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Revisiting the controversy surrounding Dragon's Crown's art direction and character designs
- Thread starter ScOULaris
- Start date
OP
OP
There was no intent on my part to hide anything. Is there anything inherently "offensive" about that picture, though? Is a stylized, sexy picture of a woman problematic in and of itself?What's with the OP posting the less offensive official sorceress art, as if to hide this shit:
Q
This is a hot take if I ever saw one when talking about a game. Unless im really misreading this post, are you comparing people who enjoy Dragon's Crown to incels? That just ends all discussion anyone would even want to have with you but I doubt you even care.
This is a hot take if I ever saw one when talking about a game. Unless im really misreading this post, are you comparing people who enjoy Dragon's Crown to incels? That just ends all discussion anyone would even want to have with you but I doubt you even care.
Yes. Where are the men in this game doing that? Where are the men in any game doing that?
It is a tit and ass picture to show even more the tits and the ass with the skull being pressed against her breasts and the staff almost being hugged by her ass. It is a metaphor for your dick. It is a pose that makes no sense made only to show how her sexy features.
No, I am saying that if you want straight focused games, you can have games that treat straight men with respect.
Straight Women games often don't objectify the men in it to the point of they lacking humanity just to show their pecks. Hell, men are shown as very complex and human ways in most otome games. But this game says that straight men only want women to masturbate and ther was no women is there that are amazing because of her knowledge or any intelectual attribute. And I say masturbate because this game shows zero human affection.
It is not a game for men who loves women (like the basic definition of straight men), it is a game for men who objectifies women.
It is not a pretty picture it paints straight men on and I don't know why any straight men would be happy with this picture.
Playboy also have articles and other stuff besides the naked women to at least pretent it cares about how to make you stylish =P
And people keep saying "i like it because it does what it sets to do" and to that I say : a porn game rated T ? You FAILED
Men have no idea what sexualized men would look like.
I might regret this post, but I almost want to make a thread about it, because the inability to recognize it is really irksome to me.
It's incredible to me that people can see games like dragon's crown, where a woman's boobs are flying all over the fucking place, and go "yeah, what's the problem?" To me it just looks ridiculous. And painful. And yeah, maybe I should be progressive enough to really care about it because of the messages that it sends, etc etc. But I guess I'm selfish, because really, I find it hard to get into a number of games these days because the fanservice has gotten so extreme. I can deal with sexualized designs as long as they're somewhat elegant, etc etc. But Dragon's Crown?
And Kamitani's response says everything. This is not a debate in Japan. No one has any illusions as to why these characters are illustrated this way. It's not some reference to ancient art and fertility. It's not, "well actually" xyz. It's illustrated that way for men. Because the world is for men. That's the underlying understanding. And yeah, you'll see female designers also produced high sexualized designs. Because that's the framework they're operating in.
Go on digiket and look at some gay comic that features skin tight superheroes or some shit in compromising poses.
This is what characters in this game, Xenoblade 2, and other titles look like.
This is what characters in this game, Xenoblade 2, and other titles look like.
I might regret this post, but I almost want to make a thread about it, because the inability to recognize it is really irksome to me.
It's incredible to me that people can see games like dragon's crown, where a woman's boobs are flying all over the fucking place, and go "yeah, what's the problem?" To me it just looks ridiculous. And painful. And yeah, maybe I should be progressive enough to really care about it because of the messages that it sends, etc etc. But I guess I'm selfish, because really, I find it hard to get into a number of games these days because the fanservice has gotten so extreme. I can deal with sexualized designs as long as they're somewhat elegant, etc etc. But Dragon's Crown?
And Kamitani's response says everything. This is not a debate in Japan. No one has any illusions as to why these characters are illustrated this way. It's not some reference to ancient art and fertility. It's not, "well actually" xyz. It's illustrated that way for men. Because the world is for men. That's the underlying understanding. And yeah, you'll see female designers also produced high sexualized designs. Because that's the framework they're operating in.
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I would consider creative choices that explicitly target demographics, groups, or individuals with overt intention to hurt, demean, condescend, etc to be most arguable candidates for having a "problem", as their intent is malicious and not in good faith. The core goal of these works is to hurt (in most cases) marginalised demographics.
Being off putting and exclusionary by creative choices is not a "problem" in the case of an expression that is confidently structured around a specific vision, tone, and direction that does not aim to hurt but is simply exclusionary by virtue of stylistic choices. This is not a dismissal of an individual's feelings towards the works, and their own personal grievances with the subject matter, all of which are entirely valid. It is a subjective personalised "problem". But the work's existence and the absence of particular (and arguably just as subjective) inclusionary content is not a problem, because the inherent goal of all creative works and stylistic choices is not fundamentally dependent on being inclusive or required to emphasise inclusivity to be valid.
This is particularly complicated to unpack when discussing the visual arts, as the spectrum of human expression is just as diverse and multifaceted as it is both inclusive and exclusive. Erotic tones and themes are a facet of some artistic styles and they will, in most cases, always be somewhat exclusive due to the spectrum of human sexual and physical interests. The issue of arguably exclusive content can be expanded in equal measure to the expression of violence, and language. Language in particular is a very interesting subject, as tone and implication of certain words and phrases can be interpreted with dramatic differences between cultures and groups, where in one it is acceptably inclusive and in another exclusive.
In the case of Dragon's Crown my fundamental disagreement with the argument that it's a "problem" is that it's so on the nose with hyper masculine and erotically grotesque imagery that its intent is earnest, honest, and not in the least bit aimed at hurting any demographic. It may be perceived as personally repugnant, unappealing, gaudy, trashy, pandering to the male gaze, aimed at teenage boys, or whatever else, but these are subjective interpretations of creative expression as per taste and not indicative of some problematic direction that shouldn't exist in its current form (not accusing you of asserting as much, mind you).
A similar example, if I were to use myself and laden it with irony, would be Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I adore Xenoblade Chronicles. And I refuse to fucking touch Xenoblade Chronicles 2 because I find the character art, tone of the creative direction (from the cutscenes I've seen), repulsive and overwhelmingly unappealing. The character designs for women in particular combined with their virtuous character archetypes seems, from my exposure, so disconnected and disassociated with the tone of everything around them that the sexualisation is explicitly targeting these particular characters, their forms, and their titillation. Dragon's Crown I can work with as the artistic vision is so coherent in its erotic Frank Frazetta-like fantasy absurdism that it appears tonally consistent and earnest. It's okay for complete works to be erotic in nature and tone, particularly if they're consistent in this regard, of which I find Dragon's Quest absolute is.
Yep.
Fact is: had any western developer published something like that the sky would have been cracked open with thunder, lightning, farts and shit.
Men tend to sexualize men with oversized dicks and women with oversized asses. It's the same shit - the human brain working in the same way.
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OP
OP
Xeno 2's creepy fanservice struck me as far more cringeworthy and off-putting than anything in Dragon's Crown. I can see how some people would equate what both games are doing in terms of character design and sexualization, but for me DC is over-the-top in a far less disturbing way than some of the scenes in Xeno 2.
I guess part of it is that those scenes in Xeno 2 are also just so cheesy and embarrassing to watch for a plethora of other reasons. Xeno 2's creepy fanservice stuff and reliance on modern anime tropes really held it back from matching the greatness of its predecessor.
Your stance on the matter certainly is...
From the moment the character was designed, they existed primarily as an object of a man's objectification. It goes far beyond "I find pretty women pleasing to the eye" and throws impossibly huge breasts into a blouse with a neckline that stops only when it's cover reaches the very tip of the character's areola. The picture in question draws her in a situation that seems PROFOUNDLY stupid for a character of any profession to be in; shoving a long staff in between her asscheeks while she, what, hugs a damn skeleton? This isn't some woman choosing to do this for male gaze, it's a male creating this character and illustrating every aspect of her life to center around attracting the attention of HIM and people like him...
That's objectification. Are you honestly confused as to why someone would be offended by that concept, much less embarrassed to have any relation to it or wary of anyone trying to defend such things?...
Apart from the fact that the artist ignores how spines works so that they can show off both her ass and her tits as much as possible, the fact that she presses a skull into her tits and hugs her staff with her asscheeks alluding to sexual practices - apart from that you need more reasons to find this a far better representation of why the sorceress graphical representation was deemed offensive?
"It's just a sexy picture, what's wrong with it?"
"Sexy" to you, yes. It's pandering to your tastes. It does everything in its power to please you, at the expense of laws of gravity, biology and dignity. Perfectly fine to you.
However, other people looking at it, with other eyes, will have a different opinion on it. I don't find it sexy. I doesn't pander to me.
And to make this clear, the "controversy" from how I remember it was not so much about the fact that some people found the art style offensively oversexualized to a point where it was a detriment to them enjoying the game. The "controversy" wasn't even about Jason Schreier.
The "controversy" was about this Polygon review, where the female reviewer (Danielle Riendeau) dared voice her discomfort with the art style and gave a review score accordingly to her lessened enjoyment of the game:
https://www.polygon.com/2013/7/31/4553958/dragons-crown-review-heavy-metal
This lead to gamer outrage about the review score of a 6.5 that seemed heavily influenced by her dislike of the graphic representation of the characters, which some people could not take.
I quote some comments:
THAT was the controversy. About how much a game review should reflect the enjoyment of the game or how much it should abstract from the reviewers personal enjoyment. About a game site letting a female reviewer review a game that wasn't made to be enjoyed by female players in the first place.
So it's not about the fact that there's a sexy picture. It's about the right of female reviewers to speak to female gamers about the game and talk about the enjoyment they will get out of it, and grade the game accordingly like it's a normal thing.
The male gaze doesn't always have to be the one and only bar we measure things by. It doesn't always have to be the one way to look at video games, just because they were made with that in mind.
And that rubbed people the wrong way it seems.
Yea, Japanese titles get off pretty easily versus western titles (which themselves aren't scrutinized heavily).
It's dissapointing, but I think comes down to a larger issue of gaming journalism being dominated by white men.
I mean the Cock thing was just an obvious exaggeration kn my part.
My point is that sexualization of women is so rampant that even mere suggestions of equal opportunities that should be done to male characters as well is met by 'hur hur but pen0rz are different!'.
It's the obvious double standard that annoys me.
This is exactly my point. It's so ridiculous that women's objectifying is fine and dandy because arts but the moment it is suggested that this should be done to male characters too it is suddenly 'but this is a T rated game!'.Maybe someday we'll have games over games of this (and not just parody pics) and some people will understand
Maybe.
A prominent trait of incels is their fondness for this sort of thing. Sorry if that offends you?...
I also dislike this whole new idea where people who find something offensive have to seek out ways to "progress discussion" with people who clearly have no intention of accepting or understanding why the offensive thing is offensive to the offended. Lol, tf are they supposed to do, respond politely all day while you endlessly disrespect their sensibilities by trying to justify this crap and look for "gotcha" moments?...
Maybe someday we'll have games over games of this (and not just parody pics) and some people will understand
Maybe.
As an asswoman myself, I do hope this future comes soon, lol.
Basically, it should be perfectly fine to say an art style makes you uncomfortable. It's fine if the thing is not for you.
I personally think games for horndogs are okay, people just need to stop taking them as the "normal ground" jeez, and acknowledge that those are special interest games that won't appeal to everyone.
Even saying this though, it should be perfectly acceptable for people to discuss a game EVEN IF IT IS NOT MADE FOR THEM, especially seeing as how many games are always made for (straight, white) men. And taken as the "normal".
Otherwise the game world stays an echo chamber repeating the same formulas and pandering to the same types until eternity.
This should not go unchallenged.
Every once in a while, it should be acceptable to listen to another view on the thing that was made for you - and maybe open your eyes a bit wider on it.
I'm pretty sure people will say "just do it for men too", but only because they know devs won't pull it, or at most have 1 or 2 games with it. People tend to miss that the problem isn't just that objectification of women exist, but that is so stupidly common than women have been hit with these image for decades.
It's different for a dude to think "yeah I'll take a game where a guy is grabbing his ass on camera" to "yea'll I'll take that half of my games have men showing asses on my screen".
Do you have some examples of games for men who love women? I'm curious as I'm not really sure what you mean
I do see your point, but at the same time it's a brawler, none of the characters have much personally and they don't really get any character development either
It's 100% valid to be critical of the art style choices and how women are portrayed in the game, but I can't really think of any brawlers with a lot of character development
Do Final Fight or Streets of Rage show any human affection or character development? If not, are they as bad as Dragon's Crown? If not, what makes Dragon's Crown worse?
Mah doesn't offend me as much as it confuses the hell out of me. So you just label people incel-lite for liking the game?
I understand people find the art problematic, its downright sexist when compared to the male artstyle with the female. I just don't think that makes someone an incel.
Just because there aren't any better examples doesn't mean you have to endlessly repeat the shitty sexualization as "part of a genre".
But hey, how about this one:
Didn't like it back then, still don't like it now. I was never outraged by the designs or anything, but I certainly had no interest in the game because of them.
Yeah that game looks great. I was asking about the character development point though
So does that mean other brawlers are as bad a Dragon's Crown, or Is it just that Dragon's Crown is more gratuitous?
Edit: To add to this, you providing an example of a game that is deliberately subverting genre tropes to dismiss a point I was making about genre tropes isn't really a point worth making
More so when I was only making that point because someone else was subjecting the game to a level of scrutiny they wouldn't apply to any over game in the genre
Which is why I was asking what makes Dragon's Crown worse than any other brawler with buff dudes and scantily clad women?
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Art looks fine to me. Actually I like it a lot and I also like the Heavy Metal comics this drew inspiration from. If you don't know what Heavy Metal is, it's a magazine where independent comic creators can show their stories as long as they fit into the fantasy/scifi genre and a lot of the comics in it feature gore and erotica, but not all of them.
Hey I can understand people not liking this art and I agree that it's overly sexualized but... People aren't allowed to enjoy this? WTF...
oh wow, nice art!and what image they give you ?
Fuck this shit. She even make orgasm sounds
I don't know about you but I never thought of this as sexual, the only thing you see is legs and arms? Like you can find something like this in Disney movies.
Here is some pedo bait with the fairy !
oh wow gorgeous art!! <3
Here is another sorceress the game has. Both male npc and pc wizards are fully dressed.
mermaid rules...
Hey I can understand people not liking this art and I agree that it's overly sexualized but... People aren't allowed to enjoy this? WTF...
I've seen this pose in many Instagram photos.What's with the OP posting the less offensive official sorceress art, as if to hide this shit:
Plenty of people in this thread like the art because they can jerk off to it. So I think you'll be fine.
I'm sure they do, but there are also a lot of people who like it and don't want to jerk off to it
Not everything exists in extremes
This reminds me of something I saw in one of my Discord servers recently. Since sexualization of men is so often coded as gay, the inverse of Dragon's Crown would probably look something like this...
Furry said:
There's plenty of ways to sexualize men that both don't involve genitalia and that would be as offputting to straight men as Dragon's Crown is to women. Which, I don't imagine there would be calls for such games to be banned, exactly, but I imagine if half-naked femboys started popping up in a bunch of non-erotic AAA and AA games, I imagine straight male gamers would find themselves empathizing with that Polygon review real quick.
People love to get really riled up about this game, but to me this game is precisely what it sets out to be. It's a game with a hypersexualized visual style that peemeates every part of the game, because that's precisely what the game intends to be.
Getting upset or offended at Dragon's crown seems to me like it's missing the point. The game is equivalent to Dead or Alive, it's designed for titillation, and horny young boys is its primary demographic.
It's the gaming equivalent of Mills and Boon. That's what it is, it's what it wants to be and it's unabashed about it.
To me it's far less insidous and far less offensive as say, naked Cortana in Halo games. Halo isn't a series whose visual style and make-up is designed around titilation, so naked busty Cortana seems gross and out of place. In Dragon's Crown ALL the designs are sexualized to the point of outrageous and so should be viewed from that perspective.
So to those saying you can't play it with your mom, sister or G/F in the room, i'm like... duh. It's not that kind of game. It's no different to how I wouldn't watch a Shannon Tweed movie with my mom or girlfriend either.
Getting upset or offended at Dragon's crown seems to me like it's missing the point. The game is equivalent to Dead or Alive, it's designed for titillation, and horny young boys is its primary demographic.
It's the gaming equivalent of Mills and Boon. That's what it is, it's what it wants to be and it's unabashed about it.
To me it's far less insidous and far less offensive as say, naked Cortana in Halo games. Halo isn't a series whose visual style and make-up is designed around titilation, so naked busty Cortana seems gross and out of place. In Dragon's Crown ALL the designs are sexualized to the point of outrageous and so should be viewed from that perspective.
So to those saying you can't play it with your mom, sister or G/F in the room, i'm like... duh. It's not that kind of game. It's no different to how I wouldn't watch a Shannon Tweed movie with my mom or girlfriend either.
Final Fight and Streets of Rage treat their women in closer ways than Dragon's Crown treate their men.
While Final Fight and Streets of rage have their problems with women (short skirts are not good for giving high kicks), at least the women (both npc and playable) have interesting stories (at least in later games...)
You can see Blaze panties, but at least is in a pose that makes sense for someone giving a flying kick, so she is shown for someone that favors actual moves then just showing tits and ass
For example, lets take Lucain and Morgan, 2 magic npc magic users.
Lucain has a quest about you retreving his bones, ressurrecting and lots of talk about how awesome a magician he is. He teachs you about runes, he gives lots of info. He lends you the fairy and you find the mickey like rat that is his apprendice in a dungeon later. Clicking on his features gives information about his magic wisdom with words like ""Eyes full of curiosity".
Morgan .. fixes stuff. And when you click on her boobs you get "Watch your hands, lest she decide to turn them to stone."
There is also an artwork that shows her in the shoulder of a giant golem playing like he was a doll.
Most male npcs are awesome or warriors or thiefs and makes reference to awesome movies and comics. The nun is dying and the siren is topless because she was just beaten by a water monster. The nun is not ressurected and the sire is not shown in full health. The princess is being mind controlled. The drunken fairy is the npc with the most personality and her personality is drunken fairy.
The spirit is a prisoner. If you click her she will moan and you will get a message that the fairy is judging you
There is ONE female npc that is ok, tho. The Hobgoblin Chef.
She still has a specific quote if you want to click her boobs in a sexual way tho.
Personally I think it's worse than some other stuff I've seen, but even if it wasn't the ABSOLUTE WORST EVER, it should be okay to talk about it without going "but what about all the other game, are they not bad too?"
Yes, they are probably also bad, also climate change is an even bigger issue, but hey, how about we stay on topic for this one game for now.
"a level of scrutiny they wouldn't apply to any other game in the genre"
Let people criticize the game without asking them to criticize everything else ever at the same time, otherwise we'll never get anything said.
Who says you aren't allowed to enjoy this?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
"This game is meant to be offensive, so I don't understand how people get offended by it"?
It's perfectly fine for a game like this to exist, and it should be just as fine for people to voice the fact that it doesn't appeal to them, that it's a niche style, that it only appeals to a specific demographic, and that they personally didn't enjoy it.
This doesn't conflict with anything that you said about it.
When your stance is "let people like what they like" then the flipside has to be "let people dislike what they dislike".
People that dislike this also want their voice heard in the gaming community, so the game shouldn't be above criticism just because it's exactly what it wants to be.
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Which guy in the game is posed with his legs spread (or ASS READY TO RECEIVE)?
I appreciate the attempt, but DC still widely sexualizes its female cast then its male.
I will say it's one of few games that actually nails a boob jiggle (gratuitous proportions aside). Most games seem like they never seen real tits move where they literally seem to jiggle like jell-o than actual flesh. And I don't know why it;s so hard to admit she was designed to be the spank-bank of the game.
Ah well. The medival cameos were really cute.
The game is artistically well done, and I DO like a LOT of its design choices. The only one I don't like is how a large part of the cast is envisioned by what was obviously a horny guy.
People are literally allowed to enjoy it in almost every game... it's a goddamn ""trend"" featured almost more often than not.
Women are literally pouring their hearts out on the daily with how images hard them own body image, or how the industry mistreats/abuses them. But men need to whack off to game characters so we have to fight for our voice and OFTEN face fan fury for it (hell, look at the recent Jeremy Soule and Alec Holowka thing)
I appreciate the attempt, but DC still widely sexualizes its female cast then its male.
I will say it's one of few games that actually nails a boob jiggle (gratuitous proportions aside). Most games seem like they never seen real tits move where they literally seem to jiggle like jell-o than actual flesh. And I don't know why it;s so hard to admit she was designed to be the spank-bank of the game.
Ah well. The medival cameos were really cute.
The game is artistically well done, and I DO like a LOT of its design choices. The only one I don't like is how a large part of the cast is envisioned by what was obviously a horny guy.
People are literally allowed to enjoy it in almost every game... it's a goddamn ""trend"" featured almost more often than not.
Women are literally pouring their hearts out on the daily with how images hard them own body image, or how the industry mistreats/abuses them. But men need to whack off to game characters so we have to fight for our voice and OFTEN face fan fury for it (hell, look at the recent Jeremy Soule and Alec Holowka thing)
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This thread already has 4 screenshots of the game tagged as NSFW
And I'm not addressing everyone. Just the extremely transparent ones who somehow don't see the issue with any of the designs while loving them as if the naive act is fooling anyone. That's drastically different than seeing the issue but liking the art/designs.
Final Fight and Streets of Rage treat their women in closer ways than Dragon's Crown treate their men.
While Final Fight and Streets of rage have their problems with women (short skirts are not good for giving high kicks), at least the women (both npc and playable) have interesting stories (at least in later games...)
You can see Blaze panties, but at least is in a pose that makes sense for someone giving a flying kick, so she is shown for someone that favors actual moves then just showing tits and ass
For example, lets take Lucain and Morgan, 2 magic npc magic users.
Lucain has a quest about you retreving his bones, ressurrecting and lots of talk about how awesome a magician he is. He teachs you about runes, he gives lots of info. He lends you the fairy and you find the mickey like rat that is his apprendice in a dungeon later. Clicking on his features gives information about his magic wisdom with words like ""Eyes full of curiosity".
Morgan .. fixes stuff. And when you click on her boobs you get "Watch your hands, lest she decide to turn them to stone."
There is also an artwork that shows her in the shoulder of a giant golem playing like he was a doll.
Most male npcs are awesome or warriors or thiefs and makes reference to awesome movies and comics. The nun is dying and the siren is topless because she was just beaten by a water monster. The nun is not ressurected and the sire is not shown in full health. The princess is being mind controlled. The drunken fairy is the npc with the most personality and her personality is drunken fairy.
The spirit is a prisoner. If you click her she will moan and you will get a message that the fairy is judging you
There is ONE female npc that is ok, tho. The Hobgoblin Chef.
She still has a specific quote if you want to click her boobs in a sexual way tho.
Thanks for the reply, and as you seem to have a better understanding of the genre, I'll defer to your judgement
I wasn't changing the subject. If someone criticised a horror film for having no romance subplot, it would be valid to say romance subplots are not generally a part of horror films, and so criticising a horror film for lacking one would require them to answer why they wouldn't criticise other horror films for not having romantic subplots
"Climate change is bad" as a retort to point would be absurd
Unless brawlers are generally known for their character development, you don't have a point
I'm not stopping people from being critical of anything, and even said that directly to the poster I was speaking to, so again, weird point to raise
As you can see that poster replied and had a good answer for me, but I'd ask you to reassess the way you reply to posts, because replying to people in an inflammatory way and making wild points that misrepresent the persons views, is exactly why so much of the discourse on Era ends up being hostile and of poor quality
I don't see how it's not a form of erotica or porn. It's a really thoroughly pervy game, to the point where if that's the main thing that draws you to it, you would be totally satisfied with the purchase.
It isn't something like Metal Gear Solid V, where it's just a regular game most of the time and then they throw in one barely-dressed woman that sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't belong at all.
If we're being honest, I look up art and GIFs from the game far more than I actually go back to play it, because its primary appeal to me is as erotica.
I agree with this completely, and find the double standards to be endlessly frustrating and disappointing.
But it's the double standards I want to see go away, not the Dragon's Crowns of the world.
people cannot tell the difference between erotism and pornography
The short reply is "even if you are right it means this 2013 game is as sexist as an 80's game" which is still not good for the 2013 game because it means the game's sexism is 30 years old.
i think the art is just plain bad, that features some terrible character design. and after having played muramasa, which i adored, this game just wasn't as fun to me. was easy for me to drop and never come back to tbh.
I found the proportions and poses wonky yet fascinating. I had no issue with them back then and I have no issue with them now. I played the hell out of it with my friends on Vita. Might pick it back up for old times sake.
She has to keep the staff erect while she motorboats the skeleton. Her ass cheeks keep it stable. C'mon... This is classic fertility goddess stuff
