I enjoyed Kaladin's chapters--for the most part--though I did feel like Sanderson was directly addressing the reader on occasion with how heavy handed the seemingly bipolar nature of Kaladin's depression is. Which is better than not addressing it all but can still be a little tiring when it's stuff that you yourself are dealing with (which is also super personal so ymmv).
Shallan is where I was the most frustrated since she received entire chapters where the same exact thing kept happening with little to no changes. There were way too many chapters from her POV for how much they didn't move forward until the end. I definitely would have preferred less from her POV and more from Adolin as he takes notice of her behavior.
This book just made me like Adolin even more, and my hope for his bromance with Kaladin to continue to develop. They play off each other really well and I want this to continue.
I really loved this book. Adolin and Navani were MVPs but I really liked all POV, even Shallan that was pissing me off in the previous book improved here. The flashbacks were a little long but the ending made them worth it. All in all this series keeps getting better. Waiting 3 years for the next one will be awful. Will have to read the other cosmere books, only read Mistborn trilogy and Elantris.
Just finished, whew. I enjoyed it, but perhaps not as much as the previous books. I am regretting, perhaps, reading all the preview chapters as they came out (I started on Xmas Day). I found those chapters deeply boring and had no motivation to read them again. On the other hand, at least I got to the interesting bits more quickly.
My hot take is that it very like a very long not-epic fantasy. I don't mean that in a demeaning way. It's almost like a TV bottle episode in that large portions of the book literally take place in the same place. I do think it was longer than it needed to be though. It does make it more immersive, but ... sometimes it feels like you're just reading through stuff just to get to the next good bit.
The Venli and Eshonai chapters (past and present) were my favourite bits.
Why did Renarin give Taravagien the two spheres before Szeth came to him? his note says "im sorry"
but we know that Renarin can see future possibilities. So did he know that Taravangien would kill Rayse?
also reading other full thread spoilers, sounds like I need to read mistborn era 2?
It was.... okay I guess? Sanderson never fails to stick the landing but the journey before the destination became a bit of a snooze fest at times.
It's also becoming harder and harder to fully enjoy the books without being a cosmere lore nerd. I've read every single Cosmere novel to date (not including some of the novellas), but if you'd ask me to remember the plot of say, Warbreaker, it's just not going to happen. The books are too big to re-read.
So I've been reading this for a few weeks and am a bit into part 2. Was gonna just read the whole thing before making any comments, but uh, this is not what I expected.
I'm actually enjoying this the least of any Cosmere since the beginning/middle slog of Way of Kings. Part 1 of Rhythm was just pretty boring and inconsequential and didn't even end with a zinger like Parts usually end and get you hyped.
I don't know if it's just the lack of flashbacks, even though I've never been a big fan of the flashbacks in the first three books, or just all the science-y tech exposition, but it just feels really uninteresting?
I'm sure it'll pick up, but was kind of disappointing. Also the action stuff at the beginning went on way too long and didn't help.
Like yeah the first 1/3rd of Oathbringer was just like doing things in the tower, but it felt interesting and every chapter was a slow but steady progression towards something bigger.
Hoping this doesn't end up being my least favorite Stormlight book or something. Oathbringer pretty much exceeded all expectations and after 3-4 years of Cosmere reading I'm finally caught up and on the most current book, so was pretty hyped, but yeah it's just been a bit boring. I read like 1-2 chapters a night because nothing is really engaging beyond that currently.
I also wasn't super hot on Dawnshard. It was ok. Guess I just don't want to feel like right when I'm getting caught up on Cosmere Sanderson starts hitting a slump. I guess I'll see.
I'm enjoying this as in Sanderson books are always enjoyable on the page to read.
But goddamn, I am so, so disappointed in this book so far
Halfway through the book and it feels like half a book's potential has mostly been wasted. There's been a few interesting chapters but for the most part it's all just been so by the book predictable. Where are the surprises? The mysteries? The adventure?
In Oathbringer the trip in Shadesmar was an A+ amazing adventure into unknown territory with a group of very interesting characters. In Rhythm
Act II's journey in Shadesmar with Adolin/Shallen is a rote exercise with far less interesting characters where nothing much really happened until the last chapter.
Even in the first halves of Words of Radiance & Oathbringer there was a lot of adventure and excitement and interesting things. The Dalinar flashbacks in Oathbringer were pretty good as was the diplomacy stuff. Here this first half just feels like nothing really interesting is happening.
Hell, they take half the interesting characters in the series and ship them off to Azir to have a major battle completely offscreen.
Maybe right from the start when Sanderson did this should've been a red flag. It's like GRRM's AFFC/ADWD.
I'm figuring the back half of this book will pick up as Sanderson is always good as moving things towards an exciting and interesting climax, but man for a 1,200 page book I really wanted multiple acts of interesting surprises and half the book is gone at this point. Feels more like Way of Kings than Word of Radiance/Oathbringer. Maybe the last two books have set my expectations too high for the series.
The whole Act II thing with the tower invasion was basically setup from the start as it was going to happen and then hundreds of pages were spent just watching it play out with no real surprises or anything much interesting happening. Combined with the only other thing going on in this act being the Shadesmar trip which wasn't too interesting...
this was probably the least surprising/interesting act in a Stormlight book in several books. It was fine and entertaining but I want twists and surprises and cool lore stuff.
The interludes between Acts I -> II were more interesting than the acts, so hopefully these next interludes will be good and hopefully Act III starts picking up the story.
Even from the outset, the idea of Adolin/Shallen in Lasting Integrity trying to prove something to the Honorspren and Navani/Kaladin trying to subterfuge the tower occupation just continues to be a fairly uninteresting story setup.
I was really hoping all the tower stuff would be done at the end of Act II freeing Act III and beyond up to be dealing with more interesting storylines. Like how in Oathbringer Kholinar's attack was able to quickly change over and move on to the Shadesmar adventure.
Now I kind of feel like I gotta wait for Act III to resolve these two plotlines and that's another 200-300 pages, and then maybe, just maybe, the last 300-400 pages will be left to do something actually interesting.
Really hoping the back half gets amazing as soon as possible in this book. If not well, Book #5 in a few years should be interesting. In Mistborn set 2, Shadows of Self was a pretty uninteresting novel but then Bands of Mourning was a great adventure full of surprises, so maybe this book is just moving things through the motions to setup the big finale book for #5. But I still want really cool weird surprising stuff to happen in the back half of this book.
I'm enjoying this as in Sanderson books are always enjoyable on the page to read.
But goddamn, I am so, so disappointed in this book so far
Halfway through the book and it feels like half a book's potential has mostly been wasted. There's been a few interesting chapters but for the most part it's all just been so by the book predictable. Where are the surprises? The mysteries? The adventure?
In Oathbringer the trip in Shadesmar was an A+ amazing adventure into unknown territory with a group of very interesting characters. In Rhythm
Act II's journey in Shadesmar with Adolin/Shallen is a rote exercise with far less interesting characters where nothing much really happened until the last chapter.
Even in the first halves of Words of Radiance & Oathbringer there was a lot of adventure and excitement and interesting things. The Dalinar flashbacks in Oathbringer were pretty good as was the diplomacy stuff. Here this first half just feels like nothing really interesting is happening.
Hell, they take half the interesting characters in the series and ship them off to Azir to have a major battle completely offscreen.
Maybe right from the start when Sanderson did this should've been a red flag. It's like GRRM's AFFC/ADWD.
I'm figuring the back half of this book will pick up as Sanderson is always good as moving things towards an exciting and interesting climax, but man for a 1,200 page book I really wanted multiple acts of interesting surprises and half the book is gone at this point. Feels more like Way of Kings than Word of Radiance/Oathbringer. Maybe the last two books have set my expectations too high for the series.
The whole Act II thing with the tower invasion was basically setup from the start as it was going to happen and then hundreds of pages were spent just watching it play out with no real surprises or anything much interesting happening. Combined with the only other thing going on in this act being the Shadesmar trip which wasn't too interesting...
this was probably the least surprising/interesting act in a Stormlight book in several books. It was fine and entertaining but I want twists and surprises and cool lore stuff.
The interludes between Acts I -> II were more interesting than the acts, so hopefully these next interludes will be good and hopefully Act III starts picking up the story.
Even from the outset, the idea of Adolin/Shallen in Lasting Integrity trying to prove something to the Honorspren and Navani/Kaladin trying to subterfuge the tower occupation just continues to be a fairly uninteresting story setup.
I was really hoping all the tower stuff would be done at the end of Act II freeing Act III and beyond up to be dealing with more interesting storylines. Like how in Oathbringer Kholinar's attack was able to quickly change over and move on to the Shadesmar adventure.
Now I kind of feel like I gotta wait for Act III to resolve these two plotlines and that's another 200-300 pages, and then maybe, just maybe, the last 300-400 pages will be left to do something actually interesting.
Really hoping the back half gets amazing as soon as possible in this book. If not well, Book #5 in a few years should be interesting. In Mistborn set 2, Shadows of Self was a pretty uninteresting novel but then Bands of Mourning was a great adventure full of surprises, so maybe this book is just moving things through the motions to setup the big finale book for #5. But I still want really cool weird surprising stuff to happen in the back half of this book.
Yeah, I can see that comparison so far. It feels like an action book. Unfortunately for me the action in Cosmere is my least favorite part of it. I'm more interested in the story turns & character development.
Also I'm starting to feel like Kaladin doesn't work solo because in these books whenever it's focused on him and his internal struggles these books drag. When he's with others like the back half of Way of Kings Bridge Four or with the crew in Kholinar in Oathbringer and there is synergy his chapters are good, but the first half of WoK and first half of Rhythm drag for his stuff.
I also find Navani just ok as a viewpoint character and Venli has potential but feels like she's just existing to have a viewpoint with the Fused. I'd say the best viewpoint in the first half is Adolin and that's not a super high bar. Shallan is a great character but I don't like how the entire Act II is basically just her
looking for the spy
Meanwhile the interesting characters like Dalinar, Szeth, Targ, and minor ones like Lift, Renarin, Rock/Cord, Lopez are all MIA.
First half just seems kinda odd to nix half the cast and just focus on straight forward action adventures with a set plot concept and almost no, or very little, twists. Especially when the cast who are carrying it are less interesting.
I think Act II would've been better if we had an Azir viewpoint and the chapters would alternate between the action with one group & the other during the events to see the whole thing play out.
I'm 44% through RoW or at the start of Chapter 43.
Spoilers up to some point in Act II:
It has been a bit of a struggle for me so far. I've been reading it at a much slower pace than I did with the previous books.
Negatives: I think the distribution of characters and chapters has felt off to me. Sanderson is clumping together chapters from one locale without providing equal balance elsewhere. There has been a long section at Urithiru now that has been uninterrupted. I feel like I want to know what is going on in Azir/Emul or Lasting Integrity and to dole out the Urithiru stuff at a slower pace. It's burning me out.
As for character arcs, it feels like everyone is in a really dark place right now and there isn't a levity outlet like we normally get from the side characters in Bridge 4 or from Wit or from Lift. Getting stuck with Shallan, Adolin, Navani, Kaladin, and Venli has lead to a very dour experience at times.
I appreciate Kaladin's development but his struggles have been a slog so far when he isn't paired with more fun characters from Bridge 4. The expedition to Lasting Integrity felt like it took too long and wasn't that interesting. Shallan's split disorder being tested by a potential spy amongst her friends feels like it has taken up 50+ pages of this book and I'm not sure it needed to.
Positives: I have enjoyed learning more about the Fused through Venli. I'm glad that Sanderson put in a rough year jump to give the scope of the story to expand more organically. I appreciate what Sanderson is doing trying to create a more inclusive fantasy world with different viewpoints and hitting a broad range of issues that are normally glazed over in these types of books.
For all my complaining here I think I'm just having the same issues I had with the first half of Oathbringer and I ended up loving Oathbringer by the end.
Edit: Bebpo sounds like we are having similar thoughts so far! I didn't read your whole post there because I'm not quite up to where you are, I will do so when I finish Act II.
I'm 44% through RoW or at the start of Chapter 43.
Spoilers up to some point in Act II:
It has been a bit of a struggle for me so far. I've been reading it at a much slower pace than I did with the previous books.
Negatives: I think the distribution of characters and chapters has felt off to me. Sanderson is clumping together chapters from one locale without providing equal balance elsewhere. There has been a long section at Urithiru now that has been uninterrupted. I feel like I want to know what is going on in Azir/Emul or Lasting Integrity and to dole out the Urithiru stuff at a slower pace. It's burning me out.
As for character arcs, it feels like everyone is in a really dark place right now and there isn't a levity outlet like we normally get from the side characters in Bridge 4 or from Wit or from Lift. Getting stuck with Shallan, Adolin, Navani, Kaladin, and Venli has lead to a very dour experience at times.
I appreciate Kaladin's development but his struggles have been a slog so far when he isn't paired with more fun characters from Bridge 4. The expedition to Lasting Integrity felt like it took too long and wasn't that interesting. Shallan's split disorder being tested by a potential spy amongst her friends feels like it has taken up 50+ pages of this book and I'm not sure it needed to.
Positives: I have enjoyed learning more about the Fused through Venli. I'm glad that Sanderson put in a rough year jump to give the scope of the story to expand more organically. I appreciate what Sanderson is doing trying to create a more inclusive fantasy world with different viewpoints and hitting a broad range of issues that are normally glazed over in these types of books.
For all my complaining here I think I'm just having the same issues I had with the first half of Oathbringer and I ended up loving Oathbringer by the end.
Edit: Bebpo sounds like we are having similar thoughts so far! I didn't read your whole post there because I'm not quite up to where you are, I will do so when I finish Act II.
I finally finished this book. I consider Sanderson to be my favourite author, and I bought the book on release but I found it to be a real slog. I had to force myself to go back to it on repeated occasions after getting to a chapter, seeing who's viewpoint it was about - and then just putting the book down. Any other author I would have simply stopped reading but I have read everything produced by Sanderson and kept thinking the book is going to grab me ... but it never did.
For what it's worth, I think Rhythm of War does end strong though (like all the other stormlight books) but not the strongest of ends in the series so far.
I finally finished this book. I consider Sanderson to be my favourite author, and I bought the book on release but I found it to be a real slog. I had to force myself to go back to it on repeated occasions after getting to a chapter, seeing who's viewpoint it was about - and then just putting the book down. Any other author I would have simply stopped reading but I have read everything produced by Sanderson and kept thinking the book is going to grab me ... but it never did.
That sucks. If the book doesn't grab me in the back half I'm afraid I'm gonna end up in a similar spot.
I really, really liked Oathbringer, and so far this feels like a Storm of Swords -> A Feast for Crows all over again for ASOIAF comparison. Especially with the 3 year Cosmere release gap between books. Even similar in how AFFC suddenly cuts off half the viewpoint characters.
My concern at the midway point is that books #1-3 were smaller scale about these handful of characters and Sanderson generally handled it really well. Now he's transitioning to a larger scale story and he's struggling make it flow and work well while keeping it all connected. It's like there are big things going on but for the first half we're just seeing two small sides,
Shadesmar trip & Urithu
of what's going on in a very large scale world epic. That's why I enjoyed the transition viewpoint chapters between Act 1->2 and I'm looking forward to the ones now between Act 2->3 because seeing more of the world/characters is nice and sorely needed.
I really hope that Sanderson is getting some good feedback from all of people on this book so that the final book #5 ends up being really solid and giving readers/fans more what they want from start to finish in the book.
For what it's worth, I think Rhythm of War does end strong though (like all the other stormlight books) but not the strongest of ends in the series so far.
Yeah, I can't think of a single Cosmere book that doesn't end strong. Sanderson is great at pulling everything together. But given the size of these Stormlight books, it's better when he does that multiple times within a book (like a few mini-books) so you're not just plodding through 800 pages to get to the exciting/interesting last 300-400.
I really hope that Sanderson is getting some good feedback from all of people on this book so that the final book #5 ends up being really solid and giving readers/fans more what they want.
He spoke about it on a French podcast (with the translator voice over his, so it's useless if you don't speak French). I think the question was something like:
"do you think people will be frustrated because this fourth book is setting every thing in place for the big finale in the fifth book" but I need to hear it another time to be sure (and I don't know why, but my Internet is slower than a dead turtle tonight...).
I thought Way of Kings was pretty slow and a bit uninteresting but loved Words of Radiance because of all the setup, so maybe that's what'll happen here again for my tastes.
If someone speak French and wants to hear it, this was this podcast (it was scheduled by Le Livre de Poche, the french publisher of Sanderson with a translator doing her magic a couple of seconds after he spoke, so with her voice over his)
Brandon Sanderson ouvre la saison 2 de C'est Plus que de la SF ! Publié au Livre de Poche et traduit par Mélanie Fazi, Brandon Sanderson a vendu plus de 20 millions d’exemplaires des Archives de Roshar, une excellente saga de Fantasy. Rythme de Guerre, le 4eme volume de la saga vient juste de...
podcast.ausha.co
I'll try to hear it tomorrow to be sure, but downloading the mp3 at less than 10 kB/s isn't something I want to do this evening and I hope it'll be faster tomorrow.
I definitely disagree with the majority of posters here. I really disliked Oathbringer for how deeply slow it felt all the way to the climax in Kholinar. Rhythm of War opens up strong with
a time jump, a sweet aerial battle, a Kaladin twist, a new and interesting viewpoint with Navani, cross-lore with both Scadrial and Nalthis, and a great scene with Zahel. Plus the bar scene with Kaladin, Adolin, and Shallan was amazing character work, some of Sanderson's best.
It is very action heavy, especially in Parts 2 and 3, but there's tons of cool lore later in the book and, as usual, everything comes together in the end. It's the second best Stormlight book, IMO, behind WoR.
I definitely disagree with the majority of posters here. I really disliked Oathbringer for how deeply slow it felt all the way to the climax in Kholinar. Rhythm of War opens up strong with
a time jump, a sweet aerial battle, a Kaladin twist, a new and interesting viewpoint with Navani, cross-lore with both Scadrial and Nalthis, and a great scene with Zahel. Plus the bar scene with Kaladin, Adolin, and Shallan was amazing character work, some of Sanderson's best.
It is very action heavy, especially in Parts 2 and 3, but there's tons of cool lore later in the book and, as usual, everything comes together in the end. It's the second best Stormlight book, IMO, behind WoR.
In retrospect having finished Act 2, I think the opening act was pretty solid. I wasn't a big fan of the very long multi-part action opening at the time since I'm not big on action, but the lore stuff and setups were interesting. I liked the Zahel bit. Though I kinda feel like Sanderson is info exposition dumping too often as a crutch (his scene in Oathbringer with Wit at the bar was a good example of just suddenly info dumping lore).
I think my issues with Act 1 were too much action and too much science/tech info dumping. Otherwise like you said it's a strong open.
I think in comparison Act 2 here was just a kinda boring act. It's not terrible and was entertaining but there was very little new & interesting location or character-wise and it felt like going through the motions. Hopefully it's the only act I end up feeling this way about.
I do think in Act 2,
Spending so many pages on the Shallan spy guessing was a waste. Shallan is an interesting character and there's much more interesting things she can be doing other than being paranoid about a spy constantly for most of her chapters.
Also one thing for the premise of Act 1/2 kinda bugged me
So Dalinar is a tactical strategist. He is suspicious of old man T. He thinks this could be a trap in Azir and is being cautious.
That he doesn't even think leaving the tower mostly unguarded is a bad idea and that the trap could be pulling 90% of their forces away from the tower.
...that just bugged me. It felt out of character and unbelievable that after everything that's happened and the caution Dalinar & Navani would be completely blindsided to that.
I'd almost call it just bad writing to get the plot results Sanderson wants. Dalinar is not dumb and this makes him look like an idiot.
I don't know if this is a spoiler, and someone can tell me if it is, but I think it's worthwhile to keep your expectations in check for Rhythm of War.
Oathbringer increased the scale of the world significantly, and it's reasonable to expect that that scaling up would continue. But RoW does the opposite, and is much more of a character study/lore primer.
I enjoyed Kaladin's chapters--for the most part--though I did feel like Sanderson was directly addressing the reader on occasion with how heavy handed the seemingly bipolar nature of Kaladin's depression is. Which is better than not addressing it all but can still be a little tiring when it's stuff that you yourself are dealing with (which is also super personal so ymmv).
Since this is more active at the moment, I'll c/p my post from Cosmere thread
Just after I finished reading, I was very positive about it, probably because of.... THAT one thing near the end, but after I had some time to think on it, RoW is probably the weakest in the series. It's still good, but it really dragged, especially in Kaladin chapters. I get what Sanderson meant to do, but it feels like the book had to go through at least one more revision. He is famous for his productivity and work ethics, but I really wouldn't mind waiting a little bit more if it resulted in getting better books.
I don't know if this is a spoiler, and someone can tell me if it is, but I think it's worthwhile to keep your expectations in check for Rhythm of War.
Oathbringer increased the scale of the world significantly, and it's reasonable to expect that that scaling up would continue. But RoW does the opposite, and is much more of a character study/lore primer.
Nah, I don't consider it a spoiler and it helps keep expectations in check.
When I went into Oathbringer I'd read enough comments from people to keep expectations a bit lower since the book is divisive, but I ended it up loving it and it's my favorite book of the first three. And yeah going into Rhythm blind I had really high expectations which are obviously gonna bias me.
Also one thing for the premise of Act 1/2 kinda bugged me
So Dalinar is a tactical strategist. He is suspicious of old man T. He thinks this could be a trap in Azir and is being cautious.
That he doesn't even think leaving the tower mostly unguarded is a bad idea and that the trap could be pulling 90% of their forces away from the tower.
...that just bugged me. It felt out of character and unbelievable that after everything that's happened and the caution Dalinar & Navani would be completely blindsided to that.
I'd almost call it just bad writing to get the plot results Sanderson wants. Dalinar is not dumb and this makes him look like an idiot.
Nah, I think that this was actually really clever.
Rayse knew that Dalinar would be on the lookout for a trap, so he gave him an obvious target. Taravangian's enthusiasm for the mission was meant to be obvious setup, which neatly diverted attention away from the actual plant. Giving people a target of suspicion makes it a lot easier to do other stuff behind their back.
Also I haven't really followed the Stormlight community enough to know is this is a common sentiment, but I think Kaladin is the worst point of view character in Stormlight and it's a bit of a shame that he's essentially the main character of the series.
Most of the time he just sucks, he's a downer, he's always dealing with problems and everytime he seems to get past something he goes back to being a mess again. He's not very fun to read when it's just him in his head being the same old downer. And way too much of WoK is devoted to his flashbacks to explain what a boring downer miserable guy he is.
Like I'm exaggerating a bit, but compared to every other PoV character he is way less interesting. He works well in a group as the straight man that everyone plays gags off of and helps root the group dynamic. Whether it's Bridge 4 or the Parshman group, or Azure & co, or Adolin/Shallan, Kaladin chapters work when he's around others. But he just is not a very enjoyable character on his own and whenever the story focuses on him without a group dynamic it just slogs.
Again, it's kinda a shame that he's essentially the main character so he gets the most screen time PoVs. Like I get this Segment/series of Stormlight #1-5 is about his complex character struggles, but ehh while I think Sanderon is a fantastic writer, I don't think this kind of topic is his strength writing at all which is why the Kaladin stuff often slogs.
Nah, I think that this was actually really clever.
Rayse knew that Dalinar would be on the lookout for a trap, so he gave him an obvious target. Taravangian's enthusiasm for the mission was meant to be obvious setup, which neatly diverted attention away from the actual plant. Giving people a target of suspicion makes it a lot easier to do other stuff behind their back.
I still just don't buy it. Dalinar & Navani are too cautious.
Also if Sanderson had at least had the characters acknowledge it and have a one paragraph throw away where Dalinar says "but what if leaving this place unguarded is part of his plan?" and then after acknowledging it is dissuaded and moves on that would have been far more sensible and satisfying.
Just Daliner/Navani in their whole plan not even considering it for a moment is just way beyond what I would expect for these characters and personally to me felt very contrived.
I still just don't buy it. Dalinar & Navani are too cautious.
Also if Sanderson had at least had the characters acknowledge it and have a one paragraph throw away where Dalinar says "but what if leaving this place unguarded is part of his plan?" and then after acknowledging it is dissuaded and moves on that would have been far more sensible and satisfying.
Just Daliner/Navani in their whole plan not even considering it for a moment is just way beyond what I would expect for these characters and personally to me felt very contrived.
The thing is, over the past year, fused tried to attack the tower multiple times to no effect, because it neutralizes their abilities. Leaving a few dozen radiants would be enough if it wasn't for Raboniel's plan which no one could predict was plausible.
The thing is, over the past year, fused tried to attack the tower multiple times to no effect, because it neutralizes their abilities. Leaving a few dozen radiants would be enough if it wasn't for Raboniel's plan which no one could predict was plausible.
Except at the same time, the books 3 and the start of book 4 continue to reinforce that Dalinar and Navani haven't gotten the tower working and most of it is unknown.
I'm just saying Dalinar has been presented as an extremely cautious character and I think he'd be cautious of depending on the tower which is still very unknown and relying on that. I just don't buy it that he doesn't even consider for a second that it might be dangerous pulling the majority of the force away from the tower.
Also I haven't really followed the Stormlight community enough to know is this is a common sentiment, but I think Kaladin is the worst point of view character in Stormlight and it's a bit of a shame that he's essentially the main character of the series.
Most of the time he just sucks, he's a downer, he's always dealing with problems and everytime he seems to get past something he goes back to being a mess again. He's not very fun to read when it's just him in his head being the same old downer. And way too much of WoK is devoted to his flashbacks to explain what a boring downer miserable guy he is.
Like I'm exaggerating a bit, but compared to every other PoV character he is way less interesting. He works well in a group as the straight man that everyone plays gags off of and helps root the group dynamic. Whether it's Bridge 4 or the Parshman group, or Azure & co, or Adolin/Shallan, Kaladin chapters work when he's around others. But he just is not a very enjoyable character on his own and whenever the story focuses on him without a group dynamic it just slogs.
Again, it's kinda a shame that he's essentially the main character so he gets the most screen time PoVs. Like I get this Segment/series of Stormlight #1-5 is about his complex character struggles, but ehh while I think Sanderon is a fantastic writer, I don't think this kind of topic is his strength writing at all which is why the Kaladin stuff often slogs.
I don't have as many thoughts, but I'll just ineloquently say that I disagree. I appreciate the deep dive into what it's like living with depression, progression and regressions included.
While I agree that Rhythm of War is the weakest book in the SA, I still really liked it, I think what hurt it is the flashbacks are definitely the weakest of the 4, but overall I still think it was really good
While I agree that Rhythm of War is the weakest book in the SA, I still really liked it, I think what hurt it is the flashbacks are definitely the weakest of the 4, but overall I still think it was really good
Lol, and here I was being down on the book and the flashbacks haven't even started. I just assumed at this point that Book #4 wasn't going to have flashbacks.
While I can see why some people feel like Kaladin and Shallan focused stuff (over the course of the series) "drags," I disagree with the sentiment. These are really very character focused chapters and rather than be protag vs external struggles alone, it acknowledges and portrays that these protags are also facing internal struggles. And the nature of those internal struggles is as large, if not larger, than the external struggles at times. There were several times during Kaladin's chapters where he's describing what he's going through, what he's thinking that made him feel more "real" (for lack of a better term). Things that I could understand and identify with, to an extent. The fact that they don't just overcome these internal struggles and never face them to the same extent again humanizes them. It grounds these characters in ways and to extents that most novels never bother to even try.
I appreciate the time that's being dedicated to seeing and understanding all of these characters. It informs their actions greatly and gives better understanding as to how this story is unraveling.
Also I haven't really followed the Stormlight community enough to know is this is a common sentiment, but I think Kaladin is the worst point of view character in Stormlight and it's a bit of a shame that he's essentially the main character of the series.
Most of the time he just sucks, he's a downer, he's always dealing with problems and everytime he seems to get past something he goes back to being a mess again. He's not very fun to read when it's just him in his head being the same old downer. And way too much of WoK is devoted to his flashbacks to explain what a boring downer miserable guy he is.
Like I'm exaggerating a bit, but compared to every other PoV character he is way less interesting. He works well in a group as the straight man that everyone plays gags off of and helps root the group dynamic. Whether it's Bridge 4 or the Parshman group, or Azure & co, or Adolin/Shallan, Kaladin chapters work when he's around others. But he just is not a very enjoyable character on his own and whenever the story focuses on him without a group dynamic it just slogs.
Again, it's kinda a shame that he's essentially the main character so he gets the most screen time PoVs. Like I get this Segment/series of Stormlight #1-5 is about his complex character struggles, but ehh while I think Sanderon is a fantastic writer, I don't think this kind of topic is his strength writing at all which is why the Kaladin stuff often slogs.
While I can see why some people feel like Kaladin and Shallan focused stuff (over the course of the series) "drags," I disagree with the sentiment. These are really very character focused chapters and rather than be protag vs external struggles alone, it acknowledges and portrays that these protags are also facing internal struggles. And the nature of those internal struggles is as large, if not larger, than the external struggles at times. There were several times during Kaladin's chapters where he's describing what he's going through, what he's thinking that made him feel more "real" (for lack of a better term). Things that I could understand and identify with, to an extent. The fact that they don't just overcome these internal struggles and never face them to the same extent again humanizes them. It grounds these characters in ways and to extents that most novels never bother to even try.
I appreciate the time that's being dedicated to seeing and understanding all of these characters. It informs their actions greatly and gives better understanding as to how this story is unraveling.
Fair enough. I guess just for me I don't think Sanderson is a great deep character writer. I read lots of non-fantasy books that are more character drama pieces and the characters there feel the realness that you're describing. Whereas the struggles of these characters in Cosmere feel surface level attempt to spend a lot of pages doing a deep psychological dive without actually succeeding and so there isn't the payoff of really good internal character struggles but at the same time lot of pages are spent on it hurting the pacing usually.
As a writer I think Sanderson's strengths are his world building, mystery building, exciting twists & turns and pulling lots of plotlines together in satisfying ways. Also personally I like his humor a lot (I've noticed his humor is very YMMV with fans) and find him to be the best fantasy humor writer since Terry Pratchett. My favorite Cosmere characters are Lift and Wax for that reason alone.
Honestly like a top5 scene in Stormlight #1-3 for me has been Oathbringer's viginette flashback of Dalinar trying to find a knife to eat his steak while becoming more and more irritated and he ends up killing an assassin and then using his blade to finally eat his steak. That was a hilariously perfect skit that plays to all the strengths of Sanderson's quirky character writing.
I think his character development is his weakest area. I love his characters, but I don't think of them as very deep. More quirky and interesting than deep & relatable & real.
Fair enough. I guess just for me I don't think Sanderson is a great deep character writer. I read lots of non-fantasy books that are more character drama pieces and the characters there feel the realness that you're describing. Whereas the struggles of these characters in Cosmere feel surface level attempt to spend a lot of pages doing a deep psychological dive without actually succeeding and so there isn't the payoff of really good internal character struggles but at the same time lot of pages are spent on it hurting the pacing usually.
As a writer I think Sanderson's strengths are his world building, mystery building, exciting twists & turns and pulling lots of plotlines together in satisfying ways. Also personally I like his humor a lot (I've noticed his humor is very YMMV with fans) and find him to be the best fantasy humor writer since Terry Pratchett. My favorite Cosmere characters are Lift and Wax for that reason alone.
Honestly like a top5 scene in Stormlight #1-3 for me has been Oathbringer's viginette flashback of Dalinar trying to find a knife to eat his steak while becoming more and more irritated and he ends up killing an assassin and then using his blade to finally eat his steak. That was a hilariously perfect skit that plays to all the strengths of Sanderson's quirky character writing.
I think his character development is his weakest area. I love his characters, but I don't think of them as very deep. More quirky and interesting than deep & relatable & real.
I didn't say that I thought the characters deep. Or even relatable.
I agree with what you mention are his strengths. I'll also agree that he doesn't tend to do deep character dives in the sense that his characters don't often get a lot of time to be fully realized as well rounded and complex. However that doesn't mean that what he's done with his characters (particularly his Cosmere characters) isn't worth crediting.
I'm not saying that any of his characters are perfect or that they're mirror-accurate in their presentations of their struggles. I'm saying that I appreciate the time and dedication to portraying those struggles to the best of his ability and that there were moments where I found the way Kaladin described his struggles as relatable. Very few authors even attempt it, let alone find moments where it can feel relatable. Personally, I found that valuable in and of itself. Beyond that though, I appreciate that Sanderson is taking the time to try to realize these characters on a deeper, less common-trope level. All without sacrificing the potency of his strengths.
I feel like when people read Stormlight and talk about moments where it "drags," it's not that the novel actually drags but that it "drags" in the context of their expectations for his writing. And peoples personal perceptions of that is perfectly fine for them to feel. There's nothing wrong with that. I just feel like people are too quick to say it's "bad" or that it makes the novel/story "suffer" when what they really mean is that it's not meeting their expectations and they wanted something different.
To use a rather extreme (in comparison) example... Adam Sandler and Punch Drunk Love. A lot of Sandler fans vehemently rejected that movie. I saw several people walk out of the theater angry because it didn't meet their expectations. And Sandler's dramatic portrayal in that dramatic movie isn't perfect but it *was* good. Now, the negative reaction to certain Kaladin and Shallan chapters is not so extreme as Angry. And the depth Sanderson hits with them isn't so extreme a departure as Sandler in Punch Drunk Love. But I see the similarity in a macro-perspective as far as it's a negative reaction to an expectation.
Apologies to anyone who feels my emphasis is over done in this post. I feel like perhaps my meaning isn't being conveyed clearly and as I don't know if I can express my intent in a more clear and widely understood way, I'm using the format tools as a bit of a helper. If that makes sense.
Apologies to anyone who feels my emphasis is over done in this post. I feel like perhaps my meaning isn't being conveyed clearly and as I don't know if I can express my intent in a more clear and widely understood way, I'm using the format tools as a bit of a helper. If that makes sense.
I do like what Sanderson does or tries to do with the characters and appreciate that. I think the whole concept behind Radiants in Stormlight where they are essentially all broken/damaged people because they have to be somewhat broken to let the spren in (I forgot the actual description in oathbringer) makes for a very interesting cast of what in the broader sense is a superhero team story.
It's doesn't always work, but it's a nice direction and adds a lot to the characters and sometimes brings very human moments.
I honestly don't think the character stuff is what "drags" in the books. I thought the flashbacks in Way of Kings dragged and some of the slave/bridge stuff because at times I think it gets a bit repetitive and scenes are kind of doing the same thing that early scenes had already done for the character. For example in Act II of Rhythm of War, Shallan's PoV
The worrying about the spy and setting up traps is done several times over the Act. I have no issue with showing Shallan's mindset of these worries, but it feels a bit repetitive. Same with some of Kaladin's dynamics with his Father. How many times do they butt heads over and over with the same argument where his dad sees him as a healer and dismisses his view of protecting people through action & strength if necessary?
And with Shallan withdrawing within herself about the past, it happens so many times it can get a little "drag" feeling even if it's realistic that she would continue to withdraw.
Also fwiw, I'm a lot less negative/hard on this then I come off as. I'm still enjoying this book a lot and I like Kaladin as a character (even if I do think the other PoV characters are even more interesting). I didn't get a lot of sleep last night because at the end of Act II I couldn't put the book down and read until 3-4am. So I still get pretty into Cosmere books as every act concludes and things come together. I'm just being a nitpick because I want every act in every book to blow me away and be amazing, which I admit is a bit unrealistic :P
To Sanderson's credit, out of the like 15 books & novellas in Cosmere, I've only actually not liked two in the end. All the rest I either like or love by the end so I'm not gonna complain. Also the books change so much every entry even if a book doesn't work for you, the next one might blow you away.
Stormlight goes even further with their length and separate acts where part of a book might not work for you but then another part may be amazing. So tldr; I should post less and get back to reading and see how the rest plays out :P
I don't have as many thoughts, but I'll just ineloquently say that I disagree. I appreciate the deep dive into what it's like living with depression, progression and regressions included.
