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Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,776
Elf Tower, New Mexico
I'm diving in now, but I'm all about this topic so I expect it to be amazing. 1 hour and 27 minutes on fanfic?! YES PLEASE

youtu.be

An Exhaustive Defense of Fanfiction

On art, transformativity, and the literary wonders of putting your middle finger up at preps. AND THEN WE DANCED is now streaming on MUBI in the US and Canad...
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
I write fanfic. Or try to.

But not like with preexisting characters but I like taking prestablished worlds and their rules/archetypes and doing my own spin. Like Yugioh, Kamen Rider, or Digimon. It's fun.
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,247
Whenever I see "Is X art?" the answer from me is yes.

But that in no way implies it's good.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,944
Of course, it's only a matter of time before I accumulate the funds to open the world's first Shrek erotic fanart museum
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,512
The Aeneid of Virgil is technically fanfiction, but it became sort of an official sequel to Homer works.

TNlxXPW.png
 

adj_noun

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,217
Depends on who's defining art.

Let's let wikipedia do it!

There is no generally agreed definition of what constitutes art

aw, phooey
 
Finished this a bit ago. It's pretty lively. Essentially, she isn't treating "is it art" as if nobody has ever said "even if you don't like it, it's still art".

It's more about the history of why people get tripped up over the label of art, when a work is perceived as "derivative".

She actually examines "Dante's Inferno is fanfic" in point of fact.
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,948
The only problem here is that people including Ebert have long associated art to perceived baseline quality. It isn't. I have a very, possibly rudimentary view here which is that anything anyone creates and shares with others, including a shitpost on a goofy videogame forum, is art.

It could be dreadful art. It could even be a post by OP. But it's art nonetheless.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,095
I consider art to just be any form of creative expression, so I don't see why this wouldn't be considered art under that interpretation of the word.
 

Danby

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 7, 2020
3,016
The only problem here is that people including Ebert have long associated art to perceived baseline quality. It isn't. I have a very, possibly rudimentary view here which is that anything anyone creates and shares with others, including a shitpost on a goofy videogame forum, is art.

It could be dreadful art. It could even be a post by OP. But it's art nonetheless.
Its frustrating that a child with a set of watercolors creates art simply because there is no word for it otherwise. And yet we allow this convo to drag on and on for other mediums.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,512
I suppose that this is similar to why so many get hung up on whether something is canon or not.

In an age were the most profitable characters in the history of fiction are not being written by their creators, but by a wide variety fan artists that borrow these works, then some consumers require a symbolic "official seal of approval" that comes in the way of canon. The minute something loses its canon status it becomes "lesser", it becomes almost fan-fiction.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
I can't copy/paste from YouTube's app, but there was a good quote about fanfiction repairing damage left because of corporations owning our modern mythology.

I'm torn. On one hand, creators should get paid. Will that still be possible if companies acknowledge fan creations?
 

Tycho Kepler

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Apr 22, 2018
2,236
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, but yes. If writing is an art form then fanfic is art.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,963
The day corporations turn their eyes on fanfic will be a dark day indeed.
 

MaxAugust

Member
Jan 28, 2018
3,149
People arguing over what is and is not art, or more specifically what is and is not literature, has always seemed stupid to me. It is just pointless semantics with I guess with the possible exception of when it is relevant legally for free speech reasons or whatever. But even then, court cases are decided based on what is art according to the law as written which is almost by definition more limited than what a lot of people might consider to be art.
 

Joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,615
bookmarking to watch later, but definitely. everyone makes art. good for them.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
The answers is obviously "yes" but I'm ofc down to watch Sarah Z explain why for an hour and a half.

I hope there's a section on crack fic because the genre is unironically great, especially political crack fic
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
The question is obviously yes, but it's interesting to discuss how the different forms are compared when they have some fundamentally different delivery methods. Fan fiction is something I've never gotten into and probably wouldn't.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,183
UK
Games are art, fanfic is art, stupid modern deconstructionist crap is art.

Its all art people. Move on.
The question is rhetorical, but the video delves in the history of how art has become more inclusive and how contemporary art came to be, starting from Duchamp's Fountain urinal in 1917. Dadaism (of which Duchamp was a part of) is a fascinating counter-movement to ultra realistic and romantic art that was highly regarded. Heck, people still posit that works of art need to look like they were absolutely hard to do, which belies a underlying sense of elitism. The changing views on the boundaries of art is what's fascinating and why the video is worth watching. The video talks about transformation as being art and I'm sure plenty of people would disagree that YouTube video essays or art critique could itself be art, which is a fascinating conversation.
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,948
"Fanfic" is just a dumb term anyway. It really just means unpaid writer. A great deal of the best stories we've ever had going back hundreds of years are glorified fan fiction (Shakespeare took almost all of his plots from elsewhere), and any great adaptation almost by definition is exactly that.
 

Kreve

Design Director
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
238
Knee jerk reaction to the question - Literature has been considered to be a great art form for forever. So yes, writing fiction is art? Why are we trying to individually confirm what topic you write about as art? This seems like a really flimsy crusade. It's like asking "Is painting a picture of a fox art?" Yes. Painting is Art.

New forms of media that don't fit into the molds of established art are the interesting ones to see the arguments about (Games etc)

Fanfiction is just free art where they don't own the rights to the characters or worlds they are playing in.

Ok I'll watch the video now.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,050
"Fanfic" is just a dumb term anyway. It really just means unpaid writer. A great deal of the best stories we've ever had going back hundreds of years are glorified fan fiction (Shakespeare took almost all of his plots from elsewhere), and any great adaptation almost by definition is exactly that.

All the parts about Arthurian Mythology everyone remembers (Lancelot, Love Triangle, Holy Grail, Mordred being Arthur's incest son, Morgan le Fay) were essentially fanfic added by later writers centuries after the original legend.
 

RetroRunner

Member
Dec 6, 2020
4,919
Her blinds being so terrible at insulating her home/apartment is aggravating, she should have enough views to afford better for her electric bills
 

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,455
I like Sarah Z's videos a lot but the names and thumbnails are honestly really bad and getting worse. They feel more and more clickbaity but the content of the videos themselves aren't getting worse. I only had time to watch like 1/4th of this video so far but it seems like another fun deep dive into fandom drama and the technicalities surrounding it but the title makes it sound like it's going to be something very different. It was especially bad with her previous video about binge watching. I think she even ended up changing that video's title.
 
OP
OP
Fiction

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,776
Elf Tower, New Mexico
I like Sarah Z's videos a lot but the names and thumbnails are honestly really bad and getting worse. They feel more and more clickbaity but the content of the videos themselves aren't getting worse. I only had time to watch like 1/4th of this video so far but it seems like another fun deep dive into fandom drama and the technicalities surrounding it but the title makes it sound like it's going to be something very different. It was especially bad with her previous video about binge watching. I think she even ended up changing that video's title.
I mostly ignore titles and thumbnails tbh. YouTube creators have to play the game if they want to get paid for their work. When a clickbait title and thumbnail is the difference between making money and not everyone is going to choose to play the dumb algorithm game. This is also why the majority of creators I watch will refer to death as "unalive" and words like sex as "adult naughties" . If they don't their video will be demonetized. Does that make them or the content bad? Nope.
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,184
Gotta love how Sarah Z threads always seem to end up with her presenting a plainly rhetorical question and people rushing in to focus on said question instead of the actual points of discussion within her videos. Every time, without fail. It's like clockwork lol.
And I actually don't think this title is necessarily a bad one cuz it's clearly being used as the springboard behind her ideas, but in the day and age of clickbait and knee jerk reactions it sure does her a disservice when it comes to discussion.

Anyway, this was a great essay! I really like her argument of how fanfiction should be considered its own medium and not just some lesser form of written literature. And following that, pointing out how the majority of works in any medium are bad; most photography is bad, most paintings are bad, most videos are bad, etc etc -- it's just that the really good ones are what rise to the top and get featured in galleries, lists, and shared around. I'd never really thought about it like this before, but 100000% the same is true for fanfiction. I have seen so many people (on this forum especially) who obviously don't read fanfics dismiss it as all shitty, awful writing full of boring clichés (the phrase, 'it's like fanfiction' comes to mind), and, yeah, the vast majority of fanfics are like that. But it's the same for any medium, and it's a bit unfair that they're always wholesale judged like this when no other mediums are, especially because there are fanfics out there that are genuinely amazing works of art.
 
OP
OP
Fiction

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,776
Elf Tower, New Mexico
Gotta love how Sarah Z threads always seem to end up with her presenting a plainly rhetorical question and people rushing in to focus on said question instead of the actual points of discussion within her videos. Every time, without fail. It's like clockwork lol.
And I actually don't think this title is necessarily a bad one cuz it's clearly being used as the springboard behind her ideas, but in the day and age of clickbait and knee jerk reactions it sure does her a disservice when it comes to discussion.

Anyway, this was a great essay! I really like her argument of how fanfiction should be considered its own medium and not just some lesser form of written literature. And following that, pointing out how the majority of works in any medium are bad; most photography is bad, most paintings are bad, most videos are bad, etc etc -- it's just that the really good ones are what rise to the top and get featured in galleries, lists, and shared around. I'd never really thought about it like this before, but 100000% the same is true for fanfiction. I have seen so many people (on this forum especially) who obviously don't read fanfics dismiss it as all shitty, awful writing full of boring clichés (the phrase, 'it's like fanfiction' comes to mind), and, yeah, the vast majority of fanfics are like that. But it's the same for any medium, and it's a bit unfair that they're always wholesale judged like this when no other mediums are, especially because there are fanfics out there that are genuinely amazing works of art.
Yeah I really love that break down too. Because fanfic consumption is almost like breaking down art consumption as a whole: when you look for fanfic, you 100% that most of what you click is going to end up with you quickly hitting the back button. And then you eventually find ways to find the real good stuff easily: Rec lists, authors you already know are good and their bookmarks, etc. It's really interesting because she's right: My oil paintings are art. They are not ever going to hanging in museums or sold for thousands of dollars. That doesn't mean they aren't art. They are the mediocre/bad slough that is the majority of any form of art.
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,184
Yeah I really love that break down too. Because fanfic consumption is almost like breaking down art consumption as a whole: when you look for fanfic, you 100% that most of what you click is going to end up with you quickly hitting the back button. And then you eventually find ways to find the real good stuff easily: Rec lists, authors you already know are good and their bookmarks, etc. It's really interesting because she's right: My oil paintings are art. They are not ever going to hanging in museums or sold for thousands of dollars. That doesn't mean they aren't art. They are the mediocre/bad slough that is the majority of any form of art.
Yeah, for sure! And oh boy, especially bless to AO3's sort by kudos option LOL.

But yeah, that negative stereotype around fanfiction has always bothered me but I've never quite been able to put my finger down on exactly why before. Like, as much as I enjoy fanfiction, folks aren't wrong that the majority of it is schlock -- I maybe find five decent fics out of three pages of works most the time. But seeing Sarah Z frame it how she did really put it into perspective for me. It's that fanfic is its own form of art and so deserves to be compared against itself and not pit up against other forms of media.
 

Xequalsy

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
386
What I was particularly interested in was the group of people picked out that apparently were "anti-book"?

That really baffled me, because from my experience almost everyone I've known or met in fandom either are hobbyist authors who do eventually want to get published or love reading books in general. I think it's interesting, because certainly for me, I've read less books compared to when I was younger, but I think overall that's a matter of preference because of how accessible fanfic is compared to buying books/going to a library.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Derived art is still art. I need to watch the video to see if there's more to this argument but on the face of it it seems like a pointless question to ask.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,501
25 minutes in, good stuff so far

What I was particularly interested in was the group of people picked out that apparently were "anti-book"?

That really baffled me, because from my experience almost everyone I've known or met in fandom either are hobbyist authors who do eventually want to get published or love reading books in general. I think it's interesting, because certainly for me, I've read less books compared to when I was younger, but I think overall that's a matter of preference because of how accessible fanfic is compared to buying books/going to a library.
A big chunk is just backlash to the anti-fanfic rhetoric, though there are certainly groups of people that only experienced "proper" novels through school. Rather than simply not reading anything at all, like most would have back in the day, a lot of them are reading fanfics and, without school making it painful, perceive fanfics as better than "proper" novels, and thus reached the "fanfics are better than novels" idea that way.