Right now in East Jerusalem, Israeli settlers are forcing Palestinians out of their own homes. This is ethnic cleansing before our eyes, happening now

[UberTag]

This just feels like a lost cause. All the western countries will fall over themselves to support Israel and the Arabic countries don't care enough to do anything, so this will happen until there is no Palestinia left.

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The question people need to be asking isn't whether there's any hope for the Palestinians left? There isn't. There never was and never will be any hope for them until they're exterminated. And this act will be sanctioned by any US administration and most other Western democracies as well. Humanity will all collectively turn a blind eye while they are crushed out of existence.

The question that needs to be asked is what will Israel choose to do with its influence once they're gone? Because that's not something you just up and discard after achieving your initial aims. You instead see what else you're able to do with it.

 

[Deleted member 5593]

that's the thing about the comparison is that it's generally made in a "what once was done to the jews they now do to another, wow the irony" kind of way so usually it is doing exactly what you're saying it isn't

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Nah, it's calling a fascist genocidal regime exactly what it is, like every other genocidal fascist regime before it.

 

[Deleted member 8257]

Most of the world recognize Palestine, it's really just the US and the EU (and a couple of America's client states) that show mostly unconditional support for Israel.

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Surprised why Canada or Mexico have not recognized Palestine...

 

[Sendero]

Most of the world recognize Palestine, it's really just the US and the EU (and a couple of America's client states) that show mostly unconditional support for Israel.

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I'm well aware. But it means nothing, if the nations don't do anything meaningful to stop it.
Politicians are more likely to condemn anti antisemitism (real or otherwise), rather than condemn Israel's fully documented criminal actions.


A lot of us are old enough to remember how Palestinians were constantly equaled to terrorists-in-the-making, stripping them of humanity and empathy, for decades.
But at least there was some semblance of idea that maybe someday -- with the right leaders -- an agreement would be reached, even if tensions were to remain.

Nowadays? Is one sided atrocity after another.
Are we really going to keep saying that this is just Bibi and a handful of bad faith actors?

No. If the population will not vote against such leaders and actions, harsh pressure need to be put on the whole country.
That's how it would be done with any other (non powerful ) nation. It's only fair.

 

[Chikor]

You still can see the iron curtain in Europe on that map (outside of Sweden and Iceland).

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You can definitely see cold war lines for sure.
Finland and Sweden were neutral during the cold war and I don't think it's an accident they are better on this issue than most of western Europe.

Surprised why Canada or Mexico have not recognized Palestine...

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I don't think Canada is surprising at all. They are mostly aligned with America's foreign policy and always has been. The Iraq war is an exception to the rule.

I'm well aware. But it means nothing, if the nations don't do anything meaningful to stop it.

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Without the support of the US, the EU and the rest of the "free world" Israel could have not do what it does. You can argue that the rest of the world could've have done more (and you should probably look at what happened to countries that tried to help the Palestinians) but I don't think there is any comparison in blame and complicity between the countries that are actively supporting Israel and those that oppose but maybe not forcefully enough.

 

[Sendero]

Surprised why Canada or Mexico have not recognized Palestine...

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Not sure if there is hard data, but I have yet to find a person in Mexico that does not fully support Palestina. There have been several protests in favor of them.
But, as cliche as it sounds, the Jew community in Mexico is incredibly powerful (money and political wise) and they have been pretty vocal about not accepting Palestine's recognition.

Like, straight out said by President Fox and implied by Calderon (both from PAN, right wingers).
Two years ago, AMLO (current President, leftist) said "..come one, I'm not going to confront the Jew community". The context was different, but it shows you how influential they are.

That's the reality.

 

[KingK]

Fuck the Isreali government and its supporters. Fascist apartheid supporters.

I also really hate how often Isreal is equated to Jews by both supporters and critics of the state. Really effective propaganda tactic by the government to defang/discredit valid criticisms.

Reminder that the majority of elected democratic senators and representatives support stripping free speech rights from American Citizens who want to Boycott Israel. (GOP goes without saying)

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Yup, it's disgusting.

 

[Senator Toadstool]

Question, what is the claim to the land? Does israel not have chain of title? Inverse possession? Seems absurd to say something that even if true was something occupied 70-80 years ago hasn't lost the right and the occupants own the land

(I understand it's likely just a pretext, but what facade are they even going with)

 

[purplemonkey111]

Question, what is the claim to the land? Does israel not have chain of title? Inverse possession? Seems absurd to say something that even if true was something occupied 70-80 years ago hasn't lost the right and the occupants own the land

(I understand it's likely just a pretext, but what facade are they even going with)

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They have tanks and guns. That is the pretext.

 

[Jeb]

Question, what is the claim to the land? Does israel not have chain of title? Inverse possession? Seems absurd to say something that even if true was something occupied 70-80 years ago hasn't lost the right and the occupants own the land

(I understand it's likely just a pretext, but what facade are they even going with)

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They lived there thousands of years ago and god said it was theirs so fuck anyone currently living there.

 

[Chikor]

Question, what is the claim to the land? Does israel not have chain of title? Inverse possession? Seems absurd to say something that even if true was something occupied 70-80 years ago hasn't lost the right and the occupants own the land

(I understand it's likely just a pretext, but what facade are they even going with)

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The claim is based on ottoman land ownership documentation, it's bullshit, it's trying to reset land/home ownership status to pre-1948 times (or really, pre-1918 here) while totally rejecting any Palestinian claims from that period.

It's legalistic garbage and the Israeli courts have been using to justify and enable ethnically cleansing Sheikh Jarrah since the 1970s.

 

[Codeblue]

sacrament

 

[dude]

Question, what is the claim to the land? Does israel not have chain of title? Inverse possession? Seems absurd to say something that even if true was something occupied 70-80 years ago hasn't lost the right and the occupants own the land

(I understand it's likely just a pretext, but what facade are they even going with)

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I started my activism in the Sheikh Jerrakh protests of 2010-2, so I think I can explain. First, this is all a facade, the details don't matter much - it's part of a bigger settler plan to "judaize" parts of Jerusalem and change existing demographics (and, of course, ultimately - To cleanse the area of Palestinians.) There are multiple fronts to this, Sheikh Jerrakh is just one of them.

I believe the situation in Sheikh Jerrakh is that Jewish settlers claim the lands were owned by Jewish owners up to '48 (with somewhat dubious evidence, since Israel didn't exist back then - It's relying on old Ottoman and British documents), anyway the lands were then held by Jordan when Jordan held the West Bank which sorts of muddles the records. In the 70's, the supreme court f Israel has decided to give these lands "back" to the Jewish organizations - Eventually in 2009 the courts started to evict people out of homes and Jewish settlers started moving in.
Of course, even the people living in Sheikh Jerrakh who didn't live there for a long long time, are Palestinian refugees who were driven out of their homes in '48, which Israel won't recognize.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

Yes, I've seen that happen plenty of times and I agree with you. But I think many of the comparisons are as simple as seeing blatantly fascist actions/ideology and noting the similarities to what is easily the most well known, or, in many cases, is the only historical fascist ethno-state they were taught about in history class. The conflating of Jews with Isreal happens enough on both sides that I kind of understand the mod decision... but I also understand the pushback against it.

But I don't want to re-litigate the mods position, and I'll edit the post if it's too close to violating the rule.

I don't think there's any perfect comparison to the ethnic cleansing going on here anyway. In some ways it reminds me more of the US genocide of indigenous people, but there are so many differences there as well and the US government didn't have the explicit ethno-state component. There's the comparisons to South Africa as well, but again, any comparisons are going to have limits to their usefulness as Israeli apartheid/ethnic cleansing is it's own unique thing.

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yeah I mostly agree with this, though I will say even being understanding to the pushback if you've seen it happen plenty of times and seen it happen plenty of times on both sides I think that's enough

the people who actually care about the human rights of the palestinian people, their claim to the land, and the atrocities suffered by them will find a way to discuss those things and the people who don't won't. shit's too dire for them

 

[Sordid Plebeian]

It's not colonialism if you look away

Disappointing nothing will be done to help these people. Can only imagine what another 50 years of fascist, theological apartheid will do to those people.

 

[Deleted member 4346]

What a disgusting situation. It robs Israel of all credibility, when it is a nation whose courts and institutions allow and even encourage the slow genocide of the Palestinian people. And it's grotesque that America falls in line behind this apartheid state. But we can't get open discussion of this here in the US. Even here on Era the discussion must be neutered in such a way to avoid offending pro-Zionism posters. We can't vote for politicians who would sever the US-Israel imperialistic cord. We can't even boycott Israeli companies in some cases!

I wonder how Zionists can know Jewish history, not just their suffering at the hands of Nazis but going back centuries prior, where they had their property seized, were run out of many European nations, and yet perpetrate these same crimes against humanity upon the Palestinians? It shows a callous and cruel nature where Palestinians are considered less than human, that their lives are expendable... zero self-awareness (particularly talking about Jewish Zionists) for a people who lost nearly half of their number to fascism in the mid-20th century.

 

[Deleted member 22630]

Vile!

 

[sacrament]

sacrament

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Yes? I commented...

Not OK. Again, no effort from the US and others. It's cruelty and madness.

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Our previous discussion I've also called Israel an apartheid state. I am just not comfortable calling it ethnic cleansing for historical/similar reasons the staff message/guidance have noted. But unsurprisingly, Israel continues to make horrible decisions for their own citizens - and act brutally, and with little compassion for their own citizens (Palestinians should have their own state).

The US needs to withdraw economic and financial support from Israel, and apply other pressures here. Israel only does this because the US allows it. Fact folks like AOC can't address this honestly gives me little hope that anything will change with the current administration anytime soon unfortunately. Even then, I dunno - even if the US did something I get a sense Bibi is just a complete douche bag, and would go his own way until he finally gets jailed - aka, worse before it gets better.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

Our previous discussion I've also called Israel an apartheid state. I am just not comfortable calling it ethnic cleansing for historical/similar reasons the staff message/guidance have noted. But unsurprisingly, Israel continues to make horrible decisions for their own citizens - and act brutally, and with little compassion for their own citizens (Palestinians should have their own state).

The US needs to withdraw economic and financial support from Israel, and apply other pressures here. Israel only does this because the US allows it. Fact folks like AOC can't address this honestly gives me little hope that anything will change with the current administration anytime soon unfortunately. Even then, I dunno - even if the US did something I get a sense Bibi is just a complete douche bag, and would go his own way until he finally gets jailed - aka, worse before it gets better.

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it's literally ethnic cleansing though. the nazi comparison is one thing but denying the ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people is ahistorical and amoral. like, literally just google the definition, it's right there. actually, if you would, please look up the definition of ethic cleansing, transcribe it word for word, and then explain how what's happening isn't that. please

 

[dude]

What a disgusting situation. It robs Israel of all credibility, when it is a nation whose courts and institutions allow and even encourage the slow genocide of the Palestinian people. And it's grotesque that America falls in line behind this apartheid state. But we can't get open discussion of this here in the US. Even here on Era the discussion must be neutered in such a way to avoid offending pro-Zionism posters. We can't vote for politicians who would sever the US-Israel imperialistic cord. We can't even boycott Israeli companies in some cases!

I wonder how Zionists can know Jewish history, not just their suffering at the hands of Nazis but going back centuries prior, where they had their property seized, were run out of many European nations, and yet perpetrate these same crimes against humanity upon the Palestinians? It shows a callous and cruel nature where Palestinians are considered less than human, that their lives are expendable... zero self-awareness from a people who lost nearly half of their number to fascism in the mid-20th century.

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Not that I disagree with your overall claims - the first part of your post is all true.
But, and I don't mean to say it in a mean spirited way, but really to highlight something that bugs me - the second part of your post is one of the ways in which Jewish people and Zionism and conflated. Zionists are nota "people" and it seems like you're using that term interchangeably with "Jewish". There are multi faceted and complex reasons for what is happening in Palestine today and in the past, such as the colonial origins of Zionism, Western agenda, various situations in Israel etc. None of them are related to the "callous and cruel nature" of "Zionists".

 

[Linkage76]

Palestinian rights are human rights. We need to have that in the title. Threads like these disappear quickly because people don't care. We need more awareness to the issues! Palestinian rights are rights. We don't deserve this shit! I don't usually post much outside the NBA threads but this shit pisses me off.

 

[Deleted member 4346]

Not that I disagree with your overall claims - the first part of your post is all true.
But, and I don't mean to say it in a mean spirited way, but really to highlight something that bugs me - the second part of your post is one of the ways in which Jewish people and Zionism and conflated. Zionists are nota "people" and it seems like you're using that term interchangeably with "Jewish". There are multi faceted and complex reasons for what is happening in Palestine today and in the past, such as the colonial origins of Zionism, Western agenda, various situations in Israel etc. None of them are related to the "callous and cruel nature" of "Zionists".

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I'm not conflating Zionists and Jews, though, I'll edit that last sentence of my post because that's not what I was trying to say. Not all Zionists are Jewish. Most American Zionists are fundamentalist Christians, for instance.

 

[dude]

I'm not conflating Zionists and Jews, though, I'll edit that last sentence of my post because that's not what I was trying to say. Not all Zionists are Jewish. Most American Zionists are fundamentalist Christians, for instance.

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I know.That's why it doesn't make sense to say:

zero self-awareness from a people who lost nearly half of their number to fascism in the mid-20th century.

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[ProstatePuncher]

Seen the videos and its absolutely insane. They're so brazen about it as well. Like they're in a supermarket, picking out something to buy. Countries like the US won't give a shit, when they've got the best ability to grab Israel by the ear and have a word with them.

 

[Michilin]

So the next step is basically full-on genocide? What will take to other governments take any kind of action here? At least the EU would do something?

 

[mztik]

Disgusting. Also disgusting how the world keeps turning a blind eye.

 

[sacrament]

it's literally ethnic cleansing though. the nazi comparison is one thing but denying the ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people is ahistorical and amoral. like, literally just google the definition, it's right there. actually, if you would, please look up the definition of ethic cleansing, transcribe it word for word, and then explain how what's happening isn't that. please

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Ok. I think I can come to similar conclusions without that phrasing, but thanks for the concern.

 

[Mulligan]

This is apartheid South Africa shit.

I don't know how you can justify the US' support of the Israeli state at this point and how you can't justify the Palestinian people's movement at this point.

One is bombing the shit out of whole villages with US manufactured and armed F-16s, and the other one is shooting a mortar into a neighborhood. One is encouraging it's more radical fascist elements to take over the homes of Palestinians, the other is encouraging its people to protest a wall and getting massacred by craven snipers.

The threadmark is whatever. Like sure let's not use the most visceral historical comparison of the current moment; particularly because the historical comparison murdered millions in just a few years and this one is just the slow planned out death of a group of people throughout the decades.

However, the Israelí state is using the exact same tactics against Palestinians that were used by a certain fascist state in the 30's and 40's with the exception of the use of death camps; although one could argue that Gaza is just one large death camp.

 

[mentok15]

This is terrible, and no one is willing to do anything about it.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

Ok. I think I can come to similar conclusions without that phrasing, but thanks for the concern.

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no I actually want you to transcribe the definition of "ethnic cleansing" word for word and then explain how this isn't that

like, what do you think the subject of this thread is? don't dance

 

[sacrament]

no I actually want you to transcribe the definition of "ethnic cleansing" word for word and then explain how this isn't that

like, what do you think the subject of this thread is? don't dance

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I'm not dancing, or downplaying - but I also don't need to justify my word choices either. I am particularly sensitive to this, and I think it's an important consideration. We can condemn this action in all sorts of language - ethnic cleansing if you want, apartheid if I want, or waging terrorism on their own populance (in this case, not much different than any racially based apartheid systems we've historically seen). I'm not asking anyone to change their language, I am just saying for myself it dances too closely to other historical implications within context - and this is closer to S.African oppression and behaviors than that.

Either way, we're on the same page and the same team when it comes to not approving and demanding justice.

 

[Mulligan]

So the next step is basically full-on genocide? What will take to other governments take any kind of action here? At least the EU would do something?

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What incentive does Israel have in progressing this further? Why progress it further? The fascist Israeli state is getting exactly what it wants right now. They're still being supported by the Western community at large, and they get to slowly turn Gaza, the West Bank, and other Palestinian settlements into smaller and smaller open air prisons over time. There's no need to rush this genocide when the Israelí government controls every aspect of a Palestinian's life. This is a slow genocide in the same vain as that of the current US state's stance on Native Americans, or South American countries that have access to the Amazon rainforest and the indigenous peoples that inhabit it.

There is no incentive for the EU or US to put a stop to it either. The US and the west have their ally and bully for Iran for the price of an F-35 and JDAM shipments.

 

[Chikor]

This is terrible, and no one is willing to do anything about it.

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It's not so much as no one willing to do anything as it is America blocking any attempt to do so.
Like if you just get the US to stop vetoing Israel-related resolutions in the UN you will see pretty quickly that there are people in the world who are willing to do something about that.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Israeli influence over US politics is so entrenched that not even the POTUS can speak plainly about it.

 

[Senator Toadstool]

I started my activism in the Sheikh Jerrakh protests of 2010-2, so I think I can explain. First, this is all a facade, the details don't matter much - it's part of a bigger settler plan to "judaize" parts of Jerusalem and change existing demographics (and, of course, ultimately - To cleanse the area of Palestinians.) There are multiple fronts to this, Sheikh Jerrakh is just one of them.

I believe the situation in Sheikh Jerrakh is that Jewish settlers claim the lands were owned by Jewish owners up to '48 (with somewhat dubious evidence, since Israel didn't exist back then - It's relying on old Ottoman and British documents), anyway the lands were then held by Jordan when Jordan held the West Bank which sorts of muddles the records. In the 70's, the supreme court f Israel has decided to give these lands "back" to the Jewish organizations - Eventually in 2009 the courts started to evict people out of homes and Jewish settlers started moving in.
Of course, even the people living in Sheikh Jerrakh who didn't live there for a long long time, are Palestinian refugees who were driven out of their homes in '48, which Israel won't recognize.

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So I'm presuming their claims since 1948 are just being ignored and typical israel land use and property rights are being ignored? As I assume israel doesn't allow these long standing claims in its own territory when the current title owners are jewish.

Thanks for the explanation

 

[Senator Toadstool]

It's not so much as no one willing to do anything as it is America blocking any attempt to do so.
Like if you just get the US to stop vetoing Israel-related resolutions in the UN you will see pretty quickly that there are people in the world who are willing to do something about that.

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I lay the blame at the US largely (and tbf the EU likes to pay lip services but doesn't really do much when it can) but look how quickly the UAE and bahrain got in bed with israel (how how saudí is clandestinely). There's really no unified arab front and leftists across the world will continue to push for rights I don't really see any appetite for the world wanting to back a state now. It's really full civil rights or federation. The world (even anti US countries) seems content to let this happen with occasional flare ups like this.

 

[M.Bluth]

This is ethnic cleansing, as anyone who has recognized Israel's apartheid policy going on for decades would know.
It's important to call things by their actual name. Otherwise you're just trying to avoid dealing with the issue altogether.

The weird thing with American progressives is, especially people here, they're perfectly able to see it in other crises, but refuse to deal when it comes to Palestine. You know what it means when the police use weird bullshit language like "officer-involved shooting" and "suspect didn't comply with orders." You know when and why the media uses "lone-wolf shooter" instead of "terrorist." "Riots" instead of "protests."

You know all this. But when it comes to Palestine y'all get fucking weird. It's never a thing that matters when you vote. And then act frustrated when nothing good happens, or make excuses like it can never change.

Fuck all that.

Also fuck the fact (and I know that it is a FACT) that the mods will find some excuse sooner or later to shut down this thread like every other Palestine thread.

 

[Garrett 2U]

Just tragic

 

[Senator Toadstool]

wait wait. Why are diplomatic missions and consulates in East Jerusalem which is consented international territory.


Hell, even trump kept the US embassy in West Jerusalem.

edit:it looks like the US mission is right on the 1949 line.

In the 1960s, many diplomatic missions and consulates opened in Sheikh Jarrah: The BritishConsulate at 19 Nashashibi Street,[21]​ the TurkishConsulate next door at 20 Nashashibi Street, the Belgian Consulate, the Swedish Consulate, the Spanish Consulate, and the UN mission at Saint George Street.[22]​

Tony Blair, envoy of the Diplomatic Quartet, stays at the American Colony Hotel when visiting the region.[23]​

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[Sibylus]

Israeli influence over US politics is so entrenched that not even the POTUS can speak plainly about it.

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Less "can", more "will". And that can all change in a moment if the given politician isn't a chickenshit, or is a chickenshit that opened themselves to being pushed on it. People should be pushing Biden on this, absolutely... but he's not the only one.

 

[FreshYoungDoggo]

No justice till Israel is dissolved and the land returned to it's people free of the colonizers.

 

[AkuMifune]

Israel would be doing this NO MATTER who lived next door because they feel entitled to the land they're taking. It just sucks that it happens to be the Palestinians, whom the world doesn't give a shit about. You think we're supposed to learn from our mistakes and yet we get to watch ethnic cleansing happen live on TV this weekend. Yay.

 

[take_marsh]

The Israeli government is dirty as hell.

 

[Ogodei]

In U.S. politics this is a generational issue. Older Democrats are verrrry pro-Israel. Being pro-Israel was a leftist thing back in the 60s and 70s due to things like the Kibbutz, even.

Younger Dems will equivocate more but AIPAC and the related lobbies are loud and powerful and it's more trouble than it's worth as a politician to stick your neck out for Palestinians. Lots to lose and little to gain when their plight has little bearing on domestic policy and the Pro-Palestinian lobby in this country is a non-entity politically.

It's a sad situation all around, especially as the median position in Israel goes further and further to the right.

 

[Kolx]

This will not stop until every single Palestinian is eradicated from the west bank, but hey don't call it out or you will get labeled anti-Semitic.

 

[Deleted member 62221]

The weird thing with American progressives is, especially people here, they're perfectly able to see it in other crises, but refuse to deal when it comes to Palestine. You know what it means when the police use weird bullshit language like "officer-involved shooting" and "suspect didn't comply with orders." You know when and why the media uses "lone-wolf shooter" instead of "terrorist." "Riots" instead of "protests."

You know all this. But when it comes to Palestine y'all get fucking weird. It's never a thing that matters when you vote. And then act frustrated when nothing good happens, or make excuses like it can never change.

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Pretty much. I don't expect american progressives to be more powerful than their establishment but it would be nice to see at least some noise about this.

All typical american reactions sound like "we've tried nothing and we are all out of ideas".

Also saying there's no hope is something that palestinians get to decide, not people at the other side of the world.

 

[Cyanity]

Spoiler alert: It's been ethnic cleansing this whole time.

 

[Apathy]

Not just "establishment dems".

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AOC is a joke. Call out issues, not just cause it makes you look good.

Fuck, so much for being progressive

 

[GameChanger]

Why is anyone surprised by this? How do y'all think the state of Israel was established and expanded?

 

[Palette Swap]

This is so disgusting.
Bonus point for all the usual free speech on social media being, again, very quiet as Palestinians are silenced on social media, again. These fuckfaces will fall on their sword to defend capital N Nazis before Palestinians. It's a great litmus test whenever someone whines that an asshole has been silenced but they've never had a word about this.