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60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
People like customization. Create your own character, choose your weapons, fighting style, skills, armour, accessories, level up your attributes the way you imagine your character, all that stuff.

More options are always good, right? No.

Sekiro has almost none of that and I'm sure that's the reason why it is the first From Software game that "clicked" with me. I've played all Souls/Bloodborne games except Darks Souls 2, and eventually dropped them due to being too slow, tedious or having too many gameplay mechanics that bloat up the whole experience, like a million different upgrade paths for each weapon, or that game-y stamina bar.

One sword attack costs X stamina. Every second you regenerate Y stamina. You have Z stamina points in total. Now calculate your attacks, blocks and sprints. I hate it. It adds nothing for me. It feels game-y in a bad way.


Luckily, the developers modernized and streamlined Sekiro a lot.

The game has a beautiful, timeless art style, the menus don't look like it's From Software's first attempt to create a video game anymore, and they modernized tons of gameplay systems as well. Simply moving around and exploring the world feels actually fun now. You can sprint, jump, swim, strike as you like, you don't have to worry about stamina, and you don't receive damage from falling down a 3 feet deep cliff. The grappling hook eases things up further. It's game-y, but in a good way. It makes moving around a really enjoyable experience.


You don't have to worry about which equipment to use and upgrade.

You have your trusty katana. Sticking to your gear feels so much more natural - especially given the Shinobi setting - than changing equipment every 30 minutes just because you find new "loot". You have a tool that works. A super-sharp katana. Katana are like the pinneacle of swordcraft. Swords don't get more lethal than that. So you stick to it. Makes sense. Not from a game-y point of view - players always want to be rewarded with cool new gear - but realistically speaking, it makes sense sticking to a tool that you're familiar with.

When you have a katana in your hand to fight demons, you don't need another sword, okay? There is no such thing as a katana that adds 20 more damage. This is just bloat and Sekiro has none of that.

Plus you don't have to distribute level up points to your attributes. Sekiro cuts all the crap and just lets you play the actual game without having to worry about this kind of micromanagement.


I've heard many people say Sekiro is the hardest From Software game to date, much harder than any Souls game.


I don't know what to make of this. I never beat a Souls game. I still have to finish Sekiro as well, but I already played it farther than any Souls game. Demon's Souls in 2009 was my first Souls game and I always found them tedious, slow and hard since then. Not hard in a good way, more like archaically hard. I didn't like the death traps that highlighted the trial and error nature of the games, the slow and clunky movement, equipment load, or the unfairly distributed save points, which made your way back to the bosses unnecessary long and tedious. These games had bosses that killed me with two strikes, after 15 seconds in total. The main character moving at the speed of an ant, with the grace of a tank didn't make things any better.

When you spend 15 seconds with a boss before getting beaten, there is not much to learn from that encounter, like how to deal damage or how to dodge more effectively. And now you have to go all the way back to this boss. 20 times. Until you beat it. That always frustrated me. I called it bad game design. Sekiro isn't easy, but it lets me easily move my character the way I want for starters, without running out of stamina, and it has fairly placed save points. That really helps to keep the motivation up.

You could say the movement in Sekiro doesn't feel restricted like in Souls games. It lets me move around in what feels like an appropriate, modern way for such a game. Playing the new Demon's Souls really highlights this. I don't want to run out of stamina every 10 seconds. It feels archaic and restricting, when all I want to do is exploring this atmospheric ancient ruins.


Plus the actual fighting mechanics in Sekiro are insanely fun (to me).

Combat is simple on the outside, but often simple is best. You don't have tons of nonsensical button combinations for attack combos and such. Yet the game offers deep, satisfying and nerve-racking encounters. Yes, you have to learn how to parry and you don't have much choice otherwise. Maybe that's not what players expect from a (From Software) game, maybe they expect a certain degree of customization. But it's a completely viable way to design a game. And I love it. I don't want to try for half an hour if the dagger is better than the short sword, I don't want to handle equipment load.

In Sekiro I spend less time trying to figure out the best way to play the game and just play the game instead.

You just use your reduced combat options and have fun with them.


Games are bloated into oblivion nowadays.

They feature weapon trees, crafting incredients, attributes, skill combos, level up mechanics for every little thing.

When I played Far Cry 4 I eventually stacked a hilarious amount of skill point without spending them, because the skills all seemed so trivial. It felt like the only reason this game had skills was for the sake of having skills. I like roleplaying games, even turn-based slow ones. But sometimes I don't want to deal with customization and micromanagement, and that's why I like games like Sekiro, that are bold enough to keep it simple in this day and age.

I haven't quite finished it, but I already beat a good amount of bosses, more than in any other Souls game, and I'm doing really well. There are bosses I even beat on the first attempt.

For years I thought Dark Souls would be way cooler if these games cut all the crap and played more streamlined and focused, like the classic PC Hack'n Slay game Severance. Sekiro does exactly that. I definitely see why the game has won so many accolades. What for it tries to accomplish, it doesn't get any better than that.


TL;DR:

Sekiro lets you just play the actual game without having to deal with superficial, bloated, game-y mechanics such as weapon and character customization, stamina bars or inventory micromanagement. The controls and movement mechanics for exploring the game world have been modernized and are just plain fun. It's one of the rare games that keep things sweet and simple in this day and age and that's why I like it a lot. And on PS5 you can enjoy the fantastic art style at wonderfully smooth 60fps.

 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,375
I mean, I don't disagree that sometimes games can have too many mechanics. It's a big turn off for me. If I'm still learning shit 20 hours into a game, or an RPG is still introducing new mechanics constantly it's a huge ass turn off. Lots of developers confuse complexity with depth.

With that said, I disagree completely that the souls series is a good example of this. Your example of stamina I feel like is a bit nitpicky. You can beat the entire game and not really do any mental calculations. It's actually complexity done right imo. If you want to get deep, there's depth, if you don't want to, the basics are pretty standard.

I love Sekiro too but the soulsborne games aren't lesser to me.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
I wouldn't call the plethora of RPG mechanics that their other games have "bloat". They're what adds variety to replays of those games.

The problem with resetera's criticism of this game is that From Software's definition of replayability shouldn't be beholden to deriving fun from making different builds. The appeal of starting a new game of Sekiro is mastering the combat with the demon bell/without Kuro's charm and demolishing bosses in new ways that you haven't tried before.
 
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Magneto

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,449
It's great for you if you found a Souls game that clicked for you.

I enjoy having options tho', so i hope Sekiro 2 will happen someday for you, and that Elden Ring will give me choices and variety just like the other Souls games.
 

Deleted member 2441

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
655
I think you make a lot of good points.

One quick counterpoint on the difficulty of Sekiro, do keep in mind that Sekiro has a higher mechanical execution requirement than other Souls games. The upshot is that when you master it, or break through the initial barrier, I think it's one of the most rewarding feelings in games. But it is more difficult to get there. You also can't adopt heavier armour sets if you know you're not good at dodging and prefer to tank and spank.

Folks who are adept at grasping the mechanical intensity of Sekiro quickly may find it an easier game, but if you are not as good at timing or executing the dance, you'd probably find it a lot harder than Souls.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,210
I don't spend time in Souls games trying to find the best way to play, I just choose something that I think is cool and works for me and the way I play. That just happens to be different to what others choose, which is neat and where the versatility of options is of benefit.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,713
United States
I absolutely think this is a strength of Sekiro, but this is why it's important to differentiate it from Souls games. I love Sekiro and think it's probably From's strongest game mechanically. But I would be devastated if the next Soulslike project contained only Sekiro-level gameplay opportunity. I really love something like Sekiro and Bloodborne differently and don't compare them very much in my head. They are two different design philosophies. I think Sekiro is an incredibly strong execution of a truly elegant gameplay concept. But I don't think this makes it better than Souls because it's not Souls and Souls has strengths that lie in different areas.

Edit: Just to clarify, I know we're talking about preference here and you didn't make a value judgment in the OP. This is just how I break it down in my own head.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
I actually don't play the Souls games for the in depth character building options or combat. I've always been most into the sense of exploration and other related experiences. Unfortunately I found Sekiro is less focused on that element than the Souls titles. Still loved Sekiro though.


I don't spend time in Souls games trying to find the best way to play, I just choose something that I think is cool and works for me and the way I play. That just happens to be different to what many others choose, which is neat and where the versatility of options is of benefit.
Also this. I play the same spell-less knight guy in every game.
 

Skulldead

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,452
Agree, Bloodborne was the perfect middle, just enough weapon, equipement and item management. Never get overwhelming like other soul's game.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,813
Brazil
Apples and oranges.

If you don't like the RPG part of Souls, Sekiro will be clearly the better game for you, and that's okay.

But it's stupid to call these elements superficial and bloated. These are the "Soul" of Souls and it's the reason why these games are so replayable. These terms doesn't even remotely relates with Souls games. There's zero bloat or superficial stuff in them, everything works properly and is well placed.
 

Rommaz

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,267
Kitwe, Zambia.
Souls RPG mechanics/options are probably the ones I bear with the most so I wouldn't call them bloat but eh I see what you mean. I think them alternating between pure action like Sekiro and more RPG stuff like Elden ring is supposed to be will be ace
 

Gelf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,310
I'm not sure if Sekiro is my favourite From game but I'm with you in that the way I play it isn't entirely dissimilar to Souls. I rarely spend much time in those optimising my equipment so that being streamlined didn't really affect my usual play style.

Funny thing is even Souls is appealing to me in terms of its loot system not being overwhelming compared to some other RPGs. Mechanical mastery is often more important and I like that. Sekiro is probably easier for me to master though since I'm not making do with poorly upgraded gear.
 
Dec 6, 2017
10,989
US
It's not bloated. Souls are Action RPGs, Sekiro is a straight Action game and I think they're both fine the way they are. That being said, I actually kind of hope if a Sekiro 2 ever happens, they drop the Souls world design and focus more on having self-contained mini-worlds like Hirata Estate and play with verticality and clever encounter designs much more and so on. I'd dig it if they decouple Sekiro from the Souls remnants in its design even more.
 

Transistor

Hollowly Brittle
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,164
Washington, D.C.
I don't think this is all that much of a hot take. I've never been one for "build variety" in my Souls games, so Sekiro and Bloodborne are probably my top two. Focus on build variety over environmental cohesion is probably why Dark Souls 2 is on the bottom for me.

Bloodborne is probably the perfect balance.
 

ShinobiBk

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 28, 2017
10,121
Sekiro is definitely my favorite FromSoftware game but I love their other games as well.
I don't personally care about different builds, min-maxing or anything along those lines but still enjoy the games anyway
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,228
Tokyo, Japan
Really interesting write-up, and I agree with you in many ways about how Sekiro freshens things up.

However - and I've only recently come to realise this - traditional Souls games are actually TTRPGs disguised as ARPGs.

What I mean by that is, firstly the options presented in Souls are literally just that. There's stuff lying around everywhere and we indiscriminately scoop it all up, letting it take up both inventory and mental capacity. But we don't need any of it. We need only what our character would choose. What they would carry with them to the dragon's lair, no questions asked. (Note: I concede that the fact all items are represented in-world by the same glowing effect is part of the problem here. Being forced to discard items and purge your inventory often isn't ideal, and it feels like there's an incentive to collect weapons and items, when there isn't any extrinsic reward for doing so (apart from in specific cases such as Ring collection achievements)).

Stamina is another example. It may feel like an arbitrary, game-y thing, but it's actually an element designed to reflect how your character should/would move and swing their weapon. Do you use it to run? Or to block? Dodge? Two-hand a great axe or chip away with a dagger? When it comes to attack, you can maybe think of it as the "3" part of a 3d6 roll. Now your stamina is refilling and it's the opponent's "turn". It all happens very quickly, but it's the same basic principle.

You said:
60fps said:
I like roleplaying games, even turn-based slow ones.
And I actually think Dark Souls is most fun when played like a slow, turn-based game.

Sure, some people love to min-max builds and roll-dodge through everything, but that's the player optimising the fun out of the game. People say "Bloodborne taught me how to play Dark Souls" but no; really it just taught them they like to play a certain way. There are many ways to play Dark Souls, just as there are many ways to play D&D. You make your character and you use your imagination. The systems are there for you to fine-tune your choices. (Note: I realise the choices in Souls are more or less fully combat-oriented, and there are no real dialogue choices or social paths like in other RPGs, but I still think the argument stands.)
 
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logash

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,739
Sounds like you just like action games more than RPGs. I have loved every souls game so far including Sekiro which is my second favorite behind Bloodborne but the RPG mechanics don't make one better or worse than the other. They are just different kinds of games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,198
i agree op but i also think Sekiro was waay shorter than it deserved, it needed like 3-5 new big areas and at least 10 more bosses...

shame the dlc was what it was... I wanted something like Bloodborne's dlc!

At the very least with this games success their will be a sequel or another game in the same universe down the line!
 

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,157
Obviously it's a balance, but in general, less options = less opportunities to strategize, which is bad game design
 

SwampBastard

The Fallen
Nov 1, 2017
11,040
I think you just sold me on trying Sekiro, OP. I had tried Demon's Souls way back when and kinda hated it for all the reasons you listed.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,364
I think that's a valid take and it really works for Sekiro because it means it can be really specific about what build it designs it's encounters around.

For me personally, the appeal of Souls-likes is fucking around with weird, fun builds and playing the games multiple times. It's why Bloodborne and Sekiro are lower down my list of favs. They're both phenomenal games but they're equally missing that build variety that I find fun.
 

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,157
This is not how it works at all lol (And i like having options in Souls, rather than not having them in Sekiro).
I mean, it is. One of the most major elements of creating engaging gameplay is player intentionality, which is when the player chooses a particular strategy in order to accomplish a particular goal. Less options afforded to the player means less opportunities to strategize, and less player intentionality. That results in that boring feeling of just going through the motions, as the player repeatedly chooses the only strategy that the game affords them.

Don't get me wrong - Sekiro is a great game. But From moved a lot of the options from the different weapons/spells to the prostethics, which don't have the same breadth of situations that they're applicable to. Yes there are situations where having the shield for example gives a massive leg up, but situations like that - where the prosthetics offer a noticeably different strategy to an encounter - are too few and far between imo.
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,407
Sekiro isn't my favorite of the Souls games, but I absolutely appreciate how streamlined it is. The less time I have to spend fucking around in a menu with arbitrary numbers and symbols the better.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
Agree, Bloodborne was the perfect middle, just enough weapon, equipement and item management. Never get overwhelming like other soul's game.
This is one of the reasons I love Bloodborne so much. There isn't a ton of build variety, but there's enough to make multiple playthroughs unique and viable. Sekiro is certainly replayable, but each playthrough will feel pretty similar to the last.

So, I love Sekiro, but prefer Bloodborne.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,354
I just personally feel like when you funnel players into a particular playstyle and say 'master this' it just robs that feeling of satisfaction when you master it. Giving some wiggle room to the player to express their own combat preferences can make a massive difference. Feels like you're being lectured to by a combat designer rather than navigating the system by yourself.

I think this is partly why Hades is such a hit, it offers so many different permutations to spice up your preferred combat loadout. Literally it's like taking a boon in that game is applying a new layer of seasoning to your arsenal and achieving that synthesis of godly destruction is why that game is good. Something which is impossible with Sekiro even with its more 'advanced' combat mechanics. You don't feel a whole lot of agency in it, the little combat arts you get are really just too minor to feel impactful.

TL;DR, I think Sekiro is rubbish. People should play Hades instead cause it offers simplicity of execution with a vast variety of ways to find your own playstyle.
 

StarPhlox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,389
Wisconsin
I love all the Souls games, however I do agree with you OP. Going from Sekiro to Demon's Souls really confirmed for me that the streamlining and QOL features that culminated with Sekiro makes it my favorite to play.
 

Magneto

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,449
I mean, it is. One of the most major elements of creating engaging gameplay is player intentionality, which is when the player chooses a particular strategy in order to accomplish a particular goal. Less options afforded to the player means less opportunities to strategize, and less player intentionality. That results in that boring feeling of just going through the motions, as the player repeatedly chooses the only strategy that the game affords them.

Nope, this is just what you like, and that's perfectly fine. That has nothing to do with "good" or" bad game design".

But i feel like "Bad game design" is the new "Anti-consumer" on Era these days, it's often used when it doesn't have to.
 
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Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,049
You have your trusty katana. Sticking to your gear feels so much more natural - especially given the Shinobi setting - than changing equipment every 30 minutes just because you find new "loot". You have a tool that works. A super-sharp katana. Katana are like the pinneacle of swordcraft. Swords don't get more lethal than that. So you stick to it. Makes sense. Not from a game-y point of view - players always want to be rewarded with cool new gear - but realistically speaking, it makes sense sticking to a tool that you're familiar with.

When you have a katana in your hand to fight demons, you don't need another sword, okay? There is no such thing as a katana that adds 20 more damage. This is just bloat and Sekiro has none of that.

I mean, the problem is not that he only has one sword- it's that what he can do with one sword is kinda boring. Doesn't help that you can only equip one combat art at a time so everyone would just use the 3 best moves in the game.

Nero only has one sword but it's one hell of a sword with a ton of moveset for every situation, not to mention a unique rev mechanic.

Jin only has one sword but he can switch between 4 styles and use all your special moves on the fly.

Not saying Dark Souls weapons are anything complex either, but they make up for it with having a big variety.
 

MZZ

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,257
Not gonna say I prefer one over the other. They're great games that were going for different ideas and executed well on them. Personally I enjoy appreciate the games for what they are.
 

SpokkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
People like customization. Create your own character, choose your weapons, fighting style, skills, armour, accessories, level up your attributes the way you imagine your character, all that stuff.

More options are always good, right? No.

Sekiro has almost none of that and I'm sure that's the reason why it is the first From Software game that "clicked" with me. I've played all Souls/Bloodborne games except Darks Souls 2, and eventually dropped them due to being too slow, tedious or having too many gameplay mechanics that bloat up the whole experience, like a million different upgrade paths for each weapon, or that game-y stamina bar.

One sword attack costs X stamina. Every second you regenerate Y stamina. You have Z stamina points in total. Now calculate your attacks, blocks and sprints. I hate it. It adds nothing for me. It feels game-y in a bad way.


Luckily, the developers modernized and streamlined Sekiro a lot.

The game has a beautiful, timeless art style, the menus don't look like it's From Software's first attempt to create a video game anymore, and they modernized tons of gameplay systems as well. Simply moving around and exploring the world feels actually fun now. You can sprint, jump, swim, strike as you like, you don't have to worry about stamina, and you don't receive damage from falling down a 3 feet deep cliff. The grappling hook eases things up further. It's game-y, but in a good way. It makes moving around a really enjoyable experience.


You don't have to worry about which equipment to use and upgrade.

You have your trusty katana. Sticking to your gear feels so much more natural - especially given the Shinobi setting - than changing equipment every 30 minutes just because you find new "loot". You have a tool that works. A super-sharp katana. Katana are like the pinneacle of swordcraft. Swords don't get more lethal than that. So you stick to it. Makes sense. Not from a game-y point of view - players always want to be rewarded with cool new gear - but realistically speaking, it makes sense sticking to a tool that you're familiar with.

When you have a katana in your hand to fight demons, you don't need another sword, okay? There is no such thing as a katana that adds 20 more damage. This is just bloat and Sekiro has none of that.

Plus you don't have to distribute level up points to your attributes. Sekiro cuts all the crap and just lets you play the actual game without having to worry about this kind of micromanagement.


I've heard many people say Sekiro is the hardest From Software game to date, much harder than any Souls game.

I don't know what to make of this. I never beat a Souls game. I still have to finish Sekiro as well, but I already played it farther than any Souls game. Demon's Souls in 2009 was my first Souls game and I always found them tedious, slow and hard since then. Not hard in a good way, more like archaically hard. I didn't like the death traps that highlighted the trial and error nature of the games, the slow and clunky movement, equipment load, or the unfairly distributed save points, which made your way back to the bosses unnecessary long and tedious. These games had bosses that killed me with two strikes, after 15 seconds in total. The main character moving at the speed of an ant, with the grace of a tank didn't make things any better.

When you spend 15 seconds with a boss before getting beaten, there is not much to learn from that encounter, like how to deal damage or how to dodge more effectively. And now you have to go all the way back to this boss. 20 times. Until you beat it. That always frustrated me. I called it bad game design. Sekiro isn't easy, but it lets me easily move my character the way I want for starters, without running out of stamina, and it has fairly placed save points. That really helps to keep the motivation up.

You could say the movement in Sekiro doesn't feel restricted like in Souls games. It lets me move around in what feels like an appropriate, modern way for such a game. Playing the new Demon's Souls really highlights this. I don't want to run out of stamina every 10 seconds. It feels archaic and restricting, when all I want to do is exploring this atmospheric ancient ruins.


Plus the actual fighting mechanics in Sekiro are insanely fun (to me).

Combat is simple on the outside, but often simple is best. You don't have tons of nonsensical button combinations for attack combos and such. Yet the game offers deep, satisfying and nerve-racking encounters. Yes, you have to learn how to parry and you don't have much choice otherwise. Maybe that's not what players expect from a (From Software) game, maybe they expect a certain degree of customization. But it's a completely viable way to design a game. And I love it. I don't want to try for half an hour if the dagger is better than the short sword, I don't want to handle equipment load.

In Sekiro I spend less time trying to figure out the best way to play the game and just play the game instead.

You just use your reduced combat options and have fun with them.


Games are bloated into oblivion nowadays.

They feature weapon trees, crafting incredients, attributes, skill combos, level up mechanics for every little thing.

When I played Far Cry 4 I eventually stacked a hilarious amount of skill point without spending them, because the skills all seemed so trivial. It felt like the only reason this game had skills was for the sake of having skills. I like roleplaying games, even turn-based slow ones. But sometimes I don't want to deal with customization and micromanagement, and that's why I like games like Sekiro, that are bold enough to keep it simple in this day and age.

I haven't quite finished it, but I already beat a good amount of bosses, more than in any other Souls game, and I'm doing really well. There are bosses I even beat on the first attempt.

For years I thought Dark Souls would be way cooler if these games cut all the crap and played more streamlined and focused, like the classic PC Hack'n Slay game Severance. Sekiro does exactly that. I definitely see why the game has won so many accolades. What for it tries to accomplish, it doesn't get any better than that.


TL;DR:

Sekiro lets you just play the actual game without having to deal with superficial, bloated, game-y mechanics such as weapon and character customization, stamina bars or inventory micromanagement. The controls and movement mechanics for exploring the game world have been modernized and are just plain fun. It's one of the rare games that keep things sweet and simple in this day and age and that's why I like it a lot. And on PS5 you can enjoy the fantastic art style at wonderfully smooth 60fps.

sure sekiro is great ONCE

dark souls is great 10 times +

so overall no
 

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
There's a happy medium to be found. Sekiro doesn't need a character creator or a ton of identical weapons that only slightly vary in damage output, but I would have loved to been able to find new sets of armor to complement my play style or provide protection against situational hazards. It would have given me more impetus to really explore the environments. Almost every collectible in Sekiro is junk that's not worth the effort of picking up.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
Less options doesn't necessary mean more focused, like, someone sticking to a single weapon in DS(which is how a lot of people play, especially in BB) is having a far more focused experience than someone playing Sekiro.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,372
I love making my own builds. I also think that the "build" in Sekiro is a lot more fun to play than probably anything in the Dark Souls series (and I'm a big fan). You're strong, fast, and mobile. Your block and parry are powerful & easier to use than most games. And the prosthetic tools give you a lot of versatility. It's like playing a Dex build in Dark Souls that also has the block of a Str build and has the random abilities of a Mage build. Also you have a grappling hook and stealth is viable.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
I just started playing Sekiro and it seems like I can use the grappling hook to bypass major parts of these encounters and even chunks of the area. Should I be doing that? Am I meant to play it Souls style where you "fight everything in the area enough times to know where to safely run past"?
 

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,157
I just started playing Sekiro and it seems like I can use the grappling hook to bypass major parts of these encounters and even chunks of the area. Should I be doing that? Am I meant to play it Souls style where you "fight everything in the area enough times to know where to safely run past"?
In Sekiro, it is extremely easy to avoid most encounters, thanks to the grappling points, unlimited sprint, jump, and general level layout. Try to avoid doing it though, you're ruining the experience for yourself. Take the time to explore and find NPCs, hidden items, weapons, etc. not to mention just building your skills against normal enemies that you'll need when fighting bosses.
 

Altrich

Member
Apr 5, 2018
736
Being accustomed to so many traditional rpg mechanics like:

-end game weapons / spells being much much stronger than early game weapons/ spells,
-puzzles are jigsaw/ matching types and rarely environmental
-story is spoon fed with many expositions
-linear stats progression
-No stamina or action penalties

Made me really puzzled with the design choices on my first 20-30 hrs of dark souls, but then it clicked with me.

Weapons and spells are designed as such so it gives you insane freedom to create capable characters however you want e.g. in the right hand those early game weapons can be just as devastating as late game weapons. More importantly, it brought a lot of flavors to the pvp and coop experience. Yes pvp is not perfect and i too was salty at first bcs i dont know how to deal with backstabbers but eventually i learned the rope and it gives me appreciation to every single weapons, items, movesets and spells in this game. It's really really hard to have a functioning action rpg while still have interesting and relatively fair pvp. Like really, name me some games that can accomplish this pre soulsborne era.

Likewise with other design choices, puzzles are environmental as it made you pay more attentions to the world created around you, the NPCs around you AND the items you found, which made solving it an important milestones and made you appreciate everything even more. This also true with the story telling, only if you pay attentions you can get ideas on what was transpired in the world and the characters motivation. This is a game that shamelessly tell us that it was meant to be played in multiple playthroughs which i dont mind doing bcs each playthroughs presented me with different challenges, playstyles, guilds, endings, etc.

Also, soft capping stats and stamina penalties made sense bcs not only it'll stop you from abusing the attack buttons and becoming ridiculously OP, those are also a good recipes for a challenging pvp and coop experience. OP have you tried PVP-ing in dark souls?
 

TCB

Member
Oct 19, 2019
721
I agree with the op, but also agree with others here. I wouldn't consider the options in the Souls games 'bloat' and I don't think they are a bad thing.

Personally I don't like having so many customization options in a really difficult game, because when I die, I want to know it was based purely on my skill and not because of a certain build I was using. You could argue that if you get good enough at a Souls game, you can use whatever build you want and still beat it. I mean, there are people who do not hit runs wearing no armor and using only a basic weapon. But when I'm playing a Souls game I always have this feeling of doubt in the back of my mind and I feel overwhelmed by the amount of choices.

I think it just comes down to personal preference. Like the op, I also vastly prefer the faster paced combat and mobility options in Sekiro. I also don't like having to think about stamina in an action game. But these are things I personally enjoy, and clearly there are many people who prefer the slower more methodical Souls games.

It's probably why I've never finished one of them, and I've tried them all, whereas I've finished Sekiro twice. I found when I died in Sekiro I wanted to get better, when I died in a Souls game I wanted to turn it off.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
In Sekiro, it is extremely easy to avoid most encounters, thanks to the grappling points, unlimited sprint, jump, and general level layout. Try to avoid doing it though, you're ruining the experience for yourself. Take the time to explore and find NPCs, hidden items, weapons, etc. not to mention just building your skills against normal enemies that you'll need when fighting bosses.
So on the flip side lets say I see three dudes standing around together. Jumping in to just try and fight them seems like suicide. How should I approach an encounter like that?
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,129
I like Souls better than Sekiro, however I am with you OP. I do really appreciate the focused nature of Sekiro.
 

GattsuSama

Member
Mar 12, 2020
1,761
Sekiro to me is the best because it is tight. Tighter than any game they had done before and I love it for it.
 

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,157
So on the flip side lets say I see three dudes standing around together. Jumping in to just try and fight them seems like suicide. How should I approach an encounter like that?
You can use a pot shard to pull one of them toward you, or you can run in and aggro them and then flee, separating them as they attempt to pursue you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
I did the bad ending first and then had to replay the entire game to get an actual final chapter and real ending. That wouldn't have sucked if the game had worthwhile customization and build variety, but there wasn't, so that second run really soured me on the game.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,358
"I prefer action-adventure games over RPGs", the thread

Like, okay? I like both genres and find value in both too, myself 🤷‍♀️
 

ManNR

Member
Feb 13, 2019
2,964
One quick counterpoint on the difficulty of Sekiro, do keep in mind that Sekiro has a higher mechanical execution requirement than other Souls games. The upshot is that when you master it, or break through the initial barrier, I think it's one of the most rewarding feelings in games. But it is more difficult to get there. You also can't adopt heavier armour sets if you know you're not good at dodging and prefer to tank and spank.

Folks who are adept at grasping the mechanical intensity of Sekiro quickly may find it an easier game, but if you are not as good at timing or executing the dance, you'd probably find it a lot harder than Souls.

This is a great comment. However, I'd like to add my personal experience for context.

I do not consider myself skilled at timing or rhythm-based gameplay mechanics. In fact I consider my skill in these types of games the supreme weakness in my gaming toolkit.

However, once I broke through the initial barrier of Sekiro's combat I began to realize that Sekiro is less of a rhythm game (in regards to rapid & exact execution of mechanics) & more of a pattern-recognition game.

Even the fastest enemies in the game can be parried through recognition of patterns.
I do not find Sekiro battles to more intense than other Souls games. I do find that the combat appeals to me more than that of other Souls games.

However, Sekiro has taught me to read more fluently the Souls game logic/language and this is now translating to other Souls games. In that regard it has increased my love for the larger genre.

So excited for Elden Ring!
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I don't know why you guys keep repeating and insisting on comparing 2 completely different series just because they're made by the same company
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,734
I don't know why you guys keep repeating and insisting on comparing 2 completely different series just because they're made by the same company

To be fair, From invited the comparisons themselves by basically stuffing Tenchu mechanics into the shell of a Soulsborne game.

Like they had to know people would compare Sekiro to Souls, and if they didn't want people to do that, they wouldn't have had Sekiro lean on so many vestigial Souls design concepts as it does. They knew this would happen.