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Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,634
To get 3 points off the bat:
  1. More often than not Ethernet will always be better than Wifi but there is exceptions
  2. Some people do not have the ability to use anything but wifi
  3. If you have ability to use Ethernet but choose not to, there isn't really any defending that.
Anyway onto the rest of the thread. We've all seen this debate before, we had own notorious thread about it. Myself one such participant who shamed wifi users. This was (IIRC) following the "Network Update" of Tekken 7 which was supposed to improve things and also add a Wifi indicator to matchmaking.

So if you were like me and watched the Roundtable, you'd know that if you began a drinking game during the first half for whenever they said Wifi. You'd likely be dead. There was a whole presentation from Namco Bandai about Ethernet vs Wifi usage and how that's changed following the update. It was overly long and very long winded. And also sort of revealing in a way that was kind of obvious from before but more so now.

The point being that it's all deflection. Right now you can play the Guilty Gear Strive beta, there is no indicators for what a player connection is, and yet overwhelmingly the results are amazing due to the rollback. Considering this is a console-only beta, the likelihood that people are using wifi is pretty damn high. Yet you'd likely not know, because of the game's netcode is actually implemented incredibly well. (Just an aside, the Rolback Frames indicator in Strive is NOT the same as Input latency indicators you see in delay-based games). Rollback (to an extent, there's exceptions) can sort of cover for a lot of the more inconsistent nature of wifi connections (again within reason) thus overall leading to a very smooth online experience... just assuming in Strive's case we're not talking about the lobbies.

Anyway, going back, Namco is going hard on the whole: "Wifi is the problem" part because they know their netcode sucks ass (or at least I hope they know, I'm starting to think they've deluded themselves into thinking otherwise).

To borrow a joke from the Maximilian Dood stream:

Namco knew that they cannot change the Netcode. So, instead of reflecting on themselves, they blamed the wifi.

And this is potentially kind of really bad... Because it's showing that Namco is seemingly sticking to their guns and may ultimately be the final big fighting game publisher to implement rollback netcode.

So... yeah. Rollback netcode makes the whole debate of Wifi vs Ethernet not really that relevant anymore outside of specific cases.

Also don't believe Harada, he claims Tekken 7 has rollback. It doesn't. and if somehow it does... It's so poorly implemented it makes SFV's rollback look like Killer Instinct in comparison.
 

Deleted member 58141

user requested account closure
Banned
Jun 23, 2019
400
I moved recently so I had to play the Strive beta on Wi-Fi (usually, I'm ethernet only) and it's still the best online experience I've ever had in a fighting game. It's nuts.
 

pochi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,137
Future FG release should have rollback netcode. any less is trash. No matter how the game looks or how awesome the gameplay but if doesn't have rollback, it's capital TRASH.

Wifi indicator should also be standard.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,028
Just putting this out there since it's relevant to this topic and I know someone will be wondering.

Guilty Gear Strive will be getting a wifi-indicator

 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Namco straight up lying and deflecting, SNK starting to talk about Wifi, yeah, not a good look. Seems like those companies don't want to accept that a solution that came from the west is better than what they're doing. Embarrassing.
 
Oct 28, 2017
701
So... yeah. Rollback netcode makes the whole debate of Wifi vs Ethernet not really that relevant anymore outside of specific cases.

That's incorrect. The fact that you can't have a consistent latency over a wireless connection and the difference between the lowest and largest ping values can be a triple digit number milliseconds is the reason why wifi isn't good for online play.

And Tekken had rollback netcode since Tag2, it only rolls back to a maximum of 3 frames (~50ms) but they increased the maximum number of rollback frames to 6 frames (~100ms) in S4 of Tekken 7. The netcode did improve.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,316
America
Namco straight up lying and deflecting, SNK starting to talk about Wifi, yeah, not a good look. Seems like those companies don't want to accept that a solution that came from the west is better than what they're doing. Embarrassing.

It's fucking tragic. The letting down of their fans in such dishonorable fashion. They should apologize and vow to undo their giant fuckup for their next game.

Harada should step down in shame. This isn't the 90s. Get with the times!

people have been clamoring for rollback netcode for 15 YEARS now.

Fifteen years. Let that sink in.
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
  1. More often than not Ethernet will always be better than Wifi but there is exceptions
  2. Some people do not have the ability to use anything but wifi
  3. If you have ability to use Ethernet but choose not to, there isn't really any defending that.

There's a fourth point to add here, or a subpoint to point 3

If your only way to use Wifi is via PLC, don't, it's unreliable since it depends of the quality of electric wiring and generally has worse latency.

Basically because if this goes like the last wifi vs eth i posted in, someone is going to end up recommending using PLC adapters, and that's not a good solution over Wifi.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,662
South Central Los Angeles
There is no wifi debate. You can't reliably game online with wifi. Everybody knows this. The wifi discussion during the roundtable was dishonest deflection. Instead of admitting the challenges of implementing rollback in pre-existing games they instead chose to blame players who use wifi, an entirely different issue altogether.
 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,634
There is no wifi debate. You can't reliably game online with wifi. Everybody knows this. The wifi discussion during the roundtable was dishonest deflection. Instead of admitting the challenges of implementing rollback in pre-existing games they instead chose to blame players who use wifi, an entirely different issue altogether.

No one is saying WIFI is 100% reliable nor more so than Ethernet.

However, rollback goes a long way to mitigate the typical issues when playing against Wifi players. It's why you got Sonic Fox using wifi against Japanese players in Strive and it's still fantastically smooth.
 

Deleted member 56266

Account closed at user request
Banned
Apr 25, 2019
7,291
After watching this and hearing the other JP devs thoughts It really is a miracle that ASW implemented rollback for strive isn't it.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
After watching this and hearing the other JP devs thoughts It really is a miracle that ASW implemented rollback for strive isn't it.
Namco and SNK be like :

tenor.gif
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,028
After watching this and hearing the other JP devs thoughts It really is a miracle that ASW implemented rollback for strive isn't it.

People had to fight tooth and nail for it. It's a miracle that rather than be salty or bitter, ASW has fully embraced it and are proud of their netcode enough to be promoting it.

On a personal note, I'm so glad it's ASW that "figured it out", because they're the ones whose games I've been the most interested in lol. I don't really care if SNK or Bamco wants to be stuck in their own ways since I don't play their games lol.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,404
I think we all should be past this, use wifi if you want but the game should let your opponent know you're on wifi before they accept the match. How good the netcode is the real issue.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,857
Netcode should always be used on top of a solid network foundation to account for problems of any method of networking or quirks of the tech that can get in the way of fighting game working properly as it can and should be.

Can't believe namco is this foolishly stupid on the subject.

I think we all should be past this, use wifi if you want but the game should let your opponent know you're on wifi before they accept the match. How good the netcode is the real issue.

Netcode should always be.

A bad connection is just that but a bad netcode can ruin a great or good connection or render it useless, amazed at namco and snk stupidity.
 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,634
Netcode should always be used on top of a solid network foundation to account for problems of any method of networking or quirks of the tech that can get in the way of fighting game working properly as it can and should be.

Can't believe namco is this foolishly stupid on the subject.

Exactly, cause even if you got 2 people on amazing ethernet, just put them far apart on delay based netcode and it won't even matter lol
 

AlanOC91

Owner of YGOPRODeck.com
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
960
My new router supports Wifi6 which my motherboard also supports. Been getting fantastic speeds and ping from it which is great.

Having said that, on Wednesday I ran a cable from my router up into the attic and then down into my games room so my PC can finally be hard-wired in. There is just no beating it really.
 

Magneto

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,449
There's no debate. When i'll see a WiFi icon next to a player, i'll simply remove him/her and look for somebody else wired instead.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,857
My new router supports Wifi6 which my motherboard also supports. Been getting fantastic speeds and ping from it which is great.

Having said that, on Wednesday I ran a cable from my router up into the attic and then down into my games room so my PC can finally be hard-wired in. There is just no beating it really.

I've talked about Wifi6 in other FGC threads, it's great granted you don't have much intereference shame most people on wifi won't be using it to play their fighting games for sometime.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
If the new KoF comes out without rollback, it's going to be stone dead in months.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,224
WiFi can work for so long before the packet loss starts and the game starts to lag. I've run in too many situations in MK11 where the players are on WiFi and the connection just shit itself after a couple minutes.
 

DeadeyeNull

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Dec 26, 2018
1,686
There's a fourth point to add here, or a subpoint to point 3

If your only way to use Wifi is via PLC, don't, it's unreliable since it depends of the quality of electric wiring and generally has worse latency.

Basically because if this goes like the last wifi vs eth i posted in, someone is going to end up recommending using PLC adapters, and that's not a good solution over Wifi.
I've lived in 2 houses, in 1 a powerline adapter worked really well, but in a another it was really bad. If the house is newer it's worth a shot but otherwise don't bother. If the game has WiFi indicator it might be the only way to get matches because even wifi players don't want to play against wifi.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
Namco and SNK be like :

tenor.gif

For SNK it's a yes and no situation, weirdly.

For their old games they're pushing rollback proudly like there's no tomorrow.

For their new games they keep fucking up over and over.

Releasing the new Samsho with trash netcode while at the same time updating SSVSP with great rollback was tragic.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,100
Peru
Easy: if the indicator shows you're in Wifi, unless you're in the same city I am, I ain't playing with you.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,028
Wi-fi is not ideal, but a good rollback netcode would mitigate the problem and pretty much makes it a non-issue as seen with Sonicfox vs G01 during the Strive Beta.

For all the talk about taking Wi-Fi players into consideration during the roundtable, they literally have the solution in front of them.

How on Earth is the Strive beta a footnote in this discussion? Even Harada has the gall to post this:

 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,634
Wi-fi is not ideal, but a good rollback netcode would mitigate the problem and pretty much makes it a non-issue as seen with Sonicfox vs G01 during the Strive Beta.

For all the talk about taking Wi-Fi players into consideration during the roundtable, they literally have the solution in front of them.

How on Earth is the Strive beta a footnote in this discussion? Even Harada has the gall to post this:



Wait, Namco publishes Strive in some regions?
 

Ladomania

Banned
Nov 8, 2020
246
How is there a debate? Wired is always better even for rollback. I've had some trash matches in games with rollback because of WiFi players.
 

Deleted member 5593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,635
Publishers releasing games with Shoddy netcode need to be called out.

People crying about a WiFi indicator in games also need to be called out. People that play online while putting in the diminutive effort to use Ethernet should have the choice to play against other people who took the time also use Ethernet.
 

crimzonflame

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,754
Hopefully the fgc rallies behind Strive and its netcode resulting in great sales numbers and the other Japanese devs catch on. KOF15 launching with delay based netcode will mean the game will be DOA and we probably wont see another KOF again.
 

WindUp

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,396
I have no problem with people using WiFi but personally as someone who enjoys improving at fighting games in a semi-serious delay the consistency when both players are on wired is invaluable. A WiFi indicator is great because I can choose not to match with non-wired players.



maybe if their netcode wasn't run off of a potato we wouldn't even need these debates
Anyting to avoid putting proper rollback in more games

y'all know strive has rollback and the beta was received incredibly well in this area right
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,383
Seoul
y'all know strive has rollback and the beta was received incredibly well in this area right
Yeah it's great in strive , even when I played WiFi ppl. I just meant Tekken lol. Unless this is the last season of DLC then I feel like they should do something. Every time Harada replies to someone about it he just says we've had it for a while.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,224
It's fucking tragic. The letting down of their fans in such dishonorable fashion. They should apologize and vow to undo their giant fuckup for their next game.

Harada should step down in shame. This isn't the 90s. Get with the times!

people have been clamoring for rollback netcode for 15 YEARS now.

Fifteen years. Let that sink in.

HDR had it before the scene gain popularity and yet it took until Skullgirls and Killer Instinct for rollback netcodet be noticed meanwhile USF2 added back delay based netcode
 

Layell

One Winged Slayer
Member
Apr 16, 2018
1,982
I am not a huge fighting game player, I have about 40 hours in Battle for the Grid, according to my stats page I've played over 350 matches online.

There has only ever been one match I ever played where the connection and rollback was anything but buttery smooth. It's some crazy witchcraft when compared to Smash's online and its delay-based hell. Based on the usernames, I'm probably playing a lot of Gamepass folks when in casual fights, and who knows how many are wifi warriors.

Only one match ever, and it was likely the guy was playing some crappy wifi while someone else was streaming some 4k Netflix. Once I noped out of that match I connected with someone else and kept on having a blast.

In the future I will also likely not be buying and supporting fighting games without rollback. I enjoyed SC6 for its single-player stuff, and bought it at a good price off, but nothing more now.