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Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
Oh? Is that why miyamoto bragged about its internal teams "mastering" unreal engine 4.

And Nintendo would still be the one forking over the money to licence unreal for yoshi considering they are the ones funding and publishing the game.
Wouldn't Nintendo have to pay the UE4 license for Yoshi, seeing as it is their game regardless of the developer? Sony sure as hell is forking over the dough for UE4 on Days Gone.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think non Nintendo teams have a history of using Nintendo's engines even if they are funding and supervising.

And Retro could might as well be renamed epd Texas cause they are as Nintendo as the Japanese teams.

It's very possible Namco was using unreal, but I don't think there's any solid evidence to suggest it. Smash isn't using unreal, even if Namco helped making it.
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
I'm not a game developer, just a software dev, but I can't see the positives in sticking with an in house solution when given the opportunity to start fresh. Even less of a reason I'd they intend to cannibalize some of the previous effort.
How?

Anyway my point is there's no indication they're going to keep the same engine. Doesn't mean they are, doesn't mean they aren't. It's a pointless debate.
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,335
What if Retro is actually making a swan song to the DKC Returns Trilogy, with the comeback of the Kremlings and the King K.Rool, with insane production values, level design, visuals, music, etc?

Honestly, I wouldn't mind.
And Kiddy Kong as a returning playable character. Most underrated DKC character.

I feel like there were hints of a 3D DK a while back, but no hints as to who was making it.
 

Doctre81

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,452
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think non Nintendo teams have a history of using Nintendo's engines even if they are funding and supervising.

And Retro could might as well be renamed epd Texas cause they are as Nintendo as the Japanese teams.

It's very possible Namco was using unreal, but I don't think there's any solid evidence to suggest it. Smash isn't using unreal, even if Namco helped making it.
Smash didn't use unreal because its was an updated smash 4 engine. Namco's version of Prime was absolutely using unreal engine 4.
 

karmitt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,818
How?

Anyway my point is there's no indication they're going to keep the same engine. Doesn't mean they are, doesn't mean they aren't. It's a pointless debate.

Actually didn't mean to post any of that top section. It wasn't a complete thought, or proofread.The challenges of dealing with mobile - coming back to resetera to create another response without deleting what was already there. Might edit it out.

Edit:

To answer your question, what I was getting at is that they have less of a reason to stick with an in house solution if they intend of cannibalizing aspects of what was supposedly a UE4 project at BN.

Anyway, I've weighed enough other points to not see the choice quite as straightforward as I originally thought.
 

Plankton2

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,670
So this is an interesting debate and I went ahead and googled it, apparently Tropical Freeze used a brand new engine

From 2014...

Kelbaugh believes there's a lot of technology in Nintendo's current home console. "The Wii U is a powerhouse of technology that we had to transition to. We had brand new tools, brand new engine, brand new everything. There was a lot of unknowns [for us]," he said. "From a technology standpoint we're trying to develop that technology while we're developing a new game at the same time. That was really challenging

https://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/17/how-retro-studios-makes-nintendo-games
 

Lady Bow

Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,277
What if Retro is actually making a swan song to the DKC Returns Trilogy, with the comeback of the Kremlings and the King K.Rool, with insane production values, level design, visuals, music, etc?

Honestly, I wouldn't mind.
Man I hope this is the project they just finished. I'd like it a lot more than a Star Fox racing game.

Yeah I actually remember people saying
mario galaxy looked just like sunshine and prime 3 looked just like mp2. Showed me how ignorant gamers could be lol

Tell me about it lol Galaxy looks amazing at native 1080p.
 

Doctre81

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,452
Do you have any idea what was going wrong with the project? And tying into this, whether Retro Studios and Tanabe would want to keep the assets and code that was produced and use at least the former?

Not sure honestly. I do know based on what I've read Namco singapore was actually proposing gameplay ideas for the project...not just programming duties. So if I had to guess maybe they bet the farm or some particular gameplay mechanics that didn't really pan out for them.
 

Ganondolf

Member
Jan 5, 2018
1,052
I wonder if Nintendo has been struggling using Unreal 4. Yoshi has been delay and now Prime 4 has had issues.

Maybe the teams are used to Nintendo's in house engines and have little experience with Unreal 4.

I also wonder if Nintendo is using Unreal 4 in a few games as part of a deal with Epic to get the engine combatable with Switch.
 

Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
I wonder if Nintendo has been struggling using Unreal 4. Yoshi has been delay and now Prime 4 has had issues.

Maybe the teams are used to Nintendo's in house engines and have little experience with Unreal 4.

I also wonder if Nintendo is using Unreal 4 in a few games as part of a deal with Epic to get the engine combatable with Switch.
I doubt any of those games issues were linked to the engine's choice.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
What non-Nintendo titles? They haven't made a game that wasn't published by Nintendo, using one of Nintendo's IPs, in about a decade.
my point is, by not licensing the engine themselves, they could leave themselves open to not having resources to make anything in the future, relying on someone willing to pay for an engine (that the funder might not even use) on top of the development for the game

I wonder if Nintendo has been struggling using Unreal 4. Yoshi has been delay and now Prime 4 has had issues.

Maybe the teams are used to Nintendo's in house engines and have little experience with Unreal 4.

I also wonder if Nintendo is using Unreal 4 in a few games as part of a deal with Epic to get the engine combatable with Switch.
nintendo isn't making Yoshi. and Nintendo didn't pay Epic to make UE4 compatible. Epic did it of their own volition because it's easy money for them
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
Not sure honestly. I do know based on what I've read Namco singapore was actually proposing gameplay ideas for the project...not just programming duties. So if I had to guess maybe they bet the farm or some particular gameplay mechanics that didn't really pan out for them.
I see. I mean, in a way I would have guessed that, being done in this ad-hoc development scheme, the game's design would be generally uninspired in some way, perhaps the flow of the game or the mechanics not fitting together. I find it hard to believe that it would be something technical or anything like that, or anything related to art/visuals. Which is why I wonder the extent to which Retro could keep existing material.
 

Miscend

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
265
How many games using UE4 run 60fps on low-end hardware?
Namco's Ace Combat 7 is running on UE4. And is sub 60 FPS and sub HD resolution on base consoles. In fact many UE4 games are running at like 720p on Xbox One S. The best performing games this generation are all using in house engines. Games like Doom, Uncharted, GOW, Horizon, Battlefield and RE7.

Retro's games all run at a locked 60fps and are always technically impressive. I can't see any reason for them not to use their own in house technology .
 

jariw

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,283
I wonder if Nintendo has been struggling using Unreal 4. Yoshi has been delay and now Prime 4 has had issues.

Yoshi was redesigned.

The E3 2017 demo of Yoshi was a completely different approach. You needed 2 players to simultaneously ground pound to get to the backside. Now the backside is instead a different set of levels with their own purpose and no swapping during the levels seem to appear.
 

Charamiwa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,053
I wonder if Nintendo has been struggling using Unreal 4. Yoshi has been delay and now Prime 4 has had issues.

Maybe the teams are used to Nintendo's in house engines and have little experience with Unreal 4.

I also wonder if Nintendo is using Unreal 4 in a few games as part of a deal with Epic to get the engine combatable with Switch.
I don't know if they had issues but Yoshi looks amazing and runs at 60fps so they're doing way better than HAL and Kirby at least.

How many games using UE4 run 60fps on low-end hardware?
As far as I know on Switch it's only FighterZ and Yoshi.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,487
6ae98nc902d21.jpg
 

karmitt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,818
I don't know if they had issues but Yoshi looks amazing and runs at 60fps so they're doing way better than HAL and Kirby at least..

Seriously, Yoshi is just beautiful. Didn't know it was 60fps.

The delay is pretty standard for Nintendo - they regularly delay games for short lengths if they need it, UE4 or not. We're just seeing it a lot more because Nintendo was forced to provide a number of early announcements to drum up hype for Switch.
 
my point is, by not licensing the engine themselves, they could leave themselves open to not having resources to make anything in the future, relying on someone willing to pay for an engine (that the funder might not even use) on top of the development for the game
I don't think that Good-Feel has any intentions of leaving Nintendo anytime soon, given that they started working together because the founder of the company asked Nintendo if they could work together on a game together, and since then, they've been happily working with Nintendo's IPs along with assisting some other developers on other projects. Along with Grezzo, they're very much a close-knit studio along the lines of HAL or IntSys.
 

LunaSerena

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,525
I wonder if Nintendo has been struggling using Unreal 4. Yoshi has been delay and now Prime 4 has had issues.

Maybe the teams are used to Nintendo's in house engines and have little experience with Unreal 4.

I also wonder if Nintendo is using Unreal 4 in a few games as part of a deal with Epic to get the engine combatable with Switch.
Prime 4 wasn't being developed in house by Nintendo, rumor says it was Bandai Nampo Singapore and then it was handed over to Bandai Namco Japan, so this isn't a case of Nintendo struggling with UE4.
 

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California
Namco's Ace Combat 7 is running on UE4. And is sub 60 FPS and sub HD resolution on base consoles. In fact many UE4 games are running at like 720p on Xbox One S. The best performing games this generation are all using in house engines. Games like Doom, Uncharted, GOW, Horizon, Battlefield and RE7.

Retro's games all run at a locked 60fps and are always technically impressive. I can't see any reason for them not to use their own in house technology .

Bet they would get the game out a whole lot faster using the Tropical Freeze Engine. I don't care about cutting edge graphics for the Switch I just want 1080p60fps with rock solid gameplay. No 900p, dynamic resolution, or unlocked framerate nonsense.
 

edwardvh

Member
Dec 11, 2018
125
If Star Fox GP is real and looks so spectacular as rumors said some months ago, Retro will use the same engine.

Hell, thematically is almost same.
 

Deleted member 43657

User requested account closure
Banned
May 19, 2018
5,115
I just don't get why they didn't go with Retro in the first place.

We'll never know but I'd like to be a fly on the wall during that initial planning phase.
 

Lucifonz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,132
United Kingdom
Maybe, just maybe, we'll get an MPT announcement this week in a Direct - which would make sense as to why they got out ahead of the announcement to update us on MP4. Get the negative out the way first before the positive.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,497
Spain
It may be surprising or even controversial but Retro Studios has the right to make games other than Metroid Prime
 

Ephonk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,941
Belgium
It's very possible Namco was using unreal, but I don't think there's any solid evidence to suggest it.
Bandai Namco Singapore was heavily recruiting people with Unreal4 experience around the time Metroid Prime 4 started development.

Also writing your own 3D-shooter/action/adventure engine in 2019 takes a LOT of time. It wouldn't be too crazy for Retro to license existing UE4 tech, that everybody in the business knows and that has a very streamlined toolset and import/export plugins.

Fun fact: the Metroid Prime engine uses Unreal 2's code as a foundation or something like it. I remember reading about it a couple years ago.
There were rumours about the engine of Metroid Prime being based on U2, but they weren't true according people who might know it back in the old place. The confusion came from Metroid Prime using a similar data structure.
https://www./threads/metroid-prime-probably-did-not-run-on-unreal-engine-2.457673/page-3

Some quotes from that thread:
There's nothing, absolutely nothing, that indicates UE at any level whatsoever. Add to that the fact no UE version ever was gamecube-compatible, the model format's completely different from UE, and that Epic not credited anywhere (which would constitute a breach of the licensing contract), and I can safely conclude whoever saw UE in there doesn't know the first thing about what he's saying.

I'm pretty sure this is false. When I was in Austin I used to work with some guys who worked on Prime and they never mentioned any use of UE2.

I remember them saying that the programmers gave them very strict limitations on poly counts/texture usage based off room type and they would categorize room types by size: A, B, and C. You can't connect two A rooms together; you needed some B's and C's in between. That's how they maintained such a smooth framerate.

That's all common stuff for console streaming engines while UE2's performance gains largely came from occluders/blocking volumes. Streaming wasn't a big focus for unreal until 3.0 (hence, texture pop in)

Those editor shots also don't look anything like UE2 editor. It looks like a basic design/layout tool you would expect from that gen.

I didn't see this thread until now, but does anyone who believes this realize how dumb such a claim even is? Seriously? Metroid Prime came out in 2002. The only game which used UE2 in 2002 was America's Army, and the only reason it managed to come out so quickly was because it was a glorified recruitment promotion tool for the military instead of a proper game. It was extremely low on content, and also ran like shit.

Think about it for a second. The claim is that somehow Retro Studios licensed UE2 ahead of everyone else, and managed to get a game out in 2002, but instead of it being a proper UE2 game, it is also HEAVILY modified until the point where they no longer had to even carry the logo for the engine.
 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,010
Maybe, just maybe, we'll get an MPT announcement this week in a Direct - which would make sense as to why they got out ahead of the announcement to update us on MP4. Get the negative out the way first before the positive.
Reset the clock.
I really hope MPT to be real. I played the Wii version on Wii U a few years ago and all games have aged really well. I wouldn't expect a great update on visuals, just playing it in HD has to be amazing.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
Tropical Freeze is an gorgeous. It pushes a rock solid 60fps, and every stage is super detailed in asset complexity and scene depth, namely layered backgrounds. Each stage is enormous in length compared to Returns, and almost always jam packs a ton of variety art assets and contexual set pieces an singular stage flow without interrupting with loading screens. It uses an impressive fur shader on Donkey, Diddy, and some enemies. There's a healthy dose of normal maps and ambient occlusions where needed. Nice use of specular surfaces.

It's a technically impressive game, but probably doesn't impress as much due to Retro's chosen art direction, which draws a lot of similar texture styling and geometry proportioning to Returns. Sometimes the lighting can look a bit "flat", but I feel that might have been an aesthetic choice for the sake of visual readability during play (which is exceptional in both games), or a technical hurdle with the current lighting engine and maintaining 60fps.

It's impossible to say what engine Retro would build Prime 4 on, and anything at this point is conjecture from almost nothing. Especially since Nintendo is traditionally not very transparent about their engines, as many are internal and evolve between titles.

That being said I'd prefer they didn't use Unreal Engine 4. It's a great engine but I'm yet to see a game on Switch that doesn't suffer from blurriness from the engine, and I refuse to believe it's as nicely optimised for the hardware as some of Nintendo's own internal work. It's a good middleware that produces very fast results of modern effects, so Retro may go there, but who knows.

It'll be interesting if Star Fox GP (or whatever they're work on) comes out, and how it looks.
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,126
I just hope Retro continue opting for advanced geometry over texture-obsessing, and that we can still marvel at the cracks in the walls and the details in the floor when we enter Prime 4, like we did in Prime.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,017
I don't know if this has already been covered in the thread but didn't the same thing pretty much happen with MP? I believe that Retro were already well into development but then Miyamoto came on board and basically scrapped everything they'd done?
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
I don't know if this has already been covered in the thread but didn't the same thing pretty much happen with MP? I believe that Retro were already well into development but then Miyamoto came on board and basically scrapped everything they'd done?
Well we don't know exactly how things went down this time. Retro's game could be done and they wanted to do Metroid Prime 4 now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
Tropical Freeze is an gorgeous. It pushes a rock solid 60fps, and every stage is super detailed in asset complexity and scene depth, namely layered backgrounds. Each stage is enormous in length compared to Returns, and almost always jam packs a ton of variety art assets and contexual set pieces an singular stage flow without interrupting with loading screens. It uses an impressive fur shader on Donkey, Diddy, and some enemies. There's a healthy dose of normal maps and ambient occlusions where needed. Nice use of specular surfaces.

It's a technically impressive game, but probably doesn't impress as much due to Retro's chosen art direction, which draws a lot of similar texture styling and geometry proportioning to Returns. Sometimes the lighting can look a bit "flat", but I feel that might have been an aesthetic choice for the sake of visual readability during play (which is exceptional in both games), or a technical hurdle with the current lighting engine and maintaining 60fps.

It's impossible to say what engine Retro would build Prime 4 on, and anything at this point is conjecture from almost nothing. Especially since Nintendo is traditionally not very transparent about their engines, as many are internal and evolve between titles.

That being said I'd prefer they didn't use Unreal Engine 4. It's a great engine but I'm yet to see a game on Switch that doesn't suffer from blurriness from the engine, and I refuse to believe it's as nicely optimised for the hardware as some of Nintendo's own internal work. It's a good middleware that produces very fast results of modern effects, so Retro may go there, but who knows.

It'll be interesting if Star Fox GP (or whatever they're work on) comes out, and how it looks.
Thank you. The Tropical Freeze engine can handle all sorts of materials and lighting, and there are lots of examples of these techniques at play in the game (Like beautifully shaded water in some levels, caves with excellent lighting and ambient occlusion, more open levels with some cool shading and material work, etc. but as you say, many of the materials in the game lack specularity to make them more readable, and the lighting is often flat for the same reason.
I have no doubt that, had they made a 3D game with the same tech, they would have afforded a lot more specularity in the materials and higher contrast in lighting and so forth. The game they will soon announce (Be it Starfox or not) will surely look amazing.

I really hope it's on Thursday the 31st.
 
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