I'm only halfway through, but I love the Bioshock episode so far. I'm here to hear what everyone actually thinks about games and the culture around them in their historical context and with fresh, modern eyes. I don't need or want a fair and balanced wikipedia recitation.
It's episodes like this that remind me most of the original Retronauts that I fell in love with back on 1Up.
The first 42 minutes of the Bioshock episode feels like listening to somebody's gossipy aunt snark about their neighbors. All of that could have been presented with a bit more maturity. It's all good to place games within historical context but much of that part didn't feel particularly relevant nor necessary.
I'm only halfway through, but I love the Bioshock episode so far. I'm here to hear what everyone actually thinks about games and the culture around them in their historical context and with fresh, modern eyes. I don't need or want a fair and balanced wikipedia recitation.
It's episodes like this that remind me most of the original Retronauts that I fell in love with back on 1Up.
Let me be clear— the issue is not critical perspectives or historical context. The context presented felt acerbic and almost unfair. The historical look back belied a real negativity about people and things I really could have done without. And I guess I'm not the only one.
Scott sharkey would blush!
edit: Also the PS2 port of Deus Ex is surprisingly great.
I also played Half-Life on PS2 first. And Half-Life 2 on XBox first.
I found the lock-on shooting in the former actually really nice for a console experience, kind of Metroid Prime-ish.
Still one of my favorite podcasts. The Raiders of The Lost Ark one was fantastic as it is one of my favorite movies, although I did that thing where I talked back to the podcast because there was many the trivia factoids that were just wrong. I was all like "I should be there". At one point I was all "No Jeremy, Chris is right! You're confused!" haha
Let me be clear— the issue is not critical perspectives or historical context. The context presented felt acerbic and almost unfair. The historical look back belied a real negativity about people and things I really could have done without. And I guess I'm not the only one.
What are you talking about specifically? That Bob doesn't like David Cage, and everyone seemed unclear on how they felt about Levine after some awkward tweets and him falling off the map for the past few years?
Outside of certain quarters of the gaming media who specialize in eating their own tail, I don't think there was much of a backlash to Infinite. It came out in March, and nine months later it did rather well in Game of the Year awards and discussions.
Bioshock Infinite didn't have the staying power as the original Bioshock, and I don't anticipate it ever getting a more glowing appraisal like Bioshock 2 sometimes gets.
If anyone wants to play the text-based critique of Bioshock Infinite:
Listening to you talk about the 2600 version of Raiders of the Lost Ark, I was surprised how you couldn't figure out how kids played this game before the internet? With the instruction manual of course! It goes pretty in depth and has clues at the end that the book warns beforehand are spoilers. Here's a link to the pdf: http://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/...ed/Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark_-_1982_-_Atari.pdf
The latest episode on Bioshock was great because it really brought me back to that time in gaming and listening to 1up. Great fun! For the record I played Bioshock Infinite before the original Bioshock and I really enjoyed it unaware of all the drama and hype behind it. In retrospect I can see the cracks in the polish but it's still a fun game all the same with a lot of atmosphere.
One last thing: after having time to contemplate a little, there were games that originated on PC and made its way to consoles successfully prior to 2007: specifically Doom for Jaguar, SimCity for Snes, Starcraft 64 etc.
What are you talking about specifically? That Bob doesn't like David Cage, and everyone seemed unclear on how they felt about Levine after some awkward tweets and him falling off the map for the past few years?
Not trying to make a big hairy deal about it. It just could have been more tactful is all. Or better yet omitted entirely. I'm not a fan of Cage either, but this was a podcast about Bioshock. There is so much to talk about with this game, not sure I agree with the decision to spend time making awkward speculation about Levine's character. Halfway through the running time they still hadn't talked about what the game actually is. Most levels & characters get only a passing mention. By the time they get to talking about splicers they are rushing to end the podcast. There was barely any discussion on what Rapture actually is and what happened to it, and how the player is supposed to draw those conclusions.
On the other hand, I thought Butterfield in particular did a great job of raising some of the more nuanced & interesting aspects of the game design. Would have loved more of that. IMO, was a missed opportunity not diving deeper into the plasmid/weapon combo system, upgrade systems, individual levels/set-pieces and how they contrasted with each other, level design themes, subtle environmental guideposts, the detective-style piecing together clues about Rapture's history and downfall, artistic inspiration from popular movies, Big Daddy AI, limitations of the engine and how the developers tried to deal with it, etc. Comparisons to System Shock is obviously very apt, but when talking about an FPS from 2007, probably would have been good to spend more time talking about contemporary FPS's / what made Bioshock stand out / how it influenced/changed the genre on the whole.
In a game where audio is so integral to the experience, it seemed crazy not to edit more of the game's music, sound effects and dialogue into the podcast. I can imagine being one of the games' sound designers, and coming away very puzzled after listening to an audio retrospective about Bioshock wherein their ingenious work isn't even mentioned. I'd argue that above all else, sound design was Bioshocks' most successful aspect. With Butterfield on this episode, it was hard not to think about the Bonfireside Chat podcast and how effectively they would use specific audio edits to complement their discussion of Dark Souls. Bioshock easily deserves the same treatment.
Anyway, hoping this criticism is taken as constructive and not too much of a bummer.
Non-constructive criticism: At some point, Jeremy says "Ananthema". Heh. Sorry.
I still thought it was a pretty good podcast overall! Four circuses of values out of five. I just think Bioshock is an important enough game to deserve a bit more academic of an analysis. I know the cast is often strapped for time so it's likely not possible to deliver something much more in-depth; just putting it out there as an ideal, from a giant nerd who likes everything to be analyzed ad nauseam.
Keep 'em coming all the same. And stay tuned for my own podcast: Clu Clu Land and its parallels to the rise and fall of Bolshevik economic policy in post-industrial Monrovia.
Not trying to make a big hairy deal about it. It just could have been more tactful is all. Or better yet omitted entirely. I'm not a fan of Cage either, but this was a podcast about Bioshock. There is so much to talk about with this game, not sure I agree with the decision to spend time making awkward speculation about Levine's character. Halfway through the running time they still hadn't talked about what the game actually is. Most levels & characters get only a passing mention. By the time they get to talking about splicers they are rushing to end the podcast. There was barely any discussion on what Rapture actually is and what happened to it, and how the player is supposed to draw those conclusions.
On the other hand, I thought Butterfield in particular did a great job of raising some of the more nuanced & interesting aspects of the game design. Would have loved more of that. IMO, was a missed opportunity not diving deeper into the plasmid/weapon combo system, upgrade systems, individual levels/set-pieces and how they contrasted with each other, level design themes, subtle environmental guideposts, the detective-style piecing together clues about Rapture's history and downfall, artistic inspiration from popular movies, Big Daddy AI, limitations of the engine and how the developers tried to deal with it, etc. Comparisons to System Shock is obviously very apt, but when talking about an FPS from 2007, probably would have been good to spend more time talking about contemporary FPS's / what made Bioshock stand out / how it influenced/changed the genre on the whole.
In a game where audio is so integral to the experience, it seemed crazy not to edit more of the game's music, sound effects and dialogue into the podcast. I can imagine being one of the games' sound designers, and coming away very puzzled after listening to an audio retrospective about Bioshock wherein their ingenious work isn't even mentioned. I'd argue that above all else, sound design was Bioshocks' most successful aspect. With Butterfield on this episode, it was hard not to think about the Bonfireside Chat podcast and how effectively they would use specific audio edits to complement their discussion of Dark Souls. Bioshock easily deserves the same treatment.
Anyway, hoping this criticism is taken as constructive and not too much of a bummer.
Non-constructive criticism: At some point, Jeremy says "Ananthema". Heh. Sorry.
I still thought it was a pretty good podcast overall! Four circuses of values out of five. I just think Bioshock is an important enough game to deserve a bit more academic of an analysis. I know the cast is often strapped for time so it's likely not possible to deliver something much more in-depth; just putting it out there as an ideal, from a giant nerd who likes everything to be analyzed ad nauseam.
Keep 'em coming all the same. And stay tuned for my own podcast: Clu Clu Land and its parallels to the rise and fall of Bolshevik economic policy in post-industrial Monrovia.
I like the historical overview and personal impressions tack that Retronauts often takes. It would be nice if the episode was longer and they could have talked more in-depth about each system, but they at least touched on pretty much everything, and I enjoyed the conversation that they had in large part due to how natural and conversational it was. I'm not as big of a fan of the episodes where I can really hear the outline of the episode.
However, I can see where you're coming from. You mentioned Bonfireside Chat, so I'm sure you know about Gary's other podcast Watch Out for Fireballs. He does it with the same cohost, Kole, and they do the long, intensive deep dives about all the games' story, systems, etc. and use a lot of music cues in the same way as Bonfireside Chat. And they did episodes on Bioshock and Bioshock 2. If you haven't checked that out, I would definitely recommend it as it sounds like more of what you were looking for.
I like the historical overview and personal impressions tack that Retronauts often takes. It would be nice if the episode was longer and they could have talked more in-depth about each system, but they at least touched on pretty much everything, and I enjoyed the conversation that they had in large part due to how natural and conversational it was. I'm not as big of a fan of the episodes where I can really hear the outline of the episode.
However, I can see where you're coming from. You mentioned Bonfireside Chat, so I'm sure you know about Gary's other podcast Watch Out for Fireballs. He does it with the same cohost, Kole, and they do the long, intensive deep dives about all the games' story, systems, etc. and use a lot of music cues in the same way as Bonfireside Chat. And they did episodes on Bioshock and Bioshock 2. If you haven't checked that out, I would definitely recommend it as it sounds like more of what you were looking for.
I've heard of WOfF but haven't listened yet! Planning to. I was actually just recently introduced to the BonfireSide podcast from someone in the ResetEra Dark Souls: Remastered thread. It was really cool to have that podcast as an audio-guide for my play-through of the remaster. I really enjoyed the deep dive. I'll be checking out more Duckfeed stuff for sure.
After finishing the Bioshock episode I too would like to add that you are at your best when you are discussing games, their details, themes, and backstory, and at your worst when you are armchair quarterbacking studio management, game design, and public relations with the benefit of hindsight.
After finishing the Bioshock episode I too would like to add that you are at your best when you are discussing games, their details, themes, and backstory, and at your worst when you are armchair quarterbacking studio management, game design, and public relations with the benefit of hindsight.
No, I wouldn't agree that's a fair paraphrasing. I feel like there is a negativity about people, that I'm not looking for in the show.
It comes across like sanctimony. Simplifying the tough situations that fed these bad decisions in the past is part-and-parcel of the show in conveying them to the audience.
But reducing people themselves to these so-certain summary condemnations, so readily, in a show surveying the results of their (and many other's) efforts... it bothers me every time I hear it.
There is no supportable "both sides" arguments when it comes to white supremacists in the U.S. and Russia illegally installing Trump.
But that doesn't mean every argument in history has to be reduced to simple one-sided moral equivalencies.
Just my opinion, that I can certainly get over, but also my approach. I've never made a statement that is a value judgment of what type of person you are Bob. How would I even know?
I'd just prefer if the show didn't go negative this way. Would you kindly refrain?
I enjoyed the episode. I didn't mind the David Cage and Ken Levine dragging. Imbarkus and I have a bit of a history as well (I got your "would you kindly refrain" joke!). All that said, I think it's appropriate to sometimes step away from the keyboard and not engage negatively with fans who are trying to provide some constructive criticism, even if those fans have a history with certain people.
I just finished episode 138 ( Ship to Shore), and I started listening to the Darius soundtrack. I've never played any of the games for more than a minute, and the music is pretty awesome. At one point, though, I did a double take cause I thought I was listening to the Rastan soundtrack. Of course, both being Taito games, I hadn't made the connection between both games before today.
I enjoyed the episode. I didn't mind the David Cage and Ken Levine dragging. Imbarkus and I have a bit of a history as well (I got your "would you kindly refrain" joke!). All that said, I think it's appropriate to sometimes step away from the keyboard and not engage negatively with fans who are trying to provide some constructive criticism, even if those fans have a history with certain people.
To David Cage's credit, he was the only person with the vision to immortalize David Bowie in licensed digital form. Too bad his career went downhill from there. Dude peaked early.
Well, I can't wait for the Indigo Prophecy episode. :P
I have a question. Is there not a text list of all game episodes on the site? I can't find any easy way to see or remember if you've done a podcast on a game without just clicking through the main podcast page back and back, which is a bit slow to do. (This is a roundabout way to ask if y'all ever did an episode on Phantasmagoria... Halloween is coming up!)
To David Cage's credit, he was the only person with the vision to immortalize David Bowie in licensed digital form. Too bad his career went downhill from there. Dude peaked early.
I have Omikron from when they were giving it away after David Bowie died. Is it worth playing though? I've heard so many unflattering things about it as a game.
I have Omikron from when they were giving it away after David Bowie died. Is it worth playing though? I've heard so many unflattering things about it as a game.
oh man I love that the bbs online gaming episode had a surprise twist halfway through and it actually became an episode about nostalgia and game preservation
That's one of the rare episodes for which we put together no notes at all and decided to just let the conversation go wherever it wanted. Can't do that too often, but it's always fun to hear the results.
That's one of the rare episodes for which we put together no notes at all and decided to just let the conversation go wherever it wanted. Can't do that too often, but it's always fun to hear the results.
i would be way into that happening more often. obviously its kinda tough to "plan" for a conversation to organically happen, but i say don't bother reigning things in if it happens again
i would be way into that happening more often. obviously its kinda tough to "plan" for a conversation to organically happen, but i say don't bother reigning things in if it happens again
i would be way into that happening more often. obviously its kinda tough to "plan" for a conversation to organically happen, but i say don't bother reigning things in if it happens again
