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Jun 17, 2019
397
People flirting with accusing her of being alt-right or pandering to them ITT is extremely rich lmao.

I think the biggest problem with her statement is that it was kinda tone deaf, but the principle of what she was saying wasn't really wrong.
 
Jul 3, 2019
31
User banned (permanent): Dismissing concerns surrounding representation
Nothing could be more important than a bunch of adults arguing about who gets to play make believe.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
92,986
People flirting with accusing her of being alt-right or pandering to them ITT is extremely rich lmao.

I think the biggest problem with her statement is that it was kinda tone deaf, but the principle of what she was saying wasn't really wrong.
It isn't wrong if it was in a vacuum, but we don't live in a vacuum
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
s7kOMP4.png

Motoko Kusanagi ladies and gentlemen
That's Major Kusanagi, to you. 🤣
I was wondering that as well. I haven't seen that at all.
It's almost as if that poster is talking out their arse.
 
Jun 17, 2019
397
It isn't wrong if it was in a vacuum, but we don't live in a vacuum
I agree with the notion that like, if somebody is good in a role, you should be able to cast them in it. Like, I think she worked in Ghost In the Shell because she could plausibly portray the main character and looked pretty similar to the source material. When it comes to her in this role where's she's playing a trans person, that seems a little more silly. I also haven't seen it so I can't pass full judgment on it.
Basically what I'm saying is, I agree with the general sentiment that people should be able to play whoever they want if that's what works the most artistically, which is as true outside of a vacuum as it is within one.
lmao this is peak white privilege and white feminism.
theres nothing remotely feminist about this statement but go off king
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
92,986
I agree with the notion that like, if somebody is good in a role, you should be able to cast them in it. Like, I think she worked in Ghost In the Shell because she could plausibly portray the main character and looked pretty similar to the source material. When it comes to her in this role where's she's playing a trans person, that seems a little more silly. I also haven't seen it so I can't pass full judgment on it.
Basically what I'm saying is, I agree with the general sentiment that people should be able to play whoever they want if that's what works the most artistically, which is as true outside of a vacuum as it is within one.

theres nothing remotely feminist about this statement but go off king
You are saying hollywood is a meritocracy when we have empirical proof it isn't. Not everyone gets a shot to try out for roles, hell they don't even get told about the roles.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,117
Greater Vancouver
Why do some films and actors get a pass? Recently saw The Departed and don't remember backlash.
Infernal Affairs is just a story about a run-around between cops and organized criminals. Any cultural differences are adapted and adjusted to center around the Irish mafia in Boston. There is nothing intrinsically exclusive to Hong Kong in the premise of that movie.

Ghost in the Shell is a story set in Japan with ScarJo literally playing a woman named Motoko Kusanagi. And in their attempt to appease the fanbase, they made it so she was a Japanese woman in a white woman's body. They could have set the movie in the States, they could've called her Mikaela Kissinger who moved to Tokyo as a kid; there's any number of lame-but-whatever choices they could have made if they wanted a limp excuse why an Asian actress wasn't cast. And instead, they went with the worst possible option where Scarlet Johansson is literally replacing a Japanese woman's body.

DiCaprio isn't running around that movie talking about his adoptive parents from Hong Kong.
 
Jun 17, 2019
397
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory Commentary around Non-Intersectional Feminism over a Series of Posts in this Thread
Do you know what White Feminism is ?

Show me.

Because i've seen people bring up the meme. But not that she wants to invoke it.
white feminism is any time a white woman says something that makes me mad.

You are saying hollywood is a meritocracy when we have empirical proof it isn't. Not everyone gets a shot to try out for roles, hell they don't even get told about the roles.
Fair point. Like I do get that the reason she might've been cast as the lead in GITS is because she was seen as an A-List name and a potential box office draw, but I think that can also be true and that she also credibly fit the criteria of someone who could depict that character.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
Hilarious how she talks about how art shouldn't be restricted, as it continues to be primarily restricted to only white actors.
Art is not restricted. Anyone can make art at any skill level with any budget. Anyone can make new IP without restriction and do whatever they want with it. Anyone with an Internet connection can self-publish anything they want in any medium.

Or are you talking about the awards and prestige of big acting jobs? It's shitty that awards shows and producers prioritize white actors a lot of the time. That's true. HOWEVER, money and awards are NOT the reason to make art. It doesn't EVER fucking matter that it resonates with an audience.

What would Era have said if she wanted to play a Ghostbuster?
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
My favorite part of the GITS thing is Max "Living Embodiment of White Privilege" Landis saying they had to cast her in order to get the money and have a chance at the box office. Not counting her marvel work she her shit been bombing left and right.
The same excuse was used to cast her in Under The Skin. And the movie still bombed.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
Art is not restricted. Anyone can make art at any skill level with any budget. Anyone can make new IP without restriction and do whatever they want with it. Anyone with an Internet connection can self-publish anything they want in any medium.

Or are you talking about the awards and prestige of big acting jobs? It's shitty that awards shows and producers prioritize white actors a lot of the time. That's true. HOWEVER, money and awards are NOT the reason to make art. It doesn't EVER fucking matter that it resonates with an audience.

What would Era have said if she wanted to play a Ghostbuster?
You know fully well what I am saying here.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I agree with the notion that like, if somebody is good in a role, you should be able to cast them in it. Like, I think she worked in Ghost In the Shell because she could plausibly portray the main character and looked pretty similar to the source material. When it comes to her in this role where's she's playing a trans person, that seems a little more silly. I also haven't seen it so I can't pass full judgment on it.
Basically what I'm saying is, I agree with the general sentiment that people should be able to play whoever they want if that's what works the most artistically, which is as true outside of a vacuum as it is within one.

theres nothing remotely feminist about this statement but go off king
Yeah that's the point. What that poster means by "white feminism" is that this is an example of when white feminists completely ignore intersectionality when it suits them. The fact that it flies in the face of intersectional feminist values is what makes it "peak white feminism".
 
Jun 17, 2019
397
Yeah that's the point. What that poster means by "white feminism" is that this is an example of when white feminists completely ignore intersectionality when it suits them. The fact that it flies in the face of intersectional feminist values is what makes it "peak white feminism".
and my point is that Scarlett Johansson isn't claiming to be nor invoking any principles of feminism in this instance, so bringing it up regardless of that fact is kind of puzzling. Feminism is not "any time any woman says anything at all."
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
and my point is that Scarlett Johansson isn't claiming to be nor invoking any principles of feminism in this instance, so bringing it up regardless of that fact is kind of puzzling. Feminism is not "any time any woman says anything at all."
You are missing the point. She doesn't have to be invoking principles of feminism in this moment to be saying something incompatible with intersectional feminism.
 

Gatti-man

Banned
Jan 31, 2018
2,359
User Banned (1 month): concern trolling
Someone please explain to me how Scarjo is a bad person for playing a fictional Asian but it's great for a black actor to play a fictional white Ariel in the little mermaid? Like who gives a shit. Let actors act. If people want to see it they will make money and if they don't it won't. Since ghost in the shell bombed people didn't like it. But simply getting upset when a white person plays a fictional role whose source material was a minority seems like shooting the messenger.

I could see the uproar if ghost in the shell was a true story or had real people in it but it's extreme fiction.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Someone please explain to me how Scarjo is a bad person for playing a fictional Asian but it's great for a black actor to play a fictional white Ariel in the little mermaid? Like who gives a shit. Let actors act. If people want to see it they will make money and if they don't it won't. Since ghost in the shell bombed people didn't like it. But simply getting upset when a white person plays a fictional role whose source material was a minority seems like shooting the messenger.

I could see the uproar if ghost in the shell was a true story or had real people in it but it's extreme fiction.
Seems like you aren't familiar with the concept of whitewashing. First of all, no one said she is a 'bad person', but her playing a Japanese character as a white woman is very clearly whitewashing. Whitewashing is the practice of taking a fictional character or historical person of a certain race and then having a white person portray them in your adaptation because that's more palatable to a white audience. It's basically erasing an opportunity for representation

It doesn't apply to a black actress being Ariel because 'blackwashing' is not a thing.
 
Jun 17, 2019
397
You are missing the point. She doesn't have to be invoking principles of feminism in this moment to be saying something incompatible with intersectional feminism.
I understand it clashes with the ideals of intersectionality, that still doesn't mean it has anything to do with feminism in this specific instance. If there were a venn diagram with feminism and insectionality, this would be in the portion of it where feminism doesn't overlap.

Like, if this were a man saying this, not a single person would have brought up feminism.
 

Brix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,678
Here's a direct quote from Ghost in the Shell original director.

"Now, Mamoru Oshii, the director of the original anime adaptation of Ghost in the Shell, said that he has no problem with Johansson playing a role many have understood to be an Asian woman. His reasoning? Ghost in the Shell's main character is a cyborg with no fixed form or race, he explained to IGN, so he doesn't consider Johansson's casting as Hollywood whitewashing. "What issue could there possibly be with casting her? The Major is a cyborg and her physical form is an entirely assumed one. The name 'Motoko Kusanagi' and her current body are not her original name and body, so there is no basis for saying that an Asian actress must portray her," he told IGN via email. "Even if her original body (presuming such a thing existed) were a Japanese one, that would still apply." Instead, Oshii says he's satisfied with Johansson's casting, and that he would prefer the live-action adaptation offer a new perspective on Masamune Shirow's original Ghost in the Shell manga."

This isn't whitewashing. If you're going to call this whitewashing then what's this?
 

Gatti-man

Banned
Jan 31, 2018
2,359
Seems like you aren't familiar with the concept of whitewashing. First of all, no one said she is a 'bad person', but her playing a Japanese character as a white woman is very clearly whitewashing. Whitewashing is the practice of taking a fictional character or historical person of a certain race and then having a white person portray them in your adaptation because that's more palatable to a white audience. It's basically erasing an opportunity for representation

It doesn't apply to a black actress being Ariel because 'blackwashing' is not a thing.
I'm very familiar. But you're being purposefully obtuse here. It's exactly the same thing. If you're going to be amped about the Ariel thing and mad about scarjo, you're basically hypocritical. Neither should matter for the actor when dealing with fiction.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I understand it clashes with the ideals of intersectionality, that still doesn't mean it has anything to do with feminism in this specific instance. If there were a venn diagram with feminism and insectionality, this would be in the portion of it where feminism doesn't overlap.

Like, if this were a man saying this, not a single person would have brought up feminism.
Except most modern feminists would tell you that ignoring intersectionality is incompatible with feminism, same thing applies to TERFs. You can't be feminist and also oppress/reject people on the basis of race, sexual, or gender identity.

It's relevant because Scarlett Johansson has described herself as a feminist. People are pointing out that the contradiction between her stated values and this statement. People would absolutely bring it up if these comments came from a man who was an outspoken feminist. There is nothing sexist about pointing out when feminist white women fail to uphold intersectional values of feminism regarding race.

There is a reason no one says "peak white feminism" in response to Anne Coulter or Laura Ingraham saying racist shit...because they don't identify as feminists.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
I understand it clashes with the ideals of intersectionality, that still doesn't mean it has anything to do with feminism in this specific instance. If there were a venn diagram with feminism and insectionality, this would be in the portion of it where feminism doesn't overlap.

Like, if this were a man saying this, not a single person would have brought up feminism.

That's because a man's argument that he could play any role he wanted wouldn't be a challenge to the inherent systemic male privilege he had just from being a male in this society.

A woman saying she can play any role is such a challenge. However, here, she doesn't understand or care to learn why the decisions she's making come at a cost to other oppressed groups. It's a self-centered feminism, *even if she doesn't invoke feminism as why*.

It's not really that hard to get.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I'm very familiar. But you're being purposefully obtuse here. It's exactly the same thing. If you're going to be amped about the Ariel thing and mad about scarjo, you're basically hypocritical. Neither should matter for the actor when dealing with fiction.
You clearly don't understand if you think it's the same thing. Whiteness has priviledge, whiteness is considered the default. Blackness is not and thus it's not the same.

Whether or not its fiction is irrelevant to whether or not its whitewashing. What matters is the source material and the adaptation. It's just more obvious and egregious when it involves stories about real people.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
Seems like you aren't familiar with the concept of whitewashing. First of all, no one said she is a 'bad person', but her playing a Japanese character as a white woman is very clearly whitewashing. Whitewashing is the practice of taking a fictional character or historical person of a certain race and then having a white person portray them in your adaptation because that's more palatable to a white audience. It's basically erasing an opportunity for representation

It doesn't apply to a black actress being Ariel because 'blackwashing' is not a thing.
I didn't like it when Billy, Zack and Trini were given completely different races in the last Power Rangers movie. No one cared though.

It's not a racial issue, it's more along the lines that the characters don't resemble their TV counterparts in any way.

I don't get problem when the Major can have any body she wants. I didn't see GiTS but they should have played with that a lot more.
 

Gatti-man

Banned
Jan 31, 2018
2,359
That's because a man's argument that he could play any role he wanted wouldn't be a challenge to the inherent systemic male privilege he had just from being a male in this society.

A woman saying she can play any role is such a challenge. However, here, she doesn't understand or care to learn why the decisions she's making come at a cost to other oppressed groups. It's a self-centered feminism, *even if she doesn't invoke feminism as why*.

It's not really that hard to get.
Scarjo taking that role didn't cost anyone anything. The suits that cast the role wanted a mainstream Hollywood actress with star power to hopefully grab ticket sales. If Scarjo said no it would have gone to some other Hollywood name. Like Zoe Saldana or Michele Rodriguez etc. They weren't going to cast an unknown (I can't think of a major actiony Asian Hollywood movie star).
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Here's a direct quote from Ghost in the Shell original director.

"Now, Mamoru Oshii, the director of the original anime adaptation of Ghost in the Shell, said that he has no problem with Johansson playing a role many have understood to be an Asian woman. His reasoning? Ghost in the Shell's main character is a cyborg with no fixed form or race, he explained to IGN, so he doesn't consider Johansson's casting as Hollywood whitewashing. "What issue could there possibly be with casting her? The Major is a cyborg and her physical form is an entirely assumed one. The name 'Motoko Kusanagi' and her current body are not her original name and body, so there is no basis for saying that an Asian actress must portray her," he told IGN via email. "Even if her original body (presuming such a thing existed) were a Japanese one, that would still apply." Instead, Oshii says he's satisfied with Johansson's casting, and that he would prefer the live-action adaptation offer a new perspective on Masamune Shirow's original Ghost in the Shell manga."

This isn't whitewashing. If you're going to call this whitewashing then what's this?

Did the movie genuinely address that disconnect between her cyborg body and mind?

Not that that would make up for not casting a Japanese actress for the character when that kind of whitewashing happens so often. And it's still whitewashing.
 
Jun 17, 2019
397
Except most modern feminists would tell you that ignoring intersectionality is incompatible with feminism, same thing applies to TERFs. You can't be feminist and also oppress/reject people on the basis of race, sexual, or gender identity.

It's relevant because Scarlett Johansson has described herself as a feminist. People are pointing out that the contradiction between her stated values and this statement. People would absolutely bring it up if these comments came from a man who was an outspoken feminist. There is nothing sexist about pointing out when feminist white women fail to uphold intersectional values of feminism regarding race.

There is a reason no one says "peak white feminism" in response to Anne Coulter or Laura Ingraham saying racist shit...because they don't identify as feminists.
I guess that's contingent on believing that Scarlett Johansson is a supposedly outspoken or dedicated feminist, which I definitely don't associate her as, and the only example I could find of her being described as feminist is a time that she said Trump was bad. Aside from that, "feminist" is not an identity that I would readily ascribe to her and as such I wouldn't inherently attribute to any given quote of hers.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,272
I'm very familiar. But you're being purposefully obtuse here. It's exactly the same thing. If you're going to be amped about the Ariel thing and mad about scarjo, you're basically hypocritical. Neither should matter for the actor when dealing with fiction.

Life doesn't work based off ideals, if it did why would this even be a current discussion topic?

Or you can choose to just ignore everything about race and societal structure like you're doing now. That works too.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,595
Sure, she does. We also have the right to criticize her decision to portray a character.
 

Gatti-man

Banned
Jan 31, 2018
2,359
Life doesn't work based off ideals, if it did why would this even be a current discussion topic?

Or you can choose to just ignore everything about race and societal structure like you're doing now. That works too.
I don't really understand why this forum is discussing it tbh. You're either ok with race being interchangeable in fiction or you aren't. Choose one.