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asdad123

Member
Oct 25, 2017
217
Figured out I should ask here...

My fiancé and I are looking to buy a house in ~5 years. We currently have $30,000 saved up and are putting away another $2500 per month. Would it be bad to put this money into a vanguard account mixed of 35% VTSAX, 25% VTSAX, and 40% VBTLX? Using a calculator, if we average a 5% return, we'd have roughly $230k for a down payment. Soooooo good idea/bad idea?
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,875
Metro Detroit
Figured out I should ask here...

My fiancé and I are looking to buy a house in ~5 years. We currently have $30,000 saved up and are putting away another $2500 per month. Would it be bad to put this money into a vanguard account mixed of 35% VTSAX, 25% VTSAX, and 40% VBTLX? Using a calculator, if we average a 5% return, we'd have roughly $230k for a down payment. Soooooo good idea/bad idea?
Assuming you are flexible as to the exact time to withdraw. Good idea. If it has to be 5 years, no ifs and buts maybe not.
 
OP
OP
TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
Just because this is kind of one of my things. I want you to be really sure that buying this house is a good financial decision. Is this $2500 all your savings for the month or is it in addition to some other retirement related savings? And again for the 30k, is this designated 'house' money or is it all of your current savings? If this is supposed to be a standard down payment of 20% then this is clearly a million dollar+ home. What percentage of your take home is the mortgage going to be and how does it compare to current rent? Have you accounted for additional costs of home ownership vs. renting in the cost-benefit analysis?

If this is all or a significant portion of your savings have you considered the risk that comes with holding that much of your net worth in a single asset/sector?

Not trying to be a nagger here, I'll assume that you've thought about all this stuff but there are plenty of people that have jumped into home ownership because it's what you're "supposed to do" in life or whatever. Reassure me my friend! It's the biggest purchase of anyone's life and it deserves a thorough think through.
 

WarLox

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
574
Lets say one is:

Single, 30, 80k job, 100k cash on hand, apartment, in usa... just started investing in 401k.

Any suggestions?
 

Soda

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,873
Dunedin, New Zealand
Lets say one is:

Single, 30, 80k job, 100k cash on hand, apartment, in usa... just started investing in 401k.

Any suggestions?

Make a list of things you want to purchase or save for in the next 1, 5, and 10 years. I'd recommend you save up an emergency fund (3-6 months worth of expenses is a common example). Get that emergency fund squared away. After that, look forward: do you want or need a car, home, or other large purchase anytime in the next 10 years? I'd start setting aside some of that 100k for that, depending on your time frame.

With what's left, you could save it towards retirement. Lots of ways to do that, but maxing out a Roth IRA or Traditional IRA ($5,500/yr in the USA) this year and every year until your 100k is invested would be a reasonable approach. However, since that's only 5% of the money per year, you'll probably not want to wait 20 years to invest it all, so consider investing without any sort of IRA. Brokerage firms such as Fidelity and Vanguard are both highly-trusted and worth considering.

Disclaimer: I'm not a financial professional by any means.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
This is a great thread and I'm really enjoying reading through Mr. Money Mustache blog that got linked in one of the first posts.

I'm in my early 30s and never really paid much attention to saving or investing or retirement until I first started investing in a 401k just last year only up to 6% to meet the employer match. Dumb, I know, but I'm hoping to learn as much as can I start righting this ship to chart a course for financial independence sooner than later. Luckily, I have pretty good income and a lot of room to eliminating spending waste that can be allocated to investing. First thing first, I think I will open up an account at Vanguard and start up a Roth IRA.

Any thoughts about maxing it out with VTSMX or is seen as smarter to do one of the target date funds?
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,545
This is a great thread and I'm really enjoying reading through Mr. Money Mustache blog that got linked in one of the first posts.

I'm in my early 30s and never really paid much attention to saving or investing or retirement until I first started investing in a 401k just last year only up to 6% to meet the employer match. Dumb, I know, but I'm hoping to learn as much as can I start righting this ship to chart a course for financial independence sooner than later. Luckily, I have pretty good income and a lot of room to eliminating spending waste that can be allocated to investing. First thing first, I think I will open up an account at Vanguard and start up a Roth IRA.

Any thoughts about maxing it out with VTSMX or is seen as smarter to do one of the target date funds?

Personally I'm not a fan of target date funds as they are a "one size fits all" thing according to your age. People the same age can have different tolerances for risk which target date funds don't account for, although of course you can pick a year earlier or later than the year you want to retire to somewhat account for this. They're fine for someone that wants to be totally hands-off but eh.
You could also look at VTWSX. VTSMX is the total US and charges .14% year while VTWSX is the US, developed international, and emerging markets all in one globally diversified index fund that charges .19%. I know some people don't like doing international stocks because of currency risks and whatnot but I don't want to rely strictly on American companies myself.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Personally I'm not a fan of target date funds as they are a "one size fits all" thing according to your age. People the same age can have different tolerances for risk which target date funds don't account for, although of course you can pick a year earlier or later than the year you want to retire to somewhat account for this. They're fine for someone that wants to be totally hands-off but eh.
You could also look at VTWSX. VTSMX is the total US and charges .14% year while VTWSX is the US, developed international, and emerging markets all in one globally diversified index fund that charges .19%. I know some people don't like doing international stocks because of currency risks and whatnot but I don't want to rely strictly on American companies myself.

Thanks a lot! Hadn't really heard of VTWMX, so it looks like I'm going to have to read up some more before making a decision.
 

Skel1ingt0n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,752
Closing on our new house in a couple weeks, and selling our current home a couple weeks after that. This aligns with a big commission check, a bonus, a large personal sale, and a baby coming two weeks later. I've been doing some basic internet research on where I should be putting my funds, and everyone seems to have something different to say. I won't bore you all with basic questions, but I would like to focus primarily on CDs.

29 years old. Married. Been contributing to 401k since I was 23, but this is the first year I've been super aggressive - putting in maximum allowance ($18K). Wife puts in like $10K/yr for about a decade. Will also be contributing max amount to Roth this year for first time.

I love my job, but it is not nearly as secure as my wife's. I'm probably fine for a long while, but I'm just something of a worry-wort (knock on wood and all that). I plan to invest some liquid funds next year, but I want three months' salary in an emergency fund per most recommendations and common sense. But I hate the idea of it just sitting there and losing to inflation. The obvious solution is to go with a CD. Looks like you can get ~2.4% interest on anything 2+ years and $10,000K+. But over and over and over again it's like every site is warning me about early withdrawal penalties. But... I get that sucks and yeah it could eat into stuff, but most every one is only six months interest lost. I don't think that's... such a big deal? Am I misunderstanding. I mean, if I put an emergency fund at 2.4% 2yrs at a time for 4, 6, 8+ years and God-forbid I need to withdrawl either six months from now or six years from now.... it was still the better call than letting it just sit in my savings at .0012% or whatever laughable rate it's at... right?
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
I'm seeing a lot of speculation that a recession is looming. Should I hold off on continued Vanguard index funds investments? I'm at approximately $35k in them and had auto $100+ investments to be made weekly but I've since canceled that. Wondering whether to hold off investments of any kind for a year or two.
 

Robiin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
311
I'm seeing a lot of speculation that a recession is looming. Should I hold off on continued Vanguard index funds investments? I'm at approximately $35k in them and had auto $100+ investments to be made weekly but I've since canceled that. Wondering whether to hold off investments of any kind for a year or two.
Time in the market beats timing the market. Unless you plan to withdraw in less than five fears I see no argument for stashing liquidity vs putting in weekly investments.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
Time in the market beats timing the market. Unless you plan to withdraw in less than five fears I see no argument for stashing liquidity vs putting in weekly investments.
This is true. I suppose continuing to invest ~$100-150 a week isn't too bad as long I'm stashing up a little more liquid on the side in case the market recedes.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,875
Metro Detroit
Oct 27, 2017
21,545
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
OP
OP
TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
Somewhat hopeful that trend will eventually hit Canada. We've traditionally lagged behind the states in the slide down of management fees and they're still significantly higher (but I mean, still very low if you're going with Vanguard or BlackRock).
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
Probably not enough interest on the wider board to warrant a new thread but Fidelity has just become the first company to offer no-fee index funds, starting with its Total U.S. Market and Total International funds.

Publicly-traded asset management firms like BlackRock are taking a hit today on the expectation the move will pressure them to slash fees as well.

This is a good thing.
giphy.gif
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,677
How does Fidelity intend to make money?

It'd be really cool if this came to Canada, but even then we'd always have witholding tax on US stocks. (Except in RRSPs but only if you hold American ETFs).
 

moblin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,107
Москва
How does Fidelity intend to make money?

It'd be really cool if this came to Canada, but even then we'd always have witholding tax on US stocks. (Except in RRSPs but only if you hold American ETFs).
It was the first question CNBC asked Kathleen Murphy of Fidelity today, and she avoided giving a direct answer. The assumption is that the no-fee funds will be used as a loss-leader to get folks into the Fidelity ecosystem, where other services (including actively-managed funds and financial planning services) will pick up the slack.

I'm a fan. I'm expecting the other big discount brokers (including hopefully Schwab) to respond in kind soon.

It's never been a better time to be an amateur investor. Lots of great options, lots of resources, ever-improving customer service, and a race to the bottom for fees.
 

Darkatomz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
372
CA
Honestly, even if Vanguard has a better and more reputable history and the lowest mutual index fund fees, I would strongly recommend Fidelity in favor for a couple of reasons I don't see mentioned very much (granted, I've had one since I was a child and my current employer uses them also). Why?

Their online UI and tools are really good, period.

Few things are non-intuitive (their customer support is usually great over the phone if needed), and it is a fairly comprehensive and easy way to do research. Their phone app is pretty solid too. Here's a comparison table for reference.
https://www.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/investing-ideas/index-funds
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
Vanguard is excellent and it's where I currently buy taxable funds because I setup the account like 7 years ago. However, by today's standards they're starting to lag the competition in certain respects. For example, Vanguard's website and support is generally considered inferior to other low cost options like Fidelity and Charles Schwab. I think if I were creating a new account today I would rather do business with a different firm.
 

Husker86

Member
Oct 27, 2017
164
Honestly, even if Vanguard has a better and more reputable history and (used to have) the lowest mutual index fund fees, I would strongly recommend Fidelity in favor for a couple of reasons I don't see mentioned very much (granted, I've had one since I was a child and my current employer uses then also). Why?

Their online UI and tools are really good, period.

Few things are non-intuitive (their customer support is usually great over the phone if needed), and it is a fairly comprehensive easy way to do research. Their phone app is pretty solid too. Here's a comparison table for reference.
https://www.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/investing-ideas/index-funds
Yeah, I think they do a really good job with their online tools/apps. And the times I've had to call customer support have all been great experiences.

I've never used Vanguard since I started out with Fidelity and stuck with it, but I haven't had any desire to switch because of the complaints I've heard about their website and app.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,408
Just a reminder that your funds fees are not guaranteed in any way. They can be raised at any time in the future for any reason. Moreover, if you hold the funds in a taxable account, you can't change funds later without paying capital gains tax. All of that is to say, you shouldn't just look at where fees are today. You need to think about whether your trust the fees to stay low for 10, 20, 30 years. This is why it is important to pick a broker you trust and consider whether the business model is sustainable. I worry that some of the brokerages pushing super low fees will end up raising them in a few years once they have a ton of money locked in.

Second, there is a more technically subtle point when comparing fund fees: You also need to consider tracking error. It is entirely possible for the fund with lower fees to actually have a lower net return due to tracking error. Especially when we are talking differences of only a few basis points.
 

Deleted member 4367

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,226
Just a reminder that your funds fees are not guaranteed in any way. They can be raised at any time in the future for any reason. Moreover, if you hold the funds in a taxable account, you can't change funds later without paying capital gains tax. All of that is to say, you shouldn't just look at where fees are today. You need to think about whether your trust the fees to stay low for 10, 20, 30 years. This is why it is important to pick a broker you trust and consider whether the business model is sustainable. I worry that some of the brokerages pushing super low fees will end up raising them in a few years once they have a ton of money locked in.

Second, there is a more technically subtle point when comparing fund fees: You also need to consider tracking error. It is entirely possible for the fund with lower fees to actually have a lower net return due to tracking error. Especially when we are talking differences of only a few basis points.


I mean, Fidelity seems pretty trustworthy as far as brokers go.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
Just a reminder that your funds fees are not guaranteed in any way. They can be raised at any time in the future for any reason. Moreover, if you hold the funds in a taxable account, you can't change funds later without paying capital gains tax. All of that is to say, you shouldn't just look at where fees are today. You need to think about whether your trust the fees to stay low for 10, 20, 30 years. This is why it is important to pick a broker you trust and consider whether the business model is sustainable. I worry that some of the brokerages pushing super low fees will end up raising them in a few years once they have a ton of money locked in.

Second, there is a more technically subtle point when comparing fund fees: You also need to consider tracking error. It is entirely possible for the fund with lower fees to actually have a lower net return due to tracking error. Especially when we are talking differences of only a few basis points.

These are all fair points, however at this point I think low fees for basic index funds are here to stay. It's the new DNA of the financial world and everyone is migrating to it. Firms really can't compete without loss leading index funds. Also, today's basic index fund costs are so low things like tech and support should weigh more heavily when deciding where to invest, and I think that's where Vanguard is lagging.

Strongly agree with your tax advice, which is why I won't sell my Vanguard funds.
 

Daitokuji

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,602
There would be a pretty big backlash if they slashed fees in 2018 with all this fanfare and then later raised them. I have my account at Vanguard and may consider switched to Fidelity at some point in the future but I'll wait a while longer to see how or if Vanguard or the other companies counter.
 

cubanb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,601
Seems like they are going to use this to take on more assets and make money via loaning to shorts
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,408
I mean, Fidelity seems pretty trustworthy as far as brokers go.

They have raised fees on funds in the past. In fact, they added a 5bp surcharge on Vanguard funds just a few months ago.

Fidelity is a for-profit corporation. If they can make a loss leader sustainable by getting customers into their other products, great, but if they can't they will raise fees. Given that Vanguard is a customer-owned company and has more money under management, I think it is healthy to be skeptical about other companies undercutting them on pricing.
 

cubanb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,601
They have raised fees on funds in the past. In fact, they added a 5bp surcharge on Vanguard funds just a few months ago.

Fidelity is a for-profit corporation. If they can make a loss leader sustainable by getting customers into their other products, great, but if they can't they will raise fees. Given that Vanguard is a customer-owned company and has more money under management, I think it is healthy to be skeptical about other companies undercutting them on pricing.
Are they a corporation? I thought they were privately held?
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,408
There would be a pretty big backlash if they slashed fees in 2018 with all this fanfare and then later raised them. I have my account at Vanguard and may consider switched to Fidelity at some point in the future but I'll wait a while longer to see how or if Vanguard or the other companies counter.

Oklahoma slashed taxes with great fanfare to attract businesses. A few years later they are looking to raise taxes to make up budget shortfalls. Yes, there has been backlash, but if you own a business are you going to pay to relocate? Probably not.

On the flip side, Texas pursued the same strategy, and it has seemingly worked out for them. All I'm saying is that we don't know if this is going to be a Texas scenario or an Oklahoma scenario. And it will probably be years before we find out.

Are they a corporation? I thought they were privately held?

Yes and yes. It is the least desirable combination in this case. As a corporation they still have shareholders seeking profit from this new enterprise, but since they are private, they are not bound to the same rules about financial disclosures. This makes it difficult for the public to gauge whether these plans are actually sustainable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
Oklahoma slashed taxes with great fanfare to attract businesses. A few years later they are looking to raise taxes to make up budget shortfalls. Yes, there has been backlash, but if you own a business are you going to pay to relocate? Probably not.

On the flip side, Texas pursued the same strategy, and it has seemingly worked out for them. All I'm saying is that we don't know if this is going to be a Texas scenario or an Oklahoma scenario. And it will probably be years before we find out.

To be fair, Fidelity has been competitive with Vanguard on basic index funds for years, so this isn't exactly new territory for them. Moving from a .04 ER to a .00 ER is a $400 fee difference on 1m assets. Therefore, for me it's not just about fees, but their better tech and support. Another benefit to these funds over Vanguard is there is no deposit minimum.
 

Phonzo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,817
Well, i just opened up a Fidelity Brokerage account (already have Fidelity as my Work 401K), threw in 5K, and bought some Mutual funds by Fidelity. First time im doing something like this, and im not investment savy, so lets see how this goes.
 

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,405
I'm very happy with my Vanguard account, but I might open a Fidelity account to go alongside it. I'm using my Ameritrade less and less, honestly my funds there are pretty much just reinvesting their own dividends at this point.

I opened an account with Robinhood too but m not sure yet if I'll bother to move any funds there or not.
 

Soda

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,873
Dunedin, New Zealand
I'm very happy with my Vanguard account, but I might open a Fidelity account to go alongside it. I'm using my Ameritrade less and less, honestly my funds there are pretty much just reinvesting their own dividends at this point.

I opened an account with Robinhood too but m not sure yet if I'll bother to move any funds there or not.

Why open Fidelity? Just to have your money in two different places?
 

Daitokuji

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,602
Yeah but with your money all it takes is a few clicks to switch companies. Especially if you're in a tax advantaged account since you don't have to worry about capital gains.
 

asdad123

Member
Oct 25, 2017
217
Just because this is kind of one of my things. I want you to be really sure that buying this house is a good financial decision. Is this $2500 all your savings for the month or is it in addition to some other retirement related savings? And again for the 30k, is this designated 'house' money or is it all of your current savings? If this is supposed to be a standard down payment of 20% then this is clearly a million dollar+ home. What percentage of your take home is the mortgage going to be and how does it compare to current rent? Have you accounted for additional costs of home ownership vs. renting in the cost-benefit analysis?

If this is all or a significant portion of your savings have you considered the risk that comes with holding that much of your net worth in a single asset/sector?

Not trying to be a nagger here, I'll assume that you've thought about all this stuff but there are plenty of people that have jumped into home ownership because it's what you're "supposed to do" in life or whatever. Reassure me my friend! It's the biggest purchase of anyone's life and it deserves a thorough think through.


The $2500 monthly is in addition to putting 10% of my and my finances weekly check into 401k. Plus we still put money into our savings accounts, about $1800 monthly total.

We are not looking to rent. We currently live in the second floor of my parents rent free as we redid the apartment so we are going to try to stay here as long as we can to save lol.

The ~30k will be money we receive from our wedding. Not going into our savings at all. We both have 5 months of salary each in our savings accounts at the moment.

As for the 20%, were looking for a home in the 600k range in North Jersey. We should have more than 20% in 4 to 5 years.
 
OP
OP
TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
Ok, cool cool. Going to be quite the leap from rent-free to mortgage eh. Good plan to stay there as long as possible.
I would personally be scared as hell to go into a 600k home, but I limit my search to about 2.5x gross income.

Good luck.
 

reKon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,739
Uh so, I'm guessing that now is the time to stop being lazy and invest now rather than taking nice easy route attacking my student loan debt that's at comfortable 6% variable rate.

I mean it's better than if I was tossing that into my online savings account!

But can we quantify how much of an L I've taken by not investing the $36K+ I've paid towards debt since early 2013 into index funds? My variable rate was low as 4%, but has climbed significantly in past 12+ months. I'd still like to be nearly debt free in 2-3 years and at the very least want a lower principal so that the interest doesn't hurt (I'm paying $167 in interest each month).
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,139
I'm just getting started with this stuff, though I have 30k in my 401k and 0 debt of any kind. Just 10k in savings. Since my work uses Fidelity I think I'll just keep things simple and start there instead of Vanguard.

Tbh I don't really have any financial goals. I just draw and that's all I really care about. But it seems like it would be smart to get this going for if other plans evolve.
 

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,604
Uh so, I'm guessing that now is the time to stop being lazy and invest now rather than taking nice easy route attacking my student loan debt that's at comfortable 6% variable rate.

I mean it's better than if I was tossing that into my online savings account!

But can we quantify how much of an L I've taken by not investing the $36K+ I've paid towards debt since early 2013 into index funds? My variable rate was low as 4%, but has climbed significantly in past 12+ months. I'd still like to be nearly debt free in 2-3 years and at the very least want a lower principal so that the interest doesn't hurt (I'm paying $167 in interest each month).

The market has done really well since 2013. You could do the math but hindsight is 20 20. You're at least paying off debt which is still a return.
 

Haruko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,641
Just got the email from Fidelity about the zero-fee funds and their other recent changes:

Updates regarding account fees, minimums, and expense ratios
As of August 1, 2018, we introduced the following changes, which will be automatically applied to your affected Fidelity accounts:

• Removed account fees and minimums1
• Eliminated domestic money movement fees
• Lowered expense ratios on all Fidelity stock and bond index mutual funds
• Introduced two index mutual funds (FZROX and FZILX) with a zero expense ratio2

No action is required on your part.
If you have questions about these changes, please call an investment professional at 800-343-3548.

1Zero account fees and minimums are available for retail brokerage accounts only.
2As of August 3, 2018 the Fidelity ZERO Total Market Index Fund (FZROX) and Fidelity ZERO International Index Fund (FZILX) are available to individual retail investors who purchase their shares through a Fidelity brokerage account.
 

cubanb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,601
OK. Since a 401k is not about timing the market and is more about getting into the game as early as possible…

…if I have enough liquid savings to pay for several months of expenses, should I front load my contributions next year and hit my 18.5k annual cap in 5 months? I think the max contribution on my Vanguard is 75% of my paycheck.

Maybe that'll mess with my tax withholding in the later months but that would just balance out once I file my returns, right?
Do you have a company match? Is it tied to your contribution (100% match up to 3% of your salary,etc) or fixed? If you do have a match and it is tied to your contribution, check to see if your company does a year end true up. Some companies do, some don't. Mine does not so I would be losing out by front loading since it's calculate on a paycheck by paycheck basis. If the answer is no to any of my questions, go for it. I would front load if I didn't lose out on the free match.
 

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,604
Do you have a company match? Is it tied to your contribution (100% match up to 3% of your salary,etc) or fixed? If you do have a match and it is tied to your contribution, check to see if your company does a year end true up. Some companies do, some don't. Mine does not so I would be losing out by front loading since it's calculate on a paycheck by paycheck basis. If the answer is no to any of my questions, go for it. I would front load if I didn't lose out on the free match.

This is very important. You could lose out on free money.