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Renovatio

Member
Oct 23, 2019
33
User banned (1 week): platform warring, history of similar behavior, account in junior phase
Thinking how Microsoft will reply to Sony after 3 years in new generation, where ps5 pro will kill all Xbox on market from power point of view. You can't go with 3 console to confuse customer, you can't be less powerful than Sony. You can have a cheaper price, but with ps5 pro, also ps5 slim will be less expensive.

Pop corn.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,123
Xbox One X was designed to run Xbox One games at 4K. Hence a 6TF GCN GPU was needed to effectively do that.

Lockhart is designed to run Project Scarlett games at 1080p. Hence a 4TF RDNA GPU is adequate to achieve that.

Lockhart has major improvements in CPU, RAM, and SSD compared to Xbox One X, that developers can't just scale down to it the same way you can on Lockhart.

That's not to say it's a flip of a switch to get your Scarlett game on Lockhart, it will require the developers to do extra work, but it will be much, much simpler than porting it to the Xbox One X.

I wonder how far below 1080p it might drop...
 

Morgan J

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,685
Thinking how Microsoft will reply to Sony after 3 years in new generation, where ps5 pro will kill all Xbox on market from power point of view. You can't go with 3 console to confuse customer, you can't be less powerful than Sony. You can have a cheaper price, but with ps5 pro, also ps5 slim will be less expensive.

Pop corn.
Yesterday you cried like a child over 2 skus from MS, and Sony was THE saviour no matter the Price because of One sku.

And now you continuing with your tales from the ass. and postcount is under what,30 posts?

😂
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,447
Thinking how Microsoft will reply to Sony after 3 years in new generation, where ps5 pro will kill all Xbox on market from power point of view. You can't go with 3 console to confuse customer, you can't be less powerful than Sony. You can have a cheaper price, but with ps5 pro, also ps5 slim will be less expensive.

Pop corn.
MS is doomed why are they even bothering?
 

Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Thinking how Microsoft will reply to Sony after 3 years in new generation, where ps5 pro will kill all Xbox on market from power point of view. You can't go with 3 console to confuse customer, you can't be less powerful than Sony. You can have a cheaper price, but with ps5 pro, also ps5 slim will be less expensive.

Pop corn.
MS has three SKUs on the market right now and nobody's confused.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,416
Was it Tom Warren who was going to explain the reason for Lockhart's existence once the specs leaked?
 

bdwnfn99

Member
Oct 25, 2017
837
Many will balk at this because it's a feature that not purely for gaming, but I think it's a great idea. The hardware's all there, and microphones are very cheap, so it wouldn't affect price much, and for MS would be an incredibly clever way of creating an 'Alexa but for your entertainment area'. The main application of it will obviously be for media use (Netflix, Spotify, Youtube, etc.), but there'd definitely be scope for interesting implementations in gaming.
You should balk at this because he's French Supermetaldave
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
Thinking how Microsoft will reply to Sony after 3 years in new generation, where ps5 pro will kill all Xbox on market from power point of view. You can't go with 3 console to confuse customer, you can't be less powerful than Sony. You can have a cheaper price, but with ps5 pro, also ps5 slim will be less expensive.

Pop corn.
Microsoft doesn't care. They will release hardware every year if they can. Their games are designed to be PC pliable. The end game is the 10 dollars a month - not the box.
 
Jan 10, 2018
7,207
Tokyo
The number of TF scales pretty linearly with the number of pixels pushed by the system, no (genuine question)? In this case, what's the problem with games being 4k/30fps (even dynamic 4K if you wish to push other aspects of the visuals) on a 12TF machine, and 1080p/30fps on a 4TF machine?
EIther way, I really hope that a cheaper machine is considered, because I may definitely bite if that's the case.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
Thinking how Microsoft will reply to Sony after 3 years in new generation, where ps5 pro will kill all Xbox on market from power point of view. You can't go with 3 console to confuse customer, you can't be less powerful than Sony. You can have a cheaper price, but with ps5 pro, also ps5 slim will be less expensive.

Pop corn.
The main reason for mid gen upgrades this gen was the quick adoption of 4K televisions. PS5 and Anaconda will both be very capable of 4K, so unless 8K takes off maybe there won't be a big enough demand for a mid gen refresh. Who knows.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,416

Renovatio

Member
Oct 23, 2019
33
Yesterday you cried like a child over 2 skus from MS, and Sony was THE saviour no matter the Price because of One sku.

And now you continuing with your tales from the ass. and postcount is under what,30 posts?

😂
So what, i don't care postcount battle for nerds, i don't care who think your opinion is better because your postcount is bigger. I was just considering Sony could make a ps5 pro after a few years, cause 8k upscaling could be a chance to get, very soon.

Microsoft could be forced to introduce a third console and yes, will be very different from now days. Xbox one, and s, and digital are the same console (no bluray on the last, of course), Xbox one X is the other one. Two right now.

What will happen if they're gonna be three?

So silly to start new generation with a brake. That's my view.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
The X doesn't have a new CPU or an SSD. You'll need to buy a new console to play next gen games.

I actually think that alot of launch games, third party at the very least, are going to be cross gen. Which is why the fact that Lockhart is a thing kind of surprises me.

The people that don't want to spend alot will probably just keep playing in current gen consoles until the next gen consoles (anaconda&ps5) become cheaper. I really don't see alot of people jumping from current gen consoles to lockhart unless there are very few cross gen games.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,416
I actually think that alot of launch games, third party at the very least, are going to be cross gen. Which is why the fact that Lockhart is a thing kind of surprises me.

The people that don't want to spend alot will probably just keep playing in current gen consoles until the next gen consoles (anaconda&ps5) become cheaper. I really don't see alot of people jumping from current gen consoles to lockhart unless there are very few cross gen games.

I think a lot of next gen games will be designed with the SSD and CPU in mind, those games will be unplayable at a certain point on previous gen consoles. So the Lockhart will still be a cheap and easy way to get into the next gen environment.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
I think a lot of next gen games will be designed with the SSD and CPU in mind, those games will be unplayable at a certain point on previous gen consoles. So the Lockhart will still be a cheap and easy way to get into the next gen environment.

Eventually Yeah, but at launch? Didn't the first year or two of the current gen have a ton of cross gen games?

So that still leaves me with the question as to why Lockhart would be interesting to people on a tight budget... Wouldn't they rather just wait a few years to buy the Anaconda or ps5?
 

Vordan

Member
Aug 12, 2018
2,489
Wasn't there a windows central article way back talking about how Microsoft plans to have all games on Xbox one X and next gen for the first few years?
That's normal and how this gen started too. DAI was cross gen, so was COD BOIII. Usually by the second or third year game start coming out which are next gen exclusive. W3 was the first next gen exclusive game that I played, and that came out 2 years after the new consoles debuted.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,416
Eventually Yeah, but at launch? Didn't the first year or two of the current gen have a ton of cross gen games?

So that still leaves me with the question as to why Lockhart would be interesting to people on a tight budget... Wouldn't they rather just wait a few years to buy the Anaconda or ps5?

There definitely will be cross gen games at or near launch but I do think next gen consoles (including Lockhart) will have advantages over those versions. Although I don't even know if we know for a fact that Lockhart is indeed launching alongside Anaconda in 2020, it may launch later, who knows.

To your second question, I don't believe so. People won't necessarily wait for a price drop on the more expensive consoles, how long would that take? If the price difference between Lockhart and Anaconda is meaningful, I think people will be prepared to jump on it so they can play some of the new games. I would imagine the price for Lockhart would also drop alongside the PS5 and Anaconda.
 

Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
That's not true: i heard many people talking about 4k...on Xbox one s.

I mean MS marketed the S as a 4K capable device... for video. Maybe that's what they were confused about? Either way, that has nothing to do with the point you're arguing. it really has been proven a device can be successful with multiple SKUs, the Xbox One S/ SAD / X trio is a successful one, as proven this black friday.
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,447
So what, i don't care postcount battle for nerds, i don't care who think your opinion is better because your postcount is bigger. I was just considering Sony could make a ps5 pro after a few years, cause 8k upscaling could be a chance to get, very soon.

Microsoft could be forced to introduce a third console and yes, will be very different from now days. Xbox one, and s, and digital are the same console (no bluray on the last, of course), Xbox one X is the other one. Two right now.

What will happen if they're gonna be three?

So silly to start new generation with a brake. That's my view.
Not if you've been paying attention at all to what MS has been saying. They've been touting an ecosystem. So many devices, including PC, and different versions of consoles can exist and hopefully thrive within that ecosystem. Same as different tiers of a cell phone. Your problem is continuing to compare to Sony, who is more set in traditional ways in some regards. We'll see where it all goes, but worrying about one an additional system in the mix, or Pro versions 4 years from now seems a little hasty.
 

Morgan J

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,685
So what, i don't care postcount battle for nerds, i don't care who think your opinion is better because your postcount is bigger. I was just considering Sony could make a ps5 pro after a few years, cause 8k upscaling could be a chance to get, very soon.

Microsoft could be forced to introduce a third console and yes, will be very different from now days. Xbox one, and s, and digital are the same console (no bluray on the last, of course), Xbox one X is the other one. Two right now.

What will happen if they're gonna be three?

So silly to start new generation with a brake. That's my view.
I don't want to buy a stupid 500 bucks Anaconda, i want a 200 dollars console pushed to its limits with god of war.
What is wrong with Microsoft? You can't accept console are PC, i can do some many other things and play every type of game with personal computers.

Don't want, really don't want a stupid Lockhart!


Well, I know That I Will never take you seriously after That 😂
 
Last edited:

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
There definitely will be cross gen games at or near launch but I do think next gen consoles (including Lockhart) will have advantages over those versions. Although I don't even know if we know for a fact that Lockhart is indeed launching alongside Anaconda in 2020, it may launch later, who knows.

To your second question, I don't believe so. People won't necessarily wait for a price drop on the more expensive consoles, how long would that take? If the price difference between Lockhart and Anaconda is meaningful, I think people will be prepared to jump on it so they can play some of the new games. I would imagine the price for Lockhart would also drop alongside the PS5 and Anaconda.

This is a very good point and one i kind of overlooked. I guess i'm too biased to look at this picture clearly. Just because i don't think a console like Lockhart is worth it doesn't mean others Can't see the value of it i guess.

I still don't understand why Microsoft went this route though. Without Lockhart the situation i described would probably be what would happen. People on lower budgets would just wait a few years until the cross gen games would stop coming and until the Anaconda dropped in price a bit. I don't see what is wrong with this scenario.

The only thing i can think of is Microsoft wanting to maximize their userbase from day 1 instead of letting it grow over time.
 

Chille

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,996
That's normal and how this gen started too. DAI was cross gen, so was COD BOIII. Usually by the second or third year game start coming out which are next gen exclusive. W3 was the first next gen exclusive game that I played, and that came out 2 years after the new consoles debuted.
Yeah but it's not often for first party games
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
The number of TF scales pretty linearly with the number of pixels pushed by the system, no (genuine question)?

Yeah, that's correct enough to be true for the people arguing in defense of lockhart here -- but it's way more complex than that, so don't make big assumptions based on it in other cases.

Basically, some things scale linearly per pixel, some things scale nonlinearly per pixel, and some things scale based on totally different things (vertex count, buffer size, etc.) But there are plenty of things necessary for a modern game that scale favorably enough that a 3:1 margin for 4k vs 1080p is enough to have parity aside from resolution and stuff like shadow samples.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,416
This is a very good point and one i kind of overlooked. I guess i'm too biased to look at this picture clearly. Just because i don't think a console like Lockhart is worth it doesn't mean others Can't see the value of it i guess.

I still don't understand why Microsoft went this route though. Without Lockhart the situation i described would probably be what would happen. People on lower budgets would just wait a few years until the cross gen games would stop coming and until the Anaconda dropped in price a bit. I don't see what is wrong with this scenario.

The only thing i can think of is Microsoft wanting to maximize their userbase from day 1 instead of letting it grow over time.

It's definitely there to maximize user base as soon as possible. The more people who own an Xbox device, the more likely they are to sub to XBL/Gamepass, and giving a cheap option to people is one way to do it.

I need that Anaconda power though.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,614
I think a lot of next gen games will be designed with the SSD and CPU in mind, those games will be unplayable at a certain point on previous gen consoles. So the Lockhart will still be a cheap and easy way to get into the next gen environment.
Next Gen consoles will still support external drives, doubt they'd restrict that to SSDs. Especially since games will be made for PCs with platter drives. Devs will still have to account for slower harddrives. Don't think that is changing anytime soon.
 

JFoul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,783
Next Gen consoles will still support external drives, doubt they'd restrict that to SSDs. Especially since games will be made for PCs with platter drives. Devs will still have to account for slower harddrives. Don't think that is changing anytime soon.

I'm hoping these new consoles have at least one USB4 port for fast external storage.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,416
Next Gen consoles will still support external drives, doubt they'd restrict that to SSDs. Especially since games will be made for PCs with platter drives. Devs will still have to account for slower harddrives. Don't think that is changing anytime soon.

Well the consoles will have SSDs standard, and they won't only be used for storage purposes. By changes in game design I'm thinking about things like crawling through small areas to mask load times (ie Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order) - maybe we see that stuff gone next gen.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
Next Gen consoles will still support external drives, doubt they'd restrict that to SSDs. Especially since games will be made for PCs with platter drives. Devs will still have to account for slower harddrives. Don't think that is changing anytime soon.
I kind of doubt they will support external drives, precisely for performance reasons.
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
Yeah, that's correct enough to be true for the people arguing in defense of lockhart here -- but it's way more complex than that, so don't make big assumptions based on it in other cases.

Basically, some things scale linearly per pixel, some things scale nonlinearly per pixel, and some things scale based on totally different things (vertex count, buffer size, etc.) But there are plenty of things necessary for a modern game that scale favorably enough that a 3:1 margin for 4k vs 1080p is enough to have parity aside from resolution and stuff like shadow samples.

This is exactly what I was about to ask, thank you. I know that a big chunk of the RAM difference can be accounted for by the difference in resolution, but I had no idea on the GPU disparity.

So generally on Lockhart, we can expect the same games, with similar graphics and similar framerates, at a lower resolution.

The reason is xCloud (and reaching more console people). Don't need anymore than that.

Yeah, I imagine if xCloud wasn't a thing then they wouldn't have even bothered with Lockhart. But now they get the best of both worlds: perfect hardware to replace Xbox One S in xCloud and a lower entry point for consumers.
 

Karate Kid

Banned
Jan 29, 2018
340
Microsoft about to have the most and least powerful console next gen, ps5 will be in the middle. Checkmate sony lol
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
Streaming a game while downloading a game sounds like a terrible idea, tbh. This sounds like one of those things Microsoft floats but never actually does.
Why? They already have speed limiter in place for when playing a game and downloading, they simply reserve 20Mbps for streaming and let download speed fluctuate for rest of bandwidth.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,510
Chicagoland
While Lockhart may (or will) indeed make up the bulk of next-gen Xbox sales, going forward after 2020/2021, 3rd party devs are going to want to target the overall baseline of new hardware (PC, PS5, Stadia, plus those who have Anaconda) which will all be 10+ TFlops. So Lockhart may end up getting downports in terms of graphical detail, lighting, etc. and with lower framerates (even at just 1080p).

We all saw what happened with XBox One even at the start of this generation. A lot of 900p/720p resolution
 

professor_t

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,332
Microsoft about to have the most and least powerful console next gen, ps5 will be in the middle. Checkmate sony lol

At the end of the day, I think the PS5 is going to perform the best, given that all of the rumors point in that direction, but it may actually have a lower number of TF (making up the ground in other ways). However, I expect the real world difference between Anaconda and PS5 to be negligible.
 
Jun 22, 2018
2,154
While Lockhart may (or will) indeed make up the bulk of next-gen Xbox sales, going forward after 2020/2021, 3rd party devs are going to want to target the overall baseline of new hardware (PC, PS5, Stadia, plus those who have Anaconda) which will all be 10+ TFlops. So Lockhart may end up getting downports in terms of graphical detail, lighting, etc. and with lower framerates (even at just 1080p).

We all saw what happened with XBox One even at the start of this generation. A lot of 900p/720p resolution
That's the whole point of Lockhart. Lower power means lower performance.

Game devs target the top end they reasonably have budget for. Then from their they scale things down to different hardware options. So, Lockhart's existence won't really change anything about how devs set their targets.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,510
Chicagoland
That's the whole point of Lockhart. Lower power means lower performance.

Game devs target the top end they reasonably have budget for. Then from their they scale things down to different hardware options. So, Lockhart's existence won't really change anything about how devs set their targets.

So why would developers be unhappy with and skeptical of Lockhart. as Richard Leadbetter stated?