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Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
Are we retconning WW2 now?
I don't understand the question. The Soviets managed to overwhelm the Germans in the end but it was at a tremendous cost of human lives. But even before that, the fact that Germany took over large swaths of Russia by storm was due to Stalin wiping out all the experienced generals a few years prior and the army having extremely unskilled leadership.

But even before WW2, there were so many examples...

Invading Russia was, is, and always will be a stupid idea.
Unless you're the Mongolian army.
 

Croc Man

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,546


(Stamp : 25:03. about sanctioning Kazakhstan for having ties with Russia)

ARE THEY NUUUUTS???!!!!!!!

Did everybody failed Geography there? I know nobody cares about Central Asian countries to learn History or Politics but look at FUCKING MAP and understand we cant FIGHT cuz nobody gonna HELP US and OUR WHOLE NORTH land right next Russia and China will not stay quiet either. So we have to stay quiet while being next to paranoid guy with NUKES.

All this end up doing is literally forcing us into USSR.

Truss can't read a map. She got the black and Baltic seas confused. It's no wonder Russia think they can get away with anything with people like her in positions of power.
Away from the cameras, Truss allegedly confused the Russian regions of Voronezh and Rostov with Ukrainian territory when Lavrov asked her whether she recognised Russia's sovereignty over them. She repeatedly told Lavrov that the UK would never recognise Moscow's claim, until the British ambassador was forced to step in to correct her, the Russian business daily Kommersant reported.
www.theguardian.com

Liz Truss warns Russia of sanctions during tense Ukraine talks

Foreign secretary issues warning as Sergei Lavrov describes UK’s contribution to talks as ‘just slogans’
 

Jisgsaw

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,369
Without nukes NATO forces would already knock on the doors of the Kremlin.
Not that they'd ever want to invade Russia, but if they did no, they wouldn't be in Moscow in a week, as they'd do the logical thing and start of with weeks / months of bombardment to suppress any russian AA capability, and prepare supply lines. You know, in order not to have the problems Russia has right now.

(Edit: if that wasn't clear, no one wants or should invade Russia, regardless of nukes)


Makes me think: can (or does) the EU actually blockade the Kalingrad enclave?

(edit: to formulate it better, as my post was misunderstood: given the european airspace and territorial waters, aren't some sanctions blocking Russia from EU space a big issue for Kalingrad?)
 
Last edited:

AYZON

Member
Oct 29, 2017
901
Germany
Do we know what the russians public opinion about this war is? Someone mentioned a poll that said it was less than 50% against it, is that true and if so did that change?
They are the ones that could really prompt change as all outsiders can do is sanction russia to hell and back until it breaks from the inside.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,081
Who would you see as having the desire and political capital to continue on with the invasion should Putin drop dead? The cracks have formed among some of the old guard around these actions even with Putin himself. Wondering who you think would rise to power and make the situation worse, keeping in mind where we're at and looking ahead to, over there just being internal instability that would detract from and flounder the invasion itself.

I'm not sure if the invasion would continue but heads of superpowers being assassinated doesn't often go well for the world historically. Internal instability in a country with a large nuclear stockpile is not something that the world should want.

I've thought about this a lot lately and my conclusion is that they are and they should rightfully be punished along with the ruling class through the sanctions.
Normal citizens are those committing massacres in Putin's army.
Normal citizens are those who uphold his regime by working in his corrupted law enforcement.
Normal citizens are the fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, cousins of those who are pillars of the Putin regime and have not convinced their family to seek a different path.
They had 20 years of possible passive action they could have done to slowly erode Putin's regime, but they did not. They chose to be cogs in the wheel the whole time and/or did not raise or educate they families to avoid supporting their tyrant. As such I can't be bothered to be sorry for them. Inaction is the same as support.

If this is the case, pretty much every large Western country should be punished as such. If that is your stance, then at least it's consistent.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
I've been sitting on the edge of my seat since this started fascinated at just about everything(obviously not in a good way but like when 9/11 or Katrina were on the news)
Been watching a lot of the videos out there and everything.

But jesus I came across one of the worst videos I've ever seen of something like that, im kinda feeling like I need to try to take a break after seeing that.

Not going to post it but just a description warning to know what it is to avoid it
its civilians driving down a highway, they see a Russian convoy up the road so they stop and open their doors and the Russians start shooting the car up killing the people, you hear their pets in the car crying and killed as well

Apparently it has the aftermath in the video as well but I was out within a few shots into the windshield
Everyone who feels sorry for russian soldiers should read it. Maybe it opens some people eyes.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Russia is already a border for the EU.
I was pointing out a future with Russia inside the EU, where Russia's 60.000 km long border including its 20.000 kilometer long land border - both the longest borders in the world - would be the outside border of the EU. Compared to the current EUs total land border of 14.000 KM, which includes borders with countries like Norway, Swiss and the Balkans that are either in the EEA or on its way to the EU. There are very very practical issues with a unified Russia becoming an EU member outside of any political ones.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,496
Dallas, TX


They should extend this to European asylum for Russian troops who desert. Have the Ukrainians print leaflets and spread them around. I know the Ukrainians were already offering checks as an inducement to surrender, but a path out of Russia for them seems big.



Honestly, I could see a situation where some nuclear concession from the US is the bone we throw Putin to let him claim his strategy was a brilliant success while retreating, in order to avoid having to surrender some key bit of Ukrainian sovereignty. The Cuban Missile Crisis play, basically.



Some are reporting that Ukraine won't get jets, then I see reports that Ukrainean pilots are already in Poland? Does someone have a good source for this? Or could this be a ruse not to escalate further with Russia?


I'm almost wondering if this story is being intentionally garbled to screw with Russian intel or to create some cloud of deniability about the jets.
 

Dierce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,993
I don't know what to believe about this as you have other reporters saying Ukraine's pilots are in Poland right now. Whole thing is a mess.

Hell this same Politico reporter has gone back and forth.
It was probably meant to be a covert operation, but some EU politician leaked it early so now they are having to backtrack and deny that it's happening. It will most likely still happen but with plausible deniability. At least that's how I see it.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,129
Chile
I don't understand the question. The Soviets managed to overwhelm the Germans in the end but it was at a tremendous cost of human lives. But even before that, the fact that Germany took over large swaths of Russia by storm was due to Stalin wiping out all the experienced generals a few years prior and the army having extremely unskilled leadership.

It was more about Stalin not believing his generals and the allies' reports of the imminent invasion. It didn't take very long (about 6 months) until they got their shit together and started to push back. Even then, Barbarrosa was the biggest invasion in human history (an army of about 3 million people invading the whole region), even well prepared it was going to be ruthless.

But I think this is a discussion for another thread. The thing is that we shouldn't just throw useless phrases like that when there's a lot of history to unpack.

Unless you're the Mongolian army.

Well, they're the exception to almost every rule in history lol
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,185
What about we stick to the facts rather than fiction? Russian membership in EU and hypothetical war scenarios against Russia with no nukes? Come on.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,673
The Milky Way


(Stamp : 25:03. about sanctioning Kazakhstan for having ties with Russia)

ARE THEY NUUUUTS???!!!!!!!

Did everybody failed Geography there? I know nobody cares about Central Asian countries to learn History or Politics but look at FUCKING MAP and understand we cant FIGHT cuz nobody gonna HELP US and OUR WHOLE NORTH land right next Russia and China will not stay quiet either. So we have to stay quiet while being next to paranoid guy with NUKES.

All this end up doing is literally forcing us into USSR.

Don't take anything Truss says seriously. She has no clue and is so out of her depth in that role, much like her boss.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,788
United Kingdom
I'm not sure if the invasion would continue but heads of superpowers being assassinated doesn't often go well for the world historically. Internal instability in a country with a large nuclear stockpile is not something that the world should want.

If Putin were removed from power, it wouldn't be the first Russian coup in even my life time. Putin would only be assassinated if he didn't stand down quietly, or try to do something enormously stupid.

Not to mention the world is facing an era of instability already, because of Putin's actions.
 

Primal Sage

Virtually Real
Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,729
Do we know what the russians public opinion about this war is? Someone mentioned a poll that said it was less than 50% against it, is that true and if so did that change?
They are the ones that could really prompt change as all outsiders can do is sanction russia to hell and back until it breaks from the inside.

I believe that poll was made before the invasion and it was regarding Luhansk and Donetsk. Not the full invasion.
 

shiba5

I shed
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
15,791
Hannity forgot that he takes orders, not gives orders. FOX headline:

"Hannity calls on Russian Army to stop taking orders from Putin"

LOL
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,081
If Putin were removed from power, it wouldn't be the first Russian coup in even my life time. Putin would only be assassinated if he didn't stand down quietly, or try to do something enormously stupid.

Not to mention the world is facing an era of instability already, because of Putin's actions.

I just mean to say that coups are a really chaotic time and it may lead to a worse situation.

Of course. I'm not debating otherwise.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,407
I don't know what to believe about this as you have other reporters saying Ukraine's pilots are in Poland right now. Whole thing is a mess.

Hell this same Politico reporter has gone back and forth. Starting to question any of their sources related to this.

It's important to keep in mind that a tonne of the information being shared around (even by blue checkmarks on twitter) is misinformation/propaganda by both Russia and Ukraine. Information warfare is now part of war.
 

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,962
It's important to keep in mind that a tonne of the information being shared around (even by blue checkmarks on twitter) is misinformation/propaganda by both Russia and Ukraine. Information warfare is now part of war.
Well in this case its the EU, since it started with EU diplomats going back and forth! I agree with other posters, this may not be a clear-cut case of what is actually going on though for a variety of reasons.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Nah. They hold alliances with too many other nuclear powers. China would tell NATO to fuck off.
China isn't backing Russia XD. The west is financially their biggest partner. China helping Russia in a war is financial suicide. Besides the question and discussion was about a war without nukes. So I dunno why your argument is other got nukes.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,999
Stop with the war phantasies. There is a war going on with a lot of awful real things happening right now, so I don't understand the need to discuss about hypothetical wars. WTF?
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,086
Arkansas, USA
Does anyone know if there is an organization that links specific refugees to a sponsor that can help them financially? If so I'd be interested in following up to see if I can help.
 

Fliep

Banned
Feb 13, 2018
460
Russian citizens have a morale obligations to go on the streets and protest. They are in a similar situation like germans in 1938.
 

kafiend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,249
We have had people in this very thread freaking out because of the ridiculous and unnecessary nukes talk. Is terrifying the readers of a thread ever justified?

Is there not enough to conversation to be had on what is actually happening that you have to repeatedly talk about what just amounts to be nuclear fantasies?
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
Not that they'd ever want to invade Russia, but if they did no, they wouldn't be in Moscow in a week, as they'd do the logical thing and start of with weeks / months of bombardment to suppress any russian AA capability, and prepare supply lines. You know, in order not to have the problems Russia has right now.


Makes me think: can (or does) the EU actually blockade the Kalingrad enclave?
That's a declaration of war. Please no. Do not deny a country access to their sovereign land even if their war criminals.

If anything Europe should explicitly say they will guarantee access even if it means overflights on a limited corridor
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,257
I'm not sure if the invasion would continue but heads of superpowers being assassinated doesn't often go well for the world historically. Internal instability in a country with a large nuclear stockpile is not something that the world should want.
No one in power is (rightfully) saying it, but regime change is on the western power's minds right now. Putin is causing massive external instability, and I don't see how the rest of the world "normalizes" with Russia at this point as long as Putin is in charge. That river has been crossed. Most of these sanctions are aimed at depleting Putin's strength, and once you take away a strongman's strength, they can't maintain power for long.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,081
China isn't backing Russia XD. The west is financially their biggest partner. China helping Russia in a war is financial suicide. Besides the question and discussion was about a war without nukes. So I dunno why your argument is other got nukes.

If NATO were to invade Russia, it's not happening, it's not out of the question for China to side with Russia as they may see themselves as being next. If they don't join in, they could push further in the South China Sea as NATO would be occupied.

No one in power is (rightfully) saying it, but regime change is on the western power's minds right now. Putin is causing massive external instability, and I don't see how the rest of the world "normalizes" with Russia at this point as long as Putin is in charge. That river has been crossed. Most of these sanctions are aimed at depleting Putin's strength, and once you take away a strongman's strength, they can maintain power for long.

I know it is. Regime change through sanctions hasn't really worked in non-Democratic states. But if it causes Putin to step down and Russia to pull back its troops, I'm all for it.