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Reuters: Three dead in knife attack in French church, woman beheaded
- Thread starter It’s Time To Go
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Countries like Saudi Arabia and Turkey are funding imams in Europe to avoid that.
How far gone do you have to be to murder someone over a freaking cartoon?
That level of insanity is staggering.
That level of insanity is staggering.
I mean you had people blaming the victim on this very forum in the last thread so apparently not that far
Be that as it may, I don't think anybody should risk their lives and others right now to make that stand and "expose the crazies." It's far too dangerous.
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Do you question massacres commited by white nationalist fuckwads? This is the same. Merely intolerance, insanity & probably reclaiming their honor or some inane crap along those lines.
No sense to make of it, which is what is genuinely frightening. This is what happens when overzealous bigots, who believe that they have a role to play in a cosmic chain of events, and who harbour nothing but hatred and contempt for anyone not embracing their view of the world...get emboldened by people in power that use religion to galvanise the common man-and woman-.
The Muftis and Ulamas need to speak up; The religious madrassas and schools need to answer form the programs that they have been teaching youngsters for ages. Countries such as Saudi Arabia, which have promoted and financed the most violent and backward "version" of Islam (it is more complex than that, as I believe that the message of Islam has been corrupted almost immediately after the death of the prophet...It is a long and arduous discussion that I see no need to delve in) should be publicly condemned, and any ties with them severed, until they repent and stop fostering these movements; France and other nations that have Muslim communities should be more intransigeant: The law stands above all, and no exception should be made to anybody, regardless of their race, religion or cultural background. Let whoever feels like complaining do so, but do not cede an inch to anyone who seems intent on destabilising a whole country for selfish reasons...
A worse plague than anything else 2020 could throw up. There's no vaccination against extremism.
The attacker didn't care about the victims, but about the location.
It's a racist dog whistle, conflating extremists with the rest of the Muslim population, as if billions of Muslims are in conflict, incapable of existing peacefully (they're in crisis!), its lunacy. He was wrong for other-ing Muslims and rightfully slammed for it. If you continue to blur the lines between these extremists and Muslims like the far right do that's a dangerous path that continues marginalises communities. There's no question regarding the extremism that leads to blood lust over a cartoon, it's beyond belief, but that needs to be treated as a form of depravity by these actors not something that is intrinsic of a group of people because they may share a second name.
My condolences to the families that lost loved ones, horrible situation, Im honestly lost for words at the level of brutality. Terrifying.
Oh that's a fair point.
I misinterpreted your post as victim blaming.
That absolutely wasn't my intention, any mods out there seeing reports for that post! The murderers are absolutely, unquestionably the bad guys. I just don't see how the media getting retaliatory wouldn't result in even more people dying.
User Banned (3 Months): Xenophobic dogwhistle, prior severe infraction for antisemitism.
Can't say I disagree with Macron's stance on this and closing down the mosque of the teacher beheader which was peddling extremist philosophy to its attendants. I'm sorry but we have a different set of beliefs in the west over this stuff and a right to freedom of expression. Forbidding us from expressing that should never be allowed and if you hold such an extreme belief (that leads mentally deranged people to kill and behead innocent people) then you have no place here.
We wouldn't welcome in a religious cult if they abused children, so why allow these kinds of people?
There's Islamophonia for sure which I detest, but I don't think it's wrong to discriminate against people with an absolutely beyond fucked moral compass to the point where drawing cartoons in any way justifies even a modicum of violence, nevermind this insanity.
We wouldn't welcome in a religious cult if they abused children, so why allow these kinds of people?
There's Islamophonia for sure which I detest, but I don't think it's wrong to discriminate against people with an absolutely beyond fucked moral compass to the point where drawing cartoons in any way justifies even a modicum of violence, nevermind this insanity.
Reminder that there's a fucking cultural genocide against Muslims happening in China right now but these motherfuckers are more upset about a cartoon being shown. Fuck these pigs.
What a terrible tragedy. Nobody should have to die at the hands of extremists.
I agree. If people recently decided to be vocal about a boycott, but then also decide to stay very silent about gruesome beheadings that's very curious behavior.
I agree. If people recently decided to be vocal about a boycott, but then also decide to stay very silent about gruesome beheadings that's very curious behavior.
France attack: Three killed in 'Islamist terrorist' stabbings
President Macron says France will not give up its values after the attack at the Notre-Dame basilica.www.bbc.co.uk
Sad to say, but... no surprise.
France is a scary place. When I was in Paris last October a muslim extremeist walked into a police station a killed a bunch of police officers.
Fuck.
Fuck.
European-living Turks tend to vote Erdogan at a higher rate than Turkish living Turks. Erdogan's behavior is purely politically motivated.
Perhaps an anonymous computer virus could be used to accustom Islam to a world with caricatures. A type of worm that lies dormant on a device while spreading and eventually inserts drawings of religious symbols, not even disrespectful ones. With no physical target to lash out on, the vocal part of Islam would have to learn to just deal with the reality that these things will exist.
I don't mean to encourage such a virus illegally, but rather have a range of software developers concerned with this issue «unintentionally» expose such a weakness to be exploited.
I don't mean to encourage such a virus illegally, but rather have a range of software developers concerned with this issue «unintentionally» expose such a weakness to be exploited.
Thank YOU ! I'm Tunisian and although I don't identify with the religion myself, it's part of my upbringing and culture. Sometimes I feel bad and guilty for the tolerant branch of the West when I read all the horrible comments in Arabic and find myself incapable of conveying how, yes, there are many people who have these vile and cruel thoughts.
Highest number of victims of hate crime are Muslims , at least here in UK, this type of language emboldens racist that come after them. Its a sweeping generalisation that condemns an entire community for something they've not participated in, it's indiscriminate, all the features of racism. Sorry, you may not be impacted, but Muslims will tell you this type of rhetoric continues to invite prejudice and harm upon them for simply existing.
But this is about the awful events that has taken place and I'd like not to take the attention away from that. So I'm not going to continue with this branch of discussion, and say I respectfully disagree. My wife told me about this and my heart sank for the victims and for France. It's just so depressing. Over a cartoon :(.
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I absolutely disagree with your take. Islam, as a whole, is in a deep crisis, and has been for centuries. It started with the demise of the Muu'tazila -The faction that subordinates the text to the mind: Logic should dictate how the text is read, interpreted and acted upon, and not the opposite-, went through several failed reform attempts and ended up in this abysmal state because of the dominant Wahabi movement.
The germs of the extremism are within the dogma itself, and are part and parcel of Islam as a politic-socio-religious structure. Almost all of what we, Muslims, believe in, is merely the input of a few people that took it upon themselves to analyze the "sacred" text and compile the hadiths (deeds and sayings of the prophet) almost 13 centuries ago...And that exegesis goes unchallenged. Have you ever heard of any realm or human domain, in which the tools that serve to weigh and judge have remained stagnant for close to a millennium and half a millennium? That would be laughed at but, no, it gets a free pass because of some made up reason.
Islam has most certainly been corrupted (a criticism that Muslims love to formulate when discussing Christianity) and, I dare say, is completely misunderstood; Not by a minority, no, by 99% of Muslims. Muslim philosophers and thinkers have been raising this point for years, but they have all been ridiculed and accused of having been westernized, whatever that means. It is a shitty situation, and it will only get worse by not opening one's eyes to the bleakness of it all.
It doesn't make any sense to me to read those kinds of reactions. If criticising Islam is conflated as an attack on muslims that's a hundred percent of the problem right there. People should have no respect for religious texts, they explicitly treat women as chattel, they endorse slavery, they endorse capital punishement for made up crimes or "sins" such as apostasy, homosexuality, working on a fucking week end.
Those would be laughable if they weren't taken as injunctions straight from god. Every religion with that kind of garbage in it should be in crisis. If the best rebuttal you have is that only a litteral interpretation of the text could lead someone to take hateful stuff like I mentionned above seriously then you don't have any argument at all. If any law or text of any importance in any modern democracy could be interpreted litterally to demand death for thought crime people all around the world would legitimately be in the fucking streets to demand change to be made to that law.
I can respect that someone has beliefs I'm however under no obligation to respect the beliefs themselves and I sure as hell fucking don't. Because beliefs don't exist in a vacuum they inform actions and the source of those beliefs explicitly contradict the humanist underpinning of any just society. You can cherry pick the people loving Jesus Christ instead of the fire and brimstone old testament genocidal maniac all you want, but religious texts hold no more wisdom in them than any other fiction from that backwards era of human society.
Nah, fuck them. If you bow to terrorists, they win. I've got the biggest respect for people who stand up to them.
Don't victim blame.
I fully agree that France, and the to be honest the whole non-Muslim world, has huge problems with Islamophobia that we all need to do our part to help end.
And that the attacks on Muslims barley being reported on is indefensible, it only adds to the issue and those attacks should be treated as terrorism as well, because it is.
But I respectfully disagree that claiming an ideology is in crisis is in anyway phobic or racist.
From my point of view, the reactions of the caricatures and Macron's statements puts a light on how extreme the bond between Islam and a lot of moderate Muslims is and how hard it is to separate ideology from person. People take criticism of a ideology personally when they should not and this creates a hotbed for extremism.
I'm not going to claim to be knowledgeable on Islam but it is my understanding that forgiveness is very important because it is valued when you are judged by Allah. And it appears to me, that this is not reflected at all in the response to criticism or ridicule of Islam. ( but it could also be me not understanding when to forgive according to the teachings. )
I believe that openly calling for boycott was used to abuse this extreme bond to trigger people to come out to defend an ideology and religious person that does not need to be defended and that it will be used by extremists to help justify their horrendous acts.
The response to Macron could of been handled much more mature and sensible.
To come think about it as I write this, calling them clowns was uncalled for and I apologies.
I feel for the Muslim community in the UK, because I've personally encountered far too many white people who assume that because I'm also white, they can throw in casual racism about Muslim people and Islam in general. I know it happens, and it must be awful to experience first-hand.
At the same time, though, Macron wasn't wrong. Unless I'm really missing something, it seems pretty accurate to frame Islam as a religion in crisis when the vast majority of its peaceful adherents are being repeatedly pulled into the spotlight by not just a few lone nutcases, but by multiple entire nations where the same seeds of radicalism have taken root. It's not just a case of these radical actors committing murder; it's a case of them receiving tacit or explicit support from heads of state.
For what it's worth, it's also accurate to call Christianity a religion in crisis, because of the damage its exportation to Africa and elsewhere continues to cause, when compared to the relatively peaceful nature of most Christians. I'm not singling out Islam here. It just happens to be the topic at hand.
This is a quote retweet to Charlie Hebdo's latest cover making fun of Erdogan. This one had quite a few likes and retweets and was posted by a blue checkmark account (although I have no idea who he is), so I google translate it:
Can someone who speaks Turkish clarify if this is as bad as it sounds? Referring to a drawing as "terrorism" and calling for revenge. I reported the tweet the day before yesterday, and now that I read the news I went to check and the tweet is still up.
The disgusting shit people do because of their dumb fuck superstitious nonsense. Sad situation. Fucking hell.
Am I misreading this, or are we getting some sort of excuse for terrorism with a "Well, France IS kinda Islamophobic" rhetoric from this post? I assume I'm misunderstanding here, so maybe you could clarify, Muffin? At best, this seems like the wrong topic to try and argue that France is to blame for the attacks against it/its people.
The blasphemy laws in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan etc. that executes people for insulting the prophet is probably responsible for normalizing shit like this. Like we had threads here last month about Nigeria and a 12 year old sentenced to 10 years hard labor in prison for blasphemy or the singer sentenced to death because his song elevated some Imam over the prophet. No one gave a damn about it then - but since it's happening in a first world country it's different. People being executed for this is the law in these countries and makes extremists think that it's the right thing to do.
Unfortunately there will always be someone who takes offense at a cartoon and we are always going to see this struggle between free speech and criticism/mockery of religion in the West and extremists wanting to chop off heads in response.
More and more it feels like religious extremism is increasing all around the world.
Unfortunately there will always be someone who takes offense at a cartoon and we are always going to see this struggle between free speech and criticism/mockery of religion in the West and extremists wanting to chop off heads in response.
Yes, all religions are in crisis. Hindus never used to be this offended. With Modi's backward, fascist, right wing hindu nutjobs riling up the base and making everything about religion, now there are Hindus ready to kill and massacre if someone insults their imaginary gods.
More and more it feels like religious extremism is increasing all around the world.
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Religious extremism in ALL forms is repugnant and has no place, and should bit be respected. My fathers side of my family is Islamic, I hate thay this will blowback on everyday muslims, but radical religious views frankly are incompatible with living in a modern pluralistic society.
Islamaphobia is wrong and should be condemned, but these extremist acts arent about Islamaphobia they are over a fucking cartoon amd have no place.
I edited my original post to refer to further discussion afterwards. Please read that if you take issue with my original post, there's no need to bring it up again.
I didn't say that the original attack was about anything else, so no clue where you got that from. I only took issue with calling out Muslims who may support the boycott for other more legitimate reasons. I think I explained that already so there's no need to repeat it.
RIP to the victims, but my hope is that people around the world look at the evil of these people, and not point to their religion as a broad brush.
But given that most right-wingers hate Islam, they absolutely will.
But given that most right-wingers hate Islam, they absolutely will.