Ewoks: The Battle For Endor and Wilford fucking Brimley would like to have a word with you.
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Return of the Jedi is the middlest Star Wars movie.
- Thread starter Robin
- Start date
Ewoks: The Battle For Endor and Wilford fucking Brimley would like to have a word with you.
I too found it almost offensive as a viewer, like, do you think I'm this stupid. Not only was the scene super predictable (most of us wrote about it when the movie was announced) but it was done in a way that made it just an edgy spectacle. Darth Vader isn't even that kind of badass character in the series.
And for fuck's sake, if you want to use him as a slasher, then make him kill the fucking main characters (also make them likeable, but I understand this is asking for too much)
God, Rogue One was bad.
Right, but you can cement someone's legacy as a great evil without having the audience cheer for him slaughtering innocents like cattle.
This is a movie where the heroes all died horribly and we're supposed to WOOOOO for the main villain cutting people in half? It's not a damn horror movie where the protagonists are shitty people and half the point of the film is schadenfreude.
Whoops forgot to add that with Caravan. It is the better one.
As a kid I didn't like that the Ewoks were so effective against the Empire and that Boba Fett got taken out so easily. The space battle and Throne Room is the best stuff though.
Rebels are the good guys but they aren't innocent. They aren't civilians in any sense of the word. They are obviously and expressly guilty of multiple crimes but law is not the end-all and be-all of morality. It's the middle if you subscribe to Kohlberg's Stages. I'm curious as to your definition of innocent because it's not at all what the Rebels are.
Rebels are the good guys but they aren't innocent. They aren't civilians in any sense of the word. They are obviously and expressly guilty of multiple crimes but law is not the end-all and be-all of morality. It's the middle if you subscribe to Kohlberg's Stages. I'm curious as to your definition of innocent because it's not at all what the Rebels are.
See, now this would have been offensive: throwing the main characters on Vader's blade for cool points instead of having them die for their cause. Their sacrifice enabled the destruction of the very superweapon that killed them. Fortunately, the movie has coherent themes, and the story respects the characters enough to make their deaths contribute to the overarching plot.
yup.
unlike RotS, where a garbage build up in the PT takes a lot of impact out of what is supposed to be the climactic battle (capped off with 'ive got the high ground!!'😂), Jedi's final confrontations are great and bolstered by the lead up of the OT.
They are flat characters that I wanted to see dead after like 10 minutes, one of them is a fucking murderer, the only likeable one was the droid. The fact that they die is cool, the way they do is completely empty of pathos, both in the way it's shot and in the way it's written. They really die because they have to, for the story. It's mechanical, you can see it. It's like if that guy from Indipendence Day just sent the airplane inside the UFO and then died 2 kilometers away from an explosion.
What I'm saying is that, if they really had to shoerhorn Vader there, they could have used him as a tangible menace for the main characters. Same corridor scene, but with subtlety and someone we care about in the inside. Instead we got an action scene which has no use in the plot except "this plans are going from point A to B" (which we already know since this is a spinoff of a movie that 3 billion people saw).
The first third + the finale are high watermarks for the series.
I think the Endor stuff is whatever, but the skybox and speeder chase are iconic af.
The only bad opinion is anything other than OT > NT > PT, individual movie order is mostly personal preference anyway.
I think the Endor stuff is whatever, but the skybox and speeder chase are iconic af.
The only bad opinion is anything other than OT > NT > PT, individual movie order is mostly personal preference anyway.
but what would that make it different? you already said you dont care for the characters, them being killed by vader would suddenly make you like them or something?
I guess i saw it differently. I didn't take it as cheer for the villain. It simply showed why Darth Vader is feared throughout the galaxy. It was a perfect balance of fear that leads directly into hope.
- ESB
- ANH
- RotJ
- RotS
- TFA
- TPM
- AotC
- TLJ
- TRoS (assuming spoilers are 75% true...bringing Palps back is stupid)
I like Jedi more than Empire.
Sure there's some parts that aren't amazing, but overall it's such a satisfying ending. Nothing in Star Wars is better than the Emperor's throne room, and the Battle of Endor itself is amazing.
Sure there's some parts that aren't amazing, but overall it's such a satisfying ending. Nothing in Star Wars is better than the Emperor's throne room, and the Battle of Endor itself is amazing.
I still dont know anyone's name besides Jynn and Cassian. Monk guy, heavy artillery guy, pilot guy, and the robot.
Endor is probably the most boring that the OT movies ever got, with Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher not even trying to attempt to give a shit.
But you also have that space battle and arguably the greatest sequence of events in Star Wars with Luke, Vader, and Palpatine.
It is a weird movie.
But you also have that space battle and arguably the greatest sequence of events in Star Wars with Luke, Vader, and Palpatine.
It is a weird movie.
I love RotJ. It's always a fun rewatch. It's also funny that by the time the Jabba's Palace scene is over, you're pretty much halfway done with the movie lol.
The middle is definitely where it flounders, but the final act is fantastic.
It's up there with my favorite Star Wars movies. The ones I can rewatch over and over again. Those are Empire, TFA, TLJ, and Rogue One. Maybe RoTs if I want to laugh at some of the more quotable lines (not a fan of the prequels, but it legit has some great quotable lines).
The middle is definitely where it flounders, but the final act is fantastic.
It's up there with my favorite Star Wars movies. The ones I can rewatch over and over again. Those are Empire, TFA, TLJ, and Rogue One. Maybe RoTs if I want to laugh at some of the more quotable lines (not a fan of the prequels, but it legit has some great quotable lines).
ROTJ Still has the best space battle
Battle of Endor was on par with the Battle of Yavin. I think I like Endor's battle more because of the music, but it's just personal stuff, trench run was beyond perfect.
Never had a problem with the Ewocks either... Sometimes I think I enjoyed this more than Empire.
Eh?
Governor Tarkin:
The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.
General Tagge:
But that's impossible. How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
Governor Tarkin:
The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
Then what the fuck is TFA?
Yes.
Exactly, I'd say it and TLJ have many of the same problems.
I can hear the track playing
GOAT lightsaber fight, GOAT space battle,GOAT Star Wars
Yes.
Exactly, I'd say it and TLJ have many of the same problems.
The Emperor was not a character in the first movie. He served no narrative purpose. That was what I was saying.
Return of the Jedi certainly has its good moments (the space battles are particularly well done), but I've always disliked how it took much of the dramatic setup from ESB and just punted on many of its story points in the least dramatic ways possible. Like how at the end of ESB we discover Obi-Wan had lied to Luke about his father. So instead of a dramatic scene where Luke confronts Obi-Wan about it, the whole issue's hand-waved away with that "certain point of view" speech. Or that Luke-Han-Leia love triangle thing that had been simmering for the past couple of movies. Instead of a dramatic scene where somebody has to make a choice, Luke and Leia are retconned into siblings and any possible drama evaporates.
It's a film with some high points, but a lot of wasted potential - though not as bad as the prequels that would follow it.
It's a film with some high points, but a lot of wasted potential - though not as bad as the prequels that would follow it.
Return of the Jedi has a great final 20 minutes. From the moment Leia and Han try to infiltrate the Empire base on the moon to the final shot with Luke looking at the force ghosts, everything is great. I don't care for anything else before that.
3rd best after ESB/ANH.
If it had wookies instead of ewoks as originally planned it would be as good as ANH. Everything that happens in the throne room is outstanding.
If it had wookies instead of ewoks as originally planned it would be as good as ANH. Everything that happens in the throne room is outstanding.
Not that I've watched it that many times, but I've never noticed that Luke's saber just stops and sparks on the railings. Weak ass laser beam sword.
I can hear the track playing
GOAT lightsaber fight, GOAT space battle, GOAT Star Wars
Not only that but Vader is clearly second in charge to TARKIN in ANH on top of that.
RotJ's bookends are fantastic and some of the best Star Wars material there is with the Jabba stuff and the finale throne room/space battle. Add to it the touching Yoda stuff and no amount of Ewoks can drag it down much. It's a great SW film and a solid #3 behind Empire and a New Hope.
Its truly impressive how well it sticks the landing and delivers a satisfying conclusion to the story.
Its truly impressive how well it sticks the landing and delivers a satisfying conclusion to the story.
As a kid, it was absolution by far my favorite of the three movies. Bad ass dark Luke with a new green saber! Rancor fight. Sail barge sequence. Yoda's death. Obi-Wan revealing Leia as Luke's sis. Awesome speeder chase on Endor. Luke reveals to Leia they are bro and sis. Throne room scenes with emperor. Best space battle ever. Luke vs Vader fight. Luke's "Noooooo" then raging on Vader.
"I am a Jedi like my father before me."
Emperor lightning! Vader redemption! Final moments between Luke and Vader. Yub nub!
What a movie!
At least for me, the film is a disappointment, especially since it's the conclusion of the OT.
-> Useless and boring first act: Tatoine once again, Jabba sucks, and the pacing is terrible.
-> Bobba Fett's terrible death.
-> Han is back to do nothing?
-> Deathstar again, and in so little time? TFA shares a similar problem, but Starkiller isn't really another deathstar.
-> Almost no character development for Luke. He's already a Jedi Knight from the beginning and they had to retcon Leia as his sister to have any challenge for him in this film. All he does is "gotta convince my father -> Resist falling to the Dark Side after having his sister threatened -> Emperor tries to kill him -> Saved by his father".
-> Darth Vader desconstruction. He's a merciless antagonist in 4 and 5, and then when he's revealed to be Luke's father he's not anymore?
-> Leia being Luke's sister sucks and makes the whole saga a family drama.
-> Ewoks are boring, and the final battle in the planet between the eworks and the empire is terrible. At least it wasn't the Wookies planet, or it would've shrunk the universe even more.
-> Space battle isn't great too, it's basically "we're fucked until the heros disable the shield and profit". Compare with the tension from episodes 4 and 5 (or 8) space battles and how much more happens in these battles.
-> Useless and boring first act: Tatoine once again, Jabba sucks, and the pacing is terrible.
-> Bobba Fett's terrible death.
-> Han is back to do nothing?
-> Deathstar again, and in so little time? TFA shares a similar problem, but Starkiller isn't really another deathstar.
-> Almost no character development for Luke. He's already a Jedi Knight from the beginning and they had to retcon Leia as his sister to have any challenge for him in this film. All he does is "gotta convince my father -> Resist falling to the Dark Side after having his sister threatened -> Emperor tries to kill him -> Saved by his father".
-> Darth Vader desconstruction. He's a merciless antagonist in 4 and 5, and then when he's revealed to be Luke's father he's not anymore?
-> Leia being Luke's sister sucks and makes the whole saga a family drama.
-> Ewoks are boring, and the final battle in the planet between the eworks and the empire is terrible. At least it wasn't the Wookies planet, or it would've shrunk the universe even more.
-> Space battle isn't great too, it's basically "we're fucked until the heros disable the shield and profit". Compare with the tension from episodes 4 and 5 (or 8) space battles and how much more happens in these battles.
Hard disagree. ROTJ ties the OT together and cemented it as one of the greatest IPs of all time with arguably some of the best space combat ever seen in film. It isn't quite as plot and suspense heavy as ESB but makes up for it with the quite frankly incredible special effects action sequences of the day. It even holds up to modern day fully CG star wars action scenes.
For me it forms part of a satisfying trilogy and it has some of the best moments of the whole saga. All the Vader/Luke stuff, especially their tense talk when Luke gives himself up, is just wonderful. Luke losing it and finally defeating Vader, Vader finally making the right choice.. beautiful music. It has a great final third. Huge amazing space battle. Speeder bike chase is like earsex in the audio department.
First third is a drag, such a shame they couldn't have sped that up somehow.
I'm not even gonna talk about the prequel trash, least of all dignifying RotS.
First third is a drag, such a shame they couldn't have sped that up somehow.
I'm not even gonna talk about the prequel trash, least of all dignifying RotS.
trying what too hard?
everything he said could be treated as true.
i still like and love the movie tho
I was actually studying the story structure of the OT over the weekend, and one of the things I found interesting is how awkward RotJ's pacing is, with the first act having to pull double-duty as a fifth act to ESB, which leaves the rest of the story feeling cramped and underdeveloped.
Yea, I think this is totally valid!
Interestingly enough, this is something TROS might be able to avoid since TLJ had such a definitive ending.
Here's hoping. I think TFA actually had a similar problem to RotJ, actually, in that it started out as one story (the search for Luke), then ditched that to focus on something completely different (Starkiller base).
RotJ might have worked better if the whole Tatooine narrative had more to do with the rest of the film - maybe had the heroes trying to get something out of Jabba, like Imperial codes for the stolen shuttle, on top of saving Han.