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Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,316
Honestly it's fucking disgusting what Ru and Michelle say to these queens about their runway looks when they know exactly what these girls went through to get there.

Even in normal times it's bad, but we're in a fucking pandemic. Most of the girls in this season and likely the next will have gone more than a year without having their regular income, which only adds to the financial strain.

I obviously love this show, but sometimes it's hard dealing with Ru and Michelle's privileged, nasty asses. Tell the girls to save receipts and reimburse them up to $10K for their runway looks, you cheap assholes. It wouldn't completely level the playing field, but it sure as shit would help.
Here's the thing, we've seen queens who spent tons of money go home within the first few episodes while queens like Crystal, Sharon, and Bob go all the way to the end without spending a lot. Money never hurts, but it won't guarantee you'll do well.

I think queens feel pressure to spend a ton because fashion moments are what get the fanbase talking.
 
Oct 22, 2020
6,280
Here's the thing, we've seen queens who spent tons of money go home within the first few episodes while queens like Crystal, Sharon, and Bob go all the way to the end without spending a lot. Money never hurts, but it won't guarantee you'll do well.

I think queens feel pressure to spend a ton because fashion moments are what get the fanbase talking.
I think there are more than enough queens telling us that this is a problem for us to believe that this is a problem.
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,316
I think there are more than enough queens telling us that this is a problem for us to believe that this is a problem.
I agree with that, but I don't think this is a problem that judges can fix. Drag race is a platform and the queens have a limited amount of time to show their drag to an international audience. They're not spending for the judges so much as they're spending for the viewers.

Reimbursing the queens would certainly help out though as you said.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,908
While I DO think that the ballooning budget for the average drag race queen is getting out of control, I also think the problem is a little more complicated than "RuPaul and Michelle are evil." Because don't forget RuPaul and Michelle were also there for the early seasons, when design challenges dominated and the popular criticism, at the time, was "Waahh! Why is Drag Race trying to be a wannabe Project Runway!? Not every talented queen is a seamstress!" because people's faves were losing out to the girls who could sew.

And, even today, for every queen that spends a shit-ton of money on drag and essentially tries to buy their way into Drag Race fame (...Miss Cracker, I said what I said), there's is a Jaida Essence Hall -- the current reigning queen who made all but two of her costumes herself. And while none of Jaida's looks were big and bombastic in the way that's become the Drag Race norm, they were nonetheless chic, well put together, and fit her aesthetic as a queen.

And, I mean, there's also Utica from this season. Made one of the best runways of the season out of a sleeping bag.

There's a multiple factors that are contributing to the problem, but at the core, I think I the culprit is the show overcorrecting from the early seasons and trying too hard to chase what gets the fans talking.

I would personally love to see more design challenges, more thrift challenges (because when you're a new queen, this is STILL where most of your drag is coming from). Bring back the old school limits on what girls were allowed to bring with them. Will it lead to less "show stopping" runways and give an advantage to the girls who know their way around a sewing machine? Yeah. But I prefer that to the current advantage to girls with coin.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,501
I agree the budget thing is a problem, but I also don't see how they can solve it. They can't realistically encourage the looks to be more basic and less extravagant, the broad audience would lose it.

All talent-based reality shows have this issue as they go on. Great British Bake Off has a similar problem, but in a different way. As GBBO has gone on, they've had to amp up the challenges more and more, the skill it takes to execute. However, prep time and bake time hasn't really been extended to go along with it. The contestants just need to work harder and do more than they had to in earlier seasons. If you look at some of the winning bakes in the first couple seasons of GBBO, they look so simple and quaint that they'd probably be elimination bakes in a current season.
 
Oct 22, 2020
6,280
While I DO think that the ballooning budget for the average drag race queen is getting out of control, I also think the problem is a little more complicated than "RuPaul and Michelle are evil."
I'm not saying they're evil, but I am saying they're clearly a bit willfully oblivious to the problem.

Michelle lecturing queens who have experienced deep debt and poverty about how money isn't an excuse is just really gross, ignorant, and tone-deaf.

I agree the budget thing is a problem, but I also don't see how they can solve it. They can't realistically encourage the looks to be more basic and less extravagant, the broad audience would lose it.
I really do think you just give the queens an allowance - say between $5-10K - for runway looks. You don't just cut them a check; you do make them provide receipts and itemize expenses to get reimbursed.

That makes going into thousands of dollars of debt to be on Drag Race a choice, not a necessity.

I'm not asking for a completely level playing field. The gals who are master seamstresses or have wealthy families are always going to have an advantage, and it's kind of impossible to completely correct for that. (If they do their own work, that is a 100% legitimately earned advantage.) But at least give the less privileged queens a baseline.
 
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CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,501
I really do think you just give the queens an allowance - say between $5-10K - for runway looks. You don't just cut them a check; you do make them provide receipts and itemize expenses to get reimbursed.

That makes going into thousands of dollars of debt to be on Drag Race a choice, not a necessity.

I'm not asking for a completely level playing field. The gals who are master seamstresses or have wealthy families are always going to have an advantage, and it's kind of impossible to completely correct for that. (If they do their own work, that is a 100% legitimately earned advantage.) But at least give the less privileged queens a baseline.
It wouldn't matter. Queens with better connections to designers would call in favors to get extravagant dresses done for cheap, especially due to the exposure the show would get them. Then it becomes less about money and more about connections, which would alienate most queens who don't live in a big hub like LA or NYC.

I've thought about that too, but it wouldn't level any playing field, it would just make the game slightly harder to manipulate. The only truly fair thing I can think of is forcing the queens to only bring looks they've made themselves, but obviously that's a terrible idea because it fundamentally changes what the competition even is.

One idea is to kind of combine the allowance and design ideas, but keep it within the show. Each queen gets $10K to spend on bespoke handcrafted looks, but it's Drag Race-employed designers who work with the queens to make them. Then it becomes less about sewing skills and more about creativity, and all queens are working within the same parameters regarding material cost.
 
Oct 22, 2020
6,280
It wouldn't matter. Queens with better connections to designers would call in favors to get extravagant dresses done for cheap, especially due to the exposure the show would get them. Then it becomes less about money and more about connections, which would alienate most queens who don't live in a big hub like LA or NYC.

I've thought about that too, but it wouldn't level any playing field, it would just make the game slightly harder to manipulate. The only truly fair thing I can think of is forcing the queens to only bring looks they've made themselves, but obviously that's a terrible idea because it fundamentally changes what the competition even is.

One idea is to kind of combine the allowance and design ideas, but keep it within the show. Each queen gets $10K to spend on bespoke handcrafted looks, but it's Drag Race-employed designers who work with the queens to make them. Then it becomes less about sewing skills and more about creativity, and all queens are working within the same parameters regarding material cost.
Just to clarify, leveling any competitive disadvantages is a secondary concern for me. My primary concern - by a very large margin - is preventing queens from going heavily into debt by necessity just to appear on Drag Race. I think the latter should be the far bigger priority.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,501
Just to clarify, leveling any competitive disadvantages is a secondary concern for me. My primary concern - by a very large margin - is preventing queens from going heavily into debt by necessity just to appear on Drag Race. I think the latter should be the far bigger priority.
Yeah I think my solution is the only way to really solve that. Asking for receipts won't mean anything since designer's time is just as big a cost as materials, and those can be fudged super easily. Plus the queens could just buy something cheap and similar looking to an expensive material, and submit that receipt.There are a hundred ways asking for itemized receipts wouldn't work if the queen was determined enough.

It's a super complicated problem to solve, and the solution almost certainly can't come from babysitting the queens outside of the show. It would need to just be a more controlled environment inside the show
 

wars

Member
Apr 26, 2020
1,208
Lisbon,Portugal
In normal times the queens could make a lot of money in tours, world tours and regular shows, that would cover most of the costs of their drag, but with COVID 19.....

Now the queens can´t even profit that much while they are in the spotlight. Imagine smaller queens that don´t have this spotlight, they´re probably using their savings rn, so imagine if a queen went or wants to go to DR in like S13,14,15 at this point you´re basically bankrupt and you need to make something happen for the show. So you either get creative or you´re fucked.

Also don´t WOW give every queen a check before the show?

I think I read about that somewhere, but I do imagine it´s just a little help.

This conversation reminds me about the time that Honey Davenport admited that the costumes for Drag Race costed her more than 20k, and she went home 3rd and with a little fanbase. Yikes.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,908
COVID might mandate it, but I personally wouldn't mind a more stripped down season of Drag Race with less explosive runways.

Give them girls fabric and supplies, and some (working) sewing machines, and let them get creative. Bring back more "here's a pile a literal garbage; construct a garment" challenges (those are my favorite lol).

Is it an unfair advantage to the girls who know how to construct garments? In a way yeah. But while I understood the "Project Runway!" criticisms from back in the day, that doesn't mean I agreed with them. Personally, I think a somewhat necessary pillar of drag as an artform is being able to construct your own aesthetic. Sure, as working queens gain a budget and access they are going to work with designers, get hand-me-down costumes from drag mothers, etc. But I think every queen should have the fundamental ability, barring any sort of handicap, to put together their own look.

Because runways are kind of boring now, because these girls are going to the same handful of designers. I'd rather see some interesting hot ass messes from a design challenge on the runway, than Gigi's mom on half the queens.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,139
Michelle lecturing queens who have experienced deep debt and poverty about how money isn't an excuse is just really gross, ignorant, and tone-deaf.

This is where the show fails the queens in my view. Actively refusing to acknowledge this inequity adds a layer of disconnect between the show and audiences that know better. Money does make a difference. While there isn't much that Ru and company can do about that short of having every challenge feature a significant design element (zero complaints from me!), telling the queens to their face this doesn't matter has to be discouraging.

Money matters. Own it.
 

Frodo

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,338
One interesting challenge to level out the field slightly would have the queens design their look and have professionals sewing them for them within a budget. So they have to come with the idea for a garment based on a theme, and you can judge them on their fashion sense and creativity, and presentation, instead of execution.

Would probably reduce a lot of the drama, though. But a lot of the times I wonder if the idea for those dresses actually came from the queens themselves or they just had a creative designer that did all the work for them.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,407
Or do challenges were they are given a theme, get $300 and are allowed to go to a thrift store and a fabric store and get creative, that way queens who can't sow can get creative in other ways and they don't have to literally fight over the stuff production piles up in the werk room.
 

ToTheMoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,321
Or do challenges were they are given a theme, get $300 and are allowed to go to a thrift store and a fabric store and get creative, that way queens who can't sow can get creative in other ways and they don't have to literally fight over the stuff production piles up in the werk room.

I feel like they even did that in S2 or something, right? I guess a big concern now would be the queens being out in public and their identities leaking early.

Seeing them shopping around and discovering things organically would be more exciting than another "It's a bloodbath in here! The queens are out of control!! I don't even know what I'm grabbing!!!" moment.
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
I feel like they even did that in S2 or something, right? I guess a big concern now would be the queens being out in public and their identities leaking early.

Seeing them shopping around and discovering things organically would be more exciting than another "It's a bloodbath in here! The queens are out of control!! I don't even know what I'm grabbing!!!" moment.

Yeah, it was a S3 challenge. A fun one, too.



Drag Race is finally big enough now that they could completely shut down a store for a day, have no spectators, and have everyone involved sign an NDA.
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,316
Yeah, it was a S3 challenge. A fun one, too.



Drag Race is finally big enough now that they could completely shut down a store for a day, have no spectators, and have everyone involved sign an NDA.

I feel like everybody loves these design challenges and I don't know why the producers only give us 1 per season. Even the makeovers don't require sewing anymore.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,891
I guess we can put news about DRAU here? Because I fucking love this news:


FWIW it's Kylie *and* Danni as well as Taika. Bless.

A close friend also designed the first two outfits for one of the contestants, too. So I have someone to root for from the very beginning. Yay!
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
I feel like everybody loves these design challenges and I don't know why the producers only give us 1 per season. Even the makeovers don't require sewing anymore.

In real time, they only have about 24 hours to turn those looks out from assignment to runway. Season 3 about physically and mentally broke those queens.

Still, you're right, they could probably add at least one more + a mini challenge.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,908
Yeah, it was a S3 challenge. A fun one, too.



Drag Race is finally big enough now that they could completely shut down a store for a day, have no spectators, and have everyone involved sign an NDA.


Whenever I BEG for more day drag/thrift/creative challenges, this is the exact episode I'm thinking of.

And you're right, Drag Race is lucrative enough at this point that they could afford to do more of these challenges without leaks getting out.
 

Atlantis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
890
Season 3 about physically and mentally broke those queens.

Throwback to Season 3, Episode 13 immediately after RuPaul announced the Money Ball challenge:

y1OvfwX.jpg


Also, why would to danger of leaks matter at all when it comes to design challenges outside the studio? Each season's cast and elimination order are already leaked.
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,316
In real time, they only have about 24 hours to turn those looks out from assignment to runway. Season 3 about physically and mentally broke those queens.

Still, you're right, they could probably add at least one more + a mini challenge.
Yeah s3 was Rupaul's sweatshop; I think the top 3 queens ended up sewing and designing 12 garments, and that's not including all the sewing they did outside of challenges. The real gag though was that the hair ball, the makeover, and the money ball all happened one after another. I think spacing design challenges out like UKS2, S6, or even S11 is a way to give them some mercy while still diversifying things.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,407
I feel like they even did that in S2 or something, right? I guess a big concern now would be the queens being out in public and their identities leaking early.
The queens and the elimination order are leaked anyway, so why bother? The queen's identities aren't even a big secret, it's usually the ones who disappear from social media while drag race is shooting, it's not rocket science.

In real time, they only have about 24 hours to turn those looks out from assignment to runway. Season 3 about physically and mentally broke those queens.
They could add an extra week to shooting the season to relax the schedule a bit, the show makes a ton of money, they can easily afford that.
 

Jonnykong

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,889
I guess we can put news about DRAU here? Because I fucking love this news:


FWIW it's Kylie *and* Danni as well as Taika. Bless.

A close friend also designed the first two outfits for one of the contestants, too. So I have someone to root for from the very beginning. Yay!


I hope these two are actual guest judges, and don't just appear on a screen for a little chat.

Oh it says guest judge right there, Jesus christ wake up, Jonny
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,908
I hate to say it, but Kandy won that. That was her strongest lip sync. lol
 

Magnus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,350
I'll stan for Rosé forever. Want her to win. Hard to not call Kandy the winner of that one, though.

Forgot about the sprained ankle, however. Fuck.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,908
Kandy Muse in the final lip sync really just says it all about this season. LOL
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,908
Wow...I really didn't think we wouldn't see Gottmik in the final lip sync...but the lip syncs were correct.
 

Zero315

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,184
So there's no way Olivia isn't winning Miss Congeniality, right?

Then again with this nightmare of a season watch them give it to Tina or some shit