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Revisiting the controversy surrounding Dragon's Crown's art direction and character designs
- Thread starter ScOULaris
- Start date
As a bisexual who loves me some big ol' titties, I didn't have an immediate aversion to the art style in pictures. In fact, I was pretty excited to play the Amazon. But once I saw the game in motion and more of the world, it became clear that this was not a game I could find sexy because the men and women were treated so goddamn differently in how they move and pose, in how the NPCs are treated, etc. Give me everyone dripping ridiculous levels of sex or restrain yourself to just mythic heroic proportions of badassery. Don't make just the women sexual objects, that's no fun.
The game never interested me too much, and the little I saw drove me away even more. Character design is dreadful.
And I didn't even know about all that stuff mentioned in this thread. Geez…
And I didn't even know about all that stuff mentioned in this thread. Geez…
Yup. It's why many of the 'lolz, it's fine, outrage culture amirite' posts in this thread are pretty tone-deaf.
I don't see how erotic nor pornographic prasentations are neither allowed to exist.
Straight dudes don't think misogynistic stereotypes and objectification in a non-porn, T-rated game is a problem. News at 11, I guess.
If you only need malicious intent to consider portrayals as problematic, then almost nothing is ever a "problem", including any homophobic, transphobic or racist depictions. After all, they're just ignorant/misguided/didn't mean to maliciously demean those demographics. By that logic, the transphobia in Catherine is not problematic because the creators are not deliberately trying to be transphobic. The racism in Tintin wasn't a problem because Hergé was just misguided and ignorant, not malicious. Etc.
Playboy is porn. This is a t-rated beat-em-up looting action-RPG.
Again, this isn't a porn game. This isn't Senran Kagura or even Dead or Alive. Previous Vanillaware game had the occasional skimpy outfits (e.g. Velvet in Odin Sphere, though she was still infinitely more tasteful than anyone in Dragon's Crown but the elf) but were never full of exaggerated, objectified designs like that and didn't constantly throw softcore hentai (again, always featuring sexualized women and not men) in your direction.
No need to imagine. Here's what happens when a Final Fantasy dude (in a mobile game, no less) receives a fraction of the skimpiness (and doesn't even have sexual poses or anything):
(Note: such a backlash was enough to get that FF dude's design altered to be less skimpy before the game released, because it made dudes uncomfortable. lmfao)
I think it's pretty telling that SE actually listened to them thus demonstrated they only care about complains related to character designs if they come from male gamers.No need to imagine. Here's what happens when a Final Fantasy dude (in a mobile game, no less) receives a fraction of the skimpiness (and doesn't even have sexual poses or anything):
(Note: such a backlash was enough to get that FF dude's design altered to be less skimpy before the game released, because it made dudes uncomfortable. lmfao)
You bring up the rating, and I agree with you that the rating is a problem, and that the reason it was able to come out with that rating is a problem. We're very much on the same page there.
Dragon's Crown should absolutely not be rated T, period, and the reason it has a T rating is our sexist culture.
But that isn't a problem with the game, that's a problem with the ratings boards and the values of society those boards reflect. Vanillaware didn't choose the rating the game would get, they made the game how they wanted it to be, and submitted it to the ratings boards.
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This actually (and unfortunately) looks tame compared to some of the comments about FFXV's cast that I read over the years. Here and in the old place people were usually more negative because of not having a female party member, but in most other places the tone of the criticism was pretty homophobic.No need to imagine. Here's what happens when a Final Fantasy dude (in a mobile game, no less) receives a fraction of the skimpiness (and doesn't even have sexual poses or anything):
(Note: such a backlash was enough to get that FF dude's design altered to be less skimpy before the game released, because it made dudes uncomfortable. lmfao)
I don't see how you suppose that even a single person in this thread is suggesting that they aren't allowed to exist...
Fair assessment I think. The game was fun but man....it just looks ridiculous, not "sexy."
The fact you are denying people to see DC as erotica for example.
...
...riiiiiight. I'm gonna place you on ignore now, you clearly have no interest in reading what I actually typed...
(Woman here but I know my opinion is not representative of all women's opinions and all, it's just my experience about the game)
I played the game with my boyfriend, and we had fun, but really there were moments that were off-putting or made my eyes roll hard.
That nun picture made me like "Really, game, what the fuck?" . Then the mermaid one, the woman chained on the bed, and the unlocked artworks made me think "yeah I get it... game targets straight dudes huh".
Seriously, this may be the only problem I have with the game because the art is really gorgeous, but I don't like how the women are sexually objectified, it's painfully obvious and in-your-face.
"Sex sells', they all say. Yeah. If "sex sells", why (most of the time) are women sexually objectified and not men, uh? (Don't answer that, I already know why)
I played the game with my boyfriend, and we had fun, but really there were moments that were off-putting or made my eyes roll hard.
That nun picture made me like "Really, game, what the fuck?" . Then the mermaid one, the woman chained on the bed, and the unlocked artworks made me think "yeah I get it... game targets straight dudes huh".
Seriously, this may be the only problem I have with the game because the art is really gorgeous, but I don't like how the women are sexually objectified, it's painfully obvious and in-your-face.
"Sex sells', they all say. Yeah. If "sex sells", why (most of the time) are women sexually objectified and not men, uh? (Don't answer that, I already know why)
You don't define a game based on previous gamed made by the same developer. You define a game based on what the game is.
E.g. Koei tecmo makes Dead or Alive anime almost-hentai games, but they also make Ninja Gaiden games. The former is nothing like the latter but it's the same dev. The former is unabashedly softcore porn, while the latter violent ninja action game with some questionable female character designs.
Criticising DoA for female sexualisation is missing the point. That's what the game outrights sets out to do. It's exists purely in service of its niche... it's a sexy fan service game.
Whereas criticizing Ninja Gaiden for its stupidly huge tittied, S&M-esque bordering on sexist female character designs is more than justified because those designs are out of place in the context of what is supposed to be a more serious game.
Dragon's crown is hyper sexualized through and through and isn't shy about it. That's entirely what it is. Sure on the gameplay side it's a dark fantasy setting and masquerades in a semi-serious narrative tone, but the art design of the game betrays its titilation ambitions because they aren't merely restricted to one or two characters in the game, the entire art design is infused with sex throughtout it's entirety.
It doesn't approach it's titilation objective in the same overt way as DoA. It actually tries to be a fun and fairly deep game while not being ashamed to shock with outrageously sexualized designs.
Trying to retain some artistic value as a game doesn't disqualify it from being a game wholly designed and intended to titilate its target male audience. E.g. it's more a Shannon Tweed movie, versus any random BangBros scene.
People who make comments like this give a bad name to fans of the game.
Seeing all the posted art is just making me want to play the game again. Might pick up the Pro version despite having 3 copies of the game already.
Man why cant people just be fine with what they like being called smut. I mean is it too hard to ask to own up to something like that? I like this game, and it is smut, no way around that arguement. And yes the artwork is problematic, you just need to realize why its problematic and make sure that aspect never seeps into how you view/treat women.
I didn't know that until this thread either, and I was as shocked as when I found out the first Halo game was rated M.
I love the art and I own most of those expensive Amazon figures because I'm a dork with disposable income and a weakness for thighs.
I *completely* understand why people would not like it, or even be repulsed by it.
For me, it's a celebration of heavily-troped traditional fantasy, from the music, the D&D Dungeonmaster narration, the lurid sexuality, and I'm into it because Kamitani made it come to life in a way few can.
I *completely* understand why people would not like it, or even be repulsed by it.
For me, it's a celebration of heavily-troped traditional fantasy, from the music, the D&D Dungeonmaster narration, the lurid sexuality, and I'm into it because Kamitani made it come to life in a way few can.
one of the most memorable games of last gen. I'm glad people have not forgotten. It made me appreciate the old D&D games even more. The PS4 version is available if people want to get into the game today.
I hope Kami makes a follow-up to this one day, but this time in space. I would like to see some crazy alien proportions.
I hope Kami makes a follow-up to this one day, but this time in space. I would like to see some crazy alien proportions.
It's an eroge. It always was, and the only reason why anyone remembers it was because of the crazy proportions on traditional-to-the-point-of-actually-boring designs.
The game was fun, I did enjoy it, but no one remembers it, or it as a love letter to DnD. Everyone remembers it because of the Sorceress' chest and the Barbarian's ass. The most disappointing thing about it is that, as far as fanservice goes, it is Kamitari's most boring output. It really does feel like he or someone in charge of game design got bored with a straight-up DnD campaign like story and ended up injecting as much titillation as they could in order to keep people invested, something that wasn't done with Muramasa or Odin's Sphere or Grim Grimore. And when people took offense with it, the response of "maybe you just don't like the ladies", is pretty crass. Dragon's Crown is Vanillaware's most visually boring game. At least before 13 Sentinels, which I haven't played but from what I've seen, seems to be a menu simulator.
It's not alone in being an eroge, the Shantae games are basically the same thing. People go there because the subtext of those games is lusting after a half-naked 15-year-old and her half-naked 15-year-old-esque (Rotty Tops and Risky Boots are...some 1000-year-old dragon nonsense if you think about it) friends. Are those games bad? No, not at all. But I don't fault anyone for giving it the side-eye when the visual narrative is "watch this child belly dance".
It's funny reading through this thread because it reminds me a lot of people recommending manga or anime to people who aren't really into those things, and they just straight-up forget that in episode 1, there's some actual real debauchery that is so normalized in the medium that they don't even consider it to be questionable. Like this mess:
The game was fun, I did enjoy it, but no one remembers it, or it as a love letter to DnD. Everyone remembers it because of the Sorceress' chest and the Barbarian's ass. The most disappointing thing about it is that, as far as fanservice goes, it is Kamitari's most boring output. It really does feel like he or someone in charge of game design got bored with a straight-up DnD campaign like story and ended up injecting as much titillation as they could in order to keep people invested, something that wasn't done with Muramasa or Odin's Sphere or Grim Grimore. And when people took offense with it, the response of "maybe you just don't like the ladies", is pretty crass. Dragon's Crown is Vanillaware's most visually boring game. At least before 13 Sentinels, which I haven't played but from what I've seen, seems to be a menu simulator.
It's not alone in being an eroge, the Shantae games are basically the same thing. People go there because the subtext of those games is lusting after a half-naked 15-year-old and her half-naked 15-year-old-esque (Rotty Tops and Risky Boots are...some 1000-year-old dragon nonsense if you think about it) friends. Are those games bad? No, not at all. But I don't fault anyone for giving it the side-eye when the visual narrative is "watch this child belly dance".
It's funny reading through this thread because it reminds me a lot of people recommending manga or anime to people who aren't really into those things, and they just straight-up forget that in episode 1, there's some actual real debauchery that is so normalized in the medium that they don't even consider it to be questionable. Like this mess:
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No need to imagine. Here's what happens when a Final Fantasy dude (in a mobile game, no less) receives a fraction of the skimpiness (and doesn't even have sexual poses or anything):
(Note: such a backlash was enough to get that FF dude's design altered to be less skimpy before the game released, because it made dudes uncomfortable. lmfao)
Out of curiosity do you know which character?
I literally just had this experience yesterday.
I don't watch much anime, but I was in the mood to watch some after recently watching my wife play Astral Chain.
I had heard a lot of praise for Kill la Kill, and I even knew it was going to be a show with a lot of sexualization (I'd seen enough imagery to know I was in for a lot of underboob, at the very least), but none of the comments I had seen prepared me for that first episode.
The main character is a sexualized teenager, which isn't great to begin with. But this other supporting female character, who they say is also a teenager, totally just looks like she's 8, and they sexualize her too. At one point, they hang her upside down so you can see some pretty extreme underboob.
That show is pretty disgusting.
The gameplay is AMAZING
The combos and skills and progression through quests is amazingly fun.
It is the Capcom D&D games from cps2 improved in every way (except the bag system)
Fans of beat em up still call it when asked for good examples of the genre.
I would have bough 3 copies and would still play to this day on a lazy sunday if it wasn't for the game basically spelling a "fuck you platy" in it's artwork.
As far as sexualized cheesecake art styles go I actually like it because it seems to have an actual aesthetic and sense of humor about itself. Where the game loses me is some of its animation shortcuts. The making a still image breath/ riging a model so it moves like it has rubber bones method never looks good.
As someone who's watched that whole thing...it will never become more acceptable than it is in the first episode.
Was this user banned for this post or one in another thread? Usually there's a reason stated over the post that broke the rules but thier other posts are days old and unmoderated.
Trigger in general is overrated and vapid, check out Kimetsu no Yaiba for better designs and amazing animation
I don't know if that kind of action stuff is really for me.
The two recent things that have clicked for me were Carole & Tuesday and Violet Evergarden.
And keeping in line with the Dragon's Crown talk, I adore The Woman Called Fujiko Mine. That's my kind of pervy, not that Kill la Kill crap that sexualizes children.
The main character of FF Mobius.
Guys couldn't handle it.
So they threatened to speak with their wallets. The consumer drives the market.
User banned (permanent): Dismissing Concerns of Sexism as Outrage Culture; Prior Severe Bans for Transphobia and Ableism
Dragons Crown was inspired by a specific art style. Criticism of one is criticism of the other. I guess Era is just thirsty for more outrage.
Trying to project onto Kamitani motivations other than "He likes them big ass and titties" to deflect criticism of the game's art is a real galaxy brain move.
If you're not going to respect the person you are talking to, at least respect yourself and try to not look like a dumb ass by saying dumb shit on the internet.
It's a shame the dude can't help himself from going full hentai all the damn time because on a technical level he's a beast.
If you're not going to respect the person you are talking to, at least respect yourself and try to not look like a dumb ass by saying dumb shit on the internet.
It's a shame the dude can't help himself from going full hentai all the damn time because on a technical level he's a beast.
really? you don't see a problem with this picture whatsoever? since when do humans actually stand like this? or when do wizards usually snuggle their staff in between their asses? this picture is almost like those kids highlights magazines where on the cover you gotta spot a dozen things wrong with the picture Lol.