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Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
Seriously. The amount of people caring if he burns bridges is weird. It's his career and no one here is his life coach.
That's assuming he's burning more than one. I sure as hell wouldn't blacklist him over this, he's putting up a recruiting email for a publicly known project and raising awareness that the company still has someone in their employ who has reportedly done shit that is super gross and creepy and way more unprofessional.

There are cases where the "unprofessional" card applies. This ain't one of them.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,769
This pretty weird, as you'd think someone in the industry calling out a giant company specifically on issues of harassment and poor workplace behavior would be right up Era's Alley. Which leads me to believe people's issue is with Mike Z himself, which I don't understand.
A lot of people don't particularly care for Mike Z because he has a history of boasting a pretty self-aggrandizing public persona. He still harbors a huge grudge at EVO over Skullgirls getting snubbed because they include unreleased games at time of lineup reveals, he wrote a blog post criticizing Yooka-Laylee's kickstarter for not being "transparent" about them getting additional funding (which it was), pointing to Skullgirls' Indiegogo campaign to how it should be done, and there's a few deleted tweets out there where he slid into mentions of people praising UNIST for having good tutorials to talk about how good Skullgirls is.

None of the above which are anything serious obviously because there's some arguable nugget of truth in instances like those (EVO including unreleased titles is an opinion a lot of people share for instance), and honestly, fuck Riot Games. They should be called out. But I don't blame some people for thinking of this as another moment where it comes across less like there was some public service being made and more like it being another instance of Mike Z talking about how cool he is.

Dude is talented though, no doubt. I'm still excited for Indivisible, and I don't think he'd ever have trouble finding work if somehow Lab Zero doesn't cut the mustard for him anymore.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,993
North Carolina
Really guys? Unprofessional? Maybe Riot shouldn't have sexual harassers on their staff? Good for him. Y'all are fucking dumb. Who the fuck cares what he says publicly? Plus what's this about him getting blacklisted? He's his own fucking boss! He's fine, your fine, and what he said publicly is more than fine.
 

Harken Raiser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,992
Really guys? Unprofessional? Maybe Riot shouldn't have sexual harassers on their staff? Good for him. Y'all are fucking dumb. Who the fuck cares what he says publicly? Plus what's this about him getting blacklisted? He's his own fucking boss! He's fine, your fine, and what he said publicly is more than fine.
They don't like that he's not doing capitalism right.
 
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Ionic

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
2,735
It bums me out to see people care if he's "unprofessional" for showing an email pertaining to his poaching to one of the largest game companies on Earth. It reminds me of the folks who get angry if you talk about your salary to your coworkers as if being silent doesn't exclusively benefit those with the most power already.
 

Nali

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,653
The unwritten rules of professionalism he's openly flaunting here just allow the things he's calling out to fester, so fuck it. Dude is in a position to make some noise where it matters because his livelihood is completely unbound by corporate HR.
 

Ragnorok64

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,955
A lot of people don't particularly care for Mike Z because he has a history of boasting a pretty self-aggrandizing public persona. He still harbors a huge grudge at EVO over Skullgirls getting snubbed because they include unreleased games at time of lineup reveals, he wrote a blog post criticizing Yooka-Laylee's kickstarter for not being "transparent" about them getting additional funding (which it was), pointing to Skullgirls' Indiegogo campaign to how it should be done, and there's a few deleted tweets out there where he slid into mentions of people praising UNIST for having good tutorials to talk about how good Skullgirls is.

None of the above which are anything serious obviously because there's some arguable nugget of truth in instances like those (EVO including unreleased titles is an opinion a lot of people share for instance), and honestly, fuck Riot Games. They should be called out. But I don't blame some people for thinking of this as another moment where it comes across less like there was some public service being made and more like it being another instance of Mike Z talking about how cool he is.

Dude is talented though, no doubt. I'm still excited for Indivisible, and I don't think he'd ever have trouble finding work if somehow Lab Zero doesn't cut the mustard for him anymore.
Like aside from Yooka-Laylee, as I'm not at all familiar with that situation, none of that is even incorrect. EVO really did screw Skullgirls over especially when you consider that it projects itself as being community focused and it snubbed a game made for and by the community, with the given reasoning that it was too new. Then you considering in the year you have situations like Street Fighter X Tekken being included before release and turning out to be horrible.

Are people really that off-put my Mike Z? Like he's nowhere near as abrasive online as like Kamiya or even Harada at times. It it because his game isn't as popular? Does him pointing out design flaws and/or things he doesn't like in other popular fighters really sit that poorly with people?
 

Ionic

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
2,735
Are people really that off-put my Mike Z? Like he's nowhere near as abrasive online as like Kamiya or even Harada at times. It it because his game isn't as popular? Does him pointing out design flaws and/or things he doesn't like in other popular fighters really sit that poorly with people?

Kamiya writes abrasive Tweets in response to nobodies on Twitter. Generally people with very little power or recognition. Many people conveniently only get annoyed at this kind of "unprofessionalism" when it's a person with money and influence getting chewed out. It's even more blatant when the recipient of the "unprofessional" messages isn't a person, but a company in general in which case airing out some internal business dirty laundry is like a cardinal sin of some sort.
 

hupla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
155
This thread is a prime example of why abusive people get to stay in positions of power.

Truly embarrassing stuff coming from this community if people are more concerned with Mike being professional than him keeping Riots toxic work environment in public conversation.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,793
Kamiya writes abrasive Tweets in response to nobodies on Twitter. Generally people with very little power or recognition. Many people conveniently only get annoyed at this kind of "unprofessionalism" when it's a person with money and influence getting chewed out. It's even more blatant when the recipient of the "unprofessional" messages isn't a person, but a company in general in which case airing out some internal business dirty laundry is like a cardinal sin of some sort.

Yep, the e-mail written to him was totally written by some AI-generated script that the dirty capital giant Riot Games owns, not a human being, which completely justifies Mike's reaction.
 

Deleted member 18179

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
863
Most senior developers get letters like this from all kinds of companies. I worked with a guy who'd get them weekly from a big FPS studio. It's definitley not unusual to try to make 1-on-1 contact for hires of that seniority and importance.

That said, Mike is free to air that correspondence if he feels Riot is a place he'd never work. But I wouldn't file this under FILTHY TRICKS FROM A DEVIOUS STUDIO
 

hupla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
155
Yep, the e-mail written to him was totally written by some AI-generated script that the dirty capital giant Riot Games owns, not a human being, which completely justifies Mike's reaction.
Did Mike include this person's name in the tweet? Did the imply the person was wrong for sending the email at all? From what I can see he just used his platform to highlight the Toxicity at riot? Maybe you are looking at a different tweet and thats why you feel the need to focus in on his "unprofessionalism" over what is going on at riot
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,793
Did Mike include this person's name in the tweet? Did the imply the person was wrong for sending the email at all? From what I can see he just used his platform to highlight the Toxicity at riot? Maybe you are looking at a different tweet and thats why you feel the need to focus in on his "unprofessionalism" over what is going on at riot

He didn't include the person's name but that has nothing to do with the fact that a human being wrote that e-mail for business purposes as a "lul as if I would work for a company that has a toxic COO." Did he use his platform last year when Cecilia and Kotaku came forward with their article?
 

Ionic

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
2,735
Yep, the e-mail written to him was totally written by some AI-generated script that the dirty capital giant Riot Games owns, not a human being, which completely justifies Mike's reaction.

Give me a break. The person who wrote the email didn't sit down at their desk in their home office after a meal with their loving family and then say "Golly, I wonder if I personally would be able to reach a notable fighting game developer to join a project for the company I work for". The email is written by a human, obviously, but the reason the email exists is Riot wanted the guy. You can't use the fact that a human (who wasn't even named) wrote an email to shelter it from criticism. Cmon.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,793
Give me a break. The person who wrote the email didn't sit down at their desk in their home office after a meal with their loving family and then say "Golly, I wonder if I personally would be able to reach a notable fighting game developer to join a project for the company I work for". The email is written by a human, obviously, but the reason the email exists is Riot wanted the guy. You can't use the fact that a human (who wasn't even named) wrote an email to shelter it from criticism. Cmon.

I guarantee you the person that sent that e-mail is going to feel shitty about it being shared even if their name is blurred out, unless you really think recruiters are heartless puppets of companies, in which case the discussion is over.

You can be against the toxic culture at Riot and still think this movie is unprofessional. They are not mutually exclusive.
 

Ionic

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
2,735
I guarantee you the person that sent that e-mail is going to feel shitty about it being shared even if their name is blurred out, unless you really think recruiters are heartless puppets of companies, in which case the discussion is over.

You can be against the toxic culture at Riot and still think this movie is unprofessional. They are not mutually exclusive.

I'm just saying using the fact that employees are human beings is such a nothing statement that it's like, next level corporate protectionism. But if you want to talk about people feeling like crap, sure, play ball. Imagine founding a company you love that has gained moderate financial success and incredible community goodwill and then being approached with an offer to eschew all that history to work at a company rife with sexual abuse and worker exploitation but with the promise of a figurative dumptruck of cash. I'm sure having to think about that choice is pretty shitty too. You shouldn't have to wait for the most non-disruptive time or place to call out systemic bullshit.
 

Dartastic

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
That reminds me, Indivisible is coming out next month. Really looking forward to that.
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
I'm just saying using the fact that employees are human beings is such a nothing statement that it's like, next level corporate protectionism. But if you want to talk about people feeling like crap, sure, play ball. Imagine founding a company you love that has gained moderate financial success and incredible community goodwill and then being approached with an offer to eschew all that history to work at a company rife with sexual abuse and worker exploitation but with the promise of a figurative dumptruck of cash. I'm sure having to think about that choice is pretty shitty too. You shouldn't have to wait for the most non-disruptive time or place to call out systemic bullshit.

You know fuck Riot and all that but I don't think it would be quite the same. I mean I don't think it'd be that deep in the first place if you were the person sending the letter.
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
next level corporate protectionism
I think Era is pretty bad about this sort of thing. Say that you're boycotting a company or a product for one principle or another and there's a decent chance that someone will respond trying to guilt-trip you into feeling bad that you're putting the company's employees' livelihoods on the line.

I've seen it a few times, and it always comes across as gross. Like they're throwing hostages in the line of fire to protect the higher-ups' shitty practices.
 

rein

Member
Apr 16, 2018
713
I respect his stance on the matter, but i'm pretty sure he just nuked that bridge from orbit.
 

Coldman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,208
cool. eff Riot

I like the Riot employees pissed off in the mentions that they're apparently just in it for the money. yeah, motherfuckers, you kind of are? not exclusively but Choices Have Been Made in the name of putting bread on the table, everyone does it, own it
 

Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
Good idea to call out the EPIC's COO's actions on that Tweet.

I don't get why some people here get so upset about 'burning bridges'. This dude is a grown up and I'm pretty sure that he's aware of what he's doing.
 

Wanderer5

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,984
Somewhere.
"the COO dude who touched people's balls and farted in their faces at meetings- "

giphy.gif


Well, okay.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
I think Era is pretty bad about this sort of thing. Say that you're boycotting a company or a product for one principle or another and there's a decent chance that someone will respond trying to guilt-trip you into feeling bad that you're putting the company's employees' livelihoods on the line.

I've seen it a few times, and it always comes across as gross. Like they're throwing hostages in the line of fire to protect the higher-ups' shitty practices.

it is a general thing (tho era being a hobby site exacerbates it for sure!), ppl who tie their identity to material objects and immaterial brands and see attacks on these things as attacks on themselves.

tho imo there is nothing wrong with guilt-tripping ppl into "feeling bad that you're putting the company's employees' livelihoods on the line.", since that is a material reality and many ppls jobs are tied to internet perception. you are right that many ppl use it as a deflection and don't care about employee livelihoods even remotely, but historically it is the workers who get fucked over far more quickly than any higher up, particularly in a non-unionized industry.

that is not to say ppl are personally culpable for large-scale internet mania, like I don't think it's an A/B type situation, that you can either criticize something/hurt someone vs. not say anything/allow it to go on, just that contributing towards a wave of vitriol should be seen as exactly that.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,909
Dont put Mike Z in the group that needs to be careful not to burn bridges, hes not some average game developer. He was also never in it for the money, having gone indie for his own reasons way back in the day
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,793
Dont put Mike Z in the group that needs to be careful not to burn bridges, hes not some average game developer. He was also never in it for the money, having gone indie for his own reasons way back in the day

More than likely this is correct, however it is worth pointing out for the majority of people doing something like this is a very quick way to burn bridges if you are not in a position to be picky with your career.
 

BackwardCap

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
2,472
I'm also in the camp that people complaining about Mike doing this to Riot for his outlined reasons need to get their priorities straight.