for the better.
The majority in parliament.

And they likely will very soon. Just not until No Deal is punted.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
I can understand that the Prorogation would be halted, and that would be something, but when it comes to Johnson who would force his resignation? And, even if he did resign, how would that actually change anything when the Tories can just get another power-hungry idiot to step up to the proverbial firing line?
In this scenario, you'd see huge swathes of the cabinet and the Parliamentary Conservative Party quitting the government or the party. If Johnson didn't resign, you'd see a Vote of No Confidence faster than blinking, and likely an election with a former Prime Minister found by the courts to have lied to the Queen in charge of the Tories swift on its heels. It'd be a bloodbath, and the party wouldn't allow such a scenario to take place- the 1922 committee would almost certainly step in at that point.

The Tories could get whoever they liked to step up to the plate after that- it wouldn't change the profound damage done to the party.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,279
The majority in parliament.

And they likely will very soon. Just not until No Deal is punted.

In this scenario, you'd see huge swathes of the cabinet and the Parliamentary Conservative Party quitting the government or the party. If Johnson didn't resign, you'd see a Vote of No Confidence faster than blinking, and likely an election with a former Prime Minister found by the courts to have lied to the Queen in charge of the Tories swift on its heels. It'd be a bloodbath, and the party wouldn't allow such a scenario to take place- the 1922 committee would almost certainly step in at that point.

The Tories could get whoever they liked to step up to the plate after that- it wouldn't change the profound damage done to the party.

What's stopping Boris from ignoring a VoNC? The only route would be impeachment but I'm not even sure how that's done or whether it would be possible.

As for it being a bloodbath, well that could happen but I just can't see it being that big of a deal as to finally hurt the Tories enough for them to actually see a loss in power.

Of course right now this all depends on whether the UKSC agrees with the decision. If they don't then the Tories can just easily go "those biased Remoaner scots," and move on with their days.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
What's stopping Boris from ignoring a VoNC? The only route would be impeachment but I'm not even sure how that's done or whether it would be possible.

As for it being a bloodbath, well that could happen but I just can't see it being that big of a deal as to finally hurt the Tories enough for them to actually see a loss in power.

Of course right now this all depends on whether the UKSC agrees with the decision. If they don't then the Tories can just easily go "those biased Remoaner scots," and move on with their days.
If Parliament successfully hold a vote of no confidence in the government, it forces an election one way or another.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
What's stopping Boris from ignoring a VoNC? The only route would be impeachment but I'm not even sure how that's done or whether it would be possible.
Boris ignoring a VoNC would likely eventually end up with him being marched out of 10 Downing Street in handcuffs.

It results in 14 days to form a new government, failing which there'll be an election. Johnson turtling up would just end up seeing him turfed out.

As for it being a bloodbath, well that could happen but I just can't see it being that big of a deal as to finally hurt the Tories enough for them to actually see a loss in power.

Lying to the Queen strikes right at the heart of everything the core Tory base holds dear. It's honestly hard to think of a charge that would be more damaging to the party than that one.

Of course right now this all depends on whether the UKSC agrees with the decision. If they don't then the Tories can just easily go "those biased Remoaner scots," and move on with their days.
Yes, although, as has been pointed out elsewhere, a party that stakes its reputation on being a unionist party with a respect for the rule of law would find that an incredibly uncomfortable position.
 

Tacitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,031
Boris ignoring a VoNC would likely eventually end up with him being marched out of 10 Downing Street in handcuffs.

It results in 14 days to form a new government, failing which there'll be an election. Johnson turtling up would just end up seeing him turfed out.

What about when Boris loses a VoNC, parliament fails to form a new government and tories win the GE?

I mean besides
tumblr_lyhpiuK7U01r9nm0io1_400.gif
 

Binabik15

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,601
With another deadline closing in another tsunami of crazy, unprecedented fuckery from Brexit.
 
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
I read this earlier it's a good explanation.
Yes, it's utterly fascinating.

TL;DR: No10 didn't provide a witness statement (signed affidavit) swearing that the decision to request prorogation was routine. The witness statement is damning in its absence. The Court could reasonably conclude the documents provided by the Government were not sufficiently persuasive without anyone willing to swear to the official story.
 

Deleted member 21431

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
596
This whole shoulder-shrugging, "well, nothing will happen!" bullshit is completely out of whack with how serious and unprecedented the current situation is.
But nothing will happen. Even if the SC supports the judgement, Parliament won't be called back as its party conference season. Meanwhile, no-one will be punished and no-one will resign. In fact Boris would become even more popular with the Brexit supporters for trying to enforce the "will of the people" by all means necessary.

The SC will throw out the case anyway.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
But nothing will happen. Even if the SC supports the judgement, Parliament won't be called back as its party conference season. Meanwhile, no-one will be punished and no-one will resign. In fact Boris would become even more popular with the Brexit supporters for trying to enforce the "will of the people" by all means necessary.

The SC will throw out the case anyway.
Parliament was about to vote to cancel the conference recess before the prorogation was brought about.

You may be right about the SC not upholding the Scottish decision, but if you aren't it's an incredibly serious situation that doesn't have any precedent, and anyone who's confidently stating that they know what's going to happen is chatting bubbles.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
What's stopping Boris from ignoring a VoNC? The only route would be impeachment but I'm not even sure how that's done or whether it would be possible.

As for it being a bloodbath, well that could happen but I just can't see it being that big of a deal as to finally hurt the Tories enough for them to actually see a loss in power.

Of course right now this all depends on whether the UKSC agrees with the decision. If they don't then the Tories can just easily go "those biased Remoaner scots," and move on with their days.
This isn't a presidency, as is Boris can do very little anyway so he's not going to ignore a vote of no confidence in the place.

As it stands he's a Prime minister with none of the power.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
What's stopping Boris from ignoring a VoNC?
If it's a vote of no confidence in the government, he can't ignore it. That vote would either result in a new government with the confidence of the Commons within 14 days (and it's really difficult to see Johnson passing a confidence vote) or a general election.

If it's a vote of no confidence in himself he could theoretically ignore it since that has no binding consequences, but realistically an opposition tabling a motion of no confidence is not going to go that route.

The only route would be impeachment but I'm not even sure how that's done or whether it would be possible.
Impeachment works by the Commons making an accusation and passing a motion by majority to impeach. Proceedings and the trail afterwards happen in the House of Lords. Wikipedia outlines the procedure here.

It's not the only option, there can be a recall election of Johnson as well. That would require him to be convicted of something with a year-long prison sentence or alternatively suspended from the Commons for 10 sitting days. That, amazingly, doesn't appear to me to be totally out of the question. If it happened it would trigger a six-week petition period, wherein 10% of his Uxbridge and South Ruislip constituents signing the petition would result in a recall election.

So there's no real shortage of ways to get Johnson out of office, the difficulty is in getting him out before no deal happens.

As for it being a bloodbath, well that could happen but I just can't see it being that big of a deal as to finally hurt the Tories enough for them to actually see a loss in power.
I think you are possibly right in terms of the Conservative-leaning electorate. If a united Conservative Party went to the polls tomorrow I think a Conservative majority would be a totally plausible outcome.

However, that "united Conservative Party" is far from a guarantee by the time that the election actually happens. Johnson's actions in the past few weeks have been anti-democratic, have been transparently imbecilic, have resulted in a series of defeats in parliament, and have resulted in record numbers of formerly-Conservative MPs losing the whip. Many Conservative MPs will be looking at that combination with horror.
 

Minky

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
481
UK
Brexiteers: "The EU undermines UK parliamentary sovereignty. Return power to our parliament".

Parliament: "Delay Brexit"

Brexiteers: "We're shutting down parliament. They have too much power"


Brexiteers: "The EU court undermines UK court power. Return power to our courts."

UK courts: "Proroguing parliament is based on lies. You can't do it"

Brexiteers: "UK courts shouldn't be allowed to interfere with government. They have too much power."

This is great