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Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,086
It's not just about appreciating and respecting it though, that's fair enough.

He's asking people to remember to refer to "Sam Smith" specifically as "they or them", rather than 99.9% of the rest of the population that aren't offended be referred to as "he or she", lest they unintentionally cause them (Sam Smith) embarrassment or emotional distress.

Again, this isn't an attack on thier (Sam Smith's) decision, just simply pointing out that most people will totally forget to do it without intended to cause offence. Hell, I made about four "errors" typing out this post that had to be corrected.

It really is getting trickier and trickier to play by the rules these days.

Edit: Reading through the rest of the thread I've literally only just noticed that your post referred to Sam Smith as he and not they. See this is what I'm talking about! It's a minefield.

One, that's a bullshit percentage. Two, it'd be difficult to actually get an accurate percentage because being non-binary is so stigmatized and misunderstood that it's often difficult for people to both come to grips with and decide to come out about their own experiences with gender. Three, the way you've framed this post is actively hurtful. You think having to remember peoples' pronouns is a minefield? Imagine actually being trans. Imagine innately knowing your own gender, wanting nothing more than to be accepted as you are, just so you can go on living your own life. You never know who's going to accept you, not even your own family or friends. You have to weigh your options every time you even think of being honest about yourself with people, because if you choose the wrong person to trust, they can make your life a living hell. You decide you wanna go fully public with your identity, like Sam did? Now you've exposed yourself to the internet trolls as well, who can and will take every opportunity they can to scream at you about how little they acknowledge your existence. You log into Resetera and open this thread hoping to see some support for a highly visible person coming out themselves, only to be hit with a wave of posts denying the validity of they/them pronouns, and posts like yours bemoaning how tricky it is to live in a society where trans people exist.

Needless to say, being trans is a hell of a lot tricker than your situation, so you'll have to forgive me for not feeling much sympathy. I get that nobody's perfect, mistakes with pronouns happen. But next time you catch a mistake while writing a post? Just fix it and move on. Believe me, we know plenty of people are gonna fuck this stuff up, we really don't need to be reminded about how seemingly hopeless of an endeavor it is.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
It's not just about appreciating and respecting it though, that's fair enough.

He's asking people to remember to refer to "Sam Smith" specifically as "they or them", rather than 99.9% of the rest of the population that aren't offended be referred to as "he or she", lest they unintentionally cause them (Sam Smith) embarrassment or emotional distress.

Again, this isn't an attack on thier (Sam Smith's) decision, just simply pointing out that most people will totally forget to do it without intended to cause offence. Hell, I made about four "errors" typing out this post that had to be corrected.

It really is getting trickier and trickier to play by the rules these days.

Edit: Reading through the rest of the thread I've literally only just noticed that your post referred to Sam Smith as he and not they. See this is what I'm talking about! It's a minefield.
If remembering someone's pronouns is this hard for you how do you manage to get through your day.

When you drive to work do you keep referring to your car as a horse? Are you constantly calling all your co-workers by different names? Do you even remember where you live or do yoy just keep knocking on random people's door hoping you get to the right house?
 

CDX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,476
Even being a gay man and completely accepting of everyone, neither do I honestly. I don't think I ever will either, but I'm glad he's happy.

I have a question. What would be the correct grammar in that type of sentence when using they as a singular pronoun?
With singular pronouns he or she you'd always use is. When using they as a plural pronoun you'd always use are.


But what is correct when using they as a singular pronoun?


glad they are happy?
or
or glad they is happy?
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,086
I have a question. What would be the correct grammar in that type of sentence when using they as a singular pronoun?
With singular pronouns he or she you'd always use is. When using they as a plural pronoun you'd always use are.


But what is correct when using they as a singular pronoun?


glad they are happy?
or
or glad they is happy?

The former is correct.
 

Rotkehle

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
3,320
Hamm, Germany
It's used in casual English all the time when the gender is neutral/unknown.
"Did you see that person who took your food?"
"No. Where are they?"

Same thing grammatically.
I've never heard or read this response the your first sentence.
I would ask:

"No. where is this person." to use a plural they would never. Come into my mind.
Don't get me wrong. I want to address every person how they want to. Its a learning process.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,251
That doesn't make sense. Are is plural. A mom binary person isn't a plural person.

People in all kinds of places talk about singular people via "they are", often because one doesn't want to make assumptions about another posters gender. - as a replacement for "he or she + singular"
When you're referring to the person who created the thread, for example.
"OP forgot to post a link, maybe they were in a hurry."

Funny, how in those cases, nobody is like all "uhm, OP is clearly a singular individual, why are you using a plural term?!?!" - but when someone specifically asks to have people use "they/them" as their pronouns, all those half-informed grammar scholars show up.

I've never heard or read this response the your first sentence.
I would ask:

"No. where is this person." to use a plural they would never. Come into my mind.
Don't get me wrong. I want to address every person how they want to. Its a learning process.

The easiest method is to address people who specifically ask to be addressed in a certain way - if isn't straight up trolling ("OMG LEL ATTACK HELICOPTER LOLROFLEDGE") - in that very way. And not to engage in a pointless "well actually..." discussion about grammar when someone opens up about their gender.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,462
A mountain in the US
I've never heard or read this response the your first sentence.
I would ask:

"No. where is this person." to use a plural they would never. Come into my mind.
Don't get me wrong. I want to address every person how they want to. Its a learning process.
It's said often and written/typed rarely. I see lots of Americans even say they've never heard it, but they're not thinking straight.
 

Rotkehle

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
3,320
Hamm, Germany
People in all kinds of places talk about singular people via "they are", often because one doesn't want to make assumptions about another posters gender. - as a replacement for "he or she + singular"
When you're referring to the person who created the thread, for example.
"OP forgot to post a link, maybe they were in a hurry."

Funny, how in those cases, nobody is like all "uhm, OP is clearly a singular individual, why are you using a plural term?!?!" - but when someone specifically asks to have people use "they/them" as their pronouns, all those half-informed grammar scholars show up.
I don't think this is funny and I've never read they in combination with a singular person here. The funny thing is that I would have ask why this person is adressed with they. I find it complicated to use this form of addressing but I will do my best but please stop getting aggressive just because people that did not get in contact with this topic didn't know how to address a non binary person.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,251
It's said often and written/typed rarely. I see lots of Americans even say they've never heard it, but they're not thinking straight.

Oh, yes, they are ...
(I'll show myself out)

I don't think this is funny and I've never read they in combination with a singular person here. The funny thing is that I would have ask why this person is adressed with they. I find it complicated to use this form of addressing but I will do my best but please stop getting aggressive just because people that did not get in contact with this topic didn't know how to address a non binary person.

Oh, i didn't mean to sound aggressive, confrontational or anything, apologies if that's how it came across.
I'm quite sure that - now that you're aware of this kind of usage of "they / them" you'll actually notice how common it actually is - even around places you frequent; like this very forum.

here's an example where it happened and you might just not have noticed
kotaku.com

Twitter User Who Leaked Most E3 Announcements Says Nintendo's Lawyer Called Them

After promising early and unreleased information about Nintendo’s E3 reveals on Twitter this weekend, an account that’s been leaking the rest of this week’s announcements says they received a call and email from Nintendo asking them to stop.
(singular leaker, gender unknown -> "them")

It often happens when there's anonymous / protected sources, where the source's gender is either unknown or the author decides to protect even that aspect of the source's identity.
 
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1upsuper

Member
Jan 30, 2018
5,485
Nobody seems concerned with the fact that English words look wildly different than their pronunciation due to the great vowel shift and printing press clusterfuck, but some people are real anxious about one instance of the verb "to be" agreeing in number with "they" for non-binary people.

How about that.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,087
Wait isn't Sam Smith a very big thing?? I don't know what they do but I recognize the name.
 

Hypron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,059
NZ
Nobody seems concerned with the fact that English words look wildly different than their pronunciation due to the great vowel shift and printing press clusterfuck, but they're real anxious about one instance of the verb "to be" agreeing in number with "they" for non-binary people.

How about that.

For real. And it's a nonsense argument anyway because when you use 'you' to talk to a single person you also use 'are'. If you can handle you being singular and plural at the same time you can also handle they being the same.
 

Rotkehle

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
3,320
Hamm, Germany
Oh, yes, they are ...
(I'll show myself out)



Oh, i didn't mean to sound aggressive, confrontational or anything, apologies if that's how it came across.
I'm quite sure that - now that you're aware of this kind of usage of "they / them" you'll actually notice how common it actually is - even around places you frequent; like this very forum.

Awareness is often the key to subtle things. I will keep my eyes open.
 

rhindle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
368
Curious if any non-English speakers can comment on how this works in their native language.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,251
Curious if any non-English speakers can comment on how this works in their native language.

Careful. The "Sie sind" is the formal 2nd(!) person plural - i.e. the formal "You"

So if you were talking about Sam Smith in the third person (not talking to him, 2nd person) - that'd be no solution and would sound even more weird.
"Hey, Hast du das von Sam Smith gelesen?"
- "Ja, Sie wollen jetzt als 'Sie' angesprochen werden"
"Wieso siezt du mich, Alter?!"

So, that's a different issue altogether. Using the same construct for formal "you" (2nd person) and nonbinary "he/she" (3rd person) would be even more fucked up than what english speakers are having to '"""" deal with """", because it'd suddenly become ambiguous whether you're talking to or about a person. That's a much harsher break than some singular/plural ambiguity.
(add the fact that the 3rd person plural pronoun "Sie" is the same as singular female ...)

I have no idea how this is being handled in German, actually.......
 
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Mr Bob-san

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22
Curious if any non-English speakers can comment on how this works in their native language.

In Swedish we have han (him), hon (her) and since the last few years hen (non gender specific). Hen is also used by journalists when writing/talking about a person that wishes their gender to remain anonymous, perhaps a whistleblower.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,251
In Swedish we have han (him), hon (her) and since the last few years hen (non gender specific). Hen is also used by journalists when writing/talking about a person that wishes their gender to remain anonymous, perhaps a whistleblower.
Yeah, sadly, German doesn't have that - we only have "es" - (="it"), which is of course incredibly dehumanizing.

I just did some research and some are trying to make singular "sier" happen (which is a contraction of "sie" (she) and "er" (he) ). Which is actually pretty smart. But of course carries the implication of being "both"; i.e. also kinda reinforces the basic dichotomy, and excludes people who define as agender, so "neither".
 

derder

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
371
Can't fathom that in 2019 some people on this forum don't know what sex and gender are
I don't want to detail this thread, but I really think that this is not a good attitude and a topic for broader discussion.

I'm fortunate enough to have had exposure and the curiousity to understand the distinction between the two. I regularly find myself explaining the term "cis-gender" to friends, for example. I'd like to think that it's because of a progressive lifestyle, but I think it's because I frequent this forum.

I should write up a dedicated post on this subject, but I feel that the gap between progressive gender definition and public understanding is widening too fast. Uninformed =/= unexposed =/= ignorant =/= rejection.

This announcement's marketing is _exactly_ what we need to narrow the gap. I wish that there were higher profile non-binary celebrities who could increase the exposure as they have done.
 
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SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
Honestly, I knew it the first time I heard "Writings on the Wall" from SPECTRE

It just sounds non-binary as does Sam's singing
 
I have no idea how this is being handled in German, actually.......
This is making my brain hurt ever since as well.
While I have no problem with they/them in English, I have no fucking idea how to translate it into German.

German irritates me when talking about animals as well. Using 'it' when refering to an unknown animal would be the right thing to do, but my first impulse is always e.g to use 'he' for a dog and 'she' for a cat. Just because our articles der/die/das already come with some sort of gender.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,902
This is making my brain hurt ever since as well.
While I have no problem with they/them in English, I have no fucking idea how to translate it into German.

German irritates me when talking about animals as well. Using 'it' when refering to an unknown animal would be the right thing to do, but my first impulse is always e.g to use 'he' for a dog and 'she' for a cat. Just because our articles der/die/das already come with some sort of gender.
It's an important conversation to sustain though, and is happening a lot when it comes to the localisation space. Non-binary characters will be written into films, books and games so it presents a unique challenge.

I'd be interested in speaking to the non-binary people in the countries where the language doesn't facilitate an immediate gender neutral option to see how they've accommodated for it. People (not yourself) are often far too quick to shut it down as impossible before seeing what people are doing and what might be possible to move toward.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
Wow, that will be weird for people to say i guess. Let's hope for Sam and other non-binary people that other people will be willing to try this.
The world doesn't seem very openmided and using them or they for one person is weird even for a progressive person. It's simply not something we are used to.

How does they (Sam) refer to themselves? See, already confusing, haha. (and i mean haha, in the kindest way. It's just something we will have to get used to).

Anyway, really exciting to see how people are brave enough to come forward with this. Everybody should be able to come to their own core and be happy with themselves. I hope many famous people will lead the way as their impact will punch the biggest holes in ancient traditions.

Edit: oh wow, in other languages this will require some creativity.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,902
How does they (Sam) refer to themselves? See, already confusing, haha. (and i mean haha, in the kindest way. It's just something we will have to get used to).
The same as everyone else - with I.

I don't know your pronouns so if I was referring to you on here without your username I might say "It's nice to see they're interested in trying to understand". It's just extending that use to someone you know formally.
 
It's an important conversation to sustain though, and is happening a lot when it comes to the localisation space. Non-binary characters will be written into films, books and games so it presents a unique challenge.

I'd be interested in speaking to the non-binary people in the countries where the language doesn't facilitate an immediate gender neutral option to see how they've accommodated for it. People (not yourself) are often far too quick to shut it down as impossible before seeing what people are doing and what might be possible to move toward.
The thing is, we and politics are already doing it, but we haven't reached non-binary by now. We are still hang up on inclusion of females, because of our completely gendered language.
We have a female form for nearly everything in German with adding '-in' to it. E.g: Actor = Schauspieler / Actress = Schauspielerin.
Now if you get a letter saying "Dear customer", while there is no femal version in English, for us it would be only adressed to male customers, if you see it strict. It is often talked about regarding feminism, how you are excluded then, in a way, because the male one is usually the default.
Of course that attracts people who totally overdo it, and there is a (bad) joke that exists for years to mock feminism, where you add '-in' to a redundant object, to turn it into a female version.
"Gib mir mal die Salzsteuerin." (Hand me the salt shaker.)

While we did made some kind of progress with the third gender option for your pass and job offers, it is only for intersex people. And I myself haven't come across bigger talks about how to expand that. (While it can be possible I just missed that, though.)
 

Deleted member 44129

User requested account closure
Banned
May 29, 2018
7,690
User Banned (3 days): Ignoring staff post
I get why someone would not want to be referred to as "he" or "she" if they consider themselves non binary, but surely "they" is plural.

Edit: Rushed in to comment then realised I had the most unoriginal thought ever, but I stand by it.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,251
This is making my brain hurt ever since as well.
While I have no problem with they/them in English, I have no fucking idea how to translate it into German.

German irritates me when talking about animals as well. Using 'it' when refering to an unknown animal would be the right thing to do, but my first impulse is always e.g to use 'he' for a dog and 'she' for a cat. Just because our articles der/die/das already come with some sort of gender.

No, you see, it's because every single dog (regardless of biological sex) is SUCH A GOOD GOOD BOY.

I get why someone would not want to be referred to as "he" or "she" if they consider themselves non binary, but surely "they" is plural.

Edit: Rushed in to comment then realised I had the most unoriginal thought ever, but I stand by it.

You're misusing the word "surely" - that word should certainly be only used if you're "sure" about something - i.e. if you did your research and your conclusion stands the test of a single google search ;)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they

"Much has been written on they, and we aren't going to attempt to cover it here. We will note that they has been in consistent use as a singular pronoun since the late 1300s; that the development of singular they mirrors the development of the singular you from the plural you, yet we don't complain that singular you is ungrammatical; and that regardless of what detractors say, nearly everyone uses the singular they in casual conversation and often in formal writing."
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
The same as everyone else - with I.

I don't know your pronouns so if I was referring to you on here without your username I might say "It's nice to see they're interested in trying to understand". It's just extending that use to someone you know formally.
Oh yeah of course.... Just woke up. I was imagining some Gollum like conversation that would sound weird. But 'i" will remain "i". I've had my coffee now though.
But it will be confusing for people. Let's hope they are willing though. That would be a start. Knowing people. It will take decades at least. Even in the most progressive countries.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,003
I get why someone would not want to be referred to as "he" or "she" if they consider themselves non binary, but surely "they" is plural.

Edit: Rushed in to comment then realised I had the most unoriginal thought ever, but I stand by it.
you can use they in any situation that you would use he or she and it would still be correct.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,902
The thing is, we and politics are already doing it, but we haven't reached non-binary by now. We are still hang up on inclusion of females, because of our completely gendered language.
We have a female form for nearly everything in German with adding '-in' to it. E.g: Actor = Schauspieler / Actress = Schauspielerin.
Now if you get a letter saying "Dear customer", while there is no femal version in English, for us it would be only adressed to male customers, if you see it strict. It is often talked about regarding feminism, how you are excluded then, in a way, because the male one is usually the default.
Of course that attracts people who totally overdo it, and there is a (bad) joke that exists for years to mock feminism, where you add '-in' to a redundant object, to turn it into a female version.
"Gib mir mal die Salzsteuerin." (Hand me the salt shaker.)

While we did made some kind of progress with the third gender option for your pass and job offers, it is only for intersex people. And I myself haven't come across bigger talks about how to expand that. (While it cann be possible I just missed that, though.)
That's natural though. It's not a simple immediate solution in a number of languages so it will take time. Consider that English has a perfectly good option (they) that's largely used to the same effect and we still have people fighting against it. The fight for anything in languages where that isn't the case will be immense I imagine. Appreciate you going into the language and situation a bit more and it's nice to hear of progress even if it's not at the non-binary stage yet.

I get why someone would not want to be referred to as "he" or "she" if they consider themselves non binary, but surely "they" is plural.

Edit: Rushed in to comment then realised I had the most unoriginal thought ever, but I stand by it.
Stand by it all you like, they being used in the singular is commonplace.

Oh yeah of course.... Just woke up. I was imagining some Gollum like conversation that would sound weird. But 'i" will remain "i". I've had my coffee now though.
But it will be confusing for people. Let's hope they are willing though. That would be a start. Knowing people. It will take decades at least. Even in the most progressive countries.
Lmao, and yeh, would be a start.
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,251
Oh yeah of course.... Just woke up. I was imagining some Gollum like conversation that would sound weird. But 'i" will remain "i". I've had my coffee now though.
But it will be confusing for people. Let's hope they are willing though. That would be a start. Knowing people. It will take decades at least. Even in the most progressive countries.

People are confused by a lot of things, and that's fine. Nobody needs to wholly understand certain concepts.
Hell, i'm confused by a lot of things.
It's all about whether or not we feel the need to turn our confusion into almost aggressive rejection.
 

Letters

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,442
Portugal
I feel like we need a different term for non-binary. They then is a plural, while she or he is singular. I respect them wishes and will call them they or them all the same.
Yeah I'm all for non-binary people but using "they/them" to refer to a single person is always a huge awkward mindfuck for me and I really wish it wasn't.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,535
Yeah I'm all for non-binary people but using "they/them" to refer to a single person is always a huge awkward mindfuck for me and I really wish it wasn't.

"I'm all for non-binary people but this tiny little thing really is a no-go for me and I wish they would stop"

This really isn't hard. This isn't about you. If it's hard for you, do it 10 times and voila. If you are a functioning human being on any level you will soon notice that you get used to it. If having to refer to some people with "they" instead of "he" is such a mindfuck to you that it actually influences your daily life to the negative, then I have really bad news about the whole "functioning human being" part.

This is, of course, ignoring that "they/them" is already regularly used to refer to single persons. This isn't people asking you to re-invent grammar, this is people asking you to respect some of the basics you apparently decided to ignore until now.

The singular they had emerged by the 14th century about a century after plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since then, and has gained currency in official contexts
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Honestly good job having patience with the people that actually want to learn.Some of these posts though … makes me glad he didn't choose to come out at a Chick-fil-A
 

Letters

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,442
Portugal
"I'm all for non-binary people but this tiny little thing really is a no-go for me and I wish they would stop"

This really isn't hard. This isn't about you. If it's hard for you, do it 10 times and voila. If you are a functioning human being on any level you will soon notice that you get used to it. If having to refer to some people with "they" instead of "he" is such a mindfuck to you that it actually influences your daily life to the negative, then I have really bad news about the whole "functioning human being" part.

This is, of course, ignoring that "they/them" is already regularly used to refer to single persons. This isn't people asking you to re-invent grammar, this is people asking you to respect the basics of it.
Makes sense. Thanks!
 

TanookiTom

Member
Oct 29, 2017
684
Berlin
It's kind of problematic in my simultaneously translating brain. But sure. They.

They is translated to "Sie (plural)" exactly like She which is also "Sie (singular)". I currently don't know what is the currently right terminology none binary in my language.

wow you're absolutely right! I've been reading so much on the topic lately (just recently I watched a very nice interview with Jill Soloway who also defines as non-binary and would prefer to be referred to as "they/them") - but only in English as you've made me realize.

Seems like theres no consensus on any solution in German, but "sie" is really not a good one :-/

Anyhow, great for Sam Smith. I hope they feel happy and loved and accepted as they are and as they should :)
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
With how screwed up search algorithms are is that really a safe bet?
These resources all seem fine to me:

ISlsCeX.png


I use Bing lol
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
At least it's pretty simple in Chinese. One word for all third-person referents, no inflections.

I wonder how one would navigate Japanese though, seeing its heavily gendered forms of speech.
 

HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
Laurel, MD
The polite thing to do is to take some time to research a subject if you don't understand. Not assume you're owed an explaination.
I see a lot of back and forth about this. I think we can agree it is rude to demand an explanation from someone about their identity.

However, if someone is on a forum and they ask a question about gender or sexuality, responding to them to go figure it out on their own is kinda rude. If you don't wanna help them understand, why bother responding? I see such questions as an opportunity for the person asking to receive new information, along with the other viewers who might share some potential to learn more.