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FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,863
Metro Detroit
My employer is starting to roll something like it out too. also a 15% discount, however vesting over 3 years.
The only thing that is giving me pause is the fact that it will require a new investment account abroad because it's all handled by a bank in HQ's country... so it's not exactly simplifying my tax life...
 
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TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
We have something vaguely similar. Every 6 month period you can sign up to have up to 10% of your pay set aside. At the end of the six months, shares of our stock are purchased at a 15% discount from the stock price at either the beginning or end of the 6 month period, whichever is lower. And you can sell right away if you want.

So at worst you're getting a 15% profit. Although of course the discount is taxed as a taxable benefit and I have the same thing where I have to get the shares out of the US into Canada which is a bit annoying.
 

feline fury

Member
Dec 8, 2017
1,538
This is helpful, thank you! Our household income is ~$330,000. At this rate we are doing the following annually:
  • 401K Max - $19,500 + 19,500 = $39,000
  • 401K Employee Match (6% each) - $1,170 + $1,170 = $2,340
  • Backdoor Roth - $6,000 + $6,000 = $12,000
  • Employee Stock Purchase Plan (15% Discount) - $20,000 (which I hold for a year and then resell and convert into index funds)
  • Dollar Average Automated Index Fund Purchase - $1,600 / month = $19,200
  • Increase to Savings Account - $1,500 / month = $18,000 (I know this is probably not ideal but I like having cash cushion, I'll probably stop in ~12 months)
  • Total = $110,540 / year or ~33% of pre-tax income
Putting another ~$37,000 into Mega Roth (as only I am eligible for it, my wife is not I believe?) would probably take a hit to our standard of living at this point (wouldn't crush us or anything but we still like to have a decent life). Would it be advantageous to mix shift what I'm doing above to prioritize Mega Roth (the savings is a no brainer I'm sure but curious on ideal strategy)?
That's a very good savings rate!

It comes down how much you value the tax free growth that more Roth dollars would bring vs the flexibility of withdrawals a non-IRA would give you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,118
So following up on my post from a couple of months ago (FIL passed, have to figure out what to do with the inheritance,) my wife and I are meeting with his old Wells Fargo financial guy tomorrow. Of course he'd "love to continue doing business with us" like he did her dad, even though he's an hour and a half away from us.

From what I can tell, Wells Fargo gets pretty meh reviews for wealth management and the guy we're meeting tomorrow isn't a fiduciary. The amount we're getting would be considered "life-changing" if we were bad at money, but while we're idiots when it comes to investing, we do alright with our money so we're considering this to be more "retirement accelerating."

I'm suggesting to my wife that we just keep things simple and use this money to max out our Roths and my 401(k) and stick the rest in low cost index funds (at one of Vanguard/Schwab/Fidelity following r/personalfinance's advice) and in theory she agrees, but I'm worried when we get in the boiler room with this guy, we'll wilt and sign whatever he puts in front of us.

I guess I'm really wondering, do we even need a "financial guy"? At what stage of wealth do you need one? $500k, $1m, $5m? And if I'm on the right track with low cost funds, which ones do we get and where do you put them (beyond the aforementioned Roths/401ks,) just a brokerage account,. trust, etc...?

Oh, and a bonus, I just got offered a new job with a 40+% raise. Woo!
 

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
6,814
Congrats! New jobs can be so revitalizing, hope it works well for you.

I don't think you need a financial person until you start really needing to make shorter term (<10y) planning decisions if you're doing the conventional wisdom unless you start getting above $2-3M. Then it starts being more complicated and into case by cases basis with lots of personal customizations, where just following modern conventional wisdom will generally have a good outcome but not necessarily the outcome that's best for your circumstances.

What I do recommend if you don't have one already is getting an umbrella insurance policy on top of your homeowners/auto and (somewhat morbid here) get your own estate planning sorted out. Especially the former if you're overall household income is going up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,118
Thanks, I'm looking forward to a fully fresh start at a company that has gone out of it's way to recruit me (they did the initial contact, exceeded my salary floor, started me off on 3 weeks PTO like I asked, upped the new title based on experience, etc...)

We're old as shit, so we are looking at around a 10yr horizon, but nowhere near $2-3m (FIL was, but obviously we're only getting a fraction of that.) We do have our wills written up, but I'm guessing we'll need to update them once the incoming money stabilizes a little.

Thanks for the recommendation on the umbrella policy, I was trying to research if a trust would give that kind of protection, but an umbrella policy seems much more straightforward.
 

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,589
Of course the guy would love to continue working with you. If you take the FIL's money and leave, he loses money. I see red flags simply because he's a Wells Fargo financial advisor who isn't a fiduciary. I would automatically assume he's going to try to dump all the money in funds that he gets a big commission on regardless of what it earns you. Maybe he's better than that, but I wouldn't assume so.

Ask questions. Know the expenses. Know where he's earning money on this. If you aren't comfortable with how he answers those kinds of questions, bail out. It's your money, you can always choose to just invest in low cost Vanguard or Fidelity funds, so the pressure is on him.
 
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TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
Get out as fast as you can. For me a financial planner is if you're not in the greatest financial shape and looking to get advice on how to get by with enough to survive in retirement. They'll help you with things like moving around money in the proper fashion to maximize your OAS/GIS.

You can easily stick with the standard of loading up retirement accounts and using basic index funds well into the millions. The other end is wealth management where you really have to think about tax implications of your money being inherited, protecting estate assets, and that kind of thing.

For somebody who's just going with the standard I cannot see any benefit to paying massive percentages to these parasites.
 

cakefoo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,407
Roth IRA question/assumption: if I contribute $6K a year, and 5 years down the line, there's an emergency and I need to withdraw $30K of my contributions, I can't just contribute $30K that year to return the account to its former self, right? I still have to abide by the $6K/year contribution limit?
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
I have a question about the RSU's. When they vest, they go to my Individual account. The question is, what do people normally do with stocks once they vest? Do you keep it in your individual account as retirement, or do you withdraw it, knowing that withdrawing the balance means you have to pay tax on it?
 

Marz

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,780
Roth IRA question/assumption: if I contribute $6K a year, and 5 years down the line, there's an emergency and I need to withdraw $30K of my contributions, I can't just contribute $30K that year to return the account to its former self, right? I still have to abide by the $6K/year contribution limit?

Once those years are gone they're gone for good unfortunately
 
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TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
I have a question about the RSU's. When they vest, they go to my Individual account. The question is, what do people normally do with stocks once they vest? Do you keep it in your individual account as retirement, or do you withdraw it, knowing that withdrawing the balance means you have to pay tax on it?

Maybe it works differently for you, but mine are taxed as soon as they vest. Like next year I will have 70 shares vest but I'll probably only receive something like 45 shares because the rest are gone to tax before I even see them. I just turn them into cash right away anyway because our shares only trade on the US markets and I need Canadian dollars.

I guess yours go directly into a retirement account. Personally I would sell them, keep the proceeds in the retirement account, and buy more shares of your favoured index fund. I don't generally hold any individual company stock.
 

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,588
My AMD & Nvidia holdings won't stop. I'm feeling like I need to sell them and throw it into VTSAX. My Nvidia is up 300%.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,863
Metro Detroit
My AMD & Nvidia holdings won't stop. I'm feeling like I need to sell them and throw it into VTSAX. My Nvidia is up 300%.
How much of your overall portfolio is it?
I have a very solid foundation of ETFs and have now also started buying individual stock occasionally to just hold, maybe 5% of my total, so I am not overly concerned... E.g. NVDA, which as you point out has been doing numbers...
 

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,588
How much of your overall portfolio is it?
I have a very solid foundation of ETFs and have now also started buying individual stock occasionally to just hold, maybe 5% of my total, so I am not overly concerned... E.g. NVDA, which as you point out has been doing numbers...

Just my Vanguard account it's like 20%, but across all it's more like 5-10%. My IRA is with TD.
 
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TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
If your portfolio is already solid with index funds I see no issue with taking shots on individual stocks. Can be a big win, or you're losing an amount that you were okay with.
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,163
Question, does Fidelity have an equivalent index funds to the total stock market ones in vanguard? I am searching around, but gonna be honest, I am somewhat overwhelmed with choices. There are like 5 different things that says total index fund.

Edit: I think I got it. I was overthinking it.
 
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feline fury

Member
Dec 8, 2017
1,538
Speaking of Fidelity, is there a catch to FNILX and its zero expense ratio? Do you have to have an account with Fidelity to buy it? Looking for VIGAX alternatives and that looks like a similar fund with zero fees.

And now that the end of mega backdoor Roth rollovers is a very real possibility, I'm in a small dilemma. My employer only allows the rollover twice per calendar year and I've been doing them in Jan + July every year. Which means I have a small sum of money stuck in the account. Looking over the plan policies, I may be subject to a 10% withdrawal penalty if I take the money out before age 59.5 unless I switch employers. Is it worth braving the atrocious wait times to call Vanguard to see if they can give me an extra rollover due to pending legislation?
 

Deleted member 5876

Big Seller
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,559
Speaking of Fidelity, is there a catch to FNILX and its zero expense ratio? Do you have to have an account with Fidelity to buy it? Looking for VIGAX alternatives and that looks like a similar fund with zero fees.

And now that the end of mega backdoor Roth rollovers is a very real possibility, I'm in a small dilemma. My employer only allows the rollover twice per calendar year and I've been doing them in Jan + July every year. Which means I have a small sum of money stuck in the account. Looking over the plan policies, I may be subject to a 10% withdrawal penalty if I take the money out before age 59.5 unless I switch employers. Is it worth braving the atrocious wait times to call Vanguard to see if they can give me an extra rollover due to pending legislation?

The Zero funds can only be purchased via Fidelity
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,400
Speaking of Fidelity, is there a catch to FNILX and its zero expense ratio?

The "catch" to the zero expense ratio funds is that they try to approximate the performance of the corresponding index by holding stocks for a smaller number of companies that they think are representative of the overall index. The smaller number of companies means they need to do fewer transactions, which is part of what keeps the expense of running the fund down.

That's not completely unusual. Total stock funds don't literally hold stocks for every public company. However, these zero expense funds tend to hold a relatively smaller number than other funds tracking the same index. This can lead to greater "tracking error", where the fund's performance differs from that of the index it is trying to track, and they technically give you less diversification than you would have with another fund.

Whether this should actually matter to you is up for debate. You still get pretty good diversification with these funds, but you are sacrificing some diversification for those lower fees.
 

feline fury

Member
Dec 8, 2017
1,538
The Zero funds can only be purchased via Fidelity
Gotcha, something to consider if I decide to change brokerages.

The "catch" to the zero expense ratio funds is that they try to approximate the performance of the corresponding index by holding stocks for a smaller number of companies that they think are representative of the overall index. The smaller number of companies means they need to do fewer transactions, which is part of what keeps the expense of running the fund down.

That's not completely unusual. Total stock funds don't literally hold stocks for every public company. However, these zero expense funds tend to hold a relatively smaller number than other funds tracking the same index. This can lead to greater "tracking error", where the fund's performance differs from that of the index it is trying to track, and they technically give you less diversification than you would have with another fund.

Whether this should actually matter to you is up for debate. You still get pretty good diversification with these funds, but you are sacrificing some diversification for those lower fees.
Thanks, I'll look into how well it tracks the indices vs other similar funds.
 

Jeffapp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,246
So I just left my job and I had a simple IRA with them. I'm I supposed to do anything with this?
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,895
Any advice here?

My new employer has an employee stock purchase plan (ESPP) which from my understanding is always worth it if they offer a discount on shares. However, my employer does not offer a discount, but does match 33.33% after 1 year of holding. I can contribute up to 15% of after tax.

Would it be worth it to contribute? I already contribute 20% to my retirement btw.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,941
Any advice here?

My new employer has an employee stock purchase plan (ESPP) which from my understanding is always worth it if they offer a discount on shares. However, my employer does not offer a discount, but does match 33.33% after 1 year of holding. I can contribute up to 15% of after tax.

Would it be worth it to contribute? I already contribute 20% to my retirement btw.
If I'm understanding that right, they give you 1/3rd more shares after a year, so unless the stock has dropped by over 33% in the last year you'll be ahead? Presumably your purchase will be classed as long term gains (if the stock is up...) after a year, but the matching shares won't be?

Seems like a win, unless you think the company is headed towards bankruptcy. You can always sell those shares immediately after a year, to get the long term gains and avoid being too overweight in your employers stock. Then put that money into a Roth if you can, or just a regular account and buy a market index or whatever.
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,895
If I'm understanding that right, they give you 1/3rd more shares after a year, so unless the stock has dropped by over 33% in the last year you'll be ahead? Presumably your purchase will be classed as long term gains (if the stock is up...) after a year, but the matching shares won't be?

Seems like a win, unless you think the company is headed towards bankruptcy. You can always sell those shares immediately after a year, to get the long term gains and avoid being too overweight in your employers stock. Then put that money into a Roth if you can, or just a regular account and buy a market index or whatever.

Thanks. Yeah my understanding is that even if it's not a traditional discount, the match still puts me ahead I believe.
 

HammerOfThor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,860
Hey ya'll, starting a new job and trying to figure out if I should do a Roth or traditional. My company matches 50% of the first 6% of my salary, so I'm just doing 6% to get the match for now.

It's my understanding that for Roth, it's after-tax, so I just pay taxes on my contribution, but growth and company match will be tax-free once I retire. Does this mean that the contributions are taken out once all is said and done "right before I get my money"? Kinda like if I were to just put it into a savings account myself?

Also, do ya'll do your own portfolio or use one of those targeted pre-built ones?
 
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Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,729
Hey ya'll, starting a new job and trying to figure out if I should do a Roth or traditional. My company matches 50% of the first 6% of my salary, so I'm just doing 6% to get the match for now.

It's my understanding that for Roth, it's after-tax, so I just pay taxes on my contribution, but growth and company match will be tax-free once I retire. Does this mean that the contributions are taken out once all is said and done "right before I get my money"? Kinda like if I were to just put it into a savings account myself?

Also, do ya'll do your own portfolio or use one of those targeted pre-built ones?

A) Not sure what you mean by contributions getting taken out - you get to keep the contributions and whatever has accumulated, tax-free. The money you see is all yours.

B) I use a targeted one for ease of use and peace of mind. No fiddling, no readjustments, just a single fund I contribute to each month and can forget about.
 

HammerOfThor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,860
A) Not sure what you mean by contributions getting taken out - you get to keep the contributions and whatever has accumulated, tax-free. The money you see is all yours.
I mean when it gets taken out of my salary. Tax-wise, its the equivalent of my getting the money and putting it into my own savings? Theres not some other tax that goes on it, right?
 

Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,729
I mean when it gets taken out of my salary. Tax-wise, its the equivalent of my getting the money and putting it into my own savings? Theres not some other tax that goes on it, right?

Oh, then yes, correct! You've already paid income tax on it when it gets put into your Roth. If your tax bracket changes you might have to pay some extra or get some back depending on how good the IRS estimate was, but yes. It's all after-tax money in there.
 

mhayes86

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,246
Maryland
I'm looking for investment suggestions (US) unless it's a better idea to reach out to an accountant/financial advisor for guidance.

My previous home is under contract and is scheduled for settlement next week. I'm making a pretty good profit off of it considering I only lived in it for four years. I could pay off my student loans, and could even pay for my daughter's college, but she's only 6 months old so with another 18 years until that possibility, my wife and I want to invest it.

Some quick background:
-I have a 401k with company match that's already maxed.
-We have a 529 account opened for our daughter for education investing (my wife's dad also made an investment account for her education, but no idea of the balance).
-My wife has never had a 401k or any other retirement account from a job, and is currently a stay at home mother. She opened a Roth IRA last year which I have been contributing to for her.
-We have an emergency fund in savings.
-The only debt we have are my student loans ($300/mo), my car payment ($360/mo), and the mortgage.

Here's where we're at:
-My wife is questioning if the IRA is worth it since she's seen hardly any growth and wants to know if there's a better investment option for her. If I recall, she has a targeted Roth IRA through Vanguard. Should she just stick with the IRA since she has no other retirement investment, or is there another option? If sticking with the IRA, should we go ahead and max out the $6k annual contribution?
-Should I pay off my student loans, or see about refinancing for a lower interest rate and payment, and invest the extra money?
-Recast our mortgage loan and dump as much as possible into our current house (we have a 10 year plan here)

At the moment, I'm leaning towards paying off my student loans, maxing out my wife's IRA annual contribution, put some into my daughter's 529, and then put the rest into ETFs, index funds, and the sort. If this is a good route, any suggestions on which ones to consider?
 

Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,729
my workplace just started an employee stock discount program and revealed the details, and it's a 15% discount with NO vesting period. Up to 15% of your annual salary. As soon as it's bought, it's yours.

... that just sounds like free money to me?
 

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,589
my workplace just started an employee stock discount program and revealed the details, and it's a 15% discount with NO vesting period. Up to 15% of your annual salary. As soon as it's bought, it's yours.

... that just sounds like free money to me?
Check the trading fees. Might be super high and the company might make kickbacks on that. That's the biggest reason I dropped company stock. Don't want to hold it but the fees are too high to sell it after it vests with any frequency. Decided I'd rather just put more in my 401K and HSA
 
Jan 29, 2018
9,387
my workplace just started an employee stock discount program and revealed the details, and it's a 15% discount with NO vesting period. Up to 15% of your annual salary. As soon as it's bought, it's yours.

... that just sounds like free money to me?

There are definitely people that will say you don't want your investments (or at least too much of them) in the same place your salary comes from. The idea being that if the company doesn't do well suddenly you have no job AND your investments are worthless. If you're confident in your employer though it sounds like a pretty good deal.
 

Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,729
There are definitely people that will say you don't want your investments (or at least too much of them) in the same place your salary comes from. The idea being that if the company doesn't do well suddenly you have no job AND your investments are worthless. If you're confident in your employer though it sounds like a pretty good deal.
Check the trading fees. Might be super high and the company might make kickbacks on that. That's the biggest reason I dropped company stock. Don't want to hold it but the fees are too high to sell it after it vests with any frequency. Decided I'd rather just put more in my 401K and HSA

I totally agree, but... I can literally sell my company stock one day after it's purchased. I wouldn't be exposing myself to any fluctuations of company stock at all, since i'd only own it for a single day. This is with Fidelity, so I'll definitely check what the fees associated with it are, but it can't be more than 15%?
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,768
Here's where we're at:
-My wife is questioning if the IRA is worth it since she's seen hardly any growth and wants to know if there's a better investment option for her. If I recall, she has a targeted Roth IRA through Vanguard. Should she just stick with the IRA since she has no other retirement investment, or is there another option? If sticking with the IRA, should we go ahead and max out the $6k annual contribution?

Certainly don't have all the answers myself, and certainly not an expert nor a financial advisor), but...

For your wife's IRA, even if you dumped it in right before the big 2020 drop, most indexes have been around the 18-19% growth mark thus far this year, with target funds a little under that....so I'm not sure I understand her 'not enough growth' aspect? Unless she's talking pure dollar amounts, and not percentage?

Getting 'much' more growth would require much more risk exposure or trying to pick a few key 'winners' (and/or needing to have lots of money already invested), so I guess it'd depend on her overall tolerance for seeing potential losses, and/or if you think you can pick a couple key stocks you expect to grow significantly.

Otherwise, one potential thing to note is that with target date funds, you have to be careful of which 'date' is selected - if it's something too soon, a high bond allocation could have dented a lot of the aforementioned growth. (I have some older co-workers who have been in target date funds for a while, but just 'sell' all of their shares of the current date fund, and re-buy into a later target date fund every 3-5 years or so to keep the bond percentage lower without having to do more work)

Some target funds also have relatively high expense ratios for being 'set-and-forget' retirement vehicles, compared to just buying indexes directly.

Depending on your/her age, re-allocating into a more traditional index fund(s) and/or lowering the bond component % (some of those target funds IMO load up on bonds way too early on 'age'-wise) might be a better option than a target date....but that again goes back to risk tolerance, age, how much time you want to spend looking up stuff like RoR, expense ratios, etc... (target dates are pretty set-and-forget) and what your other goals are.

Regardless, if you can afford it, you should (almost) always always always max Roth, as you can't play catch-up, and tax-free growth is a huge deal.


-Should I pay off my student loans, or see about refinancing for a lower interest rate and payment, and invest the extra money?

This is a bit more subjective - IMO it depends on your interest rate(s), if your current loans are federal or private, and the overall loan amount remaining relative to your earnings.

Going private, if you have good/great credit, especially if done multiple times over multiple years, can bring those rates down to mortgage levels to at/under 3% (compared to the current fed rates of 5-6%, or even higher), but you risk loss of federal protections, and thus getting screwed if you have a loss of employment or other emergency. Granted, it sounds like your payment is pretty manageable right now, but even so.

Theoretically, if you could pay the debt off and then start putting that 300 dollars into the market immediately, that's a fairly minimal 'missed opportunity cost'.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards paying off my student loans, maxing out my wife's IRA annual contribution, put some into my daughter's 529, and then put the rest into ETFs, index funds, and the sort. If this is a good route, any suggestions on which ones to consider?

IMO that's certainly not a bad plan.

Among ETFs/mutual funds, Fidelity and Vanguard are both good options with super-low fees (or potentially zero, in Fidelity's case, though the zero-fee funds aren't quite as diverse as their minimal-fee counterparts), though vanguard does require a maintained $3k investment to be consider for it's lowest-cost 'admiral' shares for its mutual funds.

Without getting too deep into the weeds, some combination of small/mid-cap US, large-Cap US (or just a total US market), along with some exposure to international index, +/- REITs, along with some percentage (depending on age) in bonds is about as vanilla as index investing gets in terms of historically getting good gains while diversifying and 'minimizing' individual stock fluctuation/risk.


I totally agree, but... I can literally sell my company stock one day after it's purchased. I wouldn't be exposing myself to any fluctuations of company stock at all, since i'd only own it for a single day. This is with Fidelity, so I'll definitely check what the fees associated with it are, but it can't be more than 15%?

Depending on your company's plan (i.e. whether it's included in the 401k or is a separate option), you'd potentially take a short-term tax rate hit, so that would also eat into any profits, but...yeah, it seems like it primarily depends on potential hidden fees or other 'gotcha' aspects.
 
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TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
Here's where we're at
-My wife is questioning if the IRA is worth it since she's seen hardly any growth and wants to know if there's a better investment option for her. If I recall, she has a targeted Roth IRA through Vanguard. Should she just stick with the IRA since she has no other retirement investment, or is there another option? If sticking with the IRA, should we go ahead and max out the $6k annual contribution?
-Should I pay off my student loans, or see about refinancing for a lower interest rate and payment, and invest the extra money?
-Recast our mortgage loan and dump as much as possible into our current house (we have a 10 year plan here)

This is probably one of those common terminology confusions. An IRA is not an investment of any kind, it is a special account that shelters your investment growth from tax. You should absolutely do your best to always max out the contribution room on it. But the returns have nothing to do with it being an IRA, it's what you are actually investing in. I need more detail on what "hardly any growth" means and what actual fund is being invested in. I can assume from "targeted" that it's one of those target retirement date funds which means it's some mix of stocks and bonds, maybe 80/20-ish at the moment? Even a conservative mix should have returned at least 10% this year.

my workplace just started an employee stock discount program and revealed the details, and it's a 15% discount with NO vesting period. Up to 15% of your annual salary. As soon as it's bought, it's yours.

... that just sounds like free money to me?

Yes, you're likely throwing money away by not doing this. My company does 2 stock purchase cycles a year and you get a 15% discount off of either the stock price at the beginning or end of each cycle whichever is lower. And same as you, you can sell instantly if you want. So worst case scenario you make 15% and good case you get 15% + whatever growth the stock has had.

Now, it's not all magic of course. The 15% discount is a taxable benefit so you're not actually going to get 15% and then account for whatever fees the brokerage they use charges. It's probably still going to be pretty good though. Theoretically yes, you could get better performance investing that part of your salary yourself but it is guaranteed profit so it's hard to turn it down.
 

Smiley90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,729
This is probably one of those common terminology confusions. An IRA is not an investment of any kind, it is a special account that shelters your investment growth from tax. You should absolutely do your best to always max out the contribution room on it. But the returns have nothing to do with it being an IRA, it's what you are actually investing in. I need more detail on what "hardly any growth" means and what actual fund is being invested in. I can assume from "targeted" that it's one of those target retirement date funds which means it's some mix of stocks and bonds, maybe 80/20-ish at the moment? Even a conservative mix should have returned at least 10% this year.



Yes, you're likely throwing money away by not doing this. My company does 2 stock purchase cycles a year and you get a 15% discount off of either the stock price at the beginning or end of each cycle whichever is lower. And same as you, you can sell instantly if you want. So worst case scenario you make 15% and good case you get 15% + whatever growth the stock has had.

Now, it's not all magic of course. The 15% discount is a taxable benefit so you're not actually going to get 15% and then account for whatever fees the brokerage they use charges. It's probably still going to be pretty good though. Theoretically yes, you could get better performance investing that part of your salary yourself but it is guaranteed profit so it's hard to turn it down.

They just opened enrollment and Fidelity charges a whopping zero dollar per trade. So it really is 15% free money (-tax) and I just have to decide between selling right away and higher tax or holding for a year and less tax (but higher single-stock exposure)
 

mhayes86

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,246
Maryland
Certainly don't have all the answers myself, and certainly not an expert nor a financial advisor), but...

For your wife's IRA, even if you dumped it in right before the big 2020 drop, most indexes have been around the 18-19% growth mark thus far this year, with target funds a little under that....so I'm not sure I understand her 'not enough growth' aspect? Unless she's talking pure dollar amounts, and not percentage?

Getting 'much' more growth would require much more risk exposure or trying to pick a few key 'winners' (and/or needing to have lots of money already invested), so I guess it'd depend on her overall tolerance for seeing potential losses, and/or if you think you can pick a couple key stocks you expect to grow significantly.

Otherwise, one potential thing to note is that with target date funds, you have to be careful of which 'date' is selected - if it's something too soon, a high bond allocation could have dented a lot of the aforementioned growth. (I have some older co-workers who have been in target date funds for a while, but just 'sell' all of their shares of the current date fund, and re-buy into a later target date fund every 3-5 years or so to keep the bond percentage lower without having to do more work)

Some target funds also have relatively high expense ratios for being 'set-and-forget' retirement vehicles, compared to just buying indexes directly.

Depending on your/her age, re-allocating into a more traditional index fund(s) and/or lowering the bond component % (some of those target funds IMO load up on bonds way too early on 'age'-wise) might be a better option than a target date....but that again goes back to risk tolerance, age, how much time you want to spend looking up stuff like RoR, expense ratios, etc... (target dates are pretty set-and-forget) and what your other goals are.

Regardless, if you can afford it, you should (almost) always always always max Roth, as you can't play catch-up, and tax-free growth is a huge deal.

Thanks for the detailed response!

She's concerned about dollar amount growth. She only has $3k in her IRA (small contributions this year due to several big events), it looks like she only received a 16 cent return in the past year and it's giving her the impression that it's not worth putting more money into the account until speaking with a financial advisor for guidance. I don't have the knowledge to alleviate her concern. Maybe we're missing something or her Vanguard app isn't giving us the full picture. I'll get her to pull it up on a PC to see if there's more detail.

She saw something some time ago suggesting investing in ETFs or another type of fund, then moving the gains to an IRA. I don't know the details and she can't remember where she saw it, but I haven't been able to cross reference any kind of similar tactic to see if it's a good idea. Anyway, we're both risk averse (especially as a single income family), so we want to know the easiest approach, haha. I'm of the mind of 401k/IRA maxing then tossing extra money into other investment accounts. It's just giving her the peace of mind about her IRA or learning that there is actually a better method that we're not aware of.

That's an interesting idea about the targeted date funds. We're both in our early-mid 30's, so the target is around 2055. I've noticed how the mix changes over time when initially setting up my 401k and checking out the tools, so I'll keep that in mind with bonds.

This is a bit more subjective - IMO it depends on your interest rate(s), if your current loans are federal or private, and the overall loan amount remaining relative to your earnings.

Going private, if you have good/great credit, especially if done multiple times over multiple years, can bring those rates down to mortgage levels to at/under 3% (compared to the current fed rates of 5-6%, or even higher), but you risk loss of federal protections, and thus getting screwed if you have a loss of employment or other emergency. Granted, it sounds like your payment is pretty manageable right now, but even so.

Theoretically, if you could pay the debt off and then start putting that 300 dollars into the market immediately, that's a fairly minimal 'missed opportunity cost'.

My loans are federal and have a higher rate. I have great credit and was about to refinance at the beginning of 2020 through SoFi, but then repayment and interest accrual were frozen with covid relief, so I held off. I continued to pay down the principal and currently sit at $30k left on the loan. I've had the cash on hand to pay it off for some time now, but have been holding off due to several events (baby, down payment for house, affording two mortgages until house sells, emergency). The idea of removing the loan off my back is great, and I like the instant gratification of saving $300/mo that can go elsewhere. If I lose my job or some other catastrophe happens, at least that's one less thing to worry about!

IMO that's certainly not a bad plan.

Among ETFs/mutual funds, Fidelity and Vanguard are both good options with super-low fees (or potentially zero, in Fidelity's case, though the zero-fee funds aren't quite as diverse as their minimal-fee counterparts), though vanguard does require a maintained $3k investment to be consider for it's lowest-cost 'admiral' shares for its mutual funds.

Without getting too deep into the weeds, some combination of small/mid-cap US, large-Cap US (or just a total US market), along with some exposure to international index, +/- REITs, along with some percentage (depending on age) in bonds is about as vanilla as index investing gets in terms of historically getting good gains while diversifying and 'minimizing' individual stock fluctuation/risk.

Great, thanks! I currently have some money invested in a Vanguard high yield ETF and the 500 index fund admiral shares. I'll take a look into some of the others you mentioned.
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,768
Thanks for the detailed response!

She's concerned about dollar amount growth. She only has $3k in her IRA (small contributions this year due to several big events), it looks like she only received a 16 cent return in the past year and it's giving her the impression that it's not worth putting more money into the account until speaking with a financial advisor for guidance. I don't have the knowledge to alleviate her concern. Maybe we're missing something or her Vanguard app isn't giving us the full picture. I'll get her to pull it up on a PC to see if there's more detail.

First off, I may need a little clarification - when you say IRA, I'm assuming you mean a ROTH-type 'post-tax' retirement account vehicle? Or is it something else?

As for her results, that seems....improbable, even if the target date fund has a high bond percentage (which it shouldn't, if it's 2055 - a quick check of vanguard and fidelity has their funds at over 10% ytd growth), unless she just-so-happened to put in more money right at the 'top' of the day-to-day fluctuation multiple times - in which case she was just supremely unlucky AND you both just looked at the results super recently, with the market having just downturned.

Granted, 3k (especially if done over time) isn't gonna see a ton of actual dollar growth compared to, say, 100k, but growth still should be higher than that, lol.

Re: speaking with an advisor - just be careful - a good chunk of advisors will try to steer you towards their own custom allocations - and while some are good in that they 'could' out-perform the market overall, they almost always have much higher expense ratios that translate into more money for your advisor, no matter if you out-perform the market, or under-perform it - over the last 15 years, approx. 8 out of 10 advisors have not beaten the market overall, especially taking their fees/expense drag into consideration.

The allocation of just investing into several index funds (mainly for diversification purposes) yourself is, at least historically speaking (which admittedly doesn't guarantee future returns), the next 'least risky' stock-type option if you want to venture outside the target date funds

She saw something some time ago suggesting investing in ETFs or another type of fund, then moving the gains to an IRA.

Depending on the IRA type and/or which brokerage you're using, you can sometimes (usually, at this point) just buy ETFs (or at least, their mutual fund index equivalents), at least at the big dogs like Vanguard or Fidelity.

The main difference between ETFs and mutual funds being that you can buy/sell ETFs immediately (like stocks), while mutual funds have to wait until end of day/market to activate buy/sell orders - though depending on which brokerage you use, you may pay brokerage fees for ETFs (though this is going away for more and more of the bigger investment firms) - ETFs are typically a little more 'liquid' capital.

Anyway, we're both risk averse (especially as a single income family), so we want to know the easiest approach, haha. I'm of the mind of 401k/IRA maxing then tossing extra money into other investment accounts. It's just giving her the peace of mind about her IRA or learning that there is actually a better method that we're not aware of.

Honestly, target date funds are about as 'easy'/set-and-forget as investing in the stock market gets while still offering decent(ish) returns, though they typically lag somewhat behind pure index fund options due the aforementioned bond component and higher fees/expense ratios, since they're more actively managed by someone behind the scenes changing the stock/bond allocation over time.

IMO, switching to like...3 or 4 index funds is...only a little more initial research/work, just as 'non-risky' due to diversification (if properly selected), has much lower overall expense ratios, and have historically out-performed target funds (just look at the S&P historical averages versus target funds)....but it WILL swing up and down more number-wise, especially as we're also in one of the biggest bull runs in the market's history.

IF you did go into index funds, you'd also probably want to theoretically re-balance your investments %-wise every couple of years, if not every year, and would (theoretically) have to manually re-direct some of your investments into safer/less risky options like bonds later on in life.

So it does depend on how much work/research you two wanna do.
 
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TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
They just opened enrollment and Fidelity charges a whopping zero dollar per trade. So it really is 15% free money (-tax) and I just have to decide between selling right away and higher tax or holding for a year and less tax (but higher single-stock exposure)

Dang, wish I had that. In the end it's a fairly small percentage of the profit but I have to pay the transaction fee for the sale of the stock, the fee for e-trade to wire transfer it to Wise.com, and then the currency conversion fee to Wise so that I can finally e-transfer it to my bank account.
Pain in the butt that our stock only trades on American markets for all the Canadian employees.