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My country has mandatory military consription

  • Yes

    Votes: 180 32.5%
  • No

    Votes: 373 67.5%

  • Total voters
    553

Midgarian

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2020
2,619
Midgar
That was WAY before I was ready to come out, before I thought how I felt was valid and I really took it as a way to get rid of those feelings.

Part of my doubts actually were that maybe I just want to be a woman so I can avoid the military. So in my infinite wisdom I jumped right in instead to make that go away.
Thanks for your reply, that makes total sense.

I was worried that my comment would come across offensively so I was questioning whether I should post it all, but you've helped me see your situation from a perspective I hadn't considered.


Since the army was debolished in 1948, Costa Rica has been invaded 0 times, and has never took part on any militar conflict.
We took the former military budget and was redirected towards education and social security.
The benefits have been evident, as Costa Rica is the richest country of Central America and benefits from very solid health systems and a very able bilingual (at least, we are going to trilingual by 2030) workforce.
Now that right there sounds like a civilised country.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,639
Tel Aviv
So, I don't know if this applies to countries with shorter conscriptions - But did serving effect your mental health? Did you become more depressed or suicidal?

I suffered from slight depression and anxiety before, but during my service I was probably in the darkest period of my life and was actively contemplating suicide. I was not alone in this, it seems to be an almost universal thing here for anyone with any mental health issues. Suicide is also currently the leading cause of death for IDF soldiers.
I'm wondering if this is a universal thing from mandatory service or if the unique situation here is making it a lot worse.
 

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
Greek too. I had sight issues with my eye so I went to a commitee and they excepted me from service. Back then I would have served 18 months (land army). Navy it was 21 months,airforce 22.

Though to get to the airforce you needed good connections, because except the first harsh training weeks, conscripts were much better off and could transfer near their home, go to summer resorts and get out anytime they wished. My friend was in the airforce. During summer he went to an officers summer resort club and worked at the restaurant, filling himself with steaks.

So, I don't know if this applies to countries with shorter conscriptions - But did serving effect your mental health? Did you become more depressed or suicidal?

I suffered from slight depression and anxiety before, but during my service I was probably in the darkest period of my life and was actively contemplating suicide. I was not alone in this, it seems to be an almost universal thing here for anyone with any mental health issues. Suicide is also currently the leading cause of death for IDF soldiers.
I'm wondering if this is a universal thing from mandatory service or if the unique situation here is making it a lot worse.

This affected my brother. He had lost weight due to depression and they sent him to a military hospital for treatment. Because they fear for repercussions in case something happens from the parents, they go with aggressive treatment too, forcing him to take pills or they'd extend his service
 
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Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,884
Asia
I suppose that's one way of dealing with the rich. They haven't considered simply taxing the hell out wealthy expats, have they? Can't ever say I approve, but would I have had the audacity (or desire) to refuse were I raised in a country that enforces military service? Hard to say. Just interesting to see a country trying to checkmate defiance. I assume successfully.

Taxes here are very low and they maintain pretty strict laws against bribery, but even more to the point, Singapore is an "intake" country that needs immigration to survive. At the high end, sure, for the finances, but also at the low end. For workers, for the things that keep everything running. So the country has four major cultures to unify - Indian, English, Chinese, Malay - and allowing the rich to dodge won't cut it. I believe they were lax in the past but in the present it's hardcore: there is no easy opt-out within the military age and returning to the country - or transit - can mean trial.

Anyway, it sounds a bit rough but it only applies on citizenship or PR. Obviously on work pass you're not eligible...but also not eligible for things like the local schools. A common expat exit happens if they come for IVF and have twins, because two kids in private school...$$$$$$
 

Bora Horza

Member
Oct 27, 2017
480
Scotland
The Singapore system is quite strict, in part to prevent favoritism and ensure a strong army, but among other reasons also to address the problem of rich expats. The country does not allow dual-citizenship and getting PR for any reason will lock your male children into military service, even if you opt to move away and even if they are only PR as well.

You could get PR, leave before your kid is 10 and still be on the hook for it 8 years later (as far as I understand from reading the PR rules too many times...)

Edit: also as I recall past a certain age they actually ask for a financial deposit for such eligible children to leave the country...

My Brother is Singaporean, left when he was 4 (he is 18 now) and he is still on the hook for it. He needs to get his British citizenship now, I don't think he will ever visit Singapore as he will be arrested at the border (he isn't fussed at all). Thankfully it isn't the sort of crime that you could be deported from the UK for.
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
Since the army was debolished in 1948, Costa Rica has been invaded 0 times, and has never took part on any militar conflict.
We took the former military budget and was redirected towards education and social security.
The benefits have been evident, as Costa Rica is the richest country of Central America and benefits from very solid health systems and a very able bilingual (at least, we are going to trilingual by 2030) workforce.
While I applaud your actions: I can never see that work in Europe. Our males would go crazy with fear for whatever the other male at the other side might come up with ;).

Remember we are the most blood thirsty kind of human out there. Ever since we figured out "clubs and sticks" could harm the guy in the other cave, we have been "at war!". So long was our military tradition that it is insane that the US wants us to spend money in it again, haven't the rest of the world learned their lessons yet? You do not want Europeans to get standing armies, we love our fighting too much!

I joke around a bit here, but really it isn't that far off. To get that through our parliament would be impossible, defense contractors would make sure they'd lobby the politicians, they'd also make sure to frighten the populace into pressuring said politician and ... well let's not even get into the cultural aspects of it all.
 
Dec 31, 2017
1,396
Curious to see how many members here live in a country with mandatory military conscriptionand what their experience is, here in Greece the average experience of a conspirted person in the army is basically adult camp with chores and the occasional weapon training and shooting every couple of months.
I served in ΛΟΚ and was stationed in Cyprus. It was nothing like you describe it.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,826
Well that's good, but still both should be paid more then. As really, 400 smackeroos for putting your life in danger? That is like .... well I guess they can justify it "For your country!/Patriotism!!!" or some other bullshit. So I fully agree with you, you should get full living wages as you are doing full jobs.
I agree, but I don't see that happening. It's actively used to make problems seemingly "disappear" that would be apparent to everybody if they had to pay a normal wage for these vital services.
I remember many times as a paramedic where we had drive the same patient back and forth multiple times, simply because the doctor wasn't ready yet, and there was seemingly no planning or communication between hospitals at times. And in that case it wasn't just about the wasted work by the paramedics, but also the additional stress on the patient.
 
OP
OP
greengr

greengr

Member
Dec 3, 2018
2,712
I served in ΛΟΚ and was stationed in Cyprus. It was nothing like you describe it.

You know as well as me there is a world of difference between ΛΟΚ (basically like special forces) and the common soldier.

Y.Γ. ημουν σε στρατοπεδο που εκπαιδευοταν εφεδροι αξιωματικοι καμια σχεση οτι καναμε εμεις σαν στρατιωτες με τους εφεδρους τα ξερω απο πρωτο χερι
 

R0b1n

Member
Jun 29, 2018
7,787
Taxes here are very low and they maintain pretty strict laws against bribery, but even more to the point, Singapore is an "intake" country that needs immigration to survive. At the high end, sure, for the finances, but also at the low end. For workers, for the things that keep everything running. So the country has four major cultures to unify - Indian, English, Chinese, Malay - and allowing the rich to dodge won't cut it. I believe they were lax in the past but in the present it's hardcore: there is no easy opt-out within the military age and returning to the country - or transit - can mean trial.

Anyway, it sounds a bit rough but it only applies on citizenship or PR. Obviously on work pass you're not eligible...but also not eligible for things like the local schools. A common expat exit happens if they come for IVF and have twins, because two kids in private school...$$$$$$
Yep, I think Singapore once allowed fines for defaulters, now it's jail time only
 

Arcana Wiz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
817
Brazil has it ... but it is pretty hard for you to actually do stuff.
Like you need to go there when you are 18th but the amount of people that goes is MUCH bigger than what they take in
So i never actually knew someone who was forced to serve ... only people who when went to enlist said "i want to serve" so they choose that person

Yep, I was lucky that in my city everyone was automatically dispensed. But I actually knew someone that was called.

We both were freshman in my college, I think he didn't even had time to finish his first semester. Much later I found by someone else that he returned, but never had a single class with him again.

Aside him, Its rare enough that I only heard of someone that a friend knew, or very very distant relatives.
 

viral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,631
Wikipedia has a handy map to show where each country is standing:

It was abolished in 2004 in my country, but my parents used to tell me (jokingly) whenever I misbehaved that I won't last a day in the military like this and my life is going to be hell there. Thankfully I never had to go, but everyone I know says it was just a shitty waste of time.
 
OP
OP
greengr

greengr

Member
Dec 3, 2018
2,712
Btw the wage of a common soldier in Greece when i was in the army was 8,80euro a month(you read that right) i think they have increased it the last year or so.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
I served 15 months as an artillery sergeant at a place near the border with Turkey, when i was 21. My father did 28 months aboard a warship when Greece was a crown republic.
The lessons i have learned about the society and characters of the people that inhabit it was/is extremely valuable although they were appreciated some years after allthough , after the initial training, it was a time spent in boring chores ordered by petty people
But it was not all that bad, i learned to shoot with a number of weapons, i learned to drive, position, arm, and fire a self propelled cannon - the feeling of my first artillery shot will stay with me forever. I try not to think the devastation a successful shell will cause on humans, thank the powers of the universe we are doing only peace time drills.

And this is the biggest lesson i got from my mandatory conscription time. Be armed as a nation, yes, but avoid engaging in armed conflict and war with every possible cost.
 

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
13,726
Earth
I'm convinced there are two Taiwan militaries. There's the summer camp/check the box version where you have the strawberry kids show up and do gym and don't really bother with things like standing up straight (or even facing in the same fucking direction), extended marching, or any of that other shit that an actual military does. Then there's an actual volunteer military where there's people who know how to fight and run and will train outside when the temperature is above 90/32. I base this on seeing my nephew's mustering class where they looked like a painting of chaos. The DI had clearly been herding cats for 4 months, because he wouldn't even fucking look at them. My father in law was in tears. But, I've also worked with and seen the actual, deployed folks, and it's goddamn night and day.

Probabely, and the most competent and strongest people seem to be the aboriginal people.
Most of the other one you s ay, they mainly learn ho to use specific tool to clean and cut grass
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
I agree, but I don't see that happening. It's actively used to make problems seemingly "disappear" that would be apparent to everybody if they had to pay a normal wage for these vital services.
I remember many times as a paramedic where we had drive the same patient back and forth multiple times, simply because the doctor wasn't ready yet, and there was seemingly no planning or communication between hospitals at times. And in that case it wasn't just about the wasted work by the paramedics, but also the additional stress on the patient.
Wow really? That also must cost more as those vehicles aren't free either. Let alone the stress caused as you said. And no political party brings this up at all?
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,826
Wow really? That also must cost more as those vehicles aren't free either. Let alone the stress caused as you said. And no political party brings this up at all?
As I said, there was a referendum, and people decided they want to stick to this system. Afraid how anything will work without the free labour, etc.
And so right now the left doesn't really want to touch this subject, and parties right of center are generally against change, so yeah, don't see this getting resolved anytime soon.
 

zswordsman

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,771
I reported for conscription to South Korea. Rec'd an exemption. I tried?
I hear they have it rough, the regular ROK Army guys I mean. The KATUSA's have it a bit easier. Well at least that's what we're told when stationed in SK.

Those KATUSA's are world class shammers for real. Only ever saw them at the DFAC or on the bus ride to get off post lol
 

Facism

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,923
Turkish here. We have a system where you can pay money to only go to military for 3 weeks, instead of 6 months (12 if you don't have a bachelor's degree). Thankfully my small heart problem made me unfit for military service so I didn't have to deal with that bullshit.

When i was 18 and visiting family in The Turkish Republic of North Cyprus, they almost conscripted me at the airport. They had a maximum stay in the country and i was over it. Despite being a British Citizen, i had assumed TRNC citizenship because of my parents being born their and surviving the massacres and displacement, so was fair game lol. Uncle had to bribe them to forget about it.
 
OP
OP
greengr

greengr

Member
Dec 3, 2018
2,712
When i was 18 and visiting family in The Turkish Republic of North Cyprus, they almost conscripted me at the airport. They had a maximum stay in the country and i was over it. Despite being a British Citizen, i had assumed TRNC citizenship because of my parents being born their and surviving the massacres and displacement, so was fair game lol. Uncle had to bribe them to forget about it.
There is no "Turkish Republic of North Cyprus" literally the only country that recognizes that it is Turkey and i am not writing that cause i am a greek, i am just stating facts.
 
Dec 24, 2017
2,399
I hear they have it rough, the regular ROK Army guys I mean. The KATUSA's have it a bit easier. Well at least that's what we're told when stationed in SK.

Those KATUSA's are world class shammers for real. Only ever saw them at the DFAC or on the bus ride to get off post lol

I'm glad I got the exemption. There are pets of my family with a tradition of being in the ROKMC. There would have been an insane amount of pressure to do that if I was eligible. And 19 year old me would have probably caved. I don't need that in my life.
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
Well that's fair. I suppose it is overly idealistic to associate an entire nation (albeit one that is objectively better than most >>winky face<<) with a single characteristic. At the end of the day, we're all stuck in the middle of lumps of issues.

Regarding the appearance 'cool-headed pragmatism', I must insist! I associate Italians with pasta. The French with inconsolability. The Irish with potatoes. Germans with ... German Efficiency! And Belgium is basically just an insurrection that has somehow become a nation-state. Please don't take the image of some pragmatic, democratic utopia many of us have conjured up away from me! At the very least, smirk coyly as you look down on the rest of us -- you don't have to say anything. It's what gives me hope in life.

Yep, we have a few diehard supremacists where I'm from as well. A constant reminder that we're not so different, you and I! On a serious note, Nordic countries usually rank at the very top by most metrics (for example: happiness!). I think it's something worth having some pride in. You're doing something right.
The latter rankings are often very personal and not very objective. Not saying it isn't a good place to live, but I always find it funny how much propaganda those rankings are. Rather than to look at such rankings, it is best to look at it at a per case basis. For instance medical can be quantified in a more measurable way, by child mortality, average lifespan, obesity, etc.

Happiness I always found "funny" considering how often our trains are late due to someone throwing themselves in front of them as nobody reached out to them when they were visibly suffering and alone. Funny in a very dark way, as people always blame teh lack of sunlight and the dark months as the culprit. Never society of the state (well not true, some do).

Rather than to see it as a multiplier for existing problems (the lack of sunlight just makes it worse), the ignoring of mental issues or loneliness by say the state, the stigma that stlll to this day rests on mental health issues, a society that seems more entwined with ownership of that new Tesla than how your neighbour is doing and a failure of that same society to see that as ("keep to yourself", "not my problem", is really a big issue here), a "Janteloven" (Jante's law) thinking that turned from self deprecation into hatred of the other ("DOn't you think you're better than me!" and which no actively stigmatizes mental issues)... it all comes together into a high suicide rate... which then explodes during the winter months.
 

Deleted member 28564

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,604
The latter rankings are often very personal and not very objective. Not saying it isn't a good place to live, but I always find it funny how much propaganda those rankings are. Rather than to look at such rankings, it is best to look at it at a per case basis. For instance medical can be quantified in a more measurable way, by child mortality, average lifespan, obesity, etc.

Happiness I always found "funny" considering how often our trains are late due to someone throwing themselves in front of them as nobody reached out to them when they were visibly suffering and alone. Funny in a very dark way, as people always blame teh lack of sunlight and the dark months as the culprit. Never society of the state (well not true, some do).

Rather than to see it as a multiplier for existing problems (the lack of sunlight just makes it worse), the ignoring of mental issues or loneliness by say the state, the stigma that stlll to this day rests on mental health issues, a society that seems more entwined with ownership of that new Tesla than how your neighbour is doing and a failure of that same society to see that as ("keep to yourself", "not my problem", is really a big issue here), a "Janteloven" (Jante's law) thinking that turned from self deprecation into hatred of the other ("DOn't you think you're better than me!" and which no actively stigmatizes mental issues)... it all comes together into a high suicide rate... which then explodes during the winter months.
I can't argue with taking an objective approach. And it's perfectly fair to call these lists at least partially subjective, since the criteria by which these lists rank countries are not entirely scientific in nature, but dependent on the rankers' perception of what most closely resembles the correct state. On that note, however, they do mostly base their rankings off some, perhaps rough, objective quantification. For instance, regarding one such list ranking quality of life:
Beyond the essential ideas of broad access to food and housing, to quality education and health care, to employment that will sustain us, quality of life may also include intangibles such as job security, political stability, individual freedom and environmental quality.
I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to scrutinise their choice of grading criteria, but I wouldn't consider it poorly thought out. I would, personally, also refrain from equating it (the intent, process, effect, data) with propaganda, unless I can clearly identify some bias. For instance, the QoL list quoted above resulted from a partnership between BAV Group and Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, neither of which I could reliably accuse of any sort of bias, knowing the results. Furthermore, I haven't seen major discrepancies when comparing different QoL lists created by other universities, groups or partnerships. Some level of reputability can therefore be assigned to their efforts. Which does not by any means discredit any criticism to its perceived accuracy, but may serve as a rebuttal against assumptions of inherent bias.

As to the overall point you're making (that a nation's fictitious image is often used in order to obscure the more repellent, distressing realities of life, which are nonetheless undeniably present and symptomatic of ignored problems), I absolutely agree. Governments and the citizenry alike, sometimes unconsciously, invest great effort in perpetuating the misleading image (and an atmosphere decrying dissent of thought -- again, sometime unconsciously) originally created to distort reality.

So if, in this post or a previous post, I'm devaluing your experience or greater appreciation for this topic, it's unintentional. I just wanted to make the point that, relative to the rest, some countries tend to perform more competently when attempting to resolve issues facing it. Then again, I cannot speak unequivocally.
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
I can't argue with taking an objective approach. And it's perfectly fair to call these lists at least partially subjective, since the criteria by which these lists rank countries are not entirely scientific in nature, but dependent on the rankers' perception of what most closely resembles the correct state. On that note, however, they do mostly base their rankings off some, perhaps rough, objective quantification. For instance, regarding one such list ranking quality of life:

I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to scrutinise their choice of grading criteria, but I wouldn't consider it poorly thought out. I would, personally, also refrain from equating it (the intent, process, effect, data) with propaganda, unless I can clearly identify some bias. For instance, the QoL list quoted above resulted from a partnership between BAV Group and Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, neither of which I could reliably accuse of any sort of bias, knowing the results. Furthermore, I haven't seen major discrepancies when comparing different QoL lists created by other universities, groups or partnerships. Some level of reputability can therefore be assigned to their efforts. Which does not by any means discredit any criticism to its perceived accuracy, but may serve as a rebuttal against assumptions of inherent bias.

As to the overall point you're making (that a nation's fictitious image is often used in order to obscure the more repellent, distressing realities of life, which are nonetheless undeniably present and symptomatic of ignored problems), I absolutely agree. Governments and the citizenry alike, sometimes unconsciously, invest great effort in perpetuating the misleading image (and an atmosphere decrying dissent of thought -- again, sometime unconsciously) originally created to distort reality.

So if, in this post or a previous post, I'm devaluing your experience or greater appreciation for this topic, it's unintentional. I just wanted to make the point that, relative to the rest, some countries tend to perform more competently when attempting to resolve issues facing it. Then again, I cannot speak unequivocally.
I just think we need tos top looking blindly at "Happiness" lists as really that is not objective and all it does is feed into Euro egos and propaganda.

If you have lists like this it needs to be on a per subject basis, that can't be simplified to a quick list let alone a quick headline. But that's just it, people want that quick headline of "Norway happiest place in the world again!".

You simply cannot quantify this stuff in one list, it has to be separate per topic. So mental health is a separate list from physical. You cannot just equate the two. Let alone: Housing, Work Hours, Vacation days, etc, etc ,etc..

In these happiness lists you see the main issue with Internet culture regarding having everything in a clickable headline. The research done in these lists is extensive, and these reports thousands of pages. If you wish to study them you need to do some work to plow through it all. As right now it becomes too simplified and really that QOL stuff is bullshit if you just happen to be in the part where scoring is really low. For instance: Israel usually comes up okayish in these lists. But if you're an Arabic Israeli or even worse a Palestinian.. then really we can say you're not that happy or healthy.


All these lists do is show scoring in areas that can be games for maximum stand outs (same with these top 100 university lists), when really these things should be approached at a per area basis. An most research bureaus/universities actually do this, but then you get a large stack of papers back that people simply are not willing to read.

They just want "Finland number 2 in happiest people! NORWAY NUMBER 1" and go on with their lives.