Rhianna Pratchett didn't want to focus on Lara's dad in Rise of the Tomb Raider, Jill Murray neither in Shadow of the Tomb Raider

Farlander · Mar 4, 2022

I suppose news of the 'it surprises nobody' variety, didn't find it shared here yet.

I always found the sudden focus on Lara's dad weird and uncharacteristic, especially considering that a big part of Tomb Raider 2013's arc was about Lara getting OUT of her father's shadow to forge her own path. And then suddenly it became really dad-focused in the sequels, no wonder it was a request from above.

Sigh, this is why we can't have nice things.

Khanimus · Mar 4, 2022

Suits being the most uncreative people and trying to force that nonsense on actual storytellers.

"We gotta make it about Lara's dad!"

"We're going to get into the mystery of Spider-Man's parents!"

"People really want to know about Rey's parents!"

No one gives a shit about your parentage drama. It's not an interesting sequel hook. Stop it.

Vic20 · Mar 4, 2022

What does her pa do?

The_Iceman2288 · Mar 4, 2022

I think in the last decade a bunch of game directors became dads and decided we should all suffer because of it.

Farlander · Mar 4, 2022

The_Iceman2288 said:
I think in the last decade a bunch of game directors became dads and decided we should all suffer because of it.

Though I love the new God of War, it is very telling that the motivation behind a lot of its concepts was "Oh shit, we're all dads now, we can't make games as immature as the previous ones!"

seroun · Mar 4, 2022

The_Iceman2288 said:
I think in the last decade a bunch of game directors became dads and decided we should all suffer because of it.

It does really seem so. Like, I don't wanna shame any devs, but it's pretty tiring that every story of young women has her dad (or equivalent male parental figure) having a pretty big role. It felt super weird in Tomb Raider when I played those 2 since the saga has always been well, just about her and her shenanigans.

doops. · Mar 4, 2022

Khanimus said:
"People really want to know about Rey's parents!"

Not to start yet another firestorm but that's one thing I always really appreciated about The Last Jedi. The answer just being "nobodies idk who cares lol".

And then Rise of Skywalker happened...

Phellps · Mar 4, 2022

It wasn't good in Tomb Raider, and it certainly didn't get any better in the sequels. Just go back to the original bio, she never gave a fuck about her family. They literally disowned her lol

Blade24070 · Mar 4, 2022

So they cut out the potential lesbian love interest and gave Lara daddy issues. Great.

Dead Man Typing · Mar 4, 2022

That's a real shame.
I like those games but yeah, I didn't care about her dad beyond the simple motivation in the first reboot game of trying to solve a mystery he left behind.

They really hampered Lara's character by making her so obsessed with her dad's other mysteries instead of her finding her own obsessions.

Hopefully it's behind them for whatever comes next.

emperor bohe · Mar 4, 2022

Whenever Tomb Raider comes back, I hope it's like the original game with minimal story (just cutscenes between levels). Just let us explore atmospheric and borderline creepy tombs with close to zero human enemies.

To be fair I haven't played Rise and Shadow so I dunno if they were a step in the that direction gameplay wise, but the 2013 reboot was not it lol. Did the sequel games have someone bickering at you via comms too?

Khanimus · Mar 4, 2022

The_Iceman2288 said:
I think in the last decade a bunch of game directors became dads and decided we should all suffer because of it.

Farlander said:
Though I love the new God of War, it is very telling that the motivation behind a lot of its concepts was "Oh shit, we're all dads now, we can't make games as immature as the previous ones!"

Genesius · Mar 4, 2022

Khanimus said:
Suits being the most uncreative people and trying to force that nonsense on actual storytellers.

"We gotta make it about Lara's dad!"

"We're going to get into the mystery of Spider-Man's parents!"

"People really want to know about Rey's parents!"

No one gives a shit about your parentage drama. It's not an interesting sequel hook. Stop it.

Producers desperately wanting to be creatives is a tale as old as time.

nsilvias · Mar 4, 2022

idk how you take a previously badass character and then infantilize her repeatedly with daddy issues.

doops. · Mar 4, 2022

The_Iceman2288 said:
I think in the last decade a bunch of game directors became dads and decided we should all suffer because of it.

I personally think that A Plague Tale: Innocence is a great antidote to this trope. Makes for a killer double feature with The Last of Us 1.

JasonV · Mar 4, 2022

Does anyone have any notion why parentage is such a common theme is popular media? Is it because literally everyone has parents so its an easy way to make the protagonist relatable? Is it something else?

Like someone said above, no one gives a shit about Reys parents.

RPGam3r · Mar 4, 2022

Khanimus said:
Suits being the most uncreative people and trying to force that nonsense on actual storytellers.

"We gotta make it about Lara's dad!"

"We're going to get into the mystery of Spider-Man's parents!"

"People really want to know about Rey's parents!"

No one gives a shit about your parentage drama. It's not an interesting sequel hook. Stop it.

Going to disagree on the Rey example. In that fiction parentage has a bigger likelihood of being interesting to the universe.

Khanimus · Mar 4, 2022

RPGam3r said:
Going to disagree on the Rey example. In that fiction parentage has a bigger likelihood of being interesting to the universe.

Boy that sure worked out wonderfully, didn't it

Farlander · Mar 4, 2022

JasonV said:
Does anyone have any notion why parentage is such a common theme is popular media? Is it because literally everyone has parents so its an easy way to make the protagonist relatable? Is it something else?

Like someone said above, no one gives a shit about Reys parents.

Making a character an orphan is the easiest way to create drama and making a quest to find out the truth about their parents is the easiest way to create mystery.

LumberPanda · Mar 4, 2022

JasonV said:
Does anyone have any notion why parentage is such a common theme is popular media? Is it because literally everyone has parents so its an easy way to make the protagonist relatable? Is it something else?

Like someone said above, no one gives a shit about Reys parents.

In gaming, chasing TLoU1.

DiceyRobot · Mar 4, 2022

JasonV said:
Does anyone have any notion why parentage is such a common theme is popular media? Is it because literally everyone has parents so its an easy way to make the protagonist relatable? Is it something else?

Like someone said above, no one gives a shit about Reys parents.

These decisions are dictated by "suits from above", who are typically rich white men, who typically come from rich white families. Their dads are usually important people, so they grow up under a considerable shadow. Makes sense they'd develop daddy issues and assume everyone is like this.

reclaimerzzzzz · Mar 4, 2022

RPGam3r said:
Going to disagree on the Rey example. In that fiction parentage has a bigger likelihood of being interesting to the universe.

Only if you're a Skywalker, then it's a guarantee.

RPGam3r · Mar 4, 2022

Farlander said:
Though I love the new God of War, it is very telling that the motivation behind a lot of its concepts was "Oh shit, we're all dads now, we can't make games as immature as the previous ones!"

It's almost like people change with their life experiences or something.

RPGam3r · Mar 4, 2022

Khanimus said:
Boy that sure worked out wonderfully, didn't it

I said "likelihood" for a reason, lol.

OSHAN · Mar 4, 2022

JasonV said:
Does anyone have any notion why parentage is such a common theme is popular media? Is it because literally everyone has parents so its an easy way to make the protagonist relatable? Is it something else?

Dyle · Mar 4, 2022

I'm not sure there's a good way to write around the inherent challenge of having to justify all these massive earthshattering discoveries, from my read of the games her dad is mostly there to allow her to stand on the shoulders of his career. Without some figure like that all of the once-in-a-lifetime discoveries would probably feel too silly and unrealistic to be taken seriously

Hoggle · Mar 4, 2022

I'm not sure if it's because of the original movies, but stop it. Lara's parents died in a plane crash and Lara is the reason she's great, not because she's "a Croft".

Wil348 · Mar 4, 2022

Is Tom Braider dad again or can Crystal Dynamics recover?

Tobor · Mar 4, 2022

Issues with parents is a universal condition, understood by literally every human on earth.

Was Shakespeare the result of corporate meddling? I mean come on.

That said, I agree that ideally writers should be able to work on what they want to work on, but that still is going to lead to stories involving parents.

EDIT: I'm not defending stupid stories about parents, just stating it's not a surprise it's often a focus.

Khanimus · Mar 4, 2022

RPGam3r said:
I said "likelihood" for a reason, lol.

They had an answer - "it doesn't matter what your parentage is, that doesn't define who you are and what you can be". And then they turned around and said "actually, eugenics!"

Rey's parentage didn't matter. They had something perfectly uplifting right there. Just like Lara's parentage doesn't matter. It doesn't make her more interesting or improve the experience of her somersaulting in tombs or firing guns at dinosaurs. Going "ACTUALLY IT'S ABOUT DADS AND HOW MUCH SHE LOVES HER DAD!" does not enhance these characters.

JasonV · Mar 4, 2022

MushroomSamba said:
These decisions are dictated by "suits from above", who are typically rich white men, who typically come from rich white families. Their dads are usually important people, so they grow up under a considerable shadow. Makes sense they'd develop daddy issues and assume everyone is like this.

I was thinking along those lines. It represents a very narrow and specific social and class experience.

For the vast majority of people their parents obviously have an impact on their life, but normal people aren't financed for life by their parents. And our parents don't loom large over every decision.

I suppose this is why it was impossible to imagine Reys parents being "nobodies." I think a certain type of person just cannot conceive of someone significant not having "significant" parents.

Zebesian-X · Mar 4, 2022

Tobor said:
Issues with parents is a universal condition, understood by literally every human on earth.

Was Shakespeare the result of corporate meddling? I mean come on.

That said, I agree that ideally writers should be able to work on what they want to work on, but that still is going to lead to stories involving parents.

EDIT: I'm not defending stupid stories about parents, just stating it's not a surprise it's often a focus.

Right but this thread is about 2 specific examples where the story does in fact seem to have been influenced by corporate meddling

Khanimus said:

LOL holy shit

ciddative · Mar 4, 2022

Sucks that it was dictated from above, that level of narrative meddling is no good.
The writing in Rise was still god awful top to bottom.

Farlander · Mar 4, 2022

RPGam3r said:
It's almost like people change with their life experiences or something.

Sure, and there's nothing wrong with that, but ignoring suggestions/concepts until it becomes part of YOUR experience has been a sadly prominent MO in the industry and that shouldn't be the case. Which isn't to say that everybody who's done that does it out of malice or anything, but it's a clear sign that something needs to be changed in the creative culture (and corporate culture as well, like in the OP example).

RPGam3r · Mar 4, 2022

Khanimus said:
They had an answer - "it doesn't matter what your parentage is, that doesn't define who you are and what you can be". And then they turned around and said "actually, eugenics!"

Rey's parentage didn't matter. They had something perfectly uplifting right there. Just like Lara's parentage doesn't matter. It doesn't make her more interesting or improve the experience of her somersaulting in tombs or firing guns at dinosaurs. Going "ACTUALLY IT'S ABOUT DADS AND HOW MUCH SHE LOVES HER DAD!" does not enhance these characters.

I don't care about the loving parent part. I don't think normal human with normal ass parents fiction is the same as Jedi/Sith with potential Jedi/Sith parentage. They're not equivalent and in the latter case I do have more interest in the parents and it does have the potential to enhance the characters for me.

medyej · Mar 4, 2022

The_Iceman2288 said:
I think in the last decade a bunch of game directors became dads and decided we should all suffer because of it.

Yup, the dadifcation of video games has been embarrassingly transparent.

PlanetSmasher · Mar 4, 2022

Khanimus said:
Suits being the most uncreative people and trying to force that nonsense on actual storytellers.

"We gotta make it about Lara's dad!"

"We're going to get into the mystery of Spider-Man's parents!"

"People really want to know about Rey's parents!"

No one gives a shit about your parentage drama. It's not an interesting sequel hook. Stop it.

Yup. It really is just the worst kind of story nugget for developers or filmmakers to get stuck on. We don't care about dead people we never see and can't interact with.

Focus on the people who actually exist in the story in the now, rather than agonizing about ghosts.

The_Iceman2288 said:
I think in the last decade a bunch of game directors became dads and decided we should all suffer because of it.

I call it Ben Kucherification. There was a period in Polygon a couple years ago where Kuchera, without fail, in almost every article he wrote, would say some variant of "SPEAKING AS A FATHER", as if being a dad gave him some great insight into the hidden workings of the world that other people weren't privy to. I feel like so many aging game developer guys are in the same spot where they're new or somewhat-new dads who spend a lot of time agonizing internally about working long hours and not being able to see their kids very often, and as a result we have to deal with endless ruminations about fatherhood from them.

Lord Fanny · Mar 4, 2022

JasonV said:
Does anyone have any notion why parentage is such a common theme is popular media? Is it because literally everyone has parents so its an easy way to make the protagonist relatable? Is it something else?

Like someone said above, no one gives a shit about Reys parents.

Might as well ask why such a common theme in media is coming of age stories. Like, I don't see how that doesn't answer itself

dippa · Mar 4, 2022

Pratchett's spoken about Rise before, specifically wanting to have Lara's story revolve around PTSD rather than her dad.

From an interview on Kotaku Australia:

In Rise of the Tomb Raider, Pratchett would have preferred to play on Lara's PTSD a lot more. Instead of returning to her father's research, Pratchett would have rather Lara's curiosity and need to find answers been the main motivation.

"I would have liked to have done things like playing more with her PTSD, maybe having things like twisted versions of sequences of the first game that you have to replay, because she's always replaying them in her head, and they end in different ways that you didn't see in the first game, and trying to reflect aspects of PTSD," she said. "But that was something that [Crystal Dynamics] decided not to follow, and I'm not in charge of anything like that, so it's just kind of my fantasy musings."

"I would have rather … [Lara] wanted to find out if there were other things in the world if she'd really seen and witnessed what she had, that it wasn't a hallucination brought on by dehydration, that she really had uncovered secrets about the world, and she needed to find more evidence of that."

Tobor · Mar 4, 2022

Zebesian-X said:
Right but this thread is about 2 specific examples where the story does in fact seem to have been influenced by corporate meddling

Yeah, fair enough. There were some questions about why parenting is common, and I was responding to those.

PlanetSmasher · Mar 4, 2022

dippa said:
Pratchett's spoken about Rise before, specifically wanting to have Lara's story revolve around PTSD rather than her dad.

From an interview on Kotaku Australia:

I'm not sure I like the idea of portraying LARA CROFT as a broken trauma victim, but this is still 1000% better than "DAD! DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!"

Arthoneceron · Mar 4, 2022

What's the opinion of Toby Gard on this?

Uzzy · Mar 4, 2022

PlanetSmasher said:
I'm not sure I like the idea of portraying LARA CROFT as a broken trauma victim, but this is still 1000% better than "DAD! DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!"

Yeah, it'd have been a lot more interesting. Not sure they could have done it right, but the attempt would at least have been interesting.

The very early trailers for ROTTR showed Lara talking to a psychologist, and there's audio logs of her sessions in game, so some of that remains I guess. But yep gotta chase after her dad I guess. And cut out the love interest Sam in the process too, as mentioned above.

808s & Villainy · Mar 4, 2022

Khanimus said:

They ain't wrong lol

Farlander · Mar 4, 2022

dippa said:
Pratchett's spoken about Rise before, specifically wanting to have Lara's story revolve around PTSD rather than her dad.

From an interview on Kotaku Australia:

So what's interesting about all this is that the original Rise of the Tomb Raider announcement trailer was clearly based on those original concept.

I was really intrigued when I saw that trailer and the final product was nothing like it.

Fisty · Mar 4, 2022

RPGam3r said:
Going to disagree on the Rey example. In that fiction parentage has a bigger likelihood of being interesting to the universe.

Not when it's a story we already saw 30 years prior with tons of more interesting plot threads to follow

LumberPanda · Mar 4, 2022

RPGam3r said:
Going to disagree on the Rey example. In that fiction parentage has a bigger likelihood of being interesting to the universe.

That's why in Episode 8 it's so interesting and meaningful that Rey comes from nothing. It really shows how out of balance the force was that people out of the Skywalker and Palpatine lines were becoming much more force sensitive than before.

I wonder how they'll follow up on making a sequel to that movie, there is so much to explore there.

Futaleufu · Mar 4, 2022

It was your work to make the plot interesting, if you couldn't, well...

Karateka · Mar 4, 2022

Even Indiana Jones has a story where he is defined by his dad. I think it's fine to have one entry in the series be that way. I haven't played past the first tomb raider reboot game however so I don't know how bad it goes in on the angle.

inpHilltr8r · Mar 4, 2022

my gut says this is going to be the game directors decision, not production, not publishing

publishing would have said "make another tomb raider, like the last one that sold well"
direction says "ooh, how can I insert myself into the narrative?" quietly to itself, while sleeping

Rhianna Pratchett didn't want to focus on Lara's dad in Rise of the Tomb Raider, Jill Murray neither in Shadow of the Tomb Raider

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