Rttp: In Stargate Atlantis the Stargate team were the villains and committed crimes against everyone

[Wag]

Fucking Stargate people occupying Atlantis are the worst. First they go and prematurely wake the Wraith, causing an all out feeding frenzy on the humans of the Pegasus Galaxy, then, when held to account for it by other humans like the Genii they act all high and mighty about it, like it's not their fault- the Wraith were going to awake eventually anyways, finally supporting a coup that toples the legitimate ruling Genii government.

All cute and cuddly Doctor Beckett is the worst of them, a literal Dr. Joeseph Goebbels, he comes up with a plan to commit genocide on the Wraith by converting them into Humans against their will, erasing their memories in the process then lying to them about it, not caring if they either get fed upon by other Wraith or just dying in the conversion process.

What in the actual fuck? These are the people who are the second coming of the Ancients who are supposed to "Ascend"?

I haven't even got to the part with the Replicators yet. lol

 

[Deleted member 7051]

It's an American TV show that's heavily pro-military and came out in the early 2000s. What did you expect, nuance? 😂

 

[jelly]

I vaguely remember this, how did it end, they went time travelling or stasis for years .

 

[PlanetSmasher]

All cute and cuddly Doctor Beckett is the worst of them, a literal Dr. Joeseph Goebbels, he comes up with a plan to commit genocide on the Wraith by converting them into Humans against their will, erasing their memories in the process then lying to them about it, not caring if they either get fed upon by other Wraith or just dying in the conversion process.

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It's not like the Wraith had any interest in diplomacy.

 

[KadeYuy]

 

[Aztechnology]

So converting mass murderers in this context is a villainous act? I mean I guess I can see it, but the it's the best of a bad choice/situation no?

Is killing them straight out better? I can't answer that. I don't really remember it that well, but I remember the wraith not exactly being someone you could use diplomacy with.

 

[Wag]

It's not like the Wraith had any interest in diplomacy.

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You realize I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here but let's take the argument to it's logical conclusion:

Should that matter to someone who took the Hippocratic Oath? Even then, eventually they're being turned into human and being lied to and essentially held prisoners.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Remember in the other Stargate series, for comparison, everyone got their own Dom DeLuise?

Shanking golfballs into the stargate, learning to juggle... good times.

 

[Nostremitus]

You realize I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here but let's take the argument to it's logical conclusion:

Should that matter to someone who took the Hippocratic Oath? Even then, eventually they're being turned into human and being lied to and essentially held prisoners.

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I was under the impression that being Wraith was a disease the people were infected with that completely altered their free will and cognitive processes... It's like curing Clickers in Last of Us... .if the clickers were mind controlled by a hive queen.

 

[W-00]

I haven't even got to the part with the Replicators yet. lol

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It's a pity that you haven't, because that's where you'd actually have a strong argument. Those people weren't even Replicators; they were an entirely separate strain of nanite-based life who the team felt free to simply do whatever-the-fuck they wanted to do to them just because they weren't made of meat. The Wraith, other than maybe Michael (I'll be honest, I fell asleep during a lot of the later Atlantis episodes, so I'm unclear about all his details), were no more interested in talking things out with us than we are with cows.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

I vaguely remember this, how did it end, they went time travelling or stasis for years .

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That was Stargate Universe.

 

[Wag]

It's a pity that you haven't, because that's where you'd actually have a strong argument. Those people weren't even Replicators; they were an entirely separate strain of nanite-based life who the team felt free to simply do whatever-the-fuck they wanted to do to them just because they weren't made of meat. The Wraith, other than maybe Michael (I'll be honest, I fell asleep during a lot of the later Atlantis episodes, so I'm unclear about all his details), were no more interested in talking things out with us than we are with cows.

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Yes, I know- that's why I said that. :p

But as the previous poster stipulated, Dr. Beckett saw being "Wraith" equivalent to having a disease, and altering their DNA (unwillingly) was "curing" them. But he really didn't give two shits about telling them about it after, or even taking care of them long-term (other than to make sure they didn't turn back into Wraith again).

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Isn't Stargate basically pro-Republican?

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Isn't Stargate basically pro-Republican?

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Ehhhh...I mean it's a show about the US military. So it's not exactly gonna be super-duper-liberal. But SG-1 is at least intended to be good people.

 

[anamika]

Isn't this what happens in all the Stargate shows? The SG-1 team goes to some planet, messes things up for them, steal techology from them, kill them, engage in war, take sides in civil war etc. They destroy entire settlements on their adventures sometimes.

Fucking Stargate people occupying Atlantis are the worst.

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I think Rodney Mckay destroys an entire planet once.

 

[Pandaman]

Isn't this what happens in all the Stargate shows? The SG-1 team goes to some planet, messes things up for them, steal techology from them, kill them, engage in war, take sides in civil war etc. They destroy entire settlements on their adventures sometimes.

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Not really? of all those things they mostly just mess things up for people by breaking the mcguffin or unintentionally revealing something to be wrong. when there are episodes touching on any of those things, they make no secret of what the wrong thing to do is.

 

[Mesoian]

I think Rodney Mckay destroys an entire planet once.

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It happens. Sam destroys 3 and an entire solar system.

 

[Aztechnology]

Isn't this what happens in all the Stargate shows? The SG-1 team goes to some planet, messes things up for them, steal techology from them, kill them, engage in war, take sides in civil war etc. They destroy entire settlements on their adventures sometimes.


I think Rodney Mckay destroys an entire planet once.

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Is that the one where he gets trapped in a defense shield of whatever? I remember that and barely anything else about Atlantis lol

 

[Mesoian]

Isn't this what happens in all the Stargate shows? The SG-1 team goes to some planet, messes things up for them, steal techology from them, kill them, engage in war, take sides in civil war etc. They destroy entire settlements on their adventures sometimes.

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Naw, most of the adventures are pretty innocuous. When shit gets really fucked up, it's usually other branches of the military that are responsible and SG1 is cleaning up after them. The show starts off very HOO RAH, but after the 5th season, it's got a pretty negative mindset on the existing status of the US military and it quickly obtains a "who watches the watchmen" vibe when it comes to matters of intergalactic security.

It's amazing how terrible the final season of atlantis was. I had forgotten

 

[jdstorm]

Isn't this what happens in all the Stargate shows? The SG-1 team goes to some planet, messes things up for them, steal techology from them, kill them, engage in war, take sides in civil war etc. They destroy entire settlements on their adventures sometimes.


I think Rodney Mckay destroys an entire planet once.

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more like an entire solar system. (S3 episode Trinity)

in general I liked Atlantis more than SG1 but yeah they messed up a lot.

 

[monketron]

God I miss both SG-1 and Atlantis (that's the only SG shows they made, ok). I felt SG-1 was just getting back into its stride after the cast shake up when they cancelled it too.

 

[anamika]

Is that the one where he gets trapped in a defense shield of whatever? I remember that and barely anything else about Atlantis lol

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Oh man I don't remember - I only watched it when it first aired. I recall Mckay and Sheppard being trapped somewhere and he had to destroy a solar system (Thanks jdstorm ) to escape lol! Looks like a season 3 episode

more like an entire solar system. (S3 episode Trinity)

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Naw, most of the adventures are pretty innocuous. When shit gets really fucked up, it's usually other branches of the military that are responsible and SG1 is cleaning up after them. The show starts off very HOO RAH, but after the 5th season, it's got a pretty negative mindset on the existing status of the US military and it quickly obtains a "who watches the watchmen" vibe when it comes to matters of intergalactic security.

It's amazing how terrible the final season of atlantis was. I had forgotten

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Right, so again, I watched it years back, but the basic premise of the team was that they had to go to other worlds and get technology for the US army against the Russians. So pretty much the first thing the SG-1 team would try to do in each episode is try to get that technology and they would mess things up for the planet in this quest. And a lot of the time, the enemy - usually the Go'uald would attack and the team would help the people and end of story. Like the episode with the Nox.

But I do agree that towards the end there was some kind of introspection on this kind of thing. I remember an episode where O'Neill makes a deal for some fusion technology with a group of people engaged in white supremacy and genocide and he and Daniel go back and forth on this and he comes around in the end and sides with the victims.

 

[Borman]

At least they briefly address this in the show.

 

[onyx]

Meh, they weren't that bad. Awakening the Wraith and turning on the kill code for the Replicators were their biggest screw ups. The Replicators were destroyed and the Wraith were in decline for the first time.

The Genii caused their own problems.

 

[Mesoian]

Oh man I don't remember - I only watched it when it first aired. I recall Mckay and Sheppard being trapped somewhere and he had to destroy a solar system (Thanks jdstorm ) to escape lol! Looks like a season 3 episode


Right, so again, I watched it years back, but the basic premise of the team was that they had to go to other worlds and get technology for the US army against the Russians. So pretty much the first thing the SG-1 team would try to do in each episode is try to get that technology and they would mess things up for the planet in this quest. And a lot of the time, the enemy - usually the Go'uald would attack and the team would help the people and end of story. Like the episode with the Nox.

But I do agree that towards the end there was some kind of introspection on this kind of thing. I remember an episode where O'Neill makes a deal for some fusion technology with a group of people engaged in white supremacy and genocide and he and Daniel go back and forth on this and he comes around in the end and sides with the victims.

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Yeah, it's when the diplomatic and humanitarian efforts of SG1 don't move fast enough for the rest of the military do things get fucked up and then they have to fix it, like with the weather device that the NID steals or when Hammond is replaced with a brown nosing general who can't handle the pressure of being on the front line of a galactic war.

SG1 is some damn good scifi.

 

[Slayven]

Both stargates had radical character arcs caused by contract negotiations.

 

[Wag]

Both stargates had radical character arcs caused by contract negotiations.

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Hah. Well, if "Ascending" Daniel was the studio's idea of "negotiations", how do I get fired from life?

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

Remember when they were put on trial for their crimes during the expedition and Robert Picardo's character won the trial by bribing one of them.

 

[Wrexis]

Right, so again, I watched it years back, but the basic premise of the team was that they had to go to other worlds and get technology for the US army against the Russians.

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To be fair, it wasn't the Russians. It was because of the Goa'uld in the first episode reaching Earth. Earth needed technology to defend itself.
The Russians didn't do gate travel until Seasons 4 or 5.

Agreed though there was a U.S vs Russia vibe in many episodes later on in the series.

 

[Tacitus]

more like an entire solar system. (S3 episode Trinity)

in general I liked Atlantis more than SG1 but yeah they messed up a lot.

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It's not an exact science

 

[jdstorm]

It's not an exact science

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Oh Meredith what did you do now

 

[Pandaman]

Right, so again, I watched it years back, but the basic premise of the team was that they had to go to other worlds and get technology for the US army against the Russians. So pretty much the first thing the SG-1 team would try to do in each episode is try to get that technology and they would mess things up for the planet in this quest. And a lot of the time, the enemy - usually the Go'uald would attack and the team would help the people and end of story. Like the episode with the Nox.

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Yeah, your memory is playing tricks on you. The Russians were 'allies' for the extent of SG-1. In the Nox episode SG-1 was trying to catch a bird they thought could turn invisible and by chance ran into Apophis who was doing the same, they're all killed and then the Nox save them because it turns out they're secretly super advanced aliens who just like the anprim lifestyle.

 

[Amnesty]

Isn't Stargate basically pro-Republican?

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One of the main villains of the series is a (likely) republican senator.

It was more that Stargate was taking the view that the military is a somewhat honourable institution, or at least that there are some people there who are. The SGC often found itself at odds with the interests of other parts of the military and government over doing the right thing.

Then there's Daniel Jackson who is basically the 'I'm not actually under your command and you need me to help you translate everything so you can't get rid of me, etc' who was the one always getting into conflict with them over the decisions made in military interest.

In many instances during the series, the hardline military interest decisions came back to bite them and cause consequences. I remember one episode where Genral Hammond got replaced and the new general was like 'Hey Carter, build a super nuke out of this new tech and we're going to test it out on this other planet' and then it backfired horribly and somehow got into the wormhole and was going to blow up all of Colorado or something.

Also, with the wraith to human thing in the OP - they originally experimented on one wraith to turn him into a human that they could adapt into being a 'regular' human, but it backfired and he remembered what he was and left. They then started thinking strategically with this bio-tech, because the wraith couldn't really be reasoned with.

It did make the wraith a little boring over time, that they were too driven by their biological hunger. So it would've been interesting if the series had continued and perhaps they could have changed the wraith to have some factions departing from that need and trying to alter their civilization into something less dependent on killing other sentient life.

But I do agree that towards the end there was some kind of introspection on this kind of thing. I remember an episode where O'Neill makes a deal for some fusion technology with a group of people engaged in white supremacy and genocide and he and Daniel go back and forth on this and he comes around in the end and sides with the victims.

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They didn't know at first where those people stood as they only made vague allusions about their enemy, then based on how they were treating Teal'c and other hints O'Neill put it together and was like 'fuck em' once their enemy was at the gates. Daniel's position throughout and before they really knew was 'do we know enough about their situation to be making deals with them?' At that point O'Neill wasn't having it because they needed all they could get to fight the Goauld.

 

[Haubergeon]

A lot of people like to have really hot takes about how SG-1 is actually incredibly imperialist and pro-military and actually low-key evil but basically every one of those criticisms is arguably much more easily leveled at Atlantis, considering how comically Atlantis just sort of plays around with virtually everything they come across like it's a toy and causes horrific consequences nearly every single time. In contrast SG-1 is at least on balance is much more reserved, and SG-1 themselves basically find themselves constantly at odds with the American political establishment and the rest of the military/intelligence complex. A fictional CIA stand-in is basically a recurring antagonist and almost every time the military outside of Hammond/Landry insert themselves into their affairs SG-1 is staunchly opposed and it usually only causes problems.

SG-1 trying to acquire advanced technology but some part of the plan always going wrong because the people they were in contact with turning out to be hideously evil (like the aforementioned white supremacist planet episode) and deciding they couldn't morally justify doing so happens so often it basically becomes a running gag.

Atlantis however puts Captain Janeway's controversial decisions to shame.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

One of the main villains of the series is a (likely) republican senator.

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This is actually kinda debated. Senator Kinsey is supposed to be from the same party as the fictional president, Henry Hayes. But Hayes doesn't seem very republican, he put a civilian in charge of the SG-C and he was shown to be kinda uncomfortable around the military at first when he took office.

 

[Haubergeon]

This is actually kinda debated. Senator Kinsey is supposed to be from the same party as the fictional president, Henry Hayes. But Hayes doesn't seem very republican, and was even shown to be kinda uncomfortable around the military at first when he took office.

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It's unclear what party Kinsey comes from considering a lot of other cultural references being made toward who was in power at the time, but regardless his characterization is fairly conservative.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

It's unclear what party Kinsey comes from considering a lot of other cultural references being made toward who was in power at the time, but regardless his characterization is fairly conservative.

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Hayes also put a civilian in charge of the SG-C

 

[Haubergeon]

Hayes also put a civilian in charge of the SG-C

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I believe at one point Jackson mentions he voted for Hayes as well, so it's pretty unlikely he's a Republican IMO.

(I think I'm totally misremembering - I believe this reference came years earlier.)

 

[Pandaman]

This is actually kinda debated. Senator Kinsey is supposed to be from the same party as the fictional president, Henry Hayes. But Hayes doesn't seem very republican, he put a civilian in charge of the SG-C and he was shown to be kinda uncomfortable around the military at first when he took office.

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Vice president Kinsey, so definitely from the same party.

 

[Amnesty]

Kinsey is pretty much evangelical and always on about God, which is more often associated with Republicans. Was Hayes the same party though? I remember he chose Kinsey as his running mate for 'political reasons' or something vague like that, so it could've been some reaching across the aisle kind of thing. Though, if Hayes was republican, I can see the writers of that era thinking that it was possible to have a republican 'lite' or something.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Hayes only put a civilian in charge because of outside pressure and that he was supportive of Hammond and his team because he was old friends with him due to serving together in the Air Force.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Kinsey is pretty much evangelical and always on about God, which is more often associated with Republicans. Was Hayes the same party though? I remember he chose Kinsey as his running mate for 'political reasons' or something vague like that, so it could've been some reaching across the aisle kind of thing. Though, if Hayes was republican, I can see the writers of that era thinking that it was possible to have a republican 'lite' or something.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Hayes only put a civilian in charge because of outside pressure and that he was supportive of Hammond and his team because he was old friends with him due to serving together in the Air Force.

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The way I see it, Hayes is "coded" Democrat and Kinsey is "coded" Republican, but the writers purposely kept things vague and also don't bother explaining over how a Democrat and Republican could possibly be on the same ticket.

 

[Amnesty]

The way I see it, Hayes is "coded" Democrat and Kinsey is "coded" Republican, but the writers purposely kept things vague and also don't bother explaining over how a Democrat and Republican could possibly be on the same ticket.

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Yeah, it's the kind of thing that actually would require more open storytelling because a Dem and Republican on the same ticket would be a huge political event and not something to gloss over. Or at least mention through some of the background machinations that they needed to bring Kinsey on the ticket because of him threatening to expose the secrets or something.