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What is your favorite RPG progression system?

  • Traditional (JRPG): let me grind up to level 100 and destroy everything in front of me

    Votes: 310 41.8%
  • Learn by doing (Elder Scrolls): gain experience in specific skills by doing them

    Votes: 117 15.8%
  • Loot-only (Monster Hunter): no leveling up, it's all about getting more powerful gear

    Votes: 20 2.7%
  • Levels + skill (Dark Souls): leveling up can make your life easier, but you can still beat any enemy

    Votes: 251 33.9%
  • Level scaling (Assassin's Creed): let me level up, but level the world up around me as well

    Votes: 11 1.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 32 4.3%

  • Total voters
    741

Arithmetician

Member
Oct 9, 2019
1,985
EDIT: to be clear, I either like or love all of these games, and many other RPGs. Look at my avatar. This post is not about banning Final Fantasy - it's about a small change to it's game design that I think would make the game much more rewarding. And it's tongue-in-cheek! My apologies to those I've offended; in all likelihood, we like the same games : )

I know I sound crazy, but hear me out.

I have nothing against RPGs. I have played and loved many different RPGs over the course my life. Some of my best friends are RPGs.

However, for every RPG i have played over the course of my life, I have liked it not *because* it was an RPG, but *despite* it being an RPG. I love the stories, characters, art direction, exploration, meaningful choices, customization, and combat systems that games in the genre offer. I love the sense of exploring a living, breathing foreign world, with its own history, rules, and personalities.

But in order to experience all those elements, I have to tolerate the boredom and the ludonarrative dissonance that comes with the awful idea that there will be certain enemies I cannot defeat, not because my reflexes aren't sharp enough, nor because my battle strategy is substandard, but because my *level* is not high enough. There's nothing more disappointing, more immersion-breaking, than being faced with an enemy that's level 20, and you *know* you're skilled enough to beat it or at least try, but you can't just yet because you're level 10, so the game requires you to mindlessly defeat dozens of random enemies for minutes (or hours) so you can raise your level and face your enemy.

Is this fun? No. Does it teach the player anything? Also no, in the vast majority of the cases you are not really honing your skills (strategic prowess for turn-based RPGs and dexterity for action RPGs) while leveling up. Does it make sense in-universe? Absolutely not. This tiny rabbit shouldn't ever be more difficult to defeat than that huge dragon, but because of the way games lay out their progression, it frequently ends up being the case that the rabbit might be level 40 so it's much more difficult to defeat than that level 20 dragon you defeated in a boss battle a few hours ago.

Levels are a crutch. They are bad game design. They don't add fun to the game, they are not a test of player skill, and they never make sense in-universe. Yet, so many of the greatest games of today and yesterday insist on basing themselves completely around the idea of defeating enemies, with no challenge, to increase your stats before you can face other enemies. This needs to stop. We need to ban leveling up from games. Let's free RPGs, which are some of the greatest games ever, to become even better by freeing them of the experience points to level up paradigm.

Let's talk examples. The Witcher III. Great video game, one of people's favorite games of this decade. A lot of people criticize the combat in this game – I am one of them – but there's a lot of interesting ideas and a lot of depth. Battles in The Witcher III can be dramatically easier or more difficult depending on the player's choices, both before the battle (what skills you choose, what equipment you wear, what potions and oils you have concocted) and during it (when to use which sign, which potion, when to attack). There's a lot of skill involved in the combat system, and it seems clear to me you could make enemies easier or more difficult to defeat without relying on levels. Would this game be better or worse without levels? Why are random bandits in Skellige impossible to defeat compared to random bandits in Velen? Because I'm "only level 5"? What does that even mean?

Let's look at another much beloved video game, Dark Souls. Dark Souls is much celebrated for its interconnected world, and non-linearity, and rightly so. It feels like a very cohesive world to explore, and it is great that you're allowed to go to areas you're not yet supposed to visit. However, the supposed non-linearity is a little bit of smoke and mirrors. Yes, you can go to the Graveyard when you get to Firelink Shrine, and you can even get a very powerful sword there, but you will struggle to defeat the enemies in that direction if you choose to go there that early as opposed to later in the game. Now, Dark Souls is famous for being tough as nails, so someone might be thinking "git gud". However, there's no "gittin gud" here; the challenge isn't that your reflexes aren't sharp enough to deal with these enemies, but just that you deal too little damage, they have too much HP, and you can't use your very powerful sword because you need to get to a higher level by defeating other random monsters that are on the critical path before the game will allow you to wield your sword. The Taurus Demon may look much more intimidating, but it's actually this random skeleton has almost as much HP and deals almost as much damage as a boss that's 10 times it's size. A beautifully designed world, once again tarnished by the cursed inheritance we've received from Dungeons and Dragons.

EDIT: many people have mentioned you can beat Dark Souls at level 1. I think that's great and more games should be like that. The smaller the difference between level 1 and level 40, the better.

Finally, a classic and one of my favorite games ever, Xenoblade Chronicles. I beat it last night; there are many different builds for each character, and many different combinations of characters to form your party. The game is deep, offers a lot of choice both outside and during battle, and it also requires you to be quick on your feet to make the right decisions at the right time. the final boss battle was great, one of the most epic confrontations I've seen in a video game. I am not going to spoil it here. But it was slightly disappointing for me, because it was actually quite a bit easier than some of the earlier boss battles in the game. It wasn't easier because it required less strategy – on the contrary, the boss had a wide gamut of options at their disposal, and it brought together many different skills from many different enemies from throughout the game. No, it was easier because I was maybe two levels above the "recommended' level, whereas for some of the other bosses I had been two levels behind. Meanwhile, before trying the final boss, who's the *most powerful entity in this universe*, I tried exploring a cave that opened up in the game, but I had to turn away and run immediately, because there were bunnies and bats inside the cave that looked identical to the ones I came across when I started playing this game, except they weren't the same. No, you see, Mr. Rabbit here is *level 90* (not to be confused with his level 10 brother Mr. Drabbit, that's an early game enemy; they look similar but you'll notice the palette swap) so he's much more powerful than that final boss you hear about. There's no way in hell you're strong enough to defeat level 90 Mr. Rabbit if you don't defeat at least 100 level 85 Mr. Nabbits first in order to get stronger.

Hey devs, here's an idea for your RPG you're developing right now. Ditch levels. It's pretty easy, set every player character and enemy to an arbitrary level (say 20), and try balancing your game around that. If you have a turn-based system, or a slower form of combat, you can require more strategy for enemies that are supposed to be more difficult, and less strategy for those that should be easier. If you are developing an action RPG, it's going to be all about tuning the reaction time and the precision each enemy will require of the player. It will require some work to re-balance the game, but perhaps not as much as you think. On the other hand, you will have the opportunity to elevate your game beyond every other RPG out there, and once people try it out, I don't think they will ever want to go back to what things were like before. You could be to RPGs what Mario 64 was to 3D platformers, what Resident Evil 4 was for third-person shooters: a watershed moment.

Abolish levels. For now, I'm going to play The Last of Us part II, feeling happy that whether at the very first enemy or at the final boss, my knife will do the exact same amount of damage – it's all riding on my skill, which is exactly what games should be about. Skill, not leveling up.
 
Last edited:

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,117
caRPb23.gif
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
I agree. Levels need to go, replace it with like a DMC style where you can still unlock skills to open more options to show 'progress' of your character.

Edit: And why am I not surprised. No one bothered to read even one line of the OP lol
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I get it, I think.

RPGs back in the day got away with it because they provided something unique in an age of "run right and shoot the bad guy." What does the modern RPG provide in an age of narrative focus in all genres?
 

Ernest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,493
So.Cal.
Definitely not a fan of "leveling" in games.
Why I like Mario games.
Still, most RPGs are fine. But yeah, would be interesting to see a good RPG without having to level up.
Even Zelda has you leveling up with hearts and whatnot.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,586
Isn't your complaint more or less subverted by speedruns, which can be completed at low levels?
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,002
Sounds like you just don't like RPGs. Which is fine. Just move on.

You're not going to convince anyone to change one of the hallmarks of the entire genre to suit your preferences.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,497
A mountain in the US
But in order to experience all those elements, I have to tolerate the boredom and the ludonarrative dissonance that comes with the awful idea that there will be certain enemies I cannot defeat, not because my reflexes aren't sharp enough, nor because my battle strategy is substandard, but because my *level* is not high enough.
That doesn't sound ludonarratively dissonant at all. In fact, it's more dissonant when people can play NG+ and kick ass at a game because they know how to play when the character is just learning how to fight or something. In a lot of RPGs, you start out as a character who is new to fighting, so it makes sense that you have to become experienced through combat and adventuring so you can kill greater creatures, along with learning different abilities and spells.
 

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
Bad media just isn't allowed to exist I guess?
OP please just play other games
I don't even like most RPGs
 

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
Why does everyone who says "bad game design" usually not know anything about game design
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
It's kind of wild to me that you put this much thought into this but somehow did not realize that the overwhelming majority of RPG fans, y'know, like stats, numbers, levels, and character building.

Your assumption that everyone else hates levels as much as you do is wildly incorrect.
 

Deleted member 30681

user requested account closure
Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,184
I refuse to accept this truth until our lord and savior Kondo descends from heaven and gives us the final entry in the trails series, and finishes his magnum opus.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,871
I like seeing my character get stronger through leveling. Seeing an enemy that was a challenge at a low level fall to my now stronger and more experienced mc.
 

Knight613

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,787
San Francisco
You realize a lot of people play RPGs doing low level runs though right? Now if you aren't skilled enough to complete some RPGs at low levels and need to level up, that seems to be an issue for you and not the games you're playing.
 

Bradford

terminus est
Member
Aug 12, 2018
5,423
Let's look at another much beloved video game, Dark Souls. Dark Souls is much celebrated for its interconnected world, and non-linearity, and rightly so. It feels like a very cohesive world to explore, and it is great that you're allowed to go to areas you're not yet supposed to visit. However, the supposed non-linearity is a little bit of smoke and mirrors. Yes, you can go to the Graveyard when you get to Firelink Shrine, and you can even get a very powerful sword there, but you will struggle to defeat the enemies in that direction if you choose to go there that early as opposed to later in the game. Now, Dark Souls is famous for being tough as nails, so someone might be thinking "git gud". However, there's no "gittin gud" here; the challenge isn't that your reflexes aren't sharp enough to deal with these enemies, but just that you deal too little damage, they have too much HP, and you can't use your very powerful sword because you need to get to a higher level by defeating other random monsters that are on the critical path before the game will allow you to wield your sword. The Taurus Demon may look much more intimidating, but it's actually this random skeleton has almost as much HP and deals almost as much damage as a boss that's 10 times it's size. A beautifully designed world, once again tarnished by the cursed inheritance we've received from Dungeons and Dragons.
This is all fundamentally untrue, especially given the fact that people can beat this game at SL1. Hell, I've beaten Bloodborne just with the torch. The level up system is a means of augmenting the player and rewarding them, it is a purchase made with the game's main currency system: Your actual "level up", and arbiter of the game's entire balance, is the player learning how to approach situations and become more skilled. The Graveyard and crypts aren't really an example that work in this scenario: I go through them very low level at this point because I know how to approach and deal with the enemies in there, so getting the Rite of Kindling is always a priority at low levels for me.

I have beaten all of the souls games at low level. Some enemies take different types of damage and have more health than others, but the game is not reliant on the RPG mechanics to balance them.
 

Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
You can design what is effectively an RPG without "leveling up". Stalker: Call of Pripyat is a pretty good example of this. BOTW to a lesser degree. Here progression is not limited by level but hindered by lack of good equipment/loot. This encourages you to explore the game world to find better loot/equipment rather than just grind levels. This design philosophy is what made morrowind so good as well, though you still level up there.
 

Ignis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
I thought this would be a hot take but I found myself agreeing with your OP. Consider changing the title so more people actually read your post, because you only want to get rid of levels, not RPG's
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
Why do so many people see something they don't like in entertainment and default to "This shouldn't exist."

Let people enjoy other things you don't. Also, you're not even necessarily complaining about RPGs for part of this post, you're complaining that games have different ways of gating progression behind stronger enemies that are difficult to defeat. That's not even exclusive to RPGs, that's just games. Not everything needs to be a boring open world that presents no sense of progression to the player.
 

Deleted member 419

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
Yet, so many of the greatest games of today and yesterday insist on basing themselves completely around the idea of defeating enemies, with no challenge, to increase your stats before you can face other enemies.
If you seriously believe this is true then the problem is with how you play RPGs and not RPG game design.