These people don't give a fuck about Muslims. They just pretend to. When something like this happens the Islamophobia jumps the fuck out. And I'm tired of it. With allies like these, who needs enemies.
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Reuters: Three dead in knife attack in French church, woman beheaded
- Thread starter It’s Time To Go
- Start date
Yes? They banned things like the burkini and headscarf-wearing mothers from joining school trips with their children.
I can at least understand the ban of the face veil since it could be seen as a security issue. But the above mentioned is unacceptable imo.
User banned (1 month): Islamophobia
Yea, same.
I was taking a "to each their own" with beliefs, but now I'm actively annoyed.
On the topic of "Islam is evil" or whatever - it is absolutely undeniable that in the present day you see more violent rhetoric acted upon using Islam as the tool/excuse.
Christians are content with just using racism and/or sexism.
The other religions seem to have their shit in order at least (and no I don't consider Israel's actions as a state to be reflective of Judaism - fuck Netanyahu).
Fucking terrible.
How does this cycle of violence end?
I was talking to a coworker this morning about this and he became very offended at the notion that the news brought the religion of the attacker into this:
"What's Islam have to do with this? If those people were properly social distancing at home, they wouldn't have been killed." And then he went off on a rant about Christians killing abortion doctors... and I'm like "dude, yes that's wrong too, no one should be killed in the name of a religion."
I don't have an issue with Islam, but I mean this is the second of these such attacks in 2 weeks where the attacker made his attack about religion. And it certainly isn't France's first run in with extremism.
I mean the Bataclan killings were just 5 short years ago. I remember because they happened one short week after I was in Paris for a vacation and had been staying very close to the area that was attacked. And of course the Islamic state took credit.
So how does France see its way out of this to ensure life is preserved, liberty is preserved and the rights of its citizens to practice Islam is preserved?
How does this cycle of violence end?
I was talking to a coworker this morning about this and he became very offended at the notion that the news brought the religion of the attacker into this:
"What's Islam have to do with this? If those people were properly social distancing at home, they wouldn't have been killed." And then he went off on a rant about Christians killing abortion doctors... and I'm like "dude, yes that's wrong too, no one should be killed in the name of a religion."
I don't have an issue with Islam, but I mean this is the second of these such attacks in 2 weeks where the attacker made his attack about religion. And it certainly isn't France's first run in with extremism.
I mean the Bataclan killings were just 5 short years ago. I remember because they happened one short week after I was in Paris for a vacation and had been staying very close to the area that was attacked. And of course the Islamic state took credit.
So how does France see its way out of this to ensure life is preserved, liberty is preserved and the rights of its citizens to practice Islam is preserved?
The only reason this is happening is because of a belief in something that factually does not exist, not any more than Santa. Society doesn't have to tolerate the existence of institutions that teach obvious lies. There are no gods, no supernatural beings, we know that, period. There is no need to accept this anymore than Q churches. Do something else with the buildings, but stop teaching ignorance and lies.
This is not a "France" thing.
This is not a "France" thing.
organized religion has done some good for some people, but it is not worth the countless lives that were lost because of it throughout the ages
maybe it's finally time to burn it all down
maybe it's finally time to burn it all down
Not to mention all the bigotry it causes for LGBT people, especially Islam & Christianity.
It has not done much good if any at all that could not have happened without it. Heck, the refusal to accept that climate change is real is rooted in religious belief. That alone outweighs any supposed good.
Its apparent with how the entire world stood up as one voice, united, and....continues to do business with china.
Sorry you gotta go through this, maybe take a break from the thread, I know I am. Because much like children(especially on planes), era does not like religion. And this is coming from an atheist. I agree though, the Islamophobic comments aren't really needed to discuss this.
I don't want to distract or strawman, but others keep bringing up "all religions" so im compelled to respond.
I mean the number one terrorist threat in the US at least are far right groups which utilize christian apocalyptic fetishism to justify their acts or are outward in their Christian beliefs. Not to mention people in the west have used Christianity to just hundred of years and ongoing oppression.
Hindu nationalism which conflates a whole lot of things is being used to supress entire populations in India. Roving groups of Christian terrorists also exist throughout the continent of Africa.
And of course there are many Islam based groups doing violence as well.
Also your logic about Israel is interesting. You don't consider the state as representative of all Judaism (and I agree) but you consider individuals actions and radical groups as representatives of their faith?
Again, none of this excuses acts of violence. Fuck those people and I hope justice before the law is served. There is zero excuse for random acts of violence such as this and the people justifying it need to be held accountable before the ICC as facilitators of crimes against humanity.
User banned (1 month): Downplaying Islamophobia and talking down to a minority member’s concerns over a series of posts
I wasn't equating the two or didn't mean to if it comes across like I was. And while you never said anything about Muslim leaders it sure read to me as though you were saying people shouldn't have to distance themselves or condemn these attacks as they are a small minority of the Muslim community which it really shouldn't matter how large a percentage extremist ideology makes up, it should be called out and condemned, especially from people within that community that hold power.
I was hoping to understand why you feel personally responsible when people call for Muslims to denounce these attacks as I just don't understand why someone would feel that way. A woman has had her head cut off because of cartoons and you're upset that people want Muslims to condemn it because it might make people feel responsible. Which is something I just can't get my head around.
Why are you assuming the condemnation of these attacks is directly aimed at decent people or even sane ones? The hope is that with more outright condemnation from people with power and familiar ties we can prevent more attacks like these in the future by preventing the ideology to spread. Religion allows people to do awful things to other humans while feeling completely righteous while doing it. Do you think the person cutting off heads in the name of God was always going to end up hurting others? I don't believe they would and I think its wrong to say only evil people fall prey to extremism.
I sure as hell hope we lived in a world where every white supremacist Christian terrorist was denounced by everyone in that community and within the family. White supremacy wouldn't be so damn widespread if people were willing to condemn it at every opportunity.
This post really encapsulates how Islam is caricatured as the less civilized ideology among the Abrahamic trio, where Christian extremism is obscured as "racism and sexism", Israel (but what they really should mean is Zionism) gets a pass. Zionism is just as violent as Islamic extremism. Christchurch was last year. Folks want to make Islam uniquely backwards or deranged and the math is not mathing. You hide behind a general anti religion stance but willfully ignore the harm caused by extremism caused by Christians and Zionists to paint Islam as uniquely savage.
You seem bent on taking my comment out of context and trying to turn this around on me for politely asking people don't put Muslims in further danger, so I'm just going to report you.
This fucker is comparing fucking cartoons to the Holocaust... meanwhile there's an actual genocide against the Uyghurs and not a peep.
There is a whole lot of islamophobia flying around this thread being excused for atheism.
Which I gotta say, is real shitty at a time where evangelicals have committed multiple acts of terror in the US in the past decade, without ANYONE coming down on the whole community.
Nevermind what is happening in other countries, mind your own fence.
Meanwhile, there are multiple genocides and massive systemic oppression happening to Muslims worldwide.
As for France, I hope they find solutions to this that isn't "further harm Muslim communities". As much as the some French citizens may want that.
Which I gotta say, is real shitty at a time where evangelicals have committed multiple acts of terror in the US in the past decade, without ANYONE coming down on the whole community.
Nevermind what is happening in other countries, mind your own fence.
Meanwhile, there are multiple genocides and massive systemic oppression happening to Muslims worldwide.
As for France, I hope they find solutions to this that isn't "further harm Muslim communities". As much as the some French citizens may want that.
How though? What can you even do to help someone who beheads somebody?
In each of your respones to me you've ignored my question of why you feel personally responsible for people who want Muslims to condemn the attacks and why that specifically puts them in danger. I just wanted to understand your reasoning but if you can't or don't want to be bothered that's up to you.
As we all know, bigots have always made sure to separate the people they are bigoted to. She feels that way because she's been on the receiving end of the bigotry that these types of thoughts and comments usually inspire. That you can't understand that shows privilege. Minorities are always expected to speak on behalf of their group, the onus is always on them to show that they aren't that bad and to basically perform for the larger dominant group.
Knowing the French, they'll reach into their playbook and bring back those re-education camps that lasted a year, some years ago. Might be a bit too on the nose given the current sentiment against China, however.
No I literally explained in my first response that my post was in response to posts speaking generally of Muslims, and not singling out people like Erdogan. You chose to ignore that and make it out like I was making myself a victim.
RIP to the victims. This is going to serve as fuel for the far right. Islamophobia is only going to increase after this. That in turn will result in more frequent attacks like this unfortunately.
RIP to the victims. I want to say i was kinda in shock with the absolute garbage posted in this forum by some members trying to blame the victim in the latest incident. Vomit inducing.
Marches won't solve anything, nor banners or tweets, and the more we enable this behavior, the more populism will prevail and take control of public institutions.
Marches won't solve anything, nor banners or tweets, and the more we enable this behavior, the more populism will prevail and take control of public institutions.
I dont understand, what can France can do to prevent people from beheading others, besides treating their Muslim community better? That doesn't really address the root cause (religious extremism) of these attacks, but is obviously an important thing to do.
The bigger question I'm getting at is how can we crack down on religious extremism and religiously motivated killings without making existing communities uncomfortable?
The bigger question I'm getting at is how can we crack down on religious extremism and religiously motivated killings without making existing communities uncomfortable?
Ignore them, they aren't worth your time. I'm not a muslim but there are certain things I've come to acceptance with discrimination. You can't reason with those.
Because most of these countries are significantly economically dependent on China, where as with France if they want to boycott them for the fundamentalist votes and nationalist clout there isn't much of a loss because what do they even get from them outside of some grocery store items like cheese and wine or whatever anyway? France and Canada and so on are easy targets to make an example of "the west"
I mean even Erdogan and his relationship with Trump and other American republicans considering everything they have said that he didn't say shit about
Point to one post here of "islamophobia excused for atheism" or else don't make baseless accusations.
People are allowed to criticize religion without being called bigots.
Religion is institutionalized willful ignorance. Then we wonder why we have Q and climate change deniers, and society has to just accept to suffer all the consequences, and even give discriminatory tax breaks to such institutions. For what?
Can I get privileges for choosing to not believe in reality, and even more if I create an institution that spreads such ignorance?
Seems that instead, it is atheism-phobia that is disguised as protecting "freedom". Enough with the privileges granted for believing in superstition.
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TA-DAH!
We good now?
As I said, this same energy isn't shared when Evangelicals are running wild in the US, whether it be due to abortions, straight up racism, homophobia, whatever their reason.
This same energy isn't shared when Modi stokes his Hindu Nationalist flame and ruins/ends Muslim lives in India.
etc. etc. Before we say "fuck all religions" (which doesn't begin to resolve the problem, which is anti-intellectualism and radicalization. Qanon and Incels prove that can be done without religions), lets hone in on the double standards provided to different religions first? Can we have nuance here?
Even the UK has presented better solutions cracking down on extremism than France, yet what are people ITT rooting for? More Muslims in cuffs? More community "crackdowns"? More overpolicing? We have seen how well that works in minority communities around the world. It doesn't.
There is nothing wrong with asking the governments to do better. To promote solutions that don't further beat down minorities, stoking the flames of the extremists they supposedly want to stop.
This is a terrible tragedy and I hope whoever radicalised the criminal is gonna get their due.
With that being said, I don't really understand what some of the posters want a Muslim community to do. We have as much responsibility for such people's deeds as an average Australian for Brenton Tarrant. Most Muslim religious leaders already condemning every act of violence done in the name of Islam, it got to the sad point there someone had to compile the entire list of Muslim leaders condemning terrorism just to combat "Muslims are silent" rhetoric that is always finds its way into discussion after tragedies like that.
With that being said, I don't really understand what some of the posters want a Muslim community to do. We have as much responsibility for such people's deeds as an average Australian for Brenton Tarrant. Most Muslim religious leaders already condemning every act of violence done in the name of Islam, it got to the sad point there someone had to compile the entire list of Muslim leaders condemning terrorism just to combat "Muslims are silent" rhetoric that is always finds its way into discussion after tragedies like that.
They don't think, they believe. Religion intrinsically does not promote thinking, it promotes believing.
I see a few people who quoted me immediately filled in the blanks as far as my intentions or meaning. No surprise there.
My point is entirely that Islam is used as an excuse for violence moreso than the other 2 Abrahamic religions. The Christian and Judaic methods are more subversive (but very damaging as well). If someone has an issue with me saying that, look at ISIS. I don't see alt-righters decapitating people and blowing up buildings (yet). They are using social media and other methods to oppress and harm people. The in-person physical violence is not as common.
If people want to interpret that as saying one is worse than the other, have at it. To me it's an observation, and likely can be explained in one way or another.
Every time shit like this happens I always wonder why don't these islamic extremists just live in a self contained community like the Amish. If they are so unhappy with living in a secular society why don't they move to a place that embraces beheadings like Saudi Arabia.
God thank you.
I have been pushing back but people seem to be okay with their atheism being used to justify intolerance.
In fact, it's fucking derailing when we should be mourning. The rampant islamophobia on this forum seems excused.
I feel like people use these threads to simply shout that they are better because they are atheists and fucking virtual signal their self to peace. Fuck that shit.
Literally this forum is allowing the promotion of intolerance.
Sorry for being intolerant of religious beheadings.
See two people can invent things to be mad about. Stop arguing against a strawman.
These sort of sarcastic, baity, remarks do nothing. Nobody said that.
Since era can't have a thread mourning loss and have a semi educated conversation about the topic. Just fucking lock this shit.
It's funny because I'm agnostic, but the discrimination is pretty easy to see regardless.
Instead of wanting solutions to actually help Muslim communities and France at large, it's more about vengeance and punishment via overpolicing and forcing apologies from those who didn't perform or condone the acts.
I've condemned family members for holding racist and bigoted beliefs and in the process lost loved ones that were close to me so when I see someone say that people shouldn't expect Muslims or any community to denounce religious extremist violence, specifically a beheading, in this case, I have a difficult time understanding that mindset. And it very well may be my privilege of being a white male living in Canada and not having to deal with the terrible bigotry you've experienced in life.
I'm sorry for making you feel like that. It wasn't my intention. And I am sorry for the shit you've had to put up with from bigots.
Dude, all these psychopaths need to do is to join Israel or US military. The in-person physical violence is just not in your backyard.
User Banned (1 Month): Victim Blaming
If drawing a specific cartoon will, without fail, cause some psycho to kill one of your neighbors, then at what point does responsibility become shared?
Is the solution just an endless cycle of provocation in order to reaffirm your individual freedom until there are no more zealots or no more neighbors?
A consequentialist would argue that "It's just a cartoon" is inherently flawed. Maybe that approach would work to shame people out of radicalization in a different universe, but it seems to not work here.
You're literally arguing into the emptiness of people being islamophobic when the overwhelming sentiment in this thread was bemoaning another victim to religion.
Im atheist. And I have been militant in the past, but it's the wrong take for sure. Militant atheism encourages the equal opposite. It's literally how Baathist regimes help pave the way for modern extremism in the middle east.
It is really "emptiness" when people in this community are muslim and their faith is being conflated illogically with the radical actions of murderers?
There are people in this thread who are muslim, christian, and jewish, and others and plenty have taken this tragedy as their soapbox to say fuck "all religions" and degrade others. The first fucking page has people saying that shit.
This place just doesn't seem safe for people of faith and im Atheist.
Absolutely barbaric. Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to get better anytime soon, considering the reactions of a lot of people over the drawnings :/
Bit ironic to say "Nevermind what is happening in other countries, mind your own fence." while comparing acts of terrors in the US and France and taking a shot at France's attempt at solving the problem in the same post don't you think?
Also, two wrongs don't make a right. While there definitely should be harsher criticism toward evangelical conservatism and zionist conservatism considering the harm that they bring to the world (homophobia, transphobia, racism, sexism, etc...), it doesn't mean that we should stay silent about what's happening with radical islam, and it's undeniable that there's a very significant radicalization problem amongst Muslims. Terror groups like al qaeda and isis wouldn't exist otherwise and we wouldn't be seeing horrible attacks such as these.
I'd also like to point out that people have called out the Uyghur genocide, including... France. On the other hand, quite a few Muslim countries (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, ...) haven't ironically enough.
The responsability for a murder/terror act always falls on the murderer/terrorist. Hell, you can say this for pretty much any crime.
Bit ironic to say "Nevermind what is happening in other countries, mind your own fence." while comparing acts of terrors in the US and France and taking a shot at France's attempt at solving the problem in the same post don't you think?
Also, two wrongs don't make a right. While there definitely should be harsher criticism toward evangelical conservatism and zionist conservatism considering the harm that they bring to the world (homophobia, transphobia, racism, sexism, etc...), it doesn't mean that we should stay silent about what's happening with radical islam, and it's undeniable that there's a very significant radicalization problem amongst Muslims. Terror groups like al qaeda and isis wouldn't exist otherwise and we wouldn't be seeing horrible attacks such as these.
I'd also like to point out that people have called out the Uyghur genocide, including... France. On the other hand, quite a few Muslim countries (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, ...) haven't ironically enough.
Never. Implying otherwise is gross as fuck.
The responsability for a murder/terror act always falls on the murderer/terrorist. Hell, you can say this for pretty much any crime.
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Any religion shouldn't get a free pass, and it's perfectly valid to criticize a religion that justifies murder because they are offended.