It's not a poorly paced or poorly written film and when you find yourself largely agreeing with alt right takes and/or are making identical and/or borderling identical takes maybe it's time for some self reflection.
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Rian Johnson (the last Jedi) defends his vision of Luke Skywalker to a critical fan
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
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Having watched TFA and TLJ again this weekend, and TROS today, TLJ is most certainly not a poorly paced film. It's well paced, in fact. TFA and especially TROS are not.
I highly doubt that you're as flawless as your present yourself. And TLJ does not argue that you need to compare yourself to Luke or that you'd end up like Luke. I highly doubt you have the clout of someone that Luke would have as well, which is what the story is about, how does someone live up to the legend of Luke Skywalker.
I don't know if he was being sarcastic or not so I'll just say in general, would you be surprised? Look at so many people are reacting positively to "fan service : the film " after behaving like Rian stomped on all their toys, they feel owed something because... they like SW a lot?
My edit was too slow. Not saying I don't have a midlife crisis ahead of me but compared to my father and uncle who - in their late 60s now - are still regrettably infantile in many ways - I'm proud to say I've learned from their failures and have as a result matured more in a decade than they have in four. And short of suffering a stroke I don't see any reasonable way for me to regress back to where I was, let alone where they are. As a result my (deeply) personal interpretation of Star Wars and the Luke Skywalker character are somewhat at odds with Rian's interpretation.
That fans take makes sense from the angle of 'these are fundamentally fan movies that are just meant to make people happy and nothing more', but not so much from the 'star wars can be something more than it is' angle, which I think is what Rian tried to go for. If you're trying to draw upon how real people change, then you have to include a few different extremes. You need to include the people who grow, like Leia. You need to include the people who never change, like Han. And yes, you need to include the people who grow into a worse version of themselves, like Luke. Life changes us all, and it's just not always for the better. An amazing poor person can come into money and find its corrupting influence sees them lose every great thing they ever believed. Likewise, a loving rich individual can lose it all and turn to anger and despair because of it. People, as it turns out, don't follow predictable patterns. Predictable patterns like Star Wars movies, something I and many others could see Rian just didn't like.
In point of fact, it's the difference in who we are that helps TLJ be the rorscach test that it is. It's why, probably, TLJ will go on to be the only movie of the new trilogy that we'll reflect on as being more than the sum of its parts, whether we grow to love or despise it. I'm deeply sympathetic to the person who doesn't like TLJ, and why, but I'll only ever see their complaints of it as more telling to me about who they are and what they like then anything about the qualities of the film.
In point of fact, it's the difference in who we are that helps TLJ be the rorscach test that it is. It's why, probably, TLJ will go on to be the only movie of the new trilogy that we'll reflect on as being more than the sum of its parts, whether we grow to love or despise it. I'm deeply sympathetic to the person who doesn't like TLJ, and why, but I'll only ever see their complaints of it as more telling to me about who they are and what they like then anything about the qualities of the film.
The vast majority of stories "never demonstrate that people operate and think differently from our world." That's because their stories, and stories neither "realistic" or "unreal." To me Rian's argument here, which is the only thinh I'm really rebuking, is inherently flawed because of it. He uses "the story is meant to be realistic so your complaints are invalid" in the same way people use "the story is meant to be unrealistic so your complaints are invalid." Both are lazy cynical arguments that ignore the fact that stories are stories and not depictions of reality or unreality.
Though, really, with the amount of insults and offensive "implications" being thrown around here I'm really not sure this is something I want to continue further.
I rewatched TLJ hours before going into TROS, and as much as I was able to enjoy several things in TROS, it felt like night and day in terms of quality.
Luke gets SUCH great development. Just thinking about his last conversation with Leia, and how much hope and emotion it holds -- acknowledging his failures, apologizing for not being there sooner, returning with resolve to help her and the Resistance. And reassuring her, in her most hopeless moment, that no one's ever really gone (Han is still with them, Luke has come back to help, and there's still hope for Ben). Ugh, it's lovely and it hurts my heart.
Rian's trilogy is the only SW-related thing I'm looking forward to right now.
Luke gets SUCH great development. Just thinking about his last conversation with Leia, and how much hope and emotion it holds -- acknowledging his failures, apologizing for not being there sooner, returning with resolve to help her and the Resistance. And reassuring her, in her most hopeless moment, that no one's ever really gone (Han is still with them, Luke has come back to help, and there's still hope for Ben). Ugh, it's lovely and it hurts my heart.
Rian's trilogy is the only SW-related thing I'm looking forward to right now.
Then Maybe RJ should have made a single movie and not the middle movie to a trilogy.
Although I disagree, I can see your point. I would argue though that what Johnson came up with was reasonable for Luke's motivations given that JJ had already exiled him to the island. How was he going to explain him deserting everyone otherwise? People get mad about this plot line, but it was something that was handed to Johnson in the first place right? Maybe I'm missing something though.
There's also so much more to the Force in TLJ. I feel like Rey's know-nothing attempt to summarize it which Luke dismisses is actually what JJ thinks. Like the end of TFA, Rey is reminded the Force exists dueling Kylo and goes "Oh yeah!" and then just...wins, for some reason. The Force doesn't really mean anything in particularly there. Compare to to the lessons in TLJ and it's a stark contrast.
"Life. Death and decay...that feeds the new life. Warm. Cold. Peace. Violence. And between it all? Balance. And energy...a Force."
To say nothing of the subtext and commentary in other subplots of TLJ, wholly absent in TROS/TFA.
It wasn't written a bubble. This got approved by every player in charge of SW. Presumably because the original intention was to build on it. Fan service drivel end of a saga bullshit that RoS suffers from is clearly not the original direction no rians fault.
Not trying to come off as some paragon of perfection, was just a bit uncomfortable discussing certain matters of my private life. But in the interest of clarity I'll say this: I was diagnosed with adhd in my 20s and since then have regularly been in therapy and have been taking medication daily for almost 15 years, as well as other forms of treatment such as a year of neurobiofeedback, group therapy, life coaching etc.
Growing up I was a chronic liar, sarcastic, prone to strong mood swings and occasionally downright mean! My self image was extremely unstable and I had severe problems maintaining relationships.
To make a long story short I was burdened by many demons and I sincerely, unequivocally believe I have rid myself of them. Of course I'm human and make mistakes, there is always room to improve but the difference is so night and day sometimes I look back and can't believe it myself. Basically, in the past before the diagnosis and subsequent treatment there was essentially no way for me to learn from my mistakes - of which there were a great deal many, and very painful ones at that. Over the last 15 years thanks to treatment and lots of hard work I've finally been able to see my mistakes, own up to them and actually change my behavior. That in itself is an ability I didn't have before - not in any meaningful sense of the word, anyway.
It is very much a "leveling up" of my abilities, a hurdle I've crossed which I do not see myself regressing back to, short of dementia or suffering from a stroke.
I'm a very vocal TLJ critic, but I really appreciated Luke's entire portrayal and arc.
Seemed very natural to me, *shrug*
Although, I would have really loved if instead of being a dick to Kylo in their final confrontation, he would have killed him with condescending kindness. Something like, "I love you, kid." would have made him waaaay angrier/gotten under his skin. Would have also been another great moment to see Adam Driver perform the internal struggle/rage of his character.
Seemed very natural to me, *shrug*
Although, I would have really loved if instead of being a dick to Kylo in their final confrontation, he would have killed him with condescending kindness. Something like, "I love you, kid." would have made him waaaay angrier/gotten under his skin. Would have also been another great moment to see Adam Driver perform the internal struggle/rage of his character.
Why do people think that Luke would be above contemplating killing his nephew to prevent a genocide?
He spent much of the OT making snap decisions, demonstrating a pretty ambiguous moral code, ignoring the advice of his teachers and seems to believe nearly every problem can be solved with violence.
It's entirely in his nature to reach that decision. The most unrealistic part is that he didn't see it through.
He spent much of the OT making snap decisions, demonstrating a pretty ambiguous moral code, ignoring the advice of his teachers and seems to believe nearly every problem can be solved with violence.
It's entirely in his nature to reach that decision. The most unrealistic part is that he didn't see it through.
I feel you can really only say that it's reframing the narrative had TFA and TLJ been about Luke. Luke's arc can be looked at as a 5 act structure, certainly. I don't disagree with that. But I don't think it can be explained as reframing the narrative when he's no longer the narrative focal point. Either way, that's just a technical discussion.
When I say that Luke has a backslide, it doesn't conflict with the idea of a 5 act structure for his arc. It's just acknowledging (in a less technical expression) that his forward progress sees a set back before he progresses again and reaches the end of his story.
I think Mark Hamill was amazing as mid life crisis Luke, maybe I wouldn't have killed him off but Hamill was so charming and really well dipicted that transformation in his life.
And yet you're still not perfect, let alone have to deal with the burden of living up to a legend.
The funny thing is for how many problems people like to spin regarding Luke or how Mark Hamill hated what they did to him, it's probably up there as his best live performance... period. TLJ shows every shade of his acting chops, to jaded old teacher, reverting back to the OT "bumbling/presumptive" student when Yoda shows up, to finally showing back up at the end as the bad ass everyone hoped to see him be. His send off was perfect.
"Luke kind of forgot you're not supposed to murder your nephew in his sleep."
People will always lament that they didn't get to see force god angel Luke or whatever Luke lined up with their own headcanon. They will not accept a Luke who faced a failure of confidence later in life and didn't handle that failure well. It made the character much more relatable and inspiring to me.
That's irrelevant to whether RJ's take on Luke was bad or not.
He never claims that the story is realistic, he claimed that he wrote Luke as a human, which I mean, is true of everyone who ever wrote for Luke in the films. And furthermore, he made the argument to debunk the idea that Luke cannot be the way he is in TLJ. So like, I don't get your approach at all.
He contemplated it when he felt a fear that not doing so may cause a genocide.
Says some comic. Leaving the rest of us who just saw the movies, believing that it did indeed happen.
Omg exactly. That scene where Luke teaches Rey to feel the Force gives me the same awe that I got from Yoda's speech to Luke in Empire.
The major ways that Rian uses the Force in TLJ are in the service of character -- Luke projecting himself to Kylo to finally help the Resistance and confront his nephew, or Kylo and Rey connecting across the galaxy so they can talk to each other.
JJ uses it mostly for cool points, which is... fine. I always get hyped when Kylo does his Force freeze at the beginning of TFA. But it all feels very videogamey.
I did mostly like the Force healing in TROS though, since it played a part in some of the character moments. But then you've got the same Force connection that Rian set up SPECIFICALLY so Rey and Kylo could talk instead of battling, and it's used in TROS almost entirely for some cool lightsaber fights. Meh.
His "snap decisions" were when he was essentially a teenager and undisciplined. ROTJ Luke was disciplined and measured with his actions. The only rash moment, if you can even call it that, was using his anger to disable Darth Vader. But, that's in the middle of a fight against Vader and the Emperor with the Rebellion getting massacred outside, and a direct threat against his sister by a genocidal maniac.
Also, the advice of his teachers was wrong. Luke ultimately turned his father from the dark side and, until ROS, had destroyed the sith and restored the Republic.
Luke seeing a vision of Kylo and responding the way he did is completey different. I don't see anything in the OT films that say Luke is definitely capable of nearly murdering a loved one in their sleep over a vision.
A much better way of playing that scene out would be Luke witnessing a force bridge moment between Ben and Snoke. Him pledging himself to Snoke and the Dark Side and planning to do some evil deed. It would at least give something more to go on then a vision and would give Luke a real reason to confront Ben in a violent manner.
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Luke was rash to leave Dagobah both times. Luke was cocky and rash in his dealing with Jabba. Luke gave in and nearly fell to the Darkside in his fight with Vader in RotJ.
The context to Luke's reactionary momentary lapse of judgement in which he pulls out a Lightbsaber on his sleeping nephew is that he reads Kylo. He sees into him and can feel how completely the Darkside has taken hold of his extremely powerful star pupil. Luke had already been working with Ben for some time before that moment and IN that moment he sees that all his effort up to that point has done nothing to stop Snoke's influence. For Luke, who at that point thought himself a true Master to lose, what looked so completely, not only his pupil but his nephew would've been a extremely shocking experience. So for him to have that extreme momentary lapse isn't a bridge too far at all. And then for that momentary lapse to have resulted in cementing the loss of Ben shaking him to the core and making him doubt himself entirely also follows.
Leaving the first time, yes. He was still very much undisciplined. The second time, Yoda was dead, no? It's been a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but did he not tell Luke he had nothing left to teach him? Again, been a while since I've seen ROTJ.
As for Jabba, I don't see how that was cocky or rash. He even first attempted to bargain with Jabba and resolve the conflict peacefully. He could have gone in and massacred the place while they were all sleeping, but he didn't. That's a restrained response on his end.
Luke Jedi mind tricks the guards, speaks in a measured to Jabba and offers to resolve the issue diplomatically. He then defeats the rancor before being take above the sarlac pit. Even then, he offers to end the conflict peacefully. Jabba refuses and Luke demonstrates his fighting ability and controlled use of the force.
This whole opening sequence is to demonstrate Luke isn't that full-hearty and "rash" Luke from Empires, but one that has been doing a lot of growing up and training. Here, he is essentially a Jedi. The only thing he had left to do was prove himself face to face with Vader and the Emperor and he did just that.
He leaves Dagobah three times in two films. The second time he leaves Dagobah was off screen, as ROTJ starts with him going to Jabba's palace. But the insinuation is that post Empire, Luke went back to Dagobah and trained further/made a new Lightsaber.
While Luke does try to negotiate, he's not doing so in good faith. He's quite literally trying to intimidate the head of a major crime syndicate. He even has the audacity to try to JMT him. The whole reason he ends up in the Sarlacc Pit is because he didn't show any respect to Jabba in how he approached him.
The Jabba section of ROTJ serves to show that Luke has gotten stronger and plans further but that he's still rash and cocky. It illustrates that he's strong enough for the fight with Vader but sets the precedent for his anger taking control and nearly falling to the darkside.
And Ill just have to agree to disagree. I'll never accept a sane person, especially one as experienced with the force and visions as Luke, would have a monetary lapse of judgement in nearly killing his nephew. I sure as shit wouldn't half attempt to murder my nephew over a vision. Luke knows better than anybody, people can be brought back. Pulling out your light saber and lifting it over his head is a conscience decision, not a fight or flight type of response.
Incorrect. He wants Luke to progress, all good stories have character progression. The problem he, and many TLJ naysayers have, is Luke's character regressing. That's what Rian did in TLJ and it's what so many fans have issue with, especially given Luke's arc of progression in the OT.
Rian's story essentially has Luke not learning much at all in the OT, and that bothers many SW fans.
It wasn't a vision. It was a reading. And the context is different both in terms of Luke's age and experience and his influence on the person (Vader vs. Ben) leading up to the point of confrontation. But if you feel we're at an impasse I'm not going to press the discussion further. Agree to disagree is where we'll leave it.
Just because that's what Rian said doesn't make it a good argument against what I'm saying. No one here is saying they wanted Luke's character progression to be like a "video game bar" or any such nonsense.
This is all moot. Some of us love TLJ and some of us didn't like it, and no one here is going to change any opinions.
I feel nostalgic for a time when Star Wars fans could just love the franchise together instead of arguing over shit like this. :(
But it is a good argument. It being a good argument doesn't mean you have to agree with it. After all it's a Fantasy story so the characters don't *have* to work like human beings actually do. But what Johnson did with the character does make sense when contextualized with human growth and setbacks along the way.
Yep, Luke was always flawed to fuck and mostly lucky.
At some point, the kids who grew up with SW forgot about the human character arcs and just considered them to be plot devices and action figures. Hell, i'm half convinced that's the reason you see comments like "Man the Mandalorian sure FEELS like SW" despite having very little in terms of characterization and themes compared to all the scenes where Mando goes pew pew.
He made mistakes and still did that in TLJ.
You are right it wasn't in good faith, now that I remember it a bit(He certainly wasn't going to give him the droids). But, he wasn't exactly in a position to bargain with Jabba in any capacity anyway. Han had a massive bounty on his head, one that Luke couldn't cover. He really had no other choice but recover them that way. I suppose it could argued that the measured "Jedi way" would be to let them rot and focus on his mission, but I feel that really flies in the face of the message of the film.
Also, being a little cocky 20+ years ago isn't much of a flaw, certainly not one that would lead you to think he would be capable of nearly killing his nephew.
Ironically, Luke getting literally shook so hard from a vision of all of his friends and loved ones dying thanks to someone he mentored - indirectly making it his responsibility to bear - that he pulls out a weapon as a defensive instinct is way more believable than him going complete apeshit because Vader was all "haha if I lured Leia to the dark side would that be fucked up or what".
He's a Force User. He could've attempted to bargain for any number of things. He just really didn't attempt to bargain at all but instead to force his will on an extremely powerful individual.
The cockiness comes into play because he still carried that in his attempt to rebuild the Jedi himself.
So RJ took those elements of Luke's character in the OT that were never specifically curtailed and used them to fuel Luke's further arc.
Not really, Luke was at that point accepting his death. He already stated earlier that he was going to die there, with both of them. What triggered him was the idea of Leia falling to the dark side. With the rebellion getting crushed at that moment, it was a very real threat. It was a rash decision, yes, but the circumstances are completely different. Vader had already proved himself to be a maniac and is currently trying to convert Luke, so, Luke has every reason to believe his sister's life is in danger if he doesn't react.
Ben, on the other hand, has committed no atrocities. Luke has nothing to go in besides a vision or "reading" of what he may do in the future. Definitely doesn't warrant the same response, especially from a veteran Jedi Master who has no doubt seen many terrible visions. Also, he had seen Ben turning for a while. The vision wouldn't have been a huge surprise by that point.
What could he bargain with? Jabba cares about $$$, he can't conjure the cash out of thin air. Besides, at that point, it was personal between Han and Jabba. He had no plans of giving up his prize at any price.
He could quite easily could have negotiated for services to be rendered. With the primary negotiation being the details of such service. Jabba's issue with Han was somewhat personal but he's a crime lord. Business matters most and having a Force User's service would be incredibly valuable during a time when there are nearly zero Force Users in existence.
Jabba is a slave owner and a gangster. Services he would require would be against the Jedi code, not to mention surely against Luke's own moral code. Rendering any service to him would help prop up his slave empire.
Luke was fantastic in TLJ and his story arc is brilliant.
Suffering loss and doubt. Meeting Rey and regaining his confidence to teach Rey. Master Yoda teaching him one final lesson and finally his redemption in facing Kylo, in the most badass way.
A big complaint I've seen plenty of times is about Rey being perfect at everything (Mary Sue) yet when Luke still has some flaws, suddenly that's bad ?
For me, TLJ is the best movie in the sequel trilogy and I commend RJ for his take on Luke and Star Wars.
Suffering loss and doubt. Meeting Rey and regaining his confidence to teach Rey. Master Yoda teaching him one final lesson and finally his redemption in facing Kylo, in the most badass way.
A big complaint I've seen plenty of times is about Rey being perfect at everything (Mary Sue) yet when Luke still has some flaws, suddenly that's bad ?
For me, TLJ is the best movie in the sequel trilogy and I commend RJ for his take on Luke and Star Wars.