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ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
User Banned (1 Week) - Hostility toward other members; Downplaying Abuse
Because there's also a skip cutscene feature that is free and you still blame the game just for its existence. Also...if you have HW expansion, there are new jobs that starts at 30. And SB's jobs starts at 50 while Shb job starts at 60.

And this crusade of yours to scare off people from playing this game is grating.
Again why are you saying skip cutscene when ARR still sucks outside of cutscenes. Nobody is defending ARR here lol, my whole criticism is that it's mandatory and so far the only defense has been "well either grind through it or pay extra". Those are both horrible solutions and it's on SE to offer something better than that. 5.3 was their shot and they blew it (don't get me wrong, it was somehow a lot worse before but it's still not good).

People should know that they're in for a shitty experience. And again, sorry that I don't think that experience justifies the expansions. But no other game would ask so much of you. Just because you got stockholm syndrome from ARR doesn't mean others will.

Then that is a you problem. You obviously just don't like the MMO structure and that is fine but that doesn't mean the game is bad.

Fetch quests, grinding and boring repetitive quests happen in MMOs. WoW has the same content because these games are meant to follow a progression path for levelling and reaching the end.

None of this has any bearing on the writing, music and battle system.

Comparing this to a standard JRPG makes no sense because again this is an MMO. It's common sense that things will work differently from a solo RPG. The content will always be longer and the experience won't be for everyone.

No one is forcing you or anyone to play an MMO. If you dislike how they work then it's not for you. This doesn't mean you get to dismiss an entire MMOs praise and positive reception.
How is it a me problem? XIV is a mainline Final Fantasy game. It can absolutely get compared to the experiences offered by the other FF games. Hell, the main thing that people say is that you can treat it like a single player JRPG outside of dungeons but apparently when it's criticized as if it were like any other FF game that isn't fair because it's an MMO? The writing sucks in ARR which you admit, the battle system isn't fully developed until post ARR so that doesn't have any bearing on my criticisms of ARR. Also "the game is an MMO, it's supposed to be a boring repetitive slog" isn't a good defense.

And you're right, nobody forced me to play it. But I did play it, and as a result you can't say my criticism isn't valid.
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,070
I would've gone further but playing with randoms in the dungeons stressed me out. I tried to be a healer for a bit and it didn't end well lol. Did they ever make it all solo-able or is it just the newer stuff?
The newest expansion did make all new dungeons soloable but I don't think the system has been added to older content yet.

Healing can definitely be stressful and is not the job I would recommend starting with unless you're playing with a group of friends. Both Tanking and Healing can be quite scary as a new player. If you're able to get past some impatient people then by all means play both classes!

ARR is the weakest expansion in terms of story and content so you're definitely missing out by not playing HW and SHB.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,858
This turned into a another thread about arguing if ARR is good or not. Maybe it's cause I started the game in the launch window of ARR(on ps3 at that) I never found my time playing through to be a slog and the story was enjoyable. They only problem I can can see going back to do those parts of the game is the sever lack of skills since so many of the abilities back then have been removed which made later levels better.
Yeah I feel like this is the real issue, it just feels so bad to play most classes before level 50 now because you have so few skills.
 

Yeul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
203
I won't defend that part of it yeah. The pacing is lax until you reach Coerthas and the main meat of the plot kicks in around level 37ish, and in the patch content between you'll feel sluggish if you aren't vested in what's going on around Eorzea. I guess it's where the MMO vs standard RPG break becomes apparent. I think I'll give ARR a replay sometime to see how my memories hold up.

The abrupt (albeit 100% better) Alphinaud voice change is a good cue that I'm in the clear lol
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
Ivalice, God damn you !!!

we-have-to-go-back-jack-lost.gif

Damn right, I loved Final Fantasy Tactics Advance
 

Zen Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,628
I don't think ARR's quality is relevant to FF16 at all. Obviously the team has learned a lot since then and FF16 will likely follow the quality of their recent output, not ARR.

FF14 team really excels at player-friendly design, focusing on what's fun for players above all else. They're also great at telling epic stories with lots of characters and capturing a variety of moods from adventure to politics to humor. I definitely have confidence in them to make a great FF16.
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,766
Only Shadowbringers on is solo able for dungeons. Trials always require multiplayer. Also I don't heal either cause that's a stressful job lol.
It's just Shadowbringers where you can solo a dungeon with NPCs. Healing can be stressful yeah. Go with a DPS job and you'll have an easier time (albeit longer queue times).
The newest expansion did make all new dungeons soloable but I don't think the system has been added to older content yet.

Healing can definitely be stressful and is not the job I would recommend starting with unless you're playing with a group of friends. Both Tanking and Healing can be quite scary as a new player. If you're able to get past some impatient people then by all means play both classes!

ARR is the weakest expansion in terms of story and content so you're definitely missing out by not playing HW and SHB.

Thanks y'all! I figured that was the case. I started out all idealistic, thinking I could heal the world and help people, but I took on more than I could chew and the world spit me back out. Anyway, I've always meant to try it out again since I bought Heavensward a long time ago, but there are just so many games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
32,274
Atlanta GA
I don't think ARR's quality is relevant to FF16 at all. Obviously the team has learned a lot since then and FF16 will likely follow the quality of their recent output, not ARR.

FF14 team really excels at player-friendly design, focusing on what's fun for players above all else. They're also great at telling epic stories with lots of characters and capturing a variety of moods from adventure to politics to humor. I definitely have confidence in them to make a great FF16.

they're gonna take what they learned with FFXIV and apply it to a single player remake of FFXI

nah i doubt it but i can dream....
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,070
How is it a me problem? XIV is a mainline Final Fantasy game. It can absolutely get compared to the experiences offered by the other FF games.
No it absolutely can't and anyone seriously trying to(I don't care if people on this forum do it so they can say it's better than the rest of the series) is wrong. Being listed as a mainline does not suddenly make an MMO comparable to solo RPG experiences. They are so completely different in structure and content that the comparison is insane.

The only rational comparison anyone can even make is with the individual expansions and even that is limited to writing, gameplay and music. You cannot ignore the fact that these games are a specific type of experience and will not be for everyone. This does not mean the game isn't quality because someone couldn't handle the structure.

And guess what? The excitement for a mainline directored by XIV developers is for the WRITING, MUSIC AND STYLE. No one is hoping for XVI to be exactly like XIV.

Hell, the main thing that people say is that you can treat it like a single player JRPG outside of dungeons but apparently when it's criticized as if it were like any other FF game that isn't fair because it's an MMO? The writing sucks in ARR which you admit, the battle system isn't fully developed until post ARR so that doesn't have any bearing on my criticisms of ARR. Also "the game is an MMO, it's supposed to be a boring repetitive slog" isn't a good defense.
The only reason anyone would make that comparison is to help ease new players scared of making the dive into an MMO. There is soloable content in XIV but it's still an online interactive game that will force playing with other people.

Expecting quests to all be unique and interesting for a large open world multiplayer game is ridiculous. There is a reason fetch quests and repetitive exp grinds are common. It's simple and easy ways to get experience so that players can move past these parts into more interesting content.

Plenty of solo JRPG's can't even do decent sidequests but the MMO with a progression system is expected to do everything perfectly? Okay.

And you're right, nobody forced me to play it. But I did play it, and as a result you can't say my criticism isn't valid.
I can say it's not valid because you've only played part of one expansion and used it to criticize an entire game. Play the entire game and then you can have a conversation about writing and gameplay.

Thanks y'all! I figured that was the case. I started out all idealistic, thinking I could heal the world and help people, but I took on more than I could chew and the world spit me back out. Anyway, I've always meant to try it out again since I bought Heavensward a long time ago, but there are just so many games.
I don't know what server you started on but plenty of people on ERA play on Ultros so if you're able to come over to it! There is an ERA guild and I'm sure they will be more than happy to help with content. I can also lend a hand if you ever need help!
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,647
No it absolutely can't and anyone seriously trying to(I don't care if people on this forum do it so they can say it's better than the rest of the series) is wrong. Being listed as a mainline does not suddenly make an MMO comparable to solo RPG experiences. They are so completely different in structure and content that the comparison is insane.

The only rational comparison anyone can even make is with the individual expansions and even that is limited to writing, gameplay and music. You cannot ignore the fact that these games are a specific type of experience and will not be for everyone. This does not mean the game isn't quality because someone couldn't handle the structure.


The only reason anyone would make that comparison is to help ease new players scared of making the dive into an MMO. There is soloable content in XIV but it's still an online interactive game that will force playing with other people.

Expecting quests to all be unique and interesting for a large open world multiplayer game is ridiculous. There is a reason fetch quests and repetitive exp grinds are common. It's simple and easy ways to get experience so that players can move past these parts into more interesting content.

Plenty of solo JRPG's can't even do decent sidequests but the MMO with a progression system is expected to do everything perfectly? Okay.


I can say it's not valid because you've only played part of one expansion and used it to criticize an entire game. Play the entire game and then you can have a conversation about writing and gameplay.
You can easily compare a game like Final Fantasy 6 though to Final Fantasy 15 despite being incredibly different. It's a mainline game in the Final Fantasy series.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
Thanks y'all! I figured that was the case. I started out all idealistic, thinking I could heal the world and help people, but I took on more than I could chew and the world spit me back out. Anyway, I've always meant to try it out again since I bought Heavensward a long time ago, but there are just so many games.
kze6q51ljju31.jpg
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,070
As a newbie healer playing a Lv58 Scholar, I love this so much haha. My friend sent me a similar meme when I was starting out:
lmao it's very true. I don't heal in XIV but I do in WoW and sometimes it's just a mess with how careless groups are because they just expect healer to do everything.

You can easily compare a game like Final Fantasy 6 though to Final Fantasy 15 despite being incredibly different. It's a mainline game in the Final Fantasy series.
No. Final Fantasy 1-15(excluding XI and XIV) are all still designed as single player JRPG experiences. Not only that but majority of the Final Fantasy games are still very similar in a lot of ways and are far more comparable in writing and direction.

Trying to compare those to a game that has three expansions, multiplayer only, hundreds of hours of content that is able to be continously added on due it being an MMO and completely different gameplay structure since it's designed around class roles and multiplayer is so ridiculous. The comparison literally benefits nobody and I'm a massive XIV fan.
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,647
lmao it's very true. I don't heal in XIV but I do in WoW and sometimes it's just a mess with how careless groups are because they just expect healer to do everything.


No. Final Fantasy 1-15(excluding XI and XIV) are all still designed as single player JRPG experiences. Not only that but majority of the Final Fantasy games are still very similar in a lot of ways and are far more comparable in writing and direction.

Trying to compare those to a game that has three expansions, multiplayer only, hundreds of hours of content that is able to be continously added on due it being an MMO and completely different gameplay structure since it's designed around class roles and multiplayer is so ridiculous. The comparison literally benefits nobody and I'm a massive XIV fan.
You can compare the overall music, story, environmental design etc. The player experience might be different but going from a top down 8-bit turn based game is a massive leap to a later entry. Hell its easier to compare the combat in 14 to 12 moreso than a game like 7.
 

Makoto Yuki

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,397

Retail, haven't played classic since Nostalrius was shut down.

The only thing that would get me more excited after FFXVI and FFVIIR-Part II would be an episodic style remake of VIII and IX. Loved the Remaster of VIII. Just wish IX's PS4 version was more like VII and VIII.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Frankly, who cares if ARR is garbage? That game was made in 2013. Shadowbringers was made in 2018, and it was spectacular. Literally NO ONE says otherwise. That's the team that would be making this game.

Turns out, people get better at their crafts over time. Who knew?
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
No it absolutely can't and anyone seriously trying to(I don't care if people on this forum do it so they can say it's better than the rest of the series) is wrong. Being listed as a mainline does not suddenly make an MMO comparable to solo RPG experiences. They are so completely different in structure and content that the comparison is insane.

The only rational comparison anyone can even make is with the individual expansions and even that is limited to writing, gameplay and music. You cannot ignore the fact that these games are a specific type of experience and will not be for everyone. This does not mean the game isn't quality because someone couldn't handle the structure.

And guess what? The excitement for a mainline directored by XIV developers is for the WRITING, MUSIC AND STYLE. No one is hoping for XVI to be exactly like XIV.
I mean I appreciate that you're saying that it is radically different, because I do agree, but the whole being comparable to other titles in the series thing is very much a common line of thinking. And it is in the same series. It's a mainline game. It has to share some appeal or audience with the other titles otherwise it shouldn't have the FF name (and I'm not arguing that btw). Like if it's a Final Fantasy game - where there's massive storytelling, aesthetic, musical, visual, gameplay differences - it should definitely be treated as such.

At least in my experience, other than duties I never interacted with another player (ironically probably when the game was at it's best). It was mostly just teleporting from person to person with the occasional fight, like a very poor single player JRPG. I was also surprised that you can't even do MSQ missions with a friend, because I would have enjoyed if we could've made progress at the same time.

Also regarding the single player thing...

Because 14 is one of, if not THE best Final Fantasy games. It's legit a single player game and it's amazing lol.
People can't stop saying it. It seems to be the prevailing opinion.

Expecting quests to all be unique and interesting for a large open world multiplayer game is ridiculous. There is a reason fetch quests and repetitive exp grinds are common. It's simple and easy ways to get experience so that players can move past these parts into more interesting content.

Plenty of solo JRPG's can't even do decent sidequests but the MMO with a progression system is expected to do everything perfectly? Okay.
But I got the experience of doing those things in the first hour. Why am I still doing them 30 hours later lol.

What do you mean do things perfectly? I'm just saying do things that don't suck. Again, nobody is really saying this ARR content is great.

I can say it's not valid because you've only played part of one expansion and used it to criticize an entire game. Play the entire game and then you can have a conversation about writing and gameplay.
I mean it's the same as the "reviewers need to finish games" take. I don't really agree. I put in a good amount of time. I did my 30 hours and then my sub ran out so I can't play anymore. And I mean that's kind of the crux of my argument: no game is good enough to justify spending that much time on before it's decent, no matter how incredible whatever comes after it is. The game should be compelling in writing, gameplay and cutscene direction before then. I like the music FWIW. I think that Civilizations is probably the best track from any FF game in a decade, maybe more, and I still haven't heard most of the XIV stuff.
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,652
Frankly, who cares if ARR is garbage? That game was made in 2013. Shadowbringers was made in 2018, and it was spectacular. Literally NO ONE says otherwise. That's the team that would be making this game.

Turns out, people get better at their crafts over time. Who knew?

And as an MMO that was assembled in three years while the team also maintained and improved 1.0, it's better than it has any right to be, tbh.

It might have been closer to "solid" than "spectacular" but it gave them a good foundation on which to build. And what's come since has been fantastic.
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,070
You can compare the overall music, story, environmental design etc. The player experience might be different but going from a top down 8-bit turn based game is a massive leap to a later entry. Hell its easier to compare the combat in 14 to 12 moreso than a game like 7.
Yes but you are limiting the comparison choices and that is because the design and experience is far too different between an MMO and single player game.

This is why I said comparing individual expansions is more logical(even if I still think the comparison should be limited to writing, music and art design) because it's focused on specific characters, story and locations. Once you start comparing the entire game to the rest of the series then it makes no sense and looks bad. You can't compare an entire MMOs run, which is frequently updated and given new content to single player games that are made and generally left as is.
Retail, haven't played classic since Nostalrius was shut down.

The only thing that would get me more excited after FFXVI and FFVIIR-Part II would be an episodic style remake of VIII and IX. Loved the Remaster of VIII. Just wish IX's PS4 version was more like VII and VIII.
Same!

I'm kind of stuck between just wanting an VIII remake with the ps2 tech demo style(but obviously wayyyy more cleaned up to meet modern graphics standards) with some new story content to expand on some parts that is finished in one game or the VII style remake with episodes. I think VIII gets luckier on pacing in that it has more room to expand on really fun and interesting concepts while also pushing the story forward to new and interesting areas much quicker than VII with Midgar.
 

LordBaztion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
Lima Perú
We are 5 months away from the expiration of the exclusivity of FF7R. I hope this one doesn't have exclusivity or, if it has, to not be as long.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,734
We've had a decade of the same stuff over and over, and at the first chance for something brand new, people are screaming for..... more Ivalice... please god no, lol.

Hoping for something brand new with no connection to anything they've released.

Also sorry to kick the FFXIV hornet's nest, but isn't the woman who was put in charge of the later FFXIV expansions (which apparently have the amazing storytelling) not involved with FFXVI at all? Do we know who's rumored to be in charge of the story elements?
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,872
We've had a decade of the same stuff over and over, and at the first chance for something brand new, people are screaming for..... more Ivalice... please god no, lol.

Hoping for something brand new with no connection to anything they've released.

Also sorry to kick the FFXIV hornet's nest, but isn't the woman who was put in charge of the later FFXIV expansions (which apparently have the amazing storytelling) not involved with FFXVI at all? Do we know who's rumored to be in charge of the story elements?

Natsuko Ishikawa is likely to stay on FFXIV as the lead writer. She wasn't a major part of Heavensward which still has great writing.
 

Xenosaga

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,976
ARR is trash. But I heard the expansions were much better.
The ARR 2.0 at the time of release was just so fucking terrible game.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
ARR isn't even that bad. /shrug

Yeah, I'm a firm believer of the later stuff only standing as strong as it does because ARR set everything up. The impact of the expansions wouldn't hit as strong if you didn't start out as a little goober running around forests killing Level 1 killer ladybugs.

Like, ARR isn't a stellar RPG by any means, but I'd still say it's good with some moments of greatness peppered throughout. The worldbuilding all gets its start there, as do 80% of the recurring cast.
 
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