This is exactly what I expected and is in no way unreasonable in Star Wars
Controlling it by wiring in
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Rewatching Star Wars 4-6: TLJ got Luke Right.
- Thread starter Drek
- Start date
Come on guys. The first thing Kylo says after they blow the door and Finn and Rose are lying helpless at their feet is no quarter, no prisoners. Just admit its a goofy detail that doesn't affect the larger story. I mean it's impossible for Rose to be there anyway. They're all flying full speed at the cannon, Rose and the rest turn around when Poe gives the order and start back toward the base and yet, through movie magic, Rose is able to turn around again, and catch all the way up to Finn where she can ram him from the side. It doesn't make any sense, but it doesn't really matter either.
What? Luke the exceptional pilot powered by the force who WAS seconds away from death until Han saved him?
Why do you feel the need to rewrite the OT to prop up the ST?
I never once argued that it's unreasonable to find it as goofy or clunky, I've already criticized it myself in the past and think it is to some degree. Having said that, there's also an explanation as to why they weren't attacked too, and maybe that's not good enough for some, and that's also fine.
But it's not a plot hole, which that poster was has been arguing breathlessly for the past few days. He keeps misunderstanding what a plot hole actually is.
And if people are going to dissect TLJ in this manner, they'd better be doing it with all other SW films in good faith, or at least accept the simple fact that very best entries don't even come close in regard to holding up against this level of scrutiny.
Cuz at the end of the day you can tear down any SW film in the same way. I mean the core of the franchise is a space fantasy about wielding a magic power that people harness for unknown reasons to do incredible things. So I find it extremely disingenuous to criticize TLJ on this level. Nothing in the film itself is outside the believability we see in EP1-7.
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Minor illogical or impossible nitpicks are plot holes. Plot holes don't have to be massive story breaking things. You can probably find minor plot holes like that in near any film, it's just that it doesn't matter really.
Finn/Rose not being attacked is not a plot hole lol. I just explained in detail why it's not. There's nothing about it that makes for an impossible or contradictory event.
People keep conflating nitpicks with plot holes and it's pretty annoying
It literally contradicts Kylo's orders he gives right after the crash. You said Kylo doesn't order them to attack a speeder, when the whole reason Poe turns them around is that the FO is shooting down all of their speeders. The whole idea of "well maybe they didn't notice or were too scared to say anything" is kind of ridiculous. If you have to jump through so many hoops to come up with a "logical" reason why it happens the way it does then it's probably a clue that's it doesn't really make much sense.
It's not really jumping through a lot of hoops, and again, I already said that it's clunky.
Kylo was talking about when they get inside of the base. All of the FO's focus is on this, not a two straggling junk scraps remaining who didn't retreat like everyone else.
It doesn't contradict his orders.
Yeah, they were shooting at the resistance because all of them were outside attacking the FO, but then they retreated back inside of the base, where the FO was prepared to attack them anyway, which is why they brought their canon.
Again.. this is not a plot hole. It doesn't contradict anything in the story.
Fair enough. We both agree its clunky and ultimately doesn't mean much.
All the points raised by OP are good ones. I do feel that Luke in TLJ is different though. My biggest problems were that he tried to murder Ben, no matter how they try to frame it I feel like it's a stretch. Why not just talk to him the next day, why go into his tent at 3am and be that creepy uncle?
Then he runs away. Luke messed up and how he deals with it all is by hiding? The same guy that jumped into an Xwing to blow up the death star. Who didnt hesitate to save his friends even though he wasn't ready. The same Luke who let himself get caught so he could save his father. Now he messes up and his choice is to hide and bury his head in the sand?
All those times he believed in himself against the odds and now he doesn't? Of course people can change, I guess we always hope people change for the better not worse. So that's why it's a little disappointing to see Luke differently in the new trilogy.
Then he runs away. Luke messed up and how he deals with it all is by hiding? The same guy that jumped into an Xwing to blow up the death star. Who didnt hesitate to save his friends even though he wasn't ready. The same Luke who let himself get caught so he could save his father. Now he messes up and his choice is to hide and bury his head in the sand?
All those times he believed in himself against the odds and now he doesn't? Of course people can change, I guess we always hope people change for the better not worse. So that's why it's a little disappointing to see Luke differently in the new trilogy.
This scene is so ridiculous, I love it. I wish it had been kept in.
I just want to point out that Luke going to Bespin might not be the honorable act people make it out to be. It was a deliberate trap set by Vader that he fell right into. He got his hand chopped off and his friends had to come to his rescue - Lando and Lobot were the ones who saved them. Luke accomplished nothing on Bespin except getting his shit physically and psychologically kicked in. Nothing would have changed in Han's or Leia's or any of the other characters' lives had he stayed on Dagobah, aside from Leia realizing she has a Force connection to Luke.
Then he does that shit again when he happily joins the Endor mission on a whim without considering whether or not the Emperor's top goon will be watching over the construction of their most powerful weapon.
This shows how Luke's love for his friends can be a negative as much as a positive trait, and is the exact kind of short-sighted decision that leads me to think Luke would totally start a new Jedi Order with a stack of old books (if he even had them and they weren't chilling on Ahch-to at the time) and, like, a month of training under one geriatric Jedi, with the intention of saving everybody, and not actually be able to fill the role he gave himself.
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If you don't want to actually read the post that's fine, but then you don't get to misrepresent what I wrote.
The vast number of stupid character actions and convenient/contrived things that happen at every turn in the movie are overbearing, even if most of them are not technically plot holes. Again, a few are fine in a movie if the rest of it is well done (see: Jurassic Park). But the ones in TLJ are so numerous that it turns the movie into a farce.
If they don't bother you, that's fine. It's obvious at this point that no criticism of The Last Jedi will affect what you see when you watch the film.
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Literally none of what you listed are plot holes, yet you don't concede to it. Most are just nitpicks that can be applied to any film in existence, or just outright nonsense. You're just throwing shit at a wall at this point and letting others determine what sticks. It's really exhausting.
I'm not misrepresenting anything. I read your posts and they're largely a waste of time.
I absolutely agree that JJ has this "Lost" thing going on where he wants to make people guess just for the hell of it. And yes it's super annoying... especially when you have an auteur like Rian Johnson come in and just shit all over his "clever" insinuations, lol. I say this as someone who has TLJ/TFA in his top 3 SW films, as well.
However, I do think that this scene (as well as other "JJ" moments) does give the viewer enough to come to a sound conclusion. Han is clearly shown (to me) as struggling literally and metaphorically with what has to be done (him dying to save Kylo from Snoke's wrath, as opposed to them running off together and everyone's happy).
Totally agree. I wish they did. But we'll never know if it was JJ trying to be clever or them just thinking it's enough to let you know what's going on.
The one thing I keep in mind is that the filmmakers already know the story - so when they shoot it and try to be clever, or throw out red herrings, they're coming from a perspective of already knowing what's going on. So they may go a bit too far in hiding the actual intentions of the scene. If that makes any sense, lol.
It's like when you spend so much time playtesting a level in Mario Maker you don't realize how pixel-perfect you're making the jumps 😜
I've enjoyed this back and forth btw. We both are kinda obviously coming from different places but we're talking with an awareness of it and imo that's the realm where a lot of understanding and learning can be reached as opposed to speaking as if our perspectives are fact. I think since I generally am not big on major Hollywood movies and the techniques they employ (oh man MCU films push my buttons) there's stuff I miss that I've seen others intuitively pick up on due to familiarity with the shorthand. Talking like this is a way for me to maybe get a better grasp of it - and is much more fun if you ask me!
I've applied that same logic to movies that I like, and guess what? They hold up. The contrivances are kept to a minimum and most characters do stuff that doesn't turn out to be illogical if you think about it for more than a minute. Do you know why TLJ is different? Because it's clear that RJ had this philosophy when writing it:
1. Come up with a moment that looks cool on screen.
2. Write any old crap to get the characters to where they need to be to have those moments happen.
If you like to just turn off your brain and get off on the pretty pictures, enjoy.
But they just cannot abide a Last Jedi "hater" running unchallanged around here.
This is exactly what I expected and is in no way unreasonable in Star Wars
Did you seriously watch this scene and go, "Well that's in no way unreasonable?"
Just curious, where do you draw the line at what BB-8 can do? What if the ship that saves Rose and Finn on Canto Bight was being piloted just by BB-8 alone? Can we get rid of Chewy and just have BB-8 fly the Millenium Falcon, or is that just too ridiculous?
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No they don't, not under the absurd level of scrutiny you're applying. I could easily make a list of those things for ANH, ESB, and ROTJ, but I won't. Why? Because it's not any fun and they're all written well enough to get by on their own (aside from the PT).
And you've still not conceded that nothing you came up with is an actual plot hole.
You could, if BB-8 knew where it was going or had it programmed.
You're essentially wading into the man vs. machine argument at this point, lol.
I'd heard it described, but it's so much funnier as shot. Rey confusedly twirling the lightsaber is wonderful.
I made my cases for them with the caveat that they may not be plot holes in the strictest sense of the word. What should we call it when it's not a plot hole, but the logic of the movie is contradicting itself? For example, the sending-ships-from-the-Raddus contradiction.
• The logic of the plot is broken when it's established that the Raddus is stuck without escape options, and then 2 characters are allowed to escape. Finn and Rose don't even give a second thought to taking a shuttle off the ship, which means it can't be a life-threatening endeavor (they are not even shown to need to dodge any TIE fighters or laser fire to get away), and they don't seem to think they'll have a problem getting back, since it is part of the plan. So here it is established that the Raddus is "stuck," and then this logic is contradicted.
And what would you consider a character doing or neglecting to do something that doesn't make sense according to his/her knowledge at the time? For example:
• Finn, Poe and Rose are able to call up Maz, but they don't try to call anybody else, say, someone who can send a distress signal and relay the Raddus's coordinates. Maz doesn't offer to call anyone else, and nobody else on the Raddus tries to call anyone else, even though they must have allies somewhere, since Holdo's plan is to get to a base to send a distress signal.
(A very easy solution for this gap in logic: Delete call to Maz. Say the FO is jamming their communications.)
• Luke's Force-projection plan. Logically, if Luke's goal was to save the resistance, he would give them some sort of hint instead of leaving them to pull a plan out of their asses. If there is no back exit, he could be risking his life for no benefit. If there is, it might be a good idea to tell them about it. We see his entire conversation with Leia and he doesn't utter a syllable about this. Additionally, if Leia understands that he is a force projection, then wouldn't she wonder what the hell his plan is?
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Would have preffered a version without the laugh track, so ppl can provie their own. However, the comedic timing is on point!
Aww gee going to wade into this.
There are incredibly reasonable explanations for both your first two points.
1. They literally do this in the film. They evacuate the crew in ships. It doesn't go well.
2. They literally do this in the film. They call for allies and nobody responds.
lol I love that because Finn's reaction is straight up "What is this girl's deal?"
Reminds me of Les Misérables where Eponine finally professes her love to Marius as she dies in his arms and he's just like "Ok uhh idk what that was all about"
Correct, the pods at the end were discovered by the FO because they were decloaked based on DJ's intelligence.
But if Finn and Rose's shuttle can be freely used because it is cloaked, then the premise that the movie lays out of the resistance being "trapped" or "doomed" is not correct, making it a contradiction.
Correct, they send out a distress signal from the base to allies that they have, but not before that, even though it is established that they can make calls from the Raddus.
You know, now that I watch it again, Maz is an ally. In her scene in TFA, she says "We all have to fight the First Order." Why doesn't she relay Finn and Rose's distress message to other allies? Too busy with her "union dispute?" Or is she just a secret asshole?
They can't make wide ranging open signals to send out into the deep outer rim from the Raddus. They need the base's equipment for that. They even say in the film they need to use the base's equipment to send out the signal.
Sending a 1 on 1 direct call vs a wide band open signal that can reach all the way into the deep outer rim are completely different things.
She is in the middle of a battle and seemingly not anywhere near any sort of massive base level communications towers..how was she in any sort of better position to do so?
the raddus is stuck because if it jumps into hyperspace, the first order can follow it. not because it cant jump.
the ship finn and rose used was hiding alongside with garbage, the same fucking trick han used on ESB.
If maz couldn't even go to crait, what makes you thing she had the opportunity to call allies herself?
the ship finn and rose used was hiding alongside with garbage, the same fucking trick han used on ESB.
If maz couldn't even go to crait, what makes you thing she had the opportunity to call allies herself?
Who would Maz call that's capable of taking on the First Order fleet anyway? The purpose of calling from Crait was that a.) it was an old fortified rebel base with, b.) communications systems strong enough to reach allies scattered in the Outer Rim and c.) the First Order would have chased the Raddus to another system not knowing the Resistance was hidden away on Crait. The original call out to allies wasn't about taking on the First Order fleet, but as a means of escape.
Maz is friendly to the Resistance but she doesn't lead an army.
Maz is friendly to the Resistance but she doesn't lead an army.
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About the ship Finn and Rose took .... there is no indication that they had more than one of those ships and it was tiny, it fit like a couple people on it. There is no way you'd be able to ferry 400 Resistance crew back and forth on that shop as the Raddus is running out of fuel. What a dumb plan that is.
My daughter is currently 3 and her hero is "Bot" from Team Umizoomi. So, to answer your question, no, we're not quite there yet. LOL!
I appreciate all your input, though, especially about Rei wanting guidance and not getting it from anywhere. That's definitely something we can all relate to in some factor of our lives.
She's in the middle of a "union dispute" that's apparently trivial enough to take calls during. If she can take calls, she can make calls. Plus it is established in TFA that she knows people/aliens from the outer rim, so call them. It honestly weirds me out how trivially she takes the situation, even though she knows how many resistance lives are at stake. She even makes a sex joke during the call!
My idea for help was to get allies to bring in some unbugged ships with shields to fly just ahead of the resistance to evacuate to. Then they light speed away. Bye bye First Order.
I think the admiral mistook the shuttle for debris, but Rose and Finn don't mention that was part of the plan, so I'm assuming it was also cloaked to avoid being seen by the FO.
That shuttle looked like it could fit at least 10 people, but a better plan is for Poe go on a mission with Finn to somehow rent/borrow/steal a ship big enough to get the resistance on. Then light speed out of there.
If you think that's a dumb plan, then you must not like Holdo's plan because it's the very definition of dumb. Sending 30 evacuation cruisers to Crait at the same time is moronic for a number of reasons. First of all, don't wait to send them and then send them all at once. Start sending them right away, and send them one at a time, to avoid being noticed. Yes, Leia says the FO is not monitoring for smaller ships (how does she know?), but that statement makes no sense because as stupid as the FO is, they still have eyes. We see Holdo looking at the transports, so they're not invisible.
And don't send them to Crait, for fuck's sake. If the plan is for the FO to follow the Raddus and pass Crait without noticing it, then they'd better have a goddamn big cloaking device to cover up a planet. I'm guessing the FO can probably spare one or two or 6 star destroyers to go check the place out as they pass.
The whole situation is a logic black hole, which can actually be worse than a plot hole.
And since I got no replies on this, I assume people accept that this is a valid criticism?
nah mate.
Maz not showing at the end is pretty telling.
also billie lourd says that it was debris, i dont know why you would need finn and rose to specifically state "we are going to use the debris as a disguise!" that would be fucking awful
It's so silly I didn't even think it warranted countering honestly.
But because you ask.
1. Leia trusts Luke. She knows how powerful he is in the Force and isn't going to doubt him in this moment.
2. Luke trusted Rey. It was on her to find them. Not him. He almost certainly knew what the outcome would be when he force projected to Crait.
In a thread full of winning about the ST lets take a moment and focus on an example of just how important the ST is. Because of Rey. Of what she represents for little girls. She is what Luke was for generations of young little boys. This impact on little girls and fandom is going to be felt for decades and decades. Just like little boys who grew up idolizing Luke. The way little small girls dress up as Rey, pretend to be Rey, lookup to Rey like little boys did Luke:
Just curious, where do you draw the line at what BB-8 can do? What if the ship that saves Rose and Finn on Canto Bight was being piloted just by BB-8 alone? Can we get rid of Chewy and just have BB-8 fly the Millenium Falcon, or is that just too ridiculous?
Ah, he knew the future because the force told him. Convenient.
Star Wars throughout its 40 year history has shown droids being quite capable of piloting various crafts...you question this suddenly now...why?
Convenient just like Luke knew exactly where to go to find Han and Leia in ESB despite no one telling him where they went?
You harp on force foresight in TLJ but willfully ignore it being used in nearly identical ways in other films.
It's perfectly fair to be unsatisfied or dislike the way it played out, but your suggesting that it is a logical inconsistency or a plot hole doesn't much water. The logic you are applying follows from an assumed interpretation of the scene, that Luke had a predetermined plan laid out for them. If he didn't, then none of your logic would follow. He could have had a good feeling about it. Hell, he could have just been winging it and hoped to hell it would work.
You just strive to be needly negative lol.
Oh and I love how BB-8 can't pilot an AT-ST for a feet but are a'ok with a droid piloting a ship by themself from the outer rim all the way to Coruscant...?
Small droids without limbs (with hands) like R2 and BB-8? When?
Yes, except that TLJ has about 20 "convenient/contrived" moments in it, compared to ESB's 3.
has anyone ever mentioned how Finn gets red demon eyes after she kisses him? who is the idiot who did post on this scene
BB-8 and R2-D2 both have limbs.
If you think ESB has less than TLJ you are being purposely naive and just looking for conveniences in TLJ and ignoring them in ESB.
You just strive to be needly negative lol.
Oh and I love how BB-8 can't pilot an AT-ST for a feet but are a'ok with a droid piloting a ship by themself from the outer rim all the way to Coruscant...?
If you saw this and an R2 unit was in the driver's seat, you would think, "That's perfectly in line with Star Wars?"
You know what I mean, come on. They are not humanoid droids, and we have only seen humanoid droids drive vehicles designed for humans.
No way. ESB has like 3 (which it earns, for the most part), and TLJ has many.