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Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
Yeah, the Hades' Sanctuary chapter opening still fucks me up because of knowing WHY it's so freaking sad. Friends and I, a couple of years ago, talked about how much in general growing up percieved Shun as gay when in reality dude was just the kindest of friends. I'm glad that in my teenage years I spent my time with friends that weren't afraid of huging or showing love for each other, and now that I think about it, nearly all of our group was very into Saint Seiya as a whole.

Oh, btw I didn't expect reading people dunking on La Cancion de Los Heroes, it's corny but it has it's charm.


Aslo don't sleep on The Lost Canvas. It's really good. I hope one day we get the rest animated
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,596
Yeah, I'm curious if the movies are worth the upgrade.

Discotek are masters are doing the best upgrades with the best quality audio/visual that they can get their hands on, as well as doing manual upscaling when nothing else exists. I've seen the first 2 movies on Retro Crush, and they appear to be blu ray quality to me (or at least, really nicely upscaled). Their work never ceases to impress me, so from that I'm going to say that they probably would be worth an upgrade.

More details on their release on this Tweet-chain here:

 

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,803
Because Kurumada was really really bad in English and thought brainwinner meant something else entirely.

Don't you go disrespecting Hyoga's master like that!
But yeah, they started the show rather early in the manga's life so they had to stall for time.
Again, still better than Shaka's disciples.
It's such a weird whiplash of the tone being close to GI Joe while still retaining all the blood and gore you'd find in the rest of Saint Seiya.

I kind of miss these kinds of filler in recent anime.
For My Hero, they'd rather stay super close to the manga than do a filler arc on the daily life at UA.
Of course I'm asking for Boruto level of filler because that's dilluting the experience waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much but still...
then again I don't think I would have liked a filler arc between hades sanctuary and hades inferno.
God knows the wait was infuriating enough without having to add that to the mix.

Hyoga's master is this guy:

01d7a720b5183f75bfea2a4691c124bc.jpg


The Crystal Saint looks like Bill Nye the Science guy.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Hyoga's master is this guy:

01d7a720b5183f75bfea2a4691c124bc.jpg


The Crystal Saint looks like Bill Nye the Science guy.
And Bill Nye is a better teacher than mister 'I sank your mommie's ship' whose cloth was designed by a kid :p

That kind of shit happens all the time back then especially with author who don't plan for shit.
Heck Scorpio was supposed to be Hyoga's teacher to begin with.
Heck when Shingo Araki's team was doing sanctuary, they didn't know who killed Shun's teacher so they had Milo do it....but then Kurumada tied that to Aphrodite so they pulled a small quick retcon to tie it together.

They also didn't have Ikki meet with Shaka because that part wasn't done at the time (it's a more recent chapter added after Shaka's design was finalised, in volume form they added that part in the continuity because it made sense) aside from Shaka's disciple it's doesn't really impact the story all that much.

Saint Seiya isn't really the kind of franchise where canon is that important, it's rule of cool to an extent.
There's a whole goddamn volume where it shows Kurumada didn't plan things and really made shit up as he went along....yep volume 25.
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
Because Kurumada was really really bad in English and thought brainwinner meant something else entirely.

Don't you go disrespecting Hyoga's master like that!
But yeah, they started the show rather early in the manga's life so they had to stall for time.
Again, still better than Shaka's disciples.
It's such a weird whiplash of the tone being close to GI Joe while still retaining all the blood and gore you'd find in the rest of Saint Seiya.

I kind of miss these kinds of filler in recent anime.
For My Hero, they'd rather stay super close to the manga than do a filler arc on the daily life at UA.
Of course I'm asking for Boruto level of filler because that's dilluting the experience waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much but still...
then again I don't think I would have liked a filler arc between hades sanctuary and hades inferno.
God knows the wait was infuriating enough without having to add that to the mix.
You mean Camus? The Crystal Saint is a loser
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I feel like a lot of shonen adapt things like this. Pretty boy characters that eskew traditional masculinity roles are pretty common and I can't think of a shonen where characters are crying over their friends or loved ones. I'm sure a the time Saint Seiya was released these were unique traits, but nowadays they seem pretty common
 
Oct 30, 2017
554
I was a proud parent when I heard my child say Kurama in YuYuHakusho was a ripoff of Shun.

That feeling was instantly lost when they refused to read the manga since they thought the art was horrific.

Child has no taste sometimes...
 

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,803
And Bill Nye is a better teacher than mister 'I sank your mommie's ship' whose cloth was designed by a kid :p

That kind of shit happens all the time back then especially with author who don't plan for shit.
Heck Scorpio was supposed to be Hyoga's teacher to begin with.
Heck when Shingo Araki's team was doing sanctuary, they didn't know who killed Shun's teacher so they had Milo do it....but then Kurumada tied that to Aphrodite so they pulled a small quick retcon to tie it together.

They also didn't have Ikki meet with Shaka because that part wasn't done at the time (it's a more recent chapter added after Shaka's design was finalised, in volume form they added that part in the continuity because it made sense) aside from Shaka's disciple it's doesn't really impact the story all that much.

Saint Seiya isn't really the kind of franchise where canon is that important, it's rule of cool to an extent.
There's a whole goddamn volume where it shows Kurumada didn't plan things and really made shit up as he went along....yep volume 25.

Are you honestly going to tell me Camus looks bad:

8c441bfb343c219b69506aa36320a730.jpg


Aquarius-Camus-saint-seiya-knights-of-the-zodiac-40110578-640-800.jpg


Aquarius.Camus.full.37303.jpg


10007401.png
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
Crystal Saint is the best design of that part of the filler arc it's in.
Like seriously look at the others!
400


This dude is pointless and his animation is even reusing some of Docrates.


No, I'm just telling you the cloth design is from a (very talented) fan.
Crystal Saint ruins Hyoga and Camus's dynamic
Also, what is he even supposed to be? Silver Saint?
 

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,803
Crystal Saint is the best design of that part of the filler arc it's in.
Like seriously look at the others!
400


This dude is pointless and his animation is even reusing some of Docrates.


No, I'm just telling you the cloth design is from a (very talented) fan.

Well glad, we're on the same page, now another question.

How is Ice Bill Nye a better master than Camus?
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Crystal Saint ruins Hyoga and Camus's dynamic
Also, what is he even supposed to be? Silver Saint?
I mean if you have hazy memory of the whole thing it makes a nice bow with Cygnus as bronze, Crystal as silver, Aquarius as gold for the ice saints.
But nope, Crystal isn't even silver, they hadn't been introduced when Crystal died.
He's really a filler Saint.
Because of that though, Isaac in the Anime is also Silver's disciple rather than just Camus's.
At least they made it coherent so that people back then didn't wonder if they were lied to for a long time.

Well glad, we're on the same page, now another question.

How is Ice Bill Nye a better master than Camus?
Because Camus is a pretty bad one, Bill Nye is a pretty good teacher :p
Seriously though there's barely anything going on between Camus and Hyoga,
Camus never comes up beyond his time in Sanctuary.
Kurumada actually wanted Milo to be Hyoga's master before deciding on Camus and it kinds of shows since before they fight they have no interaction.

At least Silver has some time where he's not a giant dickhead to Cygnus before they fight.
Heck Hyoga is really not that interesting as a character, his whole arc is done by the end of Poseidon.
Messing with him for the Netflix show (by gender bending him for example) would have made Hyoga more interesting.
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
I mean if you have hazy memory of the whole thing it makes a nice bow with Cygnus as bronze, Crystal as silver, Aquarius as gold for the ice saints.
But nope, Crystal isn't even silver, they hadn't been introduced when Crystal died.
He's really a filler Saint.
Because of that though, Isaac in the Anime is also Silver's disciple rather than just Camus's.
At least they made it coherent so that people back then didn't wonder if they were lied to for a long time.


Because Camus is a pretty bad one, Bill Nye is a pretty good teacher :p
Seriously though there's barely anything going on between Camus and Hyoga,
Camus never comes up beyond his time in Sanctuary.
Kurumada actually wanted Milo to be Hyoga's master before deciding on Camus and it kinds of shows since before they fight they have no interaction.

At least Silver has some time where he's not a giant dickhead to Cygnus before they fight.
Heck Hyoga is really not that interesting as a character, his whole arc is done by the end of Poseidon.
Messing with him for the Netflix show (by gender bending him for example) would have made Hyoga more interesting.
Camus ordered him to kill the others in the manga and sank his mom's ship before he left for sanctuary
How is Crystal a good teacher?
 

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,803
Midgard's God Robe is 100% the best Cloth across all Saint Seiya media, It's absolutely baller:
300

latest

What about this color:

576



I mean if you have hazy memory of the whole thing it makes a nice bow with Cygnus as bronze, Crystal as silver, Aquarius as gold for the ice saints.
But nope, Crystal isn't even silver, they hadn't been introduced when Crystal died.
He's really a filler Saint.
Because of that though, Isaac in the Anime is also Silver's disciple rather than just Camus's.
At least they made it coherent so that people back then didn't wonder if they were lied to for a long time.


Because Camus is a pretty bad one, Bill Nye is a pretty good teacher :p
Seriously though there's barely anything going on between Camus and Hyoga,
Camus never comes up beyond his time in Sanctuary.
Kurumada actually wanted Milo to be Hyoga's master before deciding on Camus and it kinds of shows since before they fight they have no interaction.

At least Silver has some time where he's not a giant dickhead to Cygnus before they fight.
Heck Hyoga is really not that interesting as a character, his whole arc is done by the end of Poseidon.
Messing with him for the Netflix show (by gender bending him for example) would have made Hyoga more interesting.

Crystal was a scrub who Hyoga beat after 1 fight. He also didn't teach Hyoga how to keep his cool like Camus or get to absolute Zero which Camus DIED to do. Camus was strict but a good teacher. And honestly that ship needed to sunk. No man should spend ANY amount of time underwater to looking at his mom's preserved corpses. Hyoga has a HUGE Oedipus complex which needed curing.

Gender-bending him wouldn't do it as he'd be the same but a girl. They should've played up his role as the Sanctuary's assassin as he was sent to kill the other Bronze Saints at first.
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
Correct me if i'm wrong but i think the reason Crystal was created was because at the time in the manga, Camus was not yet revealed as a Gold Saint.
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
3,440
Correct me if i'm wrong but i think the reason Crystal was created was because at the time in the manga, Camus was not yet revealed as a Gold Saint.

That's the reason for 95% of the plot issues and non-canon characters filling roles later filled by characters in the manga. Toei started the anime too soon after the manga started. Like, way sooner than even Dragon Ball did.

It's amazing how many of their changes create later plot issues. Even in Next Dimension. One of the best moments in that manga would have had to have had some changes to work with how Toei did things in the Sanctuary Arc.

Also, yeah turning Hyoga vs Camus from Student vs Master to Student's Student vs Master's Master really brought the emotions of that fight low.

And let's not forget how Toei tried to have Capricorn Shura be the ultimate good justice guy...when it turns out he was just as much a part of the traitor's club as Cancer Deathmask and Pisces Aphrodite (though not as bad as Deathmask's crazy ass).

I would love to get a proper remake of the original series at some point, with good animation, keep the awesome music, and bring back as much of the old cast as possible. Toei may have had some rough points in the writing, especially for early filler (Steel Saints...), but the music and voice acting was perfection.

The concept of 12 Gold Saints itself didn't even exist

You sure about that? Because the Sagittarius Gold Cloth was introduced in volume 1, and Saori mentions the Gold Cloths being associated with the 12 signs of the Zodiac.

Yeah, we didn't see anyone armored at that point, but I think the concepts were there.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
What about this color:

576





Crystal was a scrub who Hyoga beat after 1 fight. He also didn't teach Hyoga how to keep his cool like Camus or get to absolute Zero which Camus DIED to do. Camus was strict but a good teacher. And honestly that ship needed to sunk. No man should spend ANY amount of time underwater to looking at his mom's preserved corpses. Hyoga has a HUGE Oedipus complex which needed curing.
This. Camus is a great teacher and put Hyoga on the right track.

But it's also enjoyable how in the anime Hyoga beats his master's master, and received a worthy lesson in return too.

And that cloth color suits sick. It should have been the color of the marines.
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
That's the reason for 95% of the plot issues and non-canon characters filling roles later filled by characters in the manga. Toei started the anime too soon after the manga started. Like, way sooner than even Dragon Ball did.

It's amazing how many of their changes create later plot issues. Even in Next Dimension. One of the best moments in that manga would have had to have had some changes to work with how Toei did things in the Sanctuary Arc.

Also, yeah turning Hyoga vs Camus from Student vs Master to Student's Student vs Master's Master really brought the emotions of that fight low.

And let's not forget how Toei tried to have Capricorn Shura be the ultimate good justice guy...when it turns out he was just as much a part of the traitor's club as Cancer Deathmask and Pisces Aphrodite (though not as bad as Deathmask's crazy ass).

I would love to get a proper remake of the original series at some point, with good animation, keep the awesome music, and bring back as much of the old cast as possible. Toei may have had some rough points in the writing, especially for early filler (Steel Saints...), but the music and voice acting was perfection.



You sure about that? Because the Sagittarius Gold Cloth was introduced in volume 1, and Saori mentions the Gold Cloths being associated with the 12 signs of the Zodiac.

Yeah, we didn't see anyone armored at that point, but I think the concepts were there.
It changed a lot. Like the pope tried to kill athena as a baby but toei said the evil pope took over when his brother died recently
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Crystal was a scrub who Hyoga beat after 1 fight. He also didn't teach Hyoga how to keep his cool like Camus or get to absolute Zero which Camus DIED to do. Camus was strict but a good teacher. And honestly that ship needed to sunk. No man should spend ANY amount of time underwater to looking at his mom's preserved corpses. Hyoga has a HUGE Oedipus complex which needed curing.
i mean from what we see in the anime, Crystal taught him how to be a saint. Camus taught him Aurora Execution.
Even if you take into account the whole spiel the correct way to act as a saint (that the rest of the order basically coudln't give less of a shit about) it's not even really used by Hyoga at all.
heck Hyoga took the lesson to heart so well that in Poseidon he got taken advantage of twice because of that.
At this point, it's not a question of which character is a better teacher, it's really how bad that student was.

Gender-bending him wouldn't do it as he'd be the same but a girl. They should've played up his role as the Sanctuary's assassin as he was sent to kill the other Bronze Saints at first.
Which still would be a better idea than doing it to Shun.
From memory, he comes to kill them all, banter a little and decide to help them because why the hell not.
Considering the plan they had in mind, Hyoga as an assassin should have been cut entirely.
Like the whole 1st part is an elaborate way of dealing with the Kido/Graad organization, there's no real need for any character beyond Seiya and Ikki.

That's the reason for 95% of the plot issues and non-canon characters filling roles later filled by characters in the manga. Toei started the anime too soon after the manga started. Like, way sooner than even Dragon Ball did.

It's amazing how many of their changes create later plot issues. Even in Next Dimension. One of the best moments in that manga would have had to have had some changes to work with how Toei did things in the Sanctuary Arc.

Also, yeah turning Hyoga vs Camus from Student vs Master to Student's Student vs Master's Master really brought the emotions of that fight low.

And let's not forget how Toei tried to have Capricorn Shura be the ultimate good justice guy...when it turns out he was just as much a part of the traitor's club as Cancer Deathmask and Pisces Aphrodite (though not as bad as Deathmask's crazy ass).

I would love to get a proper remake of the original series at some point, with good animation, keep the awesome music, and bring back as much of the old cast as possible. Toei may have had some rough points in the writing, especially for early filler (Steel Saints...), but the music and voice acting was perfection.



You sure about that? Because the Sagittarius Gold Cloth was introduced in volume 1, and Saori mentions the Gold Cloths being associated with the 12 signs of the Zodiac.

Yeah, we didn't see anyone armored at that point, but I think the concepts were there.
The anime started october 86 when the manga started in january.
It was an overnight success or they wouldn't have done the animation so early in the manga.
I don't think the concept of 12 gold saints where there to begin with.
we would need the original scans to tell as the volume releases that is all we have now contains lots of changes done for volume release, it can go as far as adding a whole chapter (like Ikki meeting Shaka).

It changed a lot. Like the pope tried to kill athena as a baby but toei said the evil pope took over when his brother died recently

The pope chronology is all kind of screwy and made no sense back then (not even sure it does now).
Like the old pope was good and gave Seiya his cloth but then he dies and is replaced by his brother who is evil or something.
But then you have the Saga plot that ties onto this but not neatly.
Sometimes they took liberties with the adaptation and it came to bite them neatly in the ass.
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
i mean from what we see in the anime, Crystal taught him how to be a saint. Camus taught him Aurora Execution.
Even if you take into account the whole spiel the correct way to act as a saint (that the rest of the order basically coudln't give less of a shit about) it's not even really used by Hyoga at all.
heck Hyoga took the lesson to heart so well that in Poseidon he got taken advantage of twice because of that.
At this point, it's not a question of which character is a better teacher, it's really how bad that student was.


Which still would be a better idea than doing it to Shun.
From memory, he comes to kill them all, banter a little and decide to help them because why the hell not.
Considering the plan they had in mind, Hyoga as an assassin should have been cut entirely.
Like the whole 1st part is an elaborate way of dealing with the Kido/Graad organization, there's no real need for any character beyond Seiya and Ikki.


The anime started october 86 when the manga started in january.
It was an overnight success or they wouldn't have done the animation so early in the manga.
I don't think the concept of 12 gold saints where there to begin with.
we would need the original scans to tell as the volume releases that is all we have now contains lots of changes done for volume release, it can go as far as adding a whole chapter (like Ikki meeting Shaka).



The pope chronology is all kind of screwy and made no sense back then (not even sure it does now).
Like the old pope was good and gave Seiya his cloth but then he dies and is replaced by his brother who is evil or something.
But then you have the Saga plot that ties onto this but not neatly.
Sometimes they took liberties with the adaptation and it came to bite them neatly in the ass.

But in the manga, Camus teaches him everything Crystal does and better as mentioned above.
Crystal is a scrub
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,596
That's the reason for 95% of the plot issues and non-canon characters filling roles later filled by characters in the manga. Toei started the anime too soon after the manga started. Like, way sooner than even Dragon Ball did.

Just wanted to point and say that I'm SO glad that anime has moved away from doing this sort of thing. Making up stuff as you go along and tons of filler just kills a show when it's just there to fluff it up and keep its time slot. Seiya went a step further to make up a bunch of main story stuff, before even knowing what was really going on :/
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
The pope chronology is all kind of screwy and made no sense back then (not even sure it does now).
Like the old pope was good and gave Seiya his cloth but then he dies and is replaced by his brother who is evil or something.
The later Toei retcons make Saga's impersonation imo a bit more plausible. In the manga, people think Saga is Shion, which makes no sense, as Pope Shion suddenly turning homicidal would had surely raised a few eyebrows. In the anime, Shion is killed by Saga, who assumes the title of pope as Shion's brother, which is weird but not unheard of (incidentally this being a situation similar to the Gemini Cloth) and this gives him more leeway to rule the sanctuary under his terms.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
But in the manga, Camus teaches him everything Crystal does and better as mentioned above.
Crystal is a scrub
Not really better,
Hyoga still gets done by Caça and nearly killed by Isaak in both version of the character.
And what's worse is that it's exactly the kind of stuffs that Camus died for.
Hyoga learned nothing.
It's also a lost opportunity to not make a callback to Crystal in Hades to show how Hyoga actually learned something but heh what we got is so far beyond anything we could have hoped I won't be picky.

Just wanted to point and say that I'm SO glad that anime has moved away from doing this sort of thing. Making up stuff as you go along and tons of filler just kills a show when it's just there to fluff it up and keep its time slot. Seiya went a step further to make up a bunch of main story stuff, before even knowing what was really going on :/
Don't tell me you didn't like Garlic Jr and the something dimension that lasted forever and totally shat on the canon of Dragon Ball?
Saint Seiya shows that you can do filler well and also filler abysmally (in the same goddamn show even).
The lesson is to plan in advance and make sure that it can't possibly mess up something down the line.
In MHA, they could invent a new villain organization that spring up in the internship of the less popular characters so that you end up fleshing up these cardboards a little.

The later Toei retcons make Saga's impersonation imo a bit more plausible. In the manga, people think Saga is Shion, which makes no sense, as Pope Shion suddenly turning homicidal would had surely raised a few eyebrows. In the anime, Shion is killed by Saga, who assumes the title of pope as Shion's brother, which is weird but not unheard of (incidentally this being a situation similar to the Gemini Cloth) and this gives him more leeway to rule the sanctuary under his terms.

IDK it feels a bit...weird in that Saga is supposed to be evil AND good so the rest of the order never see him turning maniac.
Like why the hell do the gold saints even follow the goddamn cartoon character of the Docrates era?
Dude is downright super evil.
It makes Shaka look like a chump when he says that he didn't see evil when he looked at the pope.
At least in the manga it makes sense since the pope was geniunely good when the others were looking.
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
The later Toei retcons make Saga's impersonation imo a bit more plausible. In the manga, people think Saga is Shion, which makes no sense, as Pope Shion suddenly turning homicidal would had surely raised a few eyebrows. In the anime, Shion is killed by Saga, who assumes the title of pope as Shion's brother, which is weird but not unheard of (incidentally this being a situation similar to the Gemini Cloth) and this gives him more leeway to rule the sanctuary under his terms.
I think the anime is way worse because in the anime Shion is still alive and gives the Pegasus Cloth to Seiya. So like, Shion didn't notice his brother was dead for 13 years? Really?
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
IDK it feels a bit...weird in that Saga is supposed to be evil AND good so the rest of the order never see him turning maniac.
Like why the hell do the gold saints even follow the goddamn cartoon character of the Docrates era?
Dude is downright super evil.
It makes Shaka look like a chump when he says that he didn't see evil when he looked at the pope.
At least in the manga it makes sense since the pope was geniunely good when the others were looking.
I always took Pope Saga to be basically a fascist. Under him saints adopted an extreme ideology of power and strength with disdain for the weak and the unworthy, but this was in name of Athena and the role of the saints as the last battle force against divine evil. Remember he did create a fake Athena illusion for people to see him talking to, and she's also the goddess of war and battle. He was extreme, but he was also doing what was theoretically expected from him. Saori Kiddo was an apostate trying to overthrow the real Athena under the protection of 4 bronze saints, the lowest low of a class of demigods.

Just like a country can go from a fascist to kind leader in a short breath, the contrary happened to the sanctuary. That's how I took it the last time I did a rewatch.

I think the anime is way worse because in the anime Shion is still alive and gives the Pegasus Cloth to Seiya. So like, Shion didn't notice his brother was dead for 13 years? Really?
Shion was like 463717191 years old at that point. Unlike Dokko who was saving his energy, his mind wasn't the sharpest and he was probably about to die. Maybe Saga killed the brother after Shion died.

The manga setup is good but it expects too much from Saga (three personalities? Four?). But maybe that's the idea to make him more unstable.
 
Last edited:

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
Shion was like 463717191 years old at that point. Unlike Dokko who was saving his energy, his mind wasn't the sharpest and he was probably about to die. Maybe Saga killed the brother after Shion died.
Saga was already impersonating Ares when he tried to kill Saori as a baby though.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
I think the anime is way worse because in the anime Shion is still alive and gives the Pegasus Cloth to Seiya. So like, Shion didn't notice his brother was dead for 13 years? Really?
Shion is also 250 years old thanks to Athena's gift.
So Shion's brother is like just bones at this point.
Of course, they had no idea that was the case when they decided on this point.
I always took Pope Saga to be basically a fascist. Under him saints adopted an extreme ideology of power and strength with disdain for the weak and the unworthy, but this was in name of Athena and the role of the saints as the last battle force against divine evil. Remember he did create a fake Athena illusion for people to see him talking too, and she's also the goddess of war and battle. He was extreme, but he was also doing what was theoretically expected him. Saori Kiddo was an apostate trying to overthrow the real Athena under the protection of 4 bronze saints, the lowest low of a class of demigods.

Just like a country can go from a fascist to kind leader in a short breath, the contrary happened to the sanctuary. That's how I took it the last time I did a rewatch.
They absolutely made the best out of this new pope.
Athena being kind and loving is absolutely not something you would guess if you have an interest in mythology.
Having the evil pope being a fascist strong man who wants to submit the world absolutely make sense.

The manga barely touch on that point while they were kind of forced to go deep and develop the character in the anime.
It does stand up more than most of the decision they took at the time.
In the anime, no one really know about the fact that there were more gold cloth than just Sagitarius but that doesn't really make sense when Aiora is the Lion gold saint that everyone knows.
And you had episodes of the guy being threatened by absolute mooks he could dispatch in seconds, it's so weird.
The Gold saint order is not even hidden or anything.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
Saga was already impersonating Ares when he tried to kill Saori as a baby though.

Yeah yeah. It's not scrutiny-proof, but it works for the Anime where the pope is exxxxtreme and Saori/the bronze saints signify a return to honor and normalcy to the Sanctuary.

I rewatched the series during the first months of pandemic during the Trump era and I just saw him right there and it just made sense. Dude tried to gaslight Aioria lmao
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Yeah yeah. It's not scrutiny-proof, but it works for the Anime where the pope is exxxxtreme and Saori/the bronze saints signify a return to honor and normalcy to the Sanctuary.

I rewatched the series during the first months of pandemic during the Trump era and I just saw him right there and it just made sense. Dude tried to gaslight Aioria lmao
The Genro maoken being a pope's skill is absolutely bonkers.
The head of clergy for good of the earth and all that has a skill that allows him to brainwash someone until that person see someone die?
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
The Genro maoken being a pope's skill is absolutely bonkers.
The head of clergy for good of the earth and all that has a skill that allows him to brainwash someone until that person see someone die?
When your potential war enemies include guys like Eris, Loki, Zeus, fucking Lucifer, and all that, you need every tool inside your watch
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
I just find it funny even though the Hades arc anime is completely based on the manga they still threw a nod for Pope Ares.
nuVQmOs.png
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
When your potential war enemies include guys like Eris, Loki, Zeus, fucking Lucifer, and all that, you need every tool inside your watch
I guess that's why they kept Deathmask for so long.
That's why the whole "saints are righteous and represent good" doesn't really makes sense.
You have absolute sociopaths in the ranks that are just there to see blood spilled.
I just find it funny even though the Hades arc anime is completely based on the manga they still threw a nod for Pope Ares.
nuVQmOs.png
that design is in manga though, no?
I guess it's a bit different between Ares and the Pope's garb.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
You sure about that? Because the Sagittarius Gold Cloth was introduced in volume 1, and Saori mentions the Gold Cloths being associated with the 12 signs of the Zodiac.

The anime started october 86 when the manga started in january.
It was an overnight success or they wouldn't have done the animation so early in the manga.
I don't think the concept of 12 gold saints where there to begin with.
we would need the original scans to tell as the volume releases that is all we have now contains lots of changes done for volume release, it can go as far as adding a whole chapter (like Ikki meeting Shaka).

If I'm not mistaken, the Sagittarius Cloth was originally the only gold one. Then later they retconned it and said Gold Cloths is a whole tier and there are 12 of them
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
I guess that's why they kept Deathmask for so long.
That's why the whole "saints are righteous and represent good" doesn't really makes sense.
You have absolute sociopaths in the ranks that are just there to see blood spilled.

that design is in manga though, no?
I guess it's a bit different between Ares and the Pope's garb.
The mask and red helmet is an anime-only thing. Pope Saga looks the exact same as Shion in the manga.
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
3,440
The later Toei retcons make Saga's impersonation imo a bit more plausible. In the manga, people think Saga is Shion, which makes no sense, as Pope Shion suddenly turning homicidal would had surely raised a few eyebrows. In the anime, Shion is killed by Saga, who assumes the title of pope as Shion's brother, which is weird but not unheard of (incidentally this being a situation similar to the Gemini Cloth) and this gives him more leeway to rule the sanctuary under his terms.

Honestly, it makes more sense in the manga, because Saga's actively putting an effort into pretending to be the previous Pope. Outside of his attempted Assassination of Athena, he actively is playing the role of good Pope. Capricorn Shura being one of the three Gold Saints who know the truth and are loyal to Saga helps when he's the one sent to take out Sagittarius Aiolos.

He has occasional weak moments, but with the right people loyal to him, he's been able to mostly keep it secret.

The whole point of the Galaxian Tournament was to lure out Saga and eventually reveal to the other Saints that Saori was Athena, to force a confrontation to purge the hidden evil from Sanctuary.

Those Silver and Gold Saints going after Saori and the gang mostly believe that the Bronzes broke the rules about personal fighting and are following a false Athena.

If they knew the truth...most of them would probably be loyal to her, which makes it extra tragic. They think they're the good guys fighting for Athena's justice.

In the anime, there's no Earthly way to believe that. The evil Pope sat under an evil Saint having people enslaved to make a pyramid.

I guess that's why they kept Deathmask for so long.
That's why the whole "saints are righteous and represent good" doesn't really makes sense.
You have absolute sociopaths in the ranks that are just there to see blood spilled.

that design is in manga though, no?
I guess it's a bit different between Ares and the Pope's garb.

Well, Saints are SUPPOSED TO BE righteous and represent good...but that doesn't always work out. Deathmask crossed the line so hard his Cloth flat out rejected him, and Saga's Cloth shed tears at how far he had fallen.

In the manga, it's just a helmet with the face mostly hidden by shadows, no demon-looking mask for the Pope. Because he's not supposed to be evil, lol.
 

Ekid

Member
Dec 21, 2017
1,638
If I'm not mistaken, the Sagittarius Cloth was originally the only gold one. Then later they retconned it and said Gold Cloths is a whole tier and there are 12 of them
IIRC Aiolia is in the first chapter when Seiya receive his armor but him being a gold saint is not mentioned until much later.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Well, Saints are SUPPOSED TO BE righteous and represent good...but that doesn't always work out. Deathmask crossed the line so hard his Cloth flat out rejected him, and Saga's Cloth shed tears at how far he had fallen.

In the manga, it's just a helmet with the face mostly hidden by shadows, no demon-looking mask for the Pope. Because he's not supposed to be evil, lol.
The ambiguity is interesting but might have been too subtle for an animated show in the timeslot it was airing I guess.
It's far more black and white in the anime and if you ask 10yo me with a layer of translation in between it worked better that way.
but yeah, enslaver saint building himself a pyramid is a bit dialing it to 11, like Poseidon look downright good in comparison to some of these scumbags.
 

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,803
Honestly, it makes more sense in the manga, because Saga's actively putting an effort into pretending to be the previous Pope. Outside of his attempted Assassination of Athena, he actively is playing the role of good Pope. Capricorn Shura being one of the three Gold Saints who know the truth and are loyal to Saga helps when he's the one sent to take out Sagittarius Aiolos.

He has occasional weak moments, but with the right people loyal to him, he's been able to mostly keep it secret.

The whole point of the Galaxian Tournament was to lure out Saga and eventually reveal to the other Saints that Saori was Athena, to force a confrontation to purge the hidden evil from Sanctuary.

Those Silver and Gold Saints going after Saori and the gang mostly believe that the Bronzes broke the rules about personal fighting and are following a false Athena.

If they knew the truth...most of them would probably be loyal to her, which makes it extra tragic. They think they're the good guys fighting for Athena's justice.

In the anime, there's no Earthly way to believe that. The evil Pope sat under an evil Saint having people enslaved to make a pyramid.



Well, Saints are SUPPOSED TO BE righteous and represent good...but that doesn't always work out. Deathmask crossed the line so hard his Cloth flat out rejected him, and Saga's Cloth shed tears at how far he had fallen.

In the manga, it's just a helmet with the face mostly hidden by shadows, no demon-looking mask for the Pope. Because he's not supposed to be evil, lol.

Exactly. Pope Ares was so obviously evil. He has a demon helmet, wears spikes and calls himself Ares. Shaka saying he was just was silly.

I wonder how Deathmask was able to keep his cloth as long as he did given how he killed CHILDREN.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
I love how Deathmask was among the other Gold Saints when they helped destroy the Wailing Wall in the Hades saga
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
Yeah Pope Ares twirls his moustache so hard, it falls off his face. How can anyone think he's a good guy?
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
The season 2 anime filler is absolute ass with goofy designed villains who act that way too. It felt too much like a saturday morning cartoon:

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latest


ok last guy isn't a villain but he still looks stupid
Not all the filler designs were terrible, I kind of liked the steel saints,

And the fillers are where we got odin seiya

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