Wish the Nintendo cable would detect S-video. That would make it perfect for N64 and NTSC Gamecube in absence of RGB mods or component cables. The composite N64 screens looked really bad.
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Retro AV Thread |OT| RGB, CRTs, Upscalers, and More
- Thread starter ShinJohnpv
- Start date
Wish the Nintendo cable would detect S-video. That would make it perfect for N64 and NTSC Gamecube in absence of RGB mods or component cables. The composite N64 screens looked really bad.
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As of right now I have never heard of a 4K TV that does this. TV manufacturers design their upscalers in their sets for live action, and that means a softer upscale. It would be nice for a game mode on a 4K set to do an upscale like this but as far as I know none of them do. I don't think that will ever happen either, retro gaming is just not a large enough market for tv manufacturers to put in seperate scalers in their tvs for us. Which is why people want a 4K upscaler. Even up scaling 1080p on a 4K set, its only a 2x integer scale, but I would invest in a 4k upscaler because it would definitely be sharper that what most tvs do with 1080p.
Well said, all around. That's why I'm hoping for a 4k upscaler in the near future, too. I love my Framemeister, but when outputting 720p (better than 1080p for scanlines), my TV tries to get too clever with its upscaling and messes things up.
I got my mClassic today, can't wait to try it with my GameCube + GCHD.
Related, what's currently the best bang-for-buck solution for getting good picture out of a PlayStation 2? Ideally HDMI, since my TV doesn't support component. But I don't want to spend $350 on a Framemeister.
Related, what's currently the best bang-for-buck solution for getting good picture out of a PlayStation 2? Ideally HDMI, since my TV doesn't support component. But I don't want to spend $350 on a Framemeister.
The OSSC is cheaper than a Framemeister. There is also the Retrotink 2X, which accepts Component, S-Video and line doubles to 480p. I think the Retrotink has a pass trough mode for native 480p.
There is also this cable, that integrates the Retrotink into an HDMI cable.
100% this, every other solution for the PS2 (other than the upcoming PS2 HDMI mod) is absolute rubbish and a waste of your money.
Thanks so much! RAD2X sounds really interesting.
EDIT: Damn this video is really dragging the Pound cables through the mud. lmao
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The thing about having integers from source to display is more about maintaining pixel aspect. It doesn't mean the kind of scaling the TV uses changes. Interpolation type scaling inherently tries to mitigate jagged edges and that's what TVs use. The "non fancy" process that would maintain sharpness (and jagged edges) is nearest neighbor scaling and I (like shin) don't know of any TVs that do that. I heard Nvidia just started putting that option in video cards though.
I can't really say it's "perfect" to mean "better" though because it really gets complicated with games that have all kinds of varying resolutions and aspect ratios that don't always align with each other.
I discovered something interesting about the enhancements the PS3 offers for PS2 titles on the BC units. It's common knowledge that when engaging the Progressive Scan option in supported games results in the PS3 disabling its scaling and just outputting that native Progressive Scan signal. But as I've been using the BC PS3 for my PS2 library for the last several months I've noticed that Progressive Scan games looking really different from the rest of the library, in not necessarily a good way (to me, anyways). I checked my OSSC settings, I tried passthrough, I tried straight via HDMI from the PS3, in all instances Progressive Scan enabled games appeared really aliased against non-Progressive Scan games. I tried to brush it off simply as the increase in resolution and sharpness offered by Progressive Scan over interlaced titles, but no... interlaced titles, whether deinterlaced by the OSSC or the PS3, had a smoother look to them to me that I felt went beyond that.
So I was sitting around thinking about it, and it dawned on me: The Smoothing function. PS/PS2 Smoothing option on BC PS3s just blurs PS1 games, but on PS2 titles it actually applies a solid anti-aliasing solution. I always have this setting on (for 3D games at least), as demonstrated by My Life in Gaming, it provides great edge coverage with no sacrifices to the sharpness of the picture. So I got to thinking "What if the PS3 disables this function on Progressive Scan games too, just like the Upscaling?" I have never heard anyone mention this anywhere over the years, and the Smoothing setting remains a selectable option in the PS menu when running games in Progressive Scan, unlike the Upscaling option, so I didn't even think this would be the case. But sure enough, I got close to the screen and toggled Smoothing on and off in various games running in their Progressive Scan modes and found absolutely no visual difference between On and Off. I re-ran the same games but instead not engaging their Progressive Scan mode and toggled Smoothing On and Off again, and big difference!
So yeah, just like Upscaling, the PS3 doesn't offer Smoothing for Progressive Scan titles, and pretty much just turns into an actual PS2 when you run games in those modes. As such, I'm currently deciding if I want the blurrier but smoother presentation by just letting those titles run in 480i and letting the PS3 do its thing, or the crisper yet jaggied one of actually using the Progressive Scan feature in select games. Ultimately, at least there aren't many games still stuck on the PS2 to make this decision with.
Here's some comparisons.
Really wish the Smoothing worked on Progressive Scan titles, the picture would be so great.
I really am leaning towards the 480i on the PS3 look, and just running my PS3 via HDMI at 1080p instead of component to my OSSC at 960p. My Life in Gaming said the PS3's deinterlacing and Upscaling was pretty much on par with the Framemeister and I certainly can't perceive the lag increase. Shame I gotta worry about that dreaded YLoD tho.
So I was sitting around thinking about it, and it dawned on me: The Smoothing function. PS/PS2 Smoothing option on BC PS3s just blurs PS1 games, but on PS2 titles it actually applies a solid anti-aliasing solution. I always have this setting on (for 3D games at least), as demonstrated by My Life in Gaming, it provides great edge coverage with no sacrifices to the sharpness of the picture. So I got to thinking "What if the PS3 disables this function on Progressive Scan games too, just like the Upscaling?" I have never heard anyone mention this anywhere over the years, and the Smoothing setting remains a selectable option in the PS menu when running games in Progressive Scan, unlike the Upscaling option, so I didn't even think this would be the case. But sure enough, I got close to the screen and toggled Smoothing on and off in various games running in their Progressive Scan modes and found absolutely no visual difference between On and Off. I re-ran the same games but instead not engaging their Progressive Scan mode and toggled Smoothing On and Off again, and big difference!
So yeah, just like Upscaling, the PS3 doesn't offer Smoothing for Progressive Scan titles, and pretty much just turns into an actual PS2 when you run games in those modes. As such, I'm currently deciding if I want the blurrier but smoother presentation by just letting those titles run in 480i and letting the PS3 do its thing, or the crisper yet jaggied one of actually using the Progressive Scan feature in select games. Ultimately, at least there aren't many games still stuck on the PS2 to make this decision with.
Here's some comparisons.
480i+PS3's smoothing, deinterlacing and upscaling:
480p:
480p:
Really wish the Smoothing worked on Progressive Scan titles, the picture would be so great.
I really am leaning towards the 480i on the PS3 look, and just running my PS3 via HDMI at 1080p instead of component to my OSSC at 960p. My Life in Gaming said the PS3's deinterlacing and Upscaling was pretty much on par with the Framemeister and I certainly can't perceive the lag increase. Shame I gotta worry about that dreaded YLoD tho.
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I discovered something interesting about the enhancements the PS3 offers for PS2 titles on the BC units. It's common knowledge that when engaging the Progressive Scan option in supported games results in the PS3 disabling its scaling and just outputting that native Progressive Scan signal. But as I've been using the BC PS3 for my PS2 library for the last several months I've noticed that Progressive Scan games looking really different from the rest of the library, in not necessarily a good way (to me, anyways). I checked my OSSC settings, I tried passthrough, I tried straight via HDMI from the PS3, in all instances Progressive Scan enabled games appeared really aliased against non-Progressive Scan games. I tried to brush it off simply as the increase in resolution and sharpness offered by Progressive Scan over interlaced titles, but no... interlaced titles, whether deinterlaced by the OSSC or the PS3, had a smoother look to them to me that I felt when beyond that.
So I was sitting around thinking about it, and it dawned on me: The Smoothing function. PS/PS2 Smoothing option on BC PS3s just blurs PS1 games, but on PS2 titles it actually applies a solid anti-aliasing solution. I always have this setting on (for 3D games at least), as demonstrated by My Life in Gaming, it provides great edge coverage with no sacrifices to the sharpness of the picture. So I got to thinking "What if the PS3 disables this function on Progressive Scan games too, just like the Upscaling?" I have never heard anyone mention this anywhere over the years, and the Smoothing setting remains a selectable option in the PS menu when running games in Progressive Scan, unlike the Upscaling option, so I didn't even think this would be the case. But sure enough, I got close to the screen and toggled Smoothing on and off in various games running in their Progressive Scan modes and found absolutely no visual difference between On and Off. I re-ran the same games but instead not engaging their Progressive Scan mode and toggled Smoothing On and Off again, and big difference!
So yeah, just like Upscaling, the PS3 doesn't offer Smoothing for Progressive Scan titles, and pretty much just turns into an actual PS2 when you run games in those modes. As such, I'm currently deciding if I want the blurrier but smoother presentation by just letting those titles run in 480i and letting the PS3 do its thing, or the crisper yet jaggied one of actually using the Progressive Scan feature in select games. Ultimately, at least there aren't many games still stuck on the PS2 to make this decision with.
Here's some comparisons.
480i+PS3's smoothing and upscaling:
480p:
The PS2 really was a 480i machine, a lot of 480p games output at a lower colour depth and reduced width (512x448) because of the added hardware strain of full-frame rendering. There's also a bunch of IQ solutions that the hardware has that only work on the dual frame-buffer output such as line blending and the hardware level AA that the GS has.
So basically there's less to work with on a 480p image on the PS2.
Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna worry about it and just let the PS3 do its thing on the small selection of Progressive Scan titles instead of engaging that option. There really is only a handful of those titles I'm interested still stuck on the PS2 anyways.
I gave up trying to get great digital output from the PS2 and went back to a CRT. It looks incredible on my RGB modded Trinitron.
That said it will be interesting to see how the PS2 HDMI board works out, I imagine there will be some level of de-interlacing available.
I'm wrong. Combing = 2 field deinterlacing that is very quick. It was on the Ultra HDMI mod. It could look less stable than PS3 and Framemeister, but also maybe sharper.
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PS2 does look magical on an RGB monitor.
I will certainly buy the PS2 HDMI project when it releases - how likely is is that some sort of de-interlacing feature will be implemented?
I don't know much about the project itself, unfortunately.
I will certainly buy the PS2 HDMI project when it releases - how likely is is that some sort of de-interlacing feature will be implemented?
I don't know much about the project itself, unfortunately.
I'm wrong. Combing = 2 field deinterlacing that is very quick. It was on the Ultra HDMI mod. It could look less stable than PS3 and Framemeister, but also maybe sharper.
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Why? The full BC units have the PS2 hardware inside, has an upscaler and deinterlacer that rivals that of the Franemeister, and has a quality post-processing anti-aliasing. Any introduced lag certainly doesn't seem to be a problem. This is all coming from My Life in Gaming's PS2 video. On top of that you get other benefits of the PS3; A solid wireless controller, practically unlimited memory cards, HDMI output. A BC PS3 very much seem to be the definitive way to play the PS2 library, it's just they're not the most reliable systems in terms of longevity.
Dang it.
Well, try to upkeep as I might, my CRT won't last forever, so I've really been looking for good solutions for it - as have most of us in this thread recently.
How much lag is normally inherent with a frame buffer?
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I believe for proper deinterlacing with a frame buffer you're looking at around a frame to a frame and a half of lag.
Disregard what I said. I had a brain fart. All too common for me. Combing is actually a sign that they actually are using a more advanced deinterlacing option than bob deinterlacing. They are combining 2 fields, just not adapting for motion - which is what creates combing. It's faster than motion adapting, crisper than bob deinterlacing, but has the aforementioned combing artifacts.
Yeah, it depends, but you at least gotta stash 2 fields (one frame) in memory to deinterlace. To compesate for motion, it takes more time
Nothing can really be done about the initial frame. For more advanced processing for a smoother picture, the rest comes down to the actual processing speed of aligning fields, detecting motion, and removing artifacts.
Either way, I'm back to being interested in this HDMI solution. lol
I believe this fast 2 field process was also a feature on the Ultra HDMI for the N64
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Ditto, sounds exactly like the thing I was after, only remaining question for me is the resolution switching thing, I know they say its fast, but if it still triggers the TV into a resolution switch I guess there will still be a delay based on the TV.
Yeah, I ordered one, too, and that's what I'm most curious about.
Very tempted by the Saturn RAD2X cable if it does indeed switch resolutions quicker than the OSSC.
Interesting... since he's basically reconfiguring the RetroTink components to make these cables, he has to feed the chip a compressed color space by including an RGB to component x-coder. So what you get is actually digital component video through HDMI and not actual RGB. Basically, even though you feed it RGB it'll look on par with any other system connected to a RetroTink vía component - all things considered.
Mildly annoyed that I forgot about the sync cable when I ordered the BNC to RCA adapters. I'm just one short from finally having my setup done.
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Good PSA:
Spend your money well, folks. There's plenty of good quality options now.
Spend your money well, folks. There's plenty of good quality options now.
RAD2X is internally working in component color space. It converts RGB to component before digitizing.
Snagged a 22" widescreen CRT for a tenner, nice upgrade over the 14" one I had (which I hated using due to the size so didnt get much use, did I really use this when I was a kid?). People werent joking about the response times on these things. I remember when my brother got a 17" LCD monitor for his PC, and while it looked nice, that smear stuck out. Obviously its better now, but seeing a CRT again you do think what we lost in the transition to LCD.
It also reminded me about the scan lines everyone seems to love, as a kid, I dont remember scan lines at all, and having both of these CRT's, I still cant see any scan lines, so why are some people obsessed with them? Or was it because I always used cheaper/smaller CRT's?
The PS2 menu screen looks so damn sharp :o
It also reminded me about the scan lines everyone seems to love, as a kid, I dont remember scan lines at all, and having both of these CRT's, I still cant see any scan lines, so why are some people obsessed with them? Or was it because I always used cheaper/smaller CRT's?
The PS2 menu screen looks so damn sharp :o
You probably don't see scanlines on the wide CRT because it's also mishandling 240p like most modern TVs. It a reason a lot of people generally avoid them for retro gaming
I'm from the UK too and I don't remember scanlines as horizontal black lines either.
The mednafen emulator's "goat shader" is what I remember my games looking like.
I'm from the UK too and I don't remember scanlines as horizontal black lines either.
The mednafen emulator's "goat shader" is what I remember my games looking like.
Yup, that looks more like my experience.
Waited months for a CRT to come up somewhere reasonably close, and 2 show up within 2 weeks. This time a 28" 4:3 Toshiba, and it looks even better than the widescreen one I got. Again for a tenner. I think il stop now ...... this size is perfect (if a bit ludicrous).
High TVL BVM stuff and also PVM stuff is so far away from what anything ever looked like, on a dev's desk or at home back in the day, it's absurd.
These monitors were designed for very sharp 480i lines, not for a massive amount of black space because 240p lines and over half the image being black space.
Signed, an owner of fine pitch high TVL broadcast monitors.
These monitors were designed for very sharp 480i lines, not for a massive amount of black space because 240p lines and over half the image being black space.
Signed, an owner of fine pitch high TVL broadcast monitors.
i don't think that's an issue in a normal gaming environment unless you love to sit close to your screen for some reason, like a normal pc desktop setup. All i see are great screens, i don't focus on the lines while i play, they will just blend in.
Probably a stupid question, but these old CRT's, do you guys leave them on standby, or turn them off at the mains?
Just saw a post by marqs over on the shmups forums that the next OSSC firmware is coming soon and it'll introduce an on-screen display! I didn't know that was possible on the OSSC.
With a PAL television you would see scanlines only with very big CRT. "thick scanlines" are a NTSC thing.I'm from the UK too and I don't remember scanlines as horizontal black lines either.
The mednafen emulator's "goat shader" is what I remember my games looking like.
I'm in the UK and about to order an OSSC. I have a few questions!
- Does the HDMI output include audio out? I recall this being a problem with OSSC in the past and was something that put me off.
- Does OSSC handle audio pass through from component's L+R audio?
- how does it cope with the 480p games on PS2 and GC?
- I have the official component cable for NTSC Gamecube, and I have a second one which was professionally modded for RGB output. Which is better? I expect the RGB is limited to 480i.
- how does it cope with PAL signals? I have lots of PAL stuff on PS2.
- can I keep component and SCART plugged in and switch via remote?
- Does the HDMI output include audio out? I recall this being a problem with OSSC in the past and was something that put me off.
- Does OSSC handle audio pass through from component's L+R audio?
- how does it cope with the 480p games on PS2 and GC?
- I have the official component cable for NTSC Gamecube, and I have a second one which was professionally modded for RGB output. Which is better? I expect the RGB is limited to 480i.
- how does it cope with PAL signals? I have lots of PAL stuff on PS2.
- can I keep component and SCART plugged in and switch via remote?
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Yes, this was sorted when they changed the output port from dvi to hdmi
Its got a 3.5mm stereo input for audio, so you'll need an adapter/cable other than that it works great.
Its good, although its not as impressive as its 240p handling.
I'll leave this to someone else, I've only used rgb scart for gamecube.
- RGB is not native inside the GC. It will make exactly 0% improvement over component.
- PAL should be fine it has settings for it.
- Yes
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Note that I believe PAL GC's are limited to 560i (that is the correct 480i equivalent right) even with the component cables. Holding down B won't get you 480p mode like on NTSC units but get you 60hz mode but still interlaced. If you're looking for 480p from the GC make sure you have an NTSC gamecube.
I believe that is still the case and maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
That's good to know! I have a region modded Spice JP Gamecube from launch. I don't own any PAL GC stuff.
Is this also true of the PAL Wii when playing Gamecube games?
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