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Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,850
Better visuals ? Better netcode ? Crossplay ?


No ! Let's add 120 fps so that now some players will have half input lag and twice the frames to react to VS the majority of the player base.

Yikes man. I don't care that FPS games allow this, fighting games should always strive for parity to ensure skill is the determining factor. Not hardware. And before you mention input lag from display, none of it is anywhere near close to what 120fps to 60 fps is.
 

secretanchitman

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,779
Chicago, IL
Better visuals ? Better netcode ? Crossplay ?


No ! Let's add 120 fps so that now some players will have half input lag and twice the frames to react to VS the majority of the player base.

Yikes man. I don't care that FPS games allow this, fighting games should always strive for parity to ensure skill is the determining factor. Not hardware. And before you mention input lag from display, none of it is anywhere near close to what 120fps to 60 fps is.

Yeah these are my thoughts pretty much. I'm not interested in picking up a new fighting game this gen unless it has rollback (thankfully GGS has it, hoping KOFXV does too).
 

Chindogg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,239
East Lansing, MI
Yeah I'm not so sure about 120fps. 60fps is a standard for timing and understanding startup and recovery of moves. Messing with that for one game on one console will just isolate it from being accepted than it already has been.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
Unless you play console games with a 120hz monitor... I don't see how it is a big deal.
It is a not of a big deal, but if a few can enjoy it, why not? It also opens the door to this being an option for future games and when 120hz compatible displays are owned by more people. My tv supports 120hz but i don't use it for games that allow it on my ps5. I like better visuals, and 60 is already great.
I can see an 120 hz mode being on KoFXV at launch if this works well enough for Samsho
 

Deleted member 29691

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,883
So in a game like this, does somebody playing at 120fps have a clear advantage over somebody playing with 60?
 

dstarMDA

Member
Dec 22, 2017
4,289
Better visuals ? Better netcode ? Crossplay ?


No ! Let's add 120 fps so that now some players will have half input lag and twice the frames to react to VS the majority of the player base.

Yikes man. I don't care that FPS games allow this, fighting games should always strive for parity to ensure skill is the determining factor. Not hardware. And before you mention input lag from display, none of it is anywhere near close to what 120fps to 60 fps is.
I may be missing something but your statement seems wrong. Input lag in TVs can range from 10ms for the very best performers (with monitors being even better) to the upper 30s, even in Game Mode and on non-budget displays.

Going from 60 to 120 is only a 8ms input lag boost. Even also accounting for the visual information arriving earlier, it isn't making a bigger difference than displays.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,106
Is a cool addition, but I doubt that most of SNK's fanbase owns an 120hz tv.

At least it will be interesting since the game will probably get some publicity through Digital Foundry
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,850
I may be missing something but your statement seems wrong. Input lag in TVs can range from 10ms for the very best performers (with monitors being even better) to the upper 30s, even in Game Mode and on non-budget displays.

Going from 60 to 120 is only a 8ms input lag boost. Even also accounting for the visual information arriving earlier, it isn't making a bigger difference than displays.

Ok.

And so you think adding even more parameters to ensure nobody has the same experience is a good thing ... ?
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,683
How does this work? Noob question here.

If a game has 60 frames of animation displayed in a second, then have the artists doubled the drawings/artwork to make it 120 frames a second? Or it would just play at double speed?

I'm sure someone will correct me, but I assume that as it's now 3D, the animation is key frame based, so only certain frames are fixed in time and all the in between frames are interpolated between them.

So those key animation frames will exist at the same point in time whether the game is 60 or 120fps , it's the non-artist set frames that make up the bulk of what you see.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,236
This is extremely niche update and would have been better to add rollback netcode.

I hate fighting games.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,683
Better visuals ? Better netcode ? Crossplay ?


No ! Let's add 120 fps so that now some players will have half input lag and twice the frames to react to VS the majority of the player base.

Yikes man. I don't care that FPS games allow this, fighting games should always strive for parity to ensure skill is the determining factor. Not hardware. And before you mention input lag from display, none of it is anywhere near close to what 120fps to 60 fps is.
The problem with this logic is that things can never change if someone doesn't come forwards and do it.
I don't fully under why it's ok for a FPS to do this , something which high level players and pros take advantage of , but it's NOT ok for a fighting game. That seems like a double standard for equally competive products.
 

dstarMDA

Member
Dec 22, 2017
4,289
Ok.

And so you think adding even more parameters to ensure nobody has the same experience is a good thing ... ?
I don't think I have said that, I was merely mitigating your hyperbole.

Though I do believe that providing support for an improved experience is a good thing, yes. People do not play with the same input devices nor on the same displays - achieving parity seems like a fantasy to me, especially when it comes to fine margins like this.
 

Streusel

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Dec 28, 2017
2,407
they likely got paid by Xbox to make a Series Version (it was announced at their TGS showcase). there's probably not much to improve graphically (unless they overhauled it all together), so they upped the framerate.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,084
Better visuals ? Better netcode ? Crossplay ?


No ! Let's add 120 fps so that now some players will have half input lag and twice the frames to react to VS the majority of the player base.

Yikes man. I don't care that FPS games allow this, fighting games should always strive for parity to ensure skill is the determining factor. Not hardware. And before you mention input lag from display, none of it is anywhere near close to what 120fps to 60 fps is.
You're too deep into this lol. 120FPS is a great addition and not everyone cares for tourney level parity. I'm sure there's a toggle for it too in the game. And tournaments will enforce some parity.

FGC folks drive me nuts at times lol.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,373
Anyone plays this on PC? How big is the Online userbase?
The game is Epic exclusive and has no crossplay. That should answer your question.

The way they're hyping this up on Twitter....I can't help but feel their priorities are in the wrong place. Nobody asked for 120fps, yet everybody asked for rollback and crossplay. And we know they know this.

Yes, obviously this is far easier than implementing rollback/crossplay but they could at least comment on it and put everyone at ease. Just a simple "we are committed to rollback netcode going forward" or something.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,850
I don't think I have said that, I was merely mitigating your hyperbole.

Though I do believe that providing support for an improved experience is a good thing, yes. People do not play with the same input devices nor on the same displays - achieving parity seems like a fantasy to me, especially when it comes to fine margins like this.

It wouldn't need less input lag if it didn't have the worst delay based netcode made in the past decade.

Focusing on rollback would have benefited all versions of the game and every single player.


The problem with this logic is that things can never change if someone doesn't come forwards and do it.
I don't fully under why it's ok for a FPS to do this , something which high level players and pros take advantage of , but it's NOT ok for a fighting game. That seems like a double standard for equally competive products.

But it's not OK. It's pure garbage that competitive games do that, it's accepted in those communities, good for them. (and it requires so many players, + the fact PC hardware has never been fixed so it's in their inception)

Fighting games do not need that.

So Switch, PC, Ps4/5 basically play a completely different version, how do you have a tournament with this ? Do you shaft the xbox players or everyone else ?

And within the Xbox player base now you constantly have to wonder if you're running the game far better than your opponent (or vice versa), you can never tell if the match is fair or not.

Also I feel like in those difficult times and with those consoles being pricey to begin with, not many people are going to change their 4K TV (or hell 1080p cause according to numbers it's still the king) any time soon to the point where this is a beneficial change.

Like I said, between better visuals, crossplay or rollback, a lot of things could have benefited this game.

They picked something that in my opinion does more harm than good.
 
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Chucker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,331
Maryland
Alright, so now I need this to go on sale digitally, kthx.

I've been meaning to pick this up forever but just never did.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,084
It wouldn't need less input lag if it didn't have the worst delay based netcode made in the past decade.

Focusing on rollback would have benefited all versions of the game and every single player.




But it's not OK. It's pure garbage that competitive games do that, it's accepted in those communities, good for them.

Fighting games do not need that.

So Switch, PC, Ps4/5 basically play a completely different version, how do you have a tournament with this ? Do you shaft the xbox players or everyone else ?

And within the Xbox player base now you constantly have to wonder if you're running the game far better than your opponent (or vice versa), you can never tell if the match is fair or not.

Also I feel like in those difficult times and with those consoles being pricey to begin with, not many people are going to change their 4K TV (or hell 1080p cause according to numbers it's still the king) any time soon to the point where this is a beneficial change.

Like I said, between better visuals, crossplay or rollback, a lot of things could have benefited this game.

They picked something that in my opinion does more harm than good.
Do you think 120FPS is gonna be the standard that tourney level players would be playing? Of course not. You can still play 60fps on that platform.

I do agree with your statements regarding netcode, but you're acting like a 120FPS is a huge negative. Come on. It's not. It's great option for those that can swing it display wise.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,236
You're too deep into this lol. 120FPS is a great addition and not everyone cares for tourney level parity. I'm sure there's a toggle for it too in the game. And tournaments will enforce some parity.

FGC folks drive me nuts at times lol.

We want features that every other genre get, support.

Fighting games requires precise input and delayed based netcode kills fighting games longevity and cross play helps find games easier.

These are two things Japanese fighting games try to avoid to do.
 

Banana Aeon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,260
I don't know if this is going to matter in the long run. SamSho doesn't have tight combos or anything that really requires precise frame counting. And I doubt other fight game makers, outside of Neatherrealm, which play like shit already, would even bother.

I love me some high refresh rate gaming, but fighting games were not a genre I expected to ever play at above 60.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
Well that's mighty interesting. Maybe that's the future of fighting games for the foreseeable future, as long as releases keep on being crossgen.
How does this work? Noob question here.

If a game has 60 frames of animation displayed in a second, then have the artists doubled the drawings/artwork to make it 120 frames a second? Or it would just play at double speed?
The game engine fills in the additional frames.
 

Jamrock User

Member
Jan 24, 2018
3,163
The worst running online of any fighting game now runs at 120fps? Harry Poggers?

Yes I have to talk about how bad this game runs everytime. I actually bought it day one only to be burned like a sucker.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
Is a cool addition, but I doubt that most of SNK's fanbase owns an 120hz tv.

At least it will be interesting since the game will probably get some publicity through Digital Foundry
In fact most of snk fanbase will probably be on pc or ps. But since xb bc solution is more flexible than ps, it is also logical to start here.
 

Barrel Cannon

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,294
Wooo, hoping more fighting games can add this too. I'm sure we'll see new games be 120fps on PS5 too, the only reason this isn't on 120 on ps5 is cause of it being a last gen title.

Also in before some fanboy comes in and says 120 doesn't matter for competitive fighting games.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
Fighting games do not need that.

So Switch, PC, Ps4/5 basically play a completely different version, how do you have a tournament with this ? Do you shaft the xbox players or everyone else ?
You make some utterly bizarre FG-related posts sometimes. Fighting games have always had a preferred version for tournament play. It's up to each individual scene to collectively decide that. Are you a pro player? No? Then it's not going to affect you buddy.

And fighting games absolutely need the lowest amount of input latency they can get. 120hz would theoretically slash it in half. Don't act like people don't care about that, after the shitfit everyone threw when SFV used to have 8 frames of lag at launch.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
Oh cool now I can stare at the looking for match screen in 120 FPS for hours because nobody plays this game. That's what it was missing, more frames! Not rollback netcode or crossplay
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
A better online experience matters a hell of a lot more than more fps.
Increasing the framerate costs virtually nothing.

It's not like SNK is trading a potential rollback netcode update for a 120hz refresh rate.

Why is this forum like this.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,106
The cool thing is that this probably means than KOF 15 will be at 120 fps if is released on XBOX

Maybe I should buy a 120 hz tv for my XSX
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
Increasing the framerate costs virtually nothing.

It's not like SNK is trading a potential rollback netcode update for a 120hz refresh rate.

Why is this forum like this.

I think SamSho is just a frustrating game to follow overall. It's full of weird/bad decisions and these kinds of things add up
 
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DanteMenethil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,058
Why are people equating increasing the fps cap to implementing rollback lmao. They are not even in the same stratosphere of cost and effort. And yeah the lower input lag the better. Let's not crab bucket because you don't want to buy a 120hz display.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,850
You make some utterly bizarre FG-related posts sometimes. Fighting games have always had a preferred version for tournament play. It's up to each individual scene to collectively decide that. Are you a pro player? No? Then it's not going to affect you buddy.

And fighting games absolutely need the lowest amount of input latency they can get. 120hz would theoretically slash it in half. Don't act like people don't care about that, after the shitfit everyone threw when SFV used to have 8 frames of lag at launch.

? I didn't say the solution was hard to find, I said they created a problem that wasn't there. Now you end up shafting a version of the game.

Instead of focusing on inclusivity on a niche genre (and even more niche licence) so that everyone plays the same game with minor differences you basically create two distincts versions.

Not only is it a problem for online tournaments because they can't ensure parity, it also makes it harder for offline.

I am not saying input lag doesn't matter ? The hell ? Input lag can be extremely acceptable at 60 htz, the fact some recent games (or bad ports of older games) fucked it up is their problem, which they should fix. 120htz is a band aid, it's not fixing the underlying problem. If other games can get it right they have no excuse (and sure enough both SFV and Samsho had horrendous input lag and lowered it quite a bit after people got vocal). And again, rollback netcode in a game that has a decent input lag feels great and you never feel like inputs are a problem. I've been playing the GG AC update with people from EU vs US and it felt like a dream. KI feels great. You can use higher rendering internally if that can help; no problem with that. My only issue is the split.

And being so dense about it a bit irritating.

I think I was foolish for expecting them to improve online (for everyone) or add crossplay so that there's people to fight against. Adding another divide in the community is not what I expected and that's why I reacted very negatively.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
Hopefully more FGs follow.

How does this work? Noob question here.

If a game has 60 frames of animation displayed in a second, then have the artists doubled the drawings/artwork to make it 120 frames a second? Or it would just play at double speed?
It's just the game's logic running at 120, sprits based fighting games and ASW cartoonish style games already have the animation running at much lower than 60fps, so something like this wouldn't change how those games look much outside of smoother jumps and less input delay. But stuff like SS, Tekken and SFV will overall look smoother while running at 120fps, since their animation can scale with it.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,106
I wish than Smart Delivery meant getting the game on PC as well, but I guess that we are still far off from Epic 1 year exclusivity
 

Barrel Cannon

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,294
I think I was foolish for expecting them to improve online (for everyone) or add crossplay so that there's people to fight against. Adding another divide in the community is not what I expected and that's why I reacted very negatively.
We all want better netcode. At the end of the day it's how most of us will play the game primarily, especially now in covid times. It just feels a bit harsh to complain about them adding 120fps play when it was likely a small amount of work. I do feel your pain because I hate playing most fighters online and rollback code definitely would help a ton. I just don't expect it to come to the game at this point.
 
Nov 24, 2020
1,539
Tampa, Fl
God when it first came out the community on xbox was dead anyways. Cannot imagine what it is like now, the online is just awful. I mean 120fps is nice but how about fixing some real issue.
 

Xtortion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,645
United States
The increase in responsiveness at 120hz is significant. Ori and the Will of the Wisps on Series X is a good way to test the difference, because you can flip between 60/120hz very quickly in-game. I thought Ori was perfectly responsive at 60 on XB1X, but goddamn does it feel crisp at 120hz. There's an immediacy to inputs at 120hz that can make 60 feel somewhat sluggish when comparing them back to back. Even something as simple as pressing the jump button feels much better to me. Fighting games are a genre where split second decision making can make the difference between winning and losing, and having this added responsiveness should be a no brainer.
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,232
It's just the game's logic running at 120, sprits based fighting games and ASW cartoonish style games already have the animation running at much lower than 60fps, so something like this wouldn't change how those games look much outside of smoother jumps and less input delay. But stuff like SS, Tekken and SFV will overall look smoother while running at 120fps, since their animation can scale with it.

Actually, it's entirely possible the game logic still runs at 60 fps and they just pushed the graphics to 120 fps. It wouldn't require any big adjustment to the game's code and the game would look smoother as a result. SNK is unlikely to waste too much time on a feature very few people will be using.
 

NeoChaos

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,273
NorCal
Actually, it's entirely possible the game logic still runs at 60 fps and they just pushed the graphics to 120 fps. It wouldn't require any big adjustment to the game's code and the game would look smoother as a result. SNK is unlikely to waste too much time on a feature very few people will be using.
This more likely what's going on, they decoupled the game logic from the graphics. It's definitely a more future proof method of running the engine, but you'd have to redesign how moves are planned (instead of frame data, you'd have to have startup/active time/recovery for moves measured around actual measurements of time instead of frames of animation).

This USF4 benchmark vid shows what happens when you still have game logic tied to graphics but allow high framerates: