You got me intrigued. I just read the text before the first mission (where you ask questions) and I like the setting. I would have moved the text in the front though, reading at left corner of the screen for more than 2 minutes is a bit cumbersome.
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Roguelike - Embrace the dnmRoa
- Thread starter melodiousmowl
- Start date
Really enjoying the Crying Suns demo. The presentation is incredible, and the story and setting seem cool. It seems like a single run will be pretty long compared to FTL, so I hope it stands up to repeated playthroughs.
Gamepass solified my absolute dislike for roguelike. And I totally hate that fantastic looking and playing games like Enter the Breach and Dead Cells constantly force me to replay from the start because I would enjoy these games so much without the roguelike shit.
That said how "bad" is Children of Morta and Crying Sun with the roguelike? They are labeled as roguelites and at least Children of Morta sounds more like random dungeons but you never really lose progress. Because these two games look so good.
That said how "bad" is Children of Morta and Crying Sun with the roguelike? They are labeled as roguelites and at least Children of Morta sounds more like random dungeons but you never really lose progress. Because these two games look so good.
From what I read, Morta become repetitive really fast and you know how to win everytime in Crying Suns after a few runs. I'll wait for deep sale for both.
Wouldn't it just be a better idea to avoid any game that has roguelite mechanics? Theres so much on offer out there.
If you're referring to the roguelite descriptor, that also applies to Dead Cells and Into the Breach. It just means they aren't turn based dungeon crawlers on a grid, with ASCII graphics (along with a few other factors that quality it as a true roguelike by the Berlin interpretation)
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Caves of Qud is hitting all the right notes for me these days. I cannot wait for its full release and mobile port.
I was a Morta Kickstarter from years ago and finally having it, with about 7 hours put into it, it's probably way too repetitive to satisfy most. The progression never lets you lose character progress, but as I'm near to beating the first major set of dungeons I don't know how engaging the game would be over a longer playthrough.
That said, I also don't think Into the Breach is very representative of anything with these subgenres. It's honestly just a bite-sized (though, personally, nigh perfect) game that just so happens to have a couple relatively minor but persistent aspects that could have been cut without altering the overall design.
If you want a game that keeps your progress very steady, give Rogue Legacy a go. The only thing you can ever lose is some cash and weapons but every run nets you persistent character upgrades that eventually make you unstoppable.
I like the game's storytelling, what with all the little character vignettes and even side areas in dungeons, but I read close to 100 books a year, see about as many movies, and engage with a number of TV shows.
The storytelling is good, but as an actual story it's nothing amazing. At that point, I kind of need something compelling me to uncover more of it, and the dungeon structure and gameplay doesn't evolve much beyond the first few hours, at which point you're just unlocking higher levels and pouring money into upgrades.
That said, I'm about to start the game up for a couple runs for the first time in a couple weeks, so...
I wish we had better (or at least agree-upon) language to talk about this stuff. It seems like you need at least three terms:
- Some name for games sticking close-ish to the Berlin interpretation. Games like Hack, Brogue, Shiren, etc. (roguelike?)
- Some name for games with the most core tenets of roguelikes (permadeath, randomization/procedural generation, systems-driven gameplay where the systems interact with each other in meaningful ways) applied to other genres. Games like Spelunky, FTL, etc. (roguelite?)
- Something for games with just an element or two taken from the above, like Rogue Legacy. (I have no idea what to call these)
Yeah, that matches with how I've always defined them. I often lump games like Rogue Legacy into roguelite, since there's not really a better term, but I typically mention that it has saved progression between runs when describing them. I don't think anyone really likes how there are so many different ways the terms are used, and it creates a ton of confusion. Being too focused on definition can shoe-horn games into pre-defined spaces that could limit creativity, but right now the roguelike / roguelite terminology creates tons of confusion, and when you call every game that has permadeath and procedural generation as a roguelike, it becomes almost useless as a genre descriptor.
So, after a little more time thinking about Crying Suns I still think it's a good game, but it doesn't hit the level of perfection that FTL does.
It borrows several of the defining features of FTL (the directed graph star map, the trailing horde as a timer, the scrap upgrades system) but the some of the new systems (the non-interactive ground expedition, the full ship reset between chapters) aren't great.
The hex-based 1-v-1 battleship combat is pretty good, though I think I prefer the top-down cutaway view that FTL uses in its ship-to-ship fights. They're both fun as core mechanics.
The plot and writing are much better than a genre like this requires. I love the theme and a novel with a similar setting would probably be something that I would enjoy. But ... I'm left to wonder if the story couldn't simply be told by dialog snippets, much like Into the Breach does. Is the exposition really necessary? A little mystery can go a long way, especially in a game that you're going to be playing dozens of times.
In short (and this is not a full review) if you're looking for more FTL, Crying Suns is probably worth picking up but it's not as good as the game that inspired it.
Picking up and playing the demo is a must if you're a fan of the genre.
It borrows several of the defining features of FTL (the directed graph star map, the trailing horde as a timer, the scrap upgrades system) but the some of the new systems (the non-interactive ground expedition, the full ship reset between chapters) aren't great.
The hex-based 1-v-1 battleship combat is pretty good, though I think I prefer the top-down cutaway view that FTL uses in its ship-to-ship fights. They're both fun as core mechanics.
The plot and writing are much better than a genre like this requires. I love the theme and a novel with a similar setting would probably be something that I would enjoy. But ... I'm left to wonder if the story couldn't simply be told by dialog snippets, much like Into the Breach does. Is the exposition really necessary? A little mystery can go a long way, especially in a game that you're going to be playing dozens of times.
In short (and this is not a full review) if you're looking for more FTL, Crying Suns is probably worth picking up but it's not as good as the game that inspired it.
Picking up and playing the demo is a must if you're a fan of the genre.
You mean Into the Gungeon. ;)
You are not wrong, it's kind of ironic Rogue Legacy is one of the "least rogue" games. Now that you call attention to it, I realize it's not just the meta progression but the lack of complex interacting systems. I think this is also why games like Dead Cells don't stick with me so much.
I'm also realizing I should have picked this thread's brains regarding my own game long ago. This is the twitter for my game; if it seems interesting to you and would want to give it a try and provide feedback, please PM me with your email so that I can give you access to my GDrive folder.
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Rogueoids sounds like a condition from all that low-fiber food in dungeons, and Dwarf Rogue sounds like whatever genre Dwarf Fortress is :P. Roguish sounds good; it's an adjective rather than a noun, which is appropriate because it does not describe a genre, but rather rogue elements sprinkled in other genres: Rogue Legacy would be a "roguish Metroidvania", and so on.
I think the biggest thing to disqualify or at least put Rogue Legacy (and Children of Morta) to the bottom of rogue-anything is that you don't just gain more options between runs but you also literally become more powerful in terms of damage output and health from the start. In games like Binding of Isaac, Enter the Gungeon or FTL you unlock extra options but your starting point is always the same.
You better come back and tell us how awesome it is when you've played it.
1) On the definition of roguelikes, I can't take credit for that one- I was doing my best to remember Deruk Yu's definition. In his Spelunky postmortem book (just titled "Spelunky" by Boss Fight Books), he wrote:
I like his definition, so I miss-remember it and cite it a lot, haha. His book is super interesting- I'd highly recommend it to anyone interested in roguelikes. My guess he'd slightly revise the portion on permadeath if he re-wrote it today (to address the weird meta progression stuff that's popped up in recent years).
2) I'd love to try your game and provide feedback. I'll PM you my email address.
Nice! Enjoy!
Yup yup. Hopefully it's a good fit for ya.
Yeah, I knew about complex interacting systems being a cornerstone of rogues (may even have learned it from his definition!), I meant that I hadn't consciously realized that was something Rogue Legacy / Dead Cells are missing, especially because the mosre obvious difference is the meta progression.
Thank you very much!
I like this, primarily because the term cannot be misinterpreted as anything other than an adjective. That has always annoyed me in the stealth and horror areas, where the adjective can be considered by some to be a noun.
To advance that thought, games rely on their mechanics and how those fit into their overall design. A platformer won't play similarly to a third-person shooter most of the time (Ratchet and Clank aside). Yet, somehow, a lot of folks might combine stealth titles into an overarching genre that encompasses both a platformer (Mark of the Ninja) and a third-person shooter (Hitman, MGS, etc.).
That causes an enormous breakdown in communication and genre understanding, though.
As such, I'm a fan of having a noun for genre mechanics that overwhelm their shading (ala platformer, shooter, etc.) but can easily be appended to an adjective that describes how those mechanics might be employed.
To go with roguish games, for instance, I adore Deer God and Really Big Sky. The former is a platformer, the latter a shoot-em-up. But they both fit with Derek Yu's elements of a "rogue" game.
Put some time into Caves of Qud and Dwarf Fortress this weekend.
Finally feel like I have my legs in DF, at least for getting everything up and running. Unfortunately, I had some stubborn dorfs that didn't want to craft workstations or harvest crops. On top of that some were eating the plump helmets instead of brewing. Any ideas?
Caves of Qud I haven't played a while, so lots of new stuff I wanted to try. Instead I made a gunslinger and promptly died to my first enemy. Next time I'll just return to my tried and true multi-armed menace build with vortex welding and evil twin slaying attributes.
Finally feel like I have my legs in DF, at least for getting everything up and running. Unfortunately, I had some stubborn dorfs that didn't want to craft workstations or harvest crops. On top of that some were eating the plump helmets instead of brewing. Any ideas?
Caves of Qud I haven't played a while, so lots of new stuff I wanted to try. Instead I made a gunslinger and promptly died to my first enemy. Next time I'll just return to my tried and true multi-armed menace build with vortex welding and evil twin slaying attributes.
Easiest way to do is to discern how much metaprogression there is in game - its what most devs opt to do to cater to the crowd who expect some sort of tangible "progress" meter in their games.
Most common areas are:
1- Permanent stat increases that you can gain (Rogue Legacy)
2- Unlockable items you can add to the item pool (Isaac)
3- Unlockable characters that have a gameplay impact (Isaac, Risk of Rain)
4- Starting hub area that you can upgrade over time (Darkest Dungeon)
Noita is out and damn it looks good
store.steampowered.com
Save 50% on Noita on Steam
Noita is a magical action roguelite set in a world where every pixel is physically simulated. Fight, explore, melt, burn, freeze and evaporate your way through the procedurally generated world using spells you've created yourself.
Purchased it but Cube World has taken up my time today, I'll try to post some impressions soon.Noita is out and damn it looks good
Save 50% on Noita on Steam
Noita is a magical action roguelite set in a world where every pixel is physically simulated. Fight, explore, melt, burn, freeze and evaporate your way through the procedurally generated world using spells you've created yourself.
I can't speak to 4 (haven't played Darkest Dungeon), but I can be alright with 2 and 3. 3 is basically just different starting conditions, and 2 is more of a tutorialization mechanic than anything (allowing players to learn the item pool bit by bit). 1 seems apart from that. To me, one of the core appeals of roguelikes is that they are about personal improvement being the avenue to success. 1 is completely antithetical to that.
Any feelings on Stoneshard? It proports to do a few things differently, but keep the roguelike spirit alive.
Take a look at the roster of playable characters / classes and tell me if you notice something:
It's wizard-lite?Take a look at the roster of playable characters / classes and tell me if you notice something:
What are the smallest and simplest games that you consider as roguelikes?
I'm very fond of the randomisation in the 1991 Game Boy game Cave Noire. It doesn't have complex systems but the design keeps your toes, and you're usually only a few bad moves away from death.
I'm very fond of the randomisation in the 1991 Game Boy game Cave Noire. It doesn't have complex systems but the design keeps your toes, and you're usually only a few bad moves away from death.
More like Kindom Come: Deliverance lite. For a game purporting to be all about character creation options (and having a multitude of playable character sprites), the fact that you can't even play as a woman or a person of color in 2019 is, well...
(cursory research seems to suggest you can, indeed, play as a magic user. Just not a female or black magic user).
Probably Hoplite or Ending, although those fall more on the "tactical/puzzle" spectrum rather than traditional roguelikes
Sure, that doesn't really tell me much about the gameplay though.
It's not like it's a game in an entirely groundbreaking new genre. You probably know all you need to just from watching the trailer.
I'd say that, in its current state, Noita is kind of disappointing. Maybe it's a victim of personal expectations. I was kind of expecting a 2D Brogue-type game, but the game feels too hectic (in that chain reactions are too common and overwhelming) and too drawn-out (in that it takes too long to get into interesting scenarios). There's too much randomness in wands and presence of particles to approach situations in a more deliberate fashion, and the combat itself is too "2D shooter" to allow the player to really experiment.
Now all these things can be remedied and improved upon, but currently, Noita feels like a lot of fantastic potential and possibilities trapped in a lackluster structure. Like this particle/physics system + Catacomb Kids would be the best roguelite platformer ever, but Noita doesn't have Catacomb Kids' more methodical design
Now all these things can be remedied and improved upon, but currently, Noita feels like a lot of fantastic potential and possibilities trapped in a lackluster structure. Like this particle/physics system + Catacomb Kids would be the best roguelite platformer ever, but Noita doesn't have Catacomb Kids' more methodical design
Interesting - too freeform for its own good? I've bought the game, but yet to try it out.
Sounds like Noita is more of a toy than a game. I'm okay with that.
In other news, my SD card died in my Switch, so I'm down to internal memory until the replacement comes. That's ... not a lot of space, so I re-downloaded Tangledeep since I bounced off the controls/interface when it came out. I'm in a better place to enjoy it for what it is, but I can't help but feel the game could've used some more refinement on the gameplay loop. I almost wish it were a proper RPG instead of a roguelike as the dungeons are the weakest part of the game, much like I find Mystery Dungeon games have dungeons as their weakest part. Makes for a boring experience at times.
In other news, my SD card died in my Switch, so I'm down to internal memory until the replacement comes. That's ... not a lot of space, so I re-downloaded Tangledeep since I bounced off the controls/interface when it came out. I'm in a better place to enjoy it for what it is, but I can't help but feel the game could've used some more refinement on the gameplay loop. I almost wish it were a proper RPG instead of a roguelike as the dungeons are the weakest part of the game, much like I find Mystery Dungeon games have dungeons as their weakest part. Makes for a boring experience at times.
It's not what you're used to with roguelikes as there aren't any levels. You'll be evolving your unit as you progress (you evolve by moving up a floor), but it's more about continually swapping in/out parts as you go. You don't have to kill everything.
Look over the "Survival Tips" section in the manual. My favorite tip is to stick with legs for propulsion in the beginning and avoid wheels. Legs are sturdy enough and don't incur a speed penalty (like treads).
As much as I love explosions, keep in mind that explosions destroy parts on enemies so you'll have less to salvage and use if you blow everyone up explosives. Sucks because explosives do so damn much damage and make for pretty ASCII art stuff.
Look over the "Survival Tips" section in the manual. My favorite tip is to stick with legs for propulsion in the beginning and avoid wheels. Legs are sturdy enough and don't incur a speed penalty (like treads).
As much as I love explosions, keep in mind that explosions destroy parts on enemies so you'll have less to salvage and use if you blow everyone up explosives. Sucks because explosives do so damn much damage and make for pretty ASCII art stuff.
It's time to embrace it
1. Roguelike
2. Roguelikelike
3. Roguelikelikelike
Binding of Isaac is a roguelikelike since it shares many traits associated with Rogue but applied to a twinstick shooter with some meta-progression.
Hollow Knight is a rogue(like)^5 because it's about going deeper.
Alright I've put about 6hrs into Noita and whilst at first I was a bit disappointed, I'm now really sold on the game. The game seems very aimless at first, and has a lot of weird quirks that can confuse you, but the game mechanics here have a ton of potential and fun on offer already.
Noita is essentially a falling sand engine combining mechanics from Magicka and Spelunky. It can be brutally hard at times, and the randomness of the game will lead you to die in hilarious ways, but the meat of the game: finding wands, spells, spell modifiers and perks, and creating cool and powerful combinations to progress through the game is an absolute blast (sometimes literally). The game takes place underground, however there are secrets hidden both on the surface and in these caverns for you to find. Sometimes these are spell unlocks, other times they are shortcuts between levels, sometimes they are your doom. You will often find weird and unsettling places that you hadn't seen before and make a mental note of them to return later with the proper spells or perks to explore them.
The game has a harsh difficulty curve between levels, kind of like Spelunky. You really have to explore as much as possible before going through the portal at the end of the level. It's important to find good wands and spells for future use, because between each level you can modify the spells of each wand to your liking. With the right stuff, you can make incredibly satisfying and deadly combinations. SMG-like bouncy projectiles with a bubble shield, explosion immunity with short range scatter shot explosives, projectiles that shoot lightning bolts on impact, a literal black hole that destroys everything unfortunate enough to get too close? Noita's got you covered. However, with risk comes reward, but also potentially your death.
Given enough time to adjust to the game's quirkiness and randomness, there is a very enjoyable and rewarding experience to be found here. The game encourages experimentation and using the terrain to your advantage (you get double gold drops for enemies killed by "accidents"). Wood, coal, gunpowder burns easily, stalactites and icicles can break off ceilings and kill enemies, etc. I have a few issues with the game in it's current state however. Sometimes items feel sparsely spread around the levels, leading you to explore and find nothing, whilst other times loot is abundant but mostly scattered around a small area of the level. The first two levels are fairly easy, but difficulty ramps up significantly after. The issue is that it often takes going through those first two levels for the game to pick up and for you to have just a few interesting spells, so your runs usually end shortly after becoming interesting. Nothing that can't be improved before release.
Phew, apologies for the wall of text. I don't write impressions so I hope it's descriptive enough to understand the basics of the game. I've really enjoyed my time with Noita so far, and the devs are already releasing patches to fix bugs and add new things to the game. I think it's already a content rich game, and I can't wait to see how the game will shape up when it leaves early access.
Noita is essentially a falling sand engine combining mechanics from Magicka and Spelunky. It can be brutally hard at times, and the randomness of the game will lead you to die in hilarious ways, but the meat of the game: finding wands, spells, spell modifiers and perks, and creating cool and powerful combinations to progress through the game is an absolute blast (sometimes literally). The game takes place underground, however there are secrets hidden both on the surface and in these caverns for you to find. Sometimes these are spell unlocks, other times they are shortcuts between levels, sometimes they are your doom. You will often find weird and unsettling places that you hadn't seen before and make a mental note of them to return later with the proper spells or perks to explore them.
The game has a harsh difficulty curve between levels, kind of like Spelunky. You really have to explore as much as possible before going through the portal at the end of the level. It's important to find good wands and spells for future use, because between each level you can modify the spells of each wand to your liking. With the right stuff, you can make incredibly satisfying and deadly combinations. SMG-like bouncy projectiles with a bubble shield, explosion immunity with short range scatter shot explosives, projectiles that shoot lightning bolts on impact, a literal black hole that destroys everything unfortunate enough to get too close? Noita's got you covered. However, with risk comes reward, but also potentially your death.
Given enough time to adjust to the game's quirkiness and randomness, there is a very enjoyable and rewarding experience to be found here. The game encourages experimentation and using the terrain to your advantage (you get double gold drops for enemies killed by "accidents"). Wood, coal, gunpowder burns easily, stalactites and icicles can break off ceilings and kill enemies, etc. I have a few issues with the game in it's current state however. Sometimes items feel sparsely spread around the levels, leading you to explore and find nothing, whilst other times loot is abundant but mostly scattered around a small area of the level. The first two levels are fairly easy, but difficulty ramps up significantly after. The issue is that it often takes going through those first two levels for the game to pick up and for you to have just a few interesting spells, so your runs usually end shortly after becoming interesting. Nothing that can't be improved before release.
Phew, apologies for the wall of text. I don't write impressions so I hope it's descriptive enough to understand the basics of the game. I've really enjoyed my time with Noita so far, and the devs are already releasing patches to fix bugs and add new things to the game. I think it's already a content rich game, and I can't wait to see how the game will shape up when it leaves early access.
Ferris Bueller I'd agree. Still kind of cool on the game, but it's growing on me. Once I accepted its hectic shooter approach rather than more deliberate game I had hoped it would be, I'm really enjoying it. For all its early dev issues and odd pacing like you mentioned, I have to do another run,
Ferris Bueller More_Badass
you're aware you can experiment and edit your wand spells right? mix and match different elements, create your own projectiles.
I created a giga black hole wand and...i don't what happened next. Everything died, myself included xD
you're aware you can experiment and edit your wand spells right? mix and match different elements, create your own projectiles.
I created a giga black hole wand and...i don't what happened next. Everything died, myself included xD