I was wondering if the new free Fidelity international fund did both developed international markets and emerging markets and the answer is yes, it does. Large and mid-caps.
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Retirement-Era |OT| How to Invest For Retirement
- Thread starter TheTrinity
- Start date
- OT
My employer matches but not until after a year of employment and I'm a handful of months away from my anniversary date. Never occurred to me that some employers don't do the year end thing - I'll have to ask some of my coworkers. Thanks for bringing this up!
Why do you say that? Tesla has promise but it's far from a sure thing in my opinion, and quite the gamble. Have they even made a profit yet, ever?
You clearly have not met ERA's Tesla Fanboys and Fangirls yet.
OP
OP
While they were probably sarcastic I think Tesla has had 2 profitable quarters?
That poster actually wasn't being sarcastic. A few pages ago they were recommending investing in the FAANG companies if you wanted growth, not doing an index fund which is just ridiculous.
I don't know if we have a thread in Hangouts where people talk about individual stocks like we had at GAF but that's really the place for those discussions, not a retirement thread.
I don't know if we have a thread in Hangouts where people talk about individual stocks like we had at GAF but that's really the place for those discussions, not a retirement thread.
I'm glad that (usually) OT threads end up steering people here instead of remaining a cesspool of "OK, for long-term, you're going to need about 80% etherium, and pour the rest into a mixture of Tesla and Snapchat (trust me on this)..."
You are going to want to diversify that portfolio with some Lego sets and Magic the Gathering cards.
Hey, we made some good money a few years ago selling my husband's old MTG cards. Dumped it all in the mortgage.
Nothing in this world is sure except you will one day die.
I like how you purposely left out the last line of my post and pretended that was all I wrote and responded to it like I did. This is called being disingenuous.
Need some advice, if some of you can kindly provide:
I've had a Vanguard brokerage account for over two years now. Approximately $35k in the account with mutual index funds. However I've been contemplating opening up a second brokerage account elsewhere to possibly invest in penny stocks or other funds that may not be available to Vanguard. I don't intend on splurging what I would otherwise invest in mutual funds at Vanguard, but I do want to dabble with options and cheap stocks. Also I am becoming more green conscious and would prefer to have a broker that has a larger selection of ESG or environmental funds that invest in eco-friendly companies. Vanguard, from what I understand, has one currently and is poised to release two additional funds come September, but I would still prefer to have more options.
With that said, what broker would y'all recommend that isn't Vanguard? I've contemplated Schwab and TDAmeritrade and have looked up the pros and cons, but I would appreciate advice from this community. Thanks.
Edit: I'm also looking into Ally Invest which I might consider.
I've had a Vanguard brokerage account for over two years now. Approximately $35k in the account with mutual index funds. However I've been contemplating opening up a second brokerage account elsewhere to possibly invest in penny stocks or other funds that may not be available to Vanguard. I don't intend on splurging what I would otherwise invest in mutual funds at Vanguard, but I do want to dabble with options and cheap stocks. Also I am becoming more green conscious and would prefer to have a broker that has a larger selection of ESG or environmental funds that invest in eco-friendly companies. Vanguard, from what I understand, has one currently and is poised to release two additional funds come September, but I would still prefer to have more options.
With that said, what broker would y'all recommend that isn't Vanguard? I've contemplated Schwab and TDAmeritrade and have looked up the pros and cons, but I would appreciate advice from this community. Thanks.
Edit: I'm also looking into Ally Invest which I might consider.
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You might want to ask in the investment thread. You wont find much love for penny stocks in these parts. ;)
https://www.resetera.com/threads/in...ividends-no-tales-from-the-crypto-here.28604/
Oh haha I didn't realize what thread I'm in. Sorry about that and thanks!
So I have a question about an investment account. I have both a 401K and Roth account (under just my name) via Fidelity. My wife has her own retirement accounts elsewhere. We want to get into investing, and the easiest way is to open up an investment account on Fidelity.
However looking online it seems a joint account might not be the best way to go. We're just looking to invest in some stocks and let them ride and use it as an additional way to diversity for down the road. maybe occasionally take some money out or do some short term trading. Is a joint account not the best way to go in this case?
However looking online it seems a joint account might not be the best way to go. We're just looking to invest in some stocks and let them ride and use it as an additional way to diversity for down the road. maybe occasionally take some money out or do some short term trading. Is a joint account not the best way to go in this case?
OP is missing Roth 401(K) which I think is becoming a more common option. It might be helpful to add some information on that to avoid confusion. My company offers this as an option and the matching applies here.
Wormdundee
Wormdundee
I just found out some info on those new Fidelity 0% fee Total US and Total International funds. They're not actually buying stock in every one of these companies like regular total market mutual funds do. Instead they are using some algorithm to simulate the total stock market by just buying the stock of companies that supposedly represent entire industries. Other companies have tried this before and it generally doesn't end well due to lack of true diversity.
I think anyone at Fidelity would just be better off using whatever total stock market funds they're already in and staying away from these.
I think anyone at Fidelity would just be better off using whatever total stock market funds they're already in and staying away from these.
I think these are synthetic index funds which do not hold all the real assets but using financial tools to replicate performance similar to index benchmark. Many European based index fund use this method.
https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip/site/advisor/etfcenter/article/ETF_PhysicalSynthetic
I'd rather have a physical fund than a synthetic one given the risks, including especially the counterparty risk. As Vanguard states, the synthetic ones are for "...investors seeking to invest in harder-to-access markets, less liquid benchmarks, or other difficult-to-implement strategies..." which any normal investor saving for retirement shouldn't be doing in the first place. In a total stock market index fund it should be actually investing in everything but these funds aren't because they're giving them away and so trying to be as cheap as possible to limit losses.
They're also not transparent like physical funds are. Here is FZROX's Morningstar page: https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/fzrox/quote.html
The "Top Holdings" is completely blank.
As an example, here is SWPPX, a physical fund's Morningstar page: https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/swppx/quote.html
And I can scroll down and see:
Apple Inc
Microsoft Corp
Amazon.com Inc
Facebook Inc A
JPMorgan Chase & Co
And can see the top 25 if I click on "more".
And if I go to the Schwab page I can see every single holding and its percentage in this mutual fund.
https://www.schwabfunds.com/public/csim/nn/holdings.html?symbol=SWPPX
If I go to the Fidelity page on FZROX I get absolutely nothing.
https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/composition/31635T708
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To follow up it looks like Fidelity has 90 days from when they started offering these "Zero Funds" before telling investors what is in them, so they will at some point be more transparent.
Still, I'd rather stick to funds that actually own the stocks of every company, especially as they are so inexpensive anymore. My ETF that follows the US stock market charges just 0.03%, after all. I'd rather pay $3 per $10,000 and know I really do own the entire market instead of paying $0 and having something that only pretends to do so while trusting some counterparty to make good if one of these things screws up.
Still, I'd rather stick to funds that actually own the stocks of every company, especially as they are so inexpensive anymore. My ETF that follows the US stock market charges just 0.03%, after all. I'd rather pay $3 per $10,000 and know I really do own the entire market instead of paying $0 and having something that only pretends to do so while trusting some counterparty to make good if one of these things screws up.
As I said earlier, if you see a for-profit firm undercutting Vanguard on price, be on the lookout for some kind of catch. Given Vanguard's not-for-profit approach, size advantage, and patented hybrid mutual fund / ETF structure, it is tough to beat them in actual returns while offering an equivalent product.
If you compare VTSAX vs FSTMX for instance, the Vanguard fund has outperformed the Fidelity fund by about 0.10% per year over the last decade.
https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/vtsax/quote.html
https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/fstmx/quote.html
That is despite FSTMX having a lower expense ratio (0.04% vs 0.02%). When you get down to such low costs, things like tax efficiency and tracking error become more important than shaving another 2 bp off the expense ratio.
The one area where I feel like Vanguard is behind is for the small investor, since a lot of funds have a $3K minimum and require $10K to get into the Admiral shares. Of course you could always use ETFs instead, but then you lose some of the convenience of mutual funds.
If you compare VTSAX vs FSTMX for instance, the Vanguard fund has outperformed the Fidelity fund by about 0.10% per year over the last decade.
https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/vtsax/quote.html
https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/fstmx/quote.html
That is despite FSTMX having a lower expense ratio (0.04% vs 0.02%). When you get down to such low costs, things like tax efficiency and tracking error become more important than shaving another 2 bp off the expense ratio.
The one area where I feel like Vanguard is behind is for the small investor, since a lot of funds have a $3K minimum and require $10K to get into the Admiral shares. Of course you could always use ETFs instead, but then you lose some of the convenience of mutual funds.
Hey, so I am kind of getting killed with fees by Empower retirement (from a previous job) where I believe the only option was to accept an actively managed portfolio and was looking for the smartest and cheapest (free) way to rollover into vanguard or fidelity... or just turn my actively managed account into a passively managed fund. Anyone have a good guide on this? I heard some of these companies try to sell you on staying with their portfolios, or make it somewhat of a cumbersome process to transfer.
Transferring into a 401k to another should be free right? Do you just do that through an IRA? Sorry if these are all dumb questions, I just want to avoid mistakes if I can, or at least the easy ones.
Transferring into a 401k to another should be free right? Do you just do that through an IRA? Sorry if these are all dumb questions, I just want to avoid mistakes if I can, or at least the easy ones.
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From my experience in Canada, I'm charged a small fee by the institution I transfer the funds out of, but my own bank (which I have my investment account with) can refund them if they're under X amount.
The process is pretty simple: I go on my bank's site, fill a form saying I what I want to sell, and in what account I want it transferred, and they handle it with the other institution.
Basically I contribute to my employment's 401k until I max out employer contributions, then move them out.
OP
OP
Yes, those zero-fee funds are not tracking any established index as the fund has to pay licensing fees for that and they're trying to cut costs wherever possible. Instead they track an index that Fidelity made up.
This isn't a huge deal but it does mean that Fidelity can 'adjust' the index if they end up with tracking errors.
This isn't a huge deal but it does mean that Fidelity can 'adjust' the index if they end up with tracking errors.
Does anyone invest here through Hargreaves Lansdown (in the UK)? I opened a Lifetime ISA last night with monthly contributions of £25, however it was late so I picked the 'Pick fund later' option. Now when I'm trying to pick the actual fund I want I want to invest in, it just keeps taking me to the dealing page where it says the minimum investment is £100. Do I just need to wait until I have £100 in my account before I can pick a fund? Any help appreciated!
Contact them. No one here is going to know that specific info.
Getting more interested in investing but outside of workplace matching gonna be a while since I have to pay down student loans first =(
I keep hearing things about a bear market that may be coming. I'm trying to decide what I want to do. I have some money in a very nice, managed fund. It started out as my "play" money, but has done really well (I think 12% overall since I've owned it, with some years being up to 20). However, the fund is volatile, so if the market drops, it drops pretty hard. The fees for the managed fund aren't that bad (I think .7%).
I'm considering moving maybe half of it or maybe more to VFIAX, in case the market recedes. I don't want to lose out on some potentially great returns, but I also want to protect some of my gains. Any advice from seasoned fund investors?
I'm considering moving maybe half of it or maybe more to VFIAX, in case the market recedes. I don't want to lose out on some potentially great returns, but I also want to protect some of my gains. Any advice from seasoned fund investors?
1. Don't try to time the market.
2. Volatile fund implies stocks of some sort, be they small caps, emerging markets, etc, as opposed to high-quality bond funds. By changing over to another stock fund like an S&P 500 Index fund, you're not protecting yourself from a bear market. VFIAX dropped 37% in 2008, 22% in 2002.
3. What type of account is this money in? A tax-advantaged account like a 401(k), IRA; or in a taxable brokerage account? I'm going to assume the latter, given the "play money" description. If you sell those shares, then you pay capital gains taxes to the IRS.
4. Strongly encourage you to make your own Investment Policy Statement. That includes asset allocation. Your fear of a bear market indicates that you probably don't have the ideal asset allocation, for you. Here's one such calculator created by seasoned fund investors.
5. Don't try to time the market.
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i have a sort of dumb general roth knowledge question that i'm stumped by.. currently mid 20s, fortunate enough to be able to max my 401k and roth ira for the last year and hoping to continue to do so in the coming years. my 401k is about 60/40 pre-tax/roth contributions.
i just really started investing properly this last year or two -- i'm at the 'beginning' of my career and hope to make my more by the end of it, so higher tax bracket etc, which appears to be the selling point of roth. what i don't understand is that once i retire, say in 40 years, won't i be in a much lower tax bracket because i'll be taking out much less than i need now annually? i can't imagine taking out as much income as i generate now when i retire... hopefully i will have paid off a house by then, and at the very least, i won't have to be taking out money for the purpose of saving for retirement. doesn't this sorta negate the benefit of the roth contribution in the first place?
i just really started investing properly this last year or two -- i'm at the 'beginning' of my career and hope to make my more by the end of it, so higher tax bracket etc, which appears to be the selling point of roth. what i don't understand is that once i retire, say in 40 years, won't i be in a much lower tax bracket because i'll be taking out much less than i need now annually? i can't imagine taking out as much income as i generate now when i retire... hopefully i will have paid off a house by then, and at the very least, i won't have to be taking out money for the purpose of saving for retirement. doesn't this sorta negate the benefit of the roth contribution in the first place?
What you are saying is a pretty common view. However, I am a contrarian on this point, so let me give you my arguments for why Roth contributions make sense for high earners.
1. Roth and Traditional accounts have the same contribution limits. However, because you are putting in after-tax dollars with the Roth, the future value of the Roth contribution is higher. Effectively, if you make Roth contributions, you get to contribute more - assuming you are able to max out the contribution limits. This can offset some difference in tax rates.
2. No one knows that tax rates will be like in the future, particularly if you are a young person trying to forecast what income taxes will be in 40 years. You can certainly imagine scenarios where income taxes are much higher - for instance if the country adopts universal health care.
3. No one knows what their expenses will be like in the future. It could be that you have to withdraw a lot more money than you expect. Maybe you have medical bills not covered by insurance. Maybe you decide to become a world traveler. Maybe you want to help your grandkids pay for college or buy a house. Not only does Roth benefit you if you are withdrawing a lot, you can (perhaps more importantly) not even bother keeping track and just use your money without stress or regrets.
4. You can withdraw the contributions (but not the gains) from a Roth account without penalty before retirement age. This makes them more attractive if you want the option to retire early. If you are maxing out your contributions now, do you really want to be working into your 60s?
5. Unlike traditional accounts, Roth IRAs do not have required minimum distributions in retirement. RMDs force you to withdraw money, losing the tax advantages. If you live a long life, and can afford not to withdraw from your Roth (for instance because you have savings in a taxable account), this can be a huge financial benefit if you can get an extra decade or two of tax-free growth.
6. If you have money left in the account when you die, your beneficiaries will be forced to begin withdrawing the money. They may be in a high tax bracket, where getting tax-free money from a Roth would be better.
7. This is kind of a repeat of point #2, but it is really important. With a Roth account, you know *exactly* how much money you have saved. No matter how tax rates change, that's the amount of money you have. With a traditional account, if Congress decides to change the income tax rate, it changes the effective value of your retirement savings. That is an extra risk that you have to account for in your retirement planning that doesn't exist with Roth. One of the central tenets of investing is that risk should be compensated. So if the overall tax you pay on a traditional account is lower on average, well, that only makes sense as compensation for the added risk.
tokkun, what if a high earner in the 39.6% federal income tax bracket living in a state with a high state income taxes (and maybe city income tax!), is on track to retire within 15 years, decides upon retirement to move to a state with no state income tax and live a more modest life within the 25% federal income tax bracket? Would you recommend a Roth 401(k) in this scenario? Asking for a friend.
I'd imagine a high-earner would rather take money out of his taxable account, maybe even tax-loss harvest, to free up some money for a grandchild's tuition, than to take any money out of a tax-advantaged account, no? Asking for a friend.
Everyone (in America) will want to be working into his 60s, at least part-time, if only to potentially get some decent health care. I know multimillionaires in their 40s and 50s who continue to work for my employer so they could have good, cheaper, health insurance without diving deep into their savings. FIRE individuals working part-time at Starbucks is apparently a real thing. #MAGA
RMD in 2018 for a $700,000 401(k) account is $34,000 a year. That's within $1,000 of maximum Social Security benefits. It's not as high as I thought. Congress can also legally repeal tax-free gains in a Roth IRA.
I'd imagine a high-earner would rather take money out of his taxable account, maybe even tax-loss harvest, to free up some money for a grandchild's tuition, than to take any money out of a tax-advantaged account, no? Asking for a friend.
Everyone (in America) will want to be working into his 60s, at least part-time, if only to potentially get some decent health care. I know multimillionaires in their 40s and 50s who continue to work for my employer so they could have good, cheaper, health insurance without diving deep into their savings. FIRE individuals working part-time at Starbucks is apparently a real thing. #MAGA
RMD in 2018 for a $700,000 401(k) account is $34,000 a year. That's within $1,000 of maximum Social Security benefits. It's not as high as I thought. Congress can also legally repeal tax-free gains in a Roth IRA.
If you assume no changes in tax laws, you will almost certainly end up with lower taxes doing traditional contributions in that scenario. The difference you get from maxing out Roth vs Traditional is roughly in the 5-10% range, IIRC, so the change in federal taxes in this scenario is enough on its own, even without the local tax arbitrage.
The other advantages of Roth funds (e.g. flexibility in withdrawals and reduced uncertainty) do not have an objective valuation, so it is up to your friend to assess their own value to them in the calculus.
Depends on how much money you have. At a certain point this discussion becomes academic and you would be better off structuring the money as a trust.
Yes, that is something I think about. But I look at it this way:
- They could retroactively tax Traditional IRA deductions.
- They could just tax wealth directly.
- There could be a Constitutional amendment allowing them to legally levy a tax on me personally.
Technically it is all possible. So to keep myself from going mad, I try to limit myself to only worrying about the things that already have some historical precedent, and there is such precedent for higher income taxes.
Hello Retirement-ERA!
I have about $5,000 sitting in a 401k from a previous job. Nothing has been contributed in a few years, but I'm in a place now where I'm ready to start saving again.
Should I roll that money over to a Roth-IRA?
I have about $5,000 sitting in a 401k from a previous job. Nothing has been contributed in a few years, but I'm in a place now where I'm ready to start saving again.
Should I roll that money over to a Roth-IRA?
As someone with a generally poor understanding of finance, I appreciate the straight forward answer, haha..
My plan is to contact Vanguard and discuss this option. My accountant strongly recommended I focus on a Roth IRA.
Okay, my 401k has reached its contribution limit for the year so I'm looking into dumping some $$$ into a Roth IRA. Are there any downsides to putting both my 401k and Roth IRA at the same firm (in my case, Vanguard)?
For my Roth IRA, should I even bother investing in international funds? For the sake of diversification, I've put 10% of my 401k contributions into the "cheaper" international fund my 401k offers and it's not only my most expensive expense ratio, it has lost 4% for me (and dropped another 2% today apparently). Not sure if I want to sell off and eat the loss but I'm guessing I'll have to pay those management fees on top of my losses at the end of the year?
For my Roth IRA, should I even bother investing in international funds? For the sake of diversification, I've put 10% of my 401k contributions into the "cheaper" international fund my 401k offers and it's not only my most expensive expense ratio, it has lost 4% for me (and dropped another 2% today apparently). Not sure if I want to sell off and eat the loss but I'm guessing I'll have to pay those management fees on top of my losses at the end of the year?
There are no meaningful downsides and there are occasionally upsides to having your accounts at the same place.
Yes, having some money tracking a broad index of international equities is a good thing. VTIAX and VXUS (the ETF) are gold-standard funds. Like with the market generally, there are some years where international will outperform the US and other years where it will underperform. It's not the end of the world if you have a simple domestic Total Market/Total Bond setup given the interconnectedness of economies/companies, but pretty much any major indexing strategy incorporates international investments.
Yes, you will pay the management fees regardless of how the funds perform.
So I have been investing in 3 funds (VTI (65%), VXUS (25%) and VTEB (10%)) quarterly for about 2 years now, leveraging the principle of DCA.
I know this goes against DCA but I skipped my September payment because I feel* as though I've just been buying at historically high prices. Instead, I put the exact same amount towards paying down the mortgage early.
I'm leaning towards doing the same thing with my December payment unless there is a sizeable downswing, but wanted to check here if it was ill-advised.
*I know feelings shouldn't be involved in this process
(Edit: I should add that I'm in my mid-30s, already maxing my company's 401K and am priced out of Roth contributions)
Specifically calling on tokkun thanks bud!
I know this goes against DCA but I skipped my September payment because I feel* as though I've just been buying at historically high prices. Instead, I put the exact same amount towards paying down the mortgage early.
I'm leaning towards doing the same thing with my December payment unless there is a sizeable downswing, but wanted to check here if it was ill-advised.
*I know feelings shouldn't be involved in this process
(Edit: I should add that I'm in my mid-30s, already maxing my company's 401K and am priced out of Roth contributions)
Specifically calling on tokkun thanks bud!
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Bumrush, you didn't call on me, but thought I might be able to help.
You should be trying to keep a balanced portfolio. So as stock prices rise and bond prices drop, you should be buying more bonds. If your VTEB is supposed to be 10%, you should be buying more of that to remain balanced. This is what helps offsets market corrections, and it's much better than trying to time the market.
As a whole paying off any loan or debts isn't a bad decision. You are trading a the ever changing market return for a guaranteed 3% to 7% loan payment rate. There are a lot of opinions about which is better, but you are making good decisions with either choice.
You should be trying to keep a balanced portfolio. So as stock prices rise and bond prices drop, you should be buying more bonds. If your VTEB is supposed to be 10%, you should be buying more of that to remain balanced. This is what helps offsets market corrections, and it's much better than trying to time the market.
As a whole paying off any loan or debts isn't a bad decision. You are trading a the ever changing market return for a guaranteed 3% to 7% loan payment rate. There are a lot of opinions about which is better, but you are making good decisions with either choice.
Thanks. I should note that each quarter I'm putting $5K so I am able to consistently rebalance to 65%/25%/10% pretty easily. I appreciate the response!
Bonds are dropping because of interest rates right now, not stock prices.
There are lots of reasons for the current price of bonds. What's important is to maintain a balanced portfolio and to try and include some more stable allocations if the current market makes your nervous.
Gonna ask here cuz you guys might have some ideas for something like this.
I plan to pay off my $75k mortgage in 3 years starting 01/01/2019. That's $25k a year into... something? Not sure what way to go but was thinking of pumping it into an indexed fund. Am I crazy to do that instead of just putting it in a saving account?
I'm not putting it towards the principal monthly because I want to make sure I can absolutely get rid of the payment before I drop even one extra cent into the mortgage. I figure if I lose my job at any time, I'll still be able to use the money for mortgage payments if I keep it instead of putting it torwads principal. There is no PMI on the loan.
I plan to pay off my $75k mortgage in 3 years starting 01/01/2019. That's $25k a year into... something? Not sure what way to go but was thinking of pumping it into an indexed fund. Am I crazy to do that instead of just putting it in a saving account?
I'm not putting it towards the principal monthly because I want to make sure I can absolutely get rid of the payment before I drop even one extra cent into the mortgage. I figure if I lose my job at any time, I'll still be able to use the money for mortgage payments if I keep it instead of putting it torwads principal. There is no PMI on the loan.
Hey everyone. My girlfriend's 18 year old cousin just had his father pass away. His father left him a home that, once sold, will net him nearly six figures in proceeds.
His parents were divorced, so the money goes straight to him. His mom and other family members are trying to reach for handouts, so we're trying to come up with investment strategies for him, so there's not much liquidity for them to take.
Sorry if this is too broad of a question, but if anyone has any advice we can pass on to him as to how to properly invest his inheritance, we would greatly appreciate it!
His parents were divorced, so the money goes straight to him. His mom and other family members are trying to reach for handouts, so we're trying to come up with investment strategies for him, so there's not much liquidity for them to take.
Sorry if this is too broad of a question, but if anyone has any advice we can pass on to him as to how to properly invest his inheritance, we would greatly appreciate it!
Tell him to dump it all in a total market index fund and forget about it.
That said will likely be (inheritance) tax issues he will have to deal with that might require professional guidance. Depends on where.
That a lot of money that is wasting away for three years...What does your emergency fund situation look like?
Are you dead set on paying of the mortgage in 3 years or would you be ok with waiting 5 or more. If you're flexible invest it and pull it out at an opportune moment when the market is not tanking at that time.
I'll be at 6 months emergency fund ($7500) by end of year. I don't have a car payment or CC payments. So, at that point, I wanted to start a strategy to pay off this condo in 3ish years, if I can pull it off, and then rent it out. It doesn't have to be 3 years but I definitely don't want to wait over 5.