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Vagabond

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,327
United States
I have been saying this - and I still think this is where Google should have taken their effort:

Switch + Chromecast dongle or wirelessly enabled decently powered home dock would be the ultimate console.
 

Turrican3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
781
Italy
Low effort wouldn't be the case here if they're adding a new developer profile that only this home console would have. Hardware wise the normal Mariko Switch could probably achieve the same ~60% performance increase with no changes, the issue is that this would require developers to now have to target an additional perfomance spec on top of the 2 they already have, which is not an easy thing for developers to do. Especially for a relatively niche product which wouldn't have that big of an install base to support this much extra dev costs/time.
I was talking about the engineering/hardware effort by the way.

Switch already has multiple profiles (can't remember whether they can be combined so let's just say there are at least two), with the way modern games already have to deal with a plethora of different hardware I think/hope adding a third one isn't going to be a huge deal. Hopefully!
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
I was talking about the engineering/hardware effort by the way.

Switch already has multiple profiles (can't remember whether they can be combined so let's just say there are at least two), with the way modern games already have to deal with a plethora of different hardware I think/hope adding a third one isn't going to be a huge deal. Hopefully!

Adding another profile ONLY for a dedicated home console which will sell 10m at the most (probably not even that much) is what I'm saying makes no sense. You're asking developers to do additional work for something barely anyone will use, so most will just opt not to do it. Which would make the entire thing pointless.

A home only Switch makes sense as a cheaper alternative (especially if it doesn't have a game card slot as reported), not a beefier one.
 

Mr. Pointy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,141
Adding another profile ONLY for a dedicated home console which will sell 10m at the most (probably not even that much) is what I'm saying makes no sense. You're asking developers to do additional work for something barely anyone will use, so most will just opt not to do it. Which would make the entire thing pointless.

A home only Switch makes sense as a cheaper alternative (especially if it doesn't have a game card slot as reported), not a beefier one.
A home-only Switch would only require docked hardware clock profiles. Developers already doing it anyway. I doubt it would contain anything weird in its design that would have major compatibility issues. It's still using Tegra X1.

And if, I suspect, it's digital-only, Nintendo, publishers and developers appreciate the extra revenue. Even if only sells 10 million, that's a decent amount to add to the overall hardware mix, and potentially a decent chunk of extra software sales.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
A home-only Switch would only require docked hardware clock profiles. Developers already doing it anyway. I doubt it would contain anything weird in its design that would have major compatibility issues. It's still using Tegra X1.

And if, I suspect, it's digital-only, Nintendo, publishers and developers appreciate the extra revenue. Even if only sells 10 million, that's a decent amount to add to the overall hardware mix, and potentially a decent chunk of extra software sales.

Right, that's what I'm saying. I'm arguing against this idea of a more powerful home only Switch, that's what makes no sense. A cheap box that has standard docked mode performance on the other hand makes a lot of sense.
 

Mr. Pointy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,141
I don't even think we'll actually get a Switch Pro or New Switch or whatever the half-step more powerful Switch will be called.

I think Nintendo will go straight to Switch 2: Judgement Day.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
I don't even think we'll actually get a Switch Pro or New Switch or whatever the half-step more powerful Switch will be called.

I think Nintendo will go straight to Switch 2: Judgement Day.

Yeah I agree. All of these form factors that have been datamined use the same TX1/Mariko chip so there's really no indication of some separate pro device in the works.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,926
Yeah I agree. All of these form factors that have been datamined use the same TX1/Mariko chip so there's really no indication of some separate pro device in the works.
Same chip but I was under the impression there were still datamined higher performance profiles and memory configurations not used in any current Switch models?
 

Common Knowledge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,250
All I want to know is if the Switch Pro will be powerful enough to give us themes of like...red, and blue, maybe even green. Or is hardware that powerful a few more years out?
 

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
Considering that the Oculus Quest sports a snapdragon 835, I'm leaning towards Nintendo creating some kind of wireless VR head unit in comparison to that device using the Mariko chip... The Labo VR definitely seems like they were testing the waters and VR for the Switch family of devices could definitely keep the brand looking fresh in the face of the other new systems.

Question is though, would they go for a full head mounted unit with all of the hardware inside (and how much would that cost) vs a docking head unit for the hybrid Switch at cheaper price?
 
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JCal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,352
Los Alfheim
What a monkey paw type deal. A docked only Switch, but it's all digital. Fuck that! Don't you dare, Nintendo. If you're gonna do it, do it right.
 

Dakhil

Member
Mar 26, 2019
4,459
Orange County, CA
Considering that the Oculus Quest sports a snapdragon 835, I'm leaning towards Nintendo creating some kind of wireless VR head unit in comparison to that device using the Mariko chip... The Labo VR definitely seems like they were testing the waters and VR for the Switch family of devices could definitely keep the brand looking fresh in the face of the other new systems.

Question is though, would they go for a full head mounted unit with all of the hardware inside (and how much would that cost) vs a docking head unit for the hybrid Switch at cheaper price?

I'm guessing Nintendo will take the same approach as Sony, where there's a separate VR headset, but it needs to be connected to the main console (which I'm guessing to be in this case the purported TV only Nintendo Switch model) to function.
 

Timeaisis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,139
Austin, TX
nintendo_nx_fake.0.0.jpg
 

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
At this point, I would much rather Nintendo branch out the Switch brand in VR and just bring out Switch 2 by 2022 or 2023...
No need for a main system upgrade unless it's on a new chip with a overall design refresh as well...
 

Mr. Wonderful

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,295
I honestly don't know if I have any interest in a VR Switch. It seems like a fad from the last decade, kind of like 3D movies, until technology gets to the right place to really nail it for everyday consumers.
 

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
I honestly don't know if I have any interest in a VR Switch. It seems like a fad from the last decade, kind of like 3D movies, until technology gets to the right place to really nail it for everyday consumers.

The thing I like about the Quest is the ability to provide an all-in-1 experience, but also link to a computer to play more high fidelity VR PC games. If Nintendo could do something similar that has the ability to link to a Switch 2 down the road, at least they would have a decent VR solution for those that may want something different...
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524

Tunesmith

Fraud & Player Security
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,938
"Second screen of sorts"
My take: A Switch with Wii U-like ability to project to a TV without a dock simultaneously while using it as a handheld.

Can be used as a VR headset to offer a second social experience on the TV.

Can be used to play Mario Maker the way everyone intended.
 

Deleted member 35631

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 8, 2017
1,139
I would be on board for a PlayStation TV-like Switch. Just a little piece of hardware to connect to the TV and play. That would be awesome!
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
I don't even think we'll actually get a Switch Pro or New Switch or whatever the half-step more powerful Switch will be called.

I think Nintendo will go straight to Switch 2: Judgement Day.

It depends on how Nintendo internally sees the Switch. If it's mainly a portable for them we'll see a "pro" model no doubt, if they see it as a home console, then they'll jump straight to the next generation.
 

Turrican3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
781
Italy
Adding another profile ONLY for a dedicated home console which will sell 10m at the most (probably not even that much) is what I'm saying makes no sense. You're asking developers to do additional work for something barely anyone will use, so most will just opt not to do it. Which would make the entire thing pointless.

A home only Switch makes sense as a cheaper alternative (especially if it doesn't have a game card slot as reported), not a beefier one.
To each his own I guess: to me it's the home Switch with no improvements that makes no sense, especially considering making it more powerful would have a near zero impact on manufacturing costs.

But let's go back to the software side.

Right now there's a lot of software, especially first party, that renders at dynamic resolution. This means developers are already dealing with multiple performance levels. Now, I'm not a professional game developer but I don't think it's too unreasonable to guess that a properly written code will relatively easily deal with the decreased load of the (alleged) higher clocked Mariko GPU.

Third parties, as I said before, are mostly used to a wide range of graphic options thanks to PC development, so it should be easy for them too.

But most of all: Switch is a healthy platform. So I expect, given my assumptions are true, lots of developers (and Nintendo itself) should be more than willing to leverage on the extra power of the X1+ in a home console configuration.

And please don't forget Switch was likely built with scalability in mind. If not now, you can be 99.9% sure more performance profiles are going to be implemented as soon as a second generation system comes into play. I believe you're severely overestimating the efforts required to accommodate all of this.

I mean, we've already seen hacked Switch running games at improved performance/graphics just by virtue of forcing higher clocks or even editing a configuration file!
 
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z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
None of these new models are guaranteed to release either, they might just continue to be worked on behind the scenes and release as part of switch 2 with entirely different internals. Think wiimotes first being used on gamecube.

Nintendo will likely release new hardware next year, and I think a new version of the hybrid is likely, same internals, but just an upgraded look, like a 3ds xl style upgrade, maybe they add a higher profile or unlock docked clocks for on the go.

A console that works as a new dock with some SCD features would probably sell 10 million, and a stand alone VR device could certainly sell if they can get the price low enough, but both products are personally more interesting to me with a switch 2, for higher performance and usb 4.0.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
To each his own I guess: to me it's the home Switch with no improvements that makes no sense, especially considering making it more powerful would have a near zero impact on manufacturing costs.

But let's go back to the software side.

Right now there's a lot of software, especially first party, that renders at dynamic resolution. This means developers are already dealing with multiple performance levels. Now, I'm not a professional game developer but I don't think it's too unreasonable to guess that a properly written code will relatively easily deal with the decreased load of the (alleged) higher clocked Mariko GPU.

Third parties, as I said before, are mostly used to a wide range of graphic options thanks to PC development, so it should be easy for them too.

But most of all: Switch is a healthy platform. So I expect, given my assumptions are true, lots of developers (and Nintendo itself) should be more than willing to leverage on the extra power of the X1+ in a home console configuration.

And please don't forget Switch was likely built with scalability in mind. If not now, you can be 99.9% sure more performance profiles are going to be implemented as soon as a second generation system comes into play. I believe you're severely overestimating the efforts required to accommodate all of this.

I mean, we've already seen hacked Switch running games at improved performance/graphics just by virtue of forcing higher clocks or even editing a configuration file!

A) A much cheaper home console only can happen if you don't dramatically increase clock speeds. Otherwise it can't be as cheap because with increased clock speed you need more room for thermal dissipation and you get fewer workable chips meaning the SoC does indeed become more expensive due to lower yields. The fact that they are apparently not even including a game card slot should indicate that this is supposed to be a lot cheaper.

B) The major issue isn't devs accommodating for a higher profile in future ports, its that the ~2500 games that are already there would see nearly no benefit outside of slightly higher average resolutions and framerates without devs going back and patching those games. That doesn't seem like enough of a benefit to warrant adding all of this to both the hardware and firmware.
 

Turrican3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
781
Italy
A) A much cheaper home console only can happen if you don't dramatically increase clock speeds. Otherwise it can't be as cheap because with increased clock speed you need more room for thermal dissipation and you get fewer workable chips meaning the SoC does indeed become more expensive due to lower yields.
I thought it was a deliberate choice on Nintendo's part (to save battery) avoiding higher clocks with the improved Tegra X1+, i.e. there is nothing preventing Nintendo to do that... is this an incorrect assumption? Honest question, as I do not know whether this has been tested/verified, nor I am aware of the Shield version specs (is it the exact same chip or not, etc.)

Thermal dissipation shouldn't be an issue for a non-hybrid form factor targeting TV output, which has very different size constraints.

B) The major issue isn't devs accommodating for a higher profile in future ports, its that the ~2500 games that are already there would see nearly no benefit outside of slightly higher average resolutions and framerates without devs going back and patching those games.
Fair enough, to be honest we don't even know about the slight benefits as I understand each profile must be *explicitly* activated on the Switch, so without a patch I assume games would run basically with the exact same performance.

Having said that, we've seen many developers giving long term support to their games so I believe a patch isn't totally out of question (and after all we're talking about improvements that would mostly affect the most complex ones, there's no need to patch each and every Switch game)
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
15,896
man, if the TV-only pro supporters win, and the best way to play the games on Nintendo's hybrid platform is on a non-hybrid, did we ever really get a hybrid at all?
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
I thought it was a deliberate choice on Nintendo's part (to save battery) avoiding higher clocks with the improved Tegra X1+, i.e. there is nothing preventing Nintendo to do that... is this an incorrect assumption? Honest question, as I do not know whether this has been tested/verified, nor I am aware of the Shield version specs (is it the exact same chip or not, etc.)

Thermal dissipation shouldn't be an issue for a non-hybrid form factor targeting TV output, which has very different size constraints.


Fair enough, to be honest we don't even know about the slight benefits as I understand each profile must be *explicitly* activated on the Switch, so without a patch I assume games would run basically with the exact same performance.

Having said that, we've seen many developers giving long term support to their games so I believe a patch isn't totally out of question (and after all we're talking about improvements that would mostly affect the most complex ones, there's no need to patch each and every Switch game)

It was a deliberate choice, yes, but that doesn't mean they can change it at the drop of a hat. As you raise the working clocks more and more fabricated chips will not be found satisfactory at those higher speeds so they'll have to bin them, meaning they'll get lower yields, meaning more overall cost. And cooling is only an issue when it comes to what form factor the home only console will take. If it's something like an Amazon fire stick and sold for like $99 there's likely no room for them to raise the internal heat. So if they need it to be bigger it will wind up costing more to manufacture and ship.

man, if the TV-only pro supporters win, and the best way to play the games on Nintendo's hybrid platform is on a non-hybrid, did we ever really get a hybrid at all?

The best way to play it for me will always be in handheld mode, since I find being tethered to a TV very difficult these days. Graphics/performance aren't the sole indicator of the "best" way to play a game. Otherwise why are people buying The Witcher 3 on Switch?
 
Sep 14, 2019
3,030
Is there a chance we might get a "Pro" Switch next year then?

Wouldn't mind sticking with Switch if it means we'd get current gen games on it, like Resident Evil 3.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
Is there a chance we might get a "Pro" Switch next year then?

Wouldn't mind sticking with Switch if it means we'd get current gen games on it, like Resident Evil 3.

Power isn't the reason we don't have RE3R. And a Switch Pro very likely wouldn't be getting exclusives (i.e. games not on the base Switch) anyway.

But to answer your question nothing about the datamined info suggests they are working on a new SoC for a hypothetical pro, so it seems unlikely.
 
Sep 14, 2019
3,030
Power isn't the reason we don't have RE3R. And a Switch Pro very likely wouldn't be getting exclusives (i.e. games not on the base Switch) anyway.

But to answer your question nothing about the datamined info suggests they are working on a new SoC for a hypothetical pro, so it seems unlikely.

Bummer. I'll guess I'll still have to consider a gaming desktop or PS5.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
It was a deliberate choice, yes, but that doesn't mean they can change it at the drop of a hat. As you raise the working clocks more and more fabricated chips will not be found satisfactory at those higher speeds so they'll have to bin them, meaning they'll get lower yields, meaning more overall cost. And cooling is only an issue when it comes to what form factor the home only console will take. If it's something like an Amazon fire stick and sold for like $99 there's likely no room for them to raise the internal heat. So if they need it to be bigger it will wind up costing more to manufacture and ship.

The Mariko chip is running base Tegra X1 specs, with base Tegra X1's cooling. There is plenty of room to up clocks and achieve a 30% to 60% increase in performance over the general platform without need for patching.

If you watched one of the recent digital foundry videos (I believe it was), they show off what a small 20% (1.2GHz) CPU clock can do for frame rate in wolfenstein young blood, and you also have to remember that the original Tegra X1 20nm chip was down clocked for Switch, moving to 12nm has drastically increased clock overhead, and is why there is a gpu profile for Mariko with a 1.267GHz clock, they can absolutely bump the specs 30% across the CPU, GPU and RAM without changing cooling or even patching the games. It would solve frame rate issues in links awakening, max dynamic resolutions and keep the system from dropping frames in all current titles. They could also patch in AA with little work, or add higher resolution targets in stuff like botw for hitting 1080p.

That is what is possible on both this console and the current red box switch units.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
The Mariko chip is running base Tegra X1 specs, with base Tegra X1's cooling. There is plenty of room to up clocks and achieve a 30% to 60% increase in performance over the general platform without need for patching.

If you watched one of the recent digital foundry videos (I believe it was), they show off what a small 20% (1.2GHz) CPU clock can do for frame rate in wolfenstein young blood, and you also have to remember that the original Tegra X1 20nm chip was down clocked for Switch, moving to 12nm has drastically increased clock overhead, and is why there is a gpu profile for Mariko with a 1.267GHz clock, they can absolutely bump the specs 30% across the CPU, GPU and RAM without changing cooling or even patching the games. It would solve frame rate issues in links awakening, max dynamic resolutions and keep the system from dropping frames in all current titles. They could also patch in AA with little work, or add higher resolution targets in stuff like botw for hitting 1080p.

That is what is possible on both this console and the current red box switch units.

I know it's possible, my point is that when they're designing this hypothetical console it would need adequate cooling to be able to hit these clocks. If they want to make something the size of the Switch then that should be doable, but if they want to make something the size of an Amazon fire stick for instance I don't think that would be possible at the clocks we're talking about. And yes, I know there's currently a Shield TV which is that size but from what I understand Shields tend to throttle a lot, which is not possible for a Switch device.

And that doesn't get into the issues of chip yields if you're designing a device specifically to operate at this higher clock rate. It just seems like a fair amount of work for extremely modest gains.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
I know it's possible, my point is that when they're designing this hypothetical console it would need adequate cooling to be able to hit these clocks. If they want to make something the size of the Switch then that should be doable, but if they want to make something the size of an Amazon fire stick for instance I don't think that would be possible at the clocks we're talking about. And yes, I know there's currently a Shield TV which is that size but from what I understand Shields tend to throttle a lot, which is not possible for a Switch device.

And that doesn't get into the issues of chip yields if you're designing a device specifically to operate at this higher clock rate. It just seems like a fair amount of work for extremely modest gains.
We know the 20nm Tegra chips throttled, but I haven't heard of these Tegra x1+ chips throttling, but even the shield tv tube is much bigger than a fire stick, a fire stick Tegra X1+ would probably hit switch lite speeds and that's it.

So yeah I agree with you, just pointing out that the new Switch model can clock much higher and a console version of the Switch can do the same. I really think there is a lot to gain out of a 600gflops switch and adding an internal scaler for 1080p would resolve a lot of issues with the current games
 

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
So what are the chances of Nvidia and Nintendo taking the Mariko chip down to 8 or 7nm and announce a refresh for the complete Switch line up? How much more performance could they squeeze out of Mariko and would it be possible to get twice the performance at a similar power draw? Can they get a sustained 1.5-1.8ghz cpu in both hh and docked with say 850 gflop gpu performance?

I'm thinking along the lines of when they did the New 3ds, New 3ds XL, New 2ds and New 2ds XL...
Also could a new revision of Mariko be modified with more gpu cores also for a Pro model to obtain double the gpu performance of the numbers above?

My thinking is them trying to get everything out of the current SoC set-up in order to wait until 2023 or 2024 for a much better designed Switch 2 chip. Also the new revisions would raise the base model Switch specs enough to put it much closer to Xbox One specs...
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,708
I don't even think we'll actually get a Switch Pro or New Switch or whatever the half-step more powerful Switch will be called.

I think Nintendo will go straight to Switch 2: Judgement Day.

Nintendo has done a "half-step more powerful" upgrade for every portable system they've ever made except the GBA, which was only on the market for three years before its successor came out. And half-step upgrades have only become more common throughout the gaming landscape this generation, with every hardware vendor releasing one.

I don't think I'd bet against a "New Nintendo Switch."