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Squarehard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,840
So this is something that I've always thought about if Era would ever be able to implement such a thing.

If we've learned anything from the recent issues involving the approaches and methods moderation takes with certain issues, and in particular, certain users, it does feel as if there needs to be some sort of system in place that isn't just solely based on a moderation staff's discretion in being the only determinant of specific issues, but a way to mediate those decisions possibly that doesn't place the entire oneness just on the moderators or admins.

In order to mitigate the pressures, my suggestion is to introduce a specific appeals panel, that is not made up of any staff from the moderation team, but would instead be a group of members (anywhere from 20-30?) that would only deal with appeals of bans.

The way the system will work is not that these appeals staff will now have to know all of the ins and outs of the moderation system, but they will provide the moderation team their opinions on a ban that has occurred, whether fairly or unfairly, and let's say, each appeal will have 3 members from the appeal staff to provide their insight on the ban, and send it to the moderation team to then determine on whether or not they overstepped, or whether or not the ban was justified. Rather than reversing the ban, the user will be unbanned, and the moderation team will then get to see exactly what the panel thought about their decisions, and they can use that instance to learn from it the next time, and understand how to improve, rather than that they were wrong.

Each time an appeal gets sent, another 3 member panel will be assigned to that case. And the pool of members will just change, let's say every couple of months or so.

We could take this further, and give the appeal members full power to overturn a ban, and as long as 2 of the 3 members who responded makes that determination to overturn, then it will be overturned. However, if we were to assume this part of the process, then the appeals staff may actually will need to be a bit more up on their policies of the site, rather than just being a more objective contributor to the final decision, since they were in essence just be a secondary moderation staff, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bad thing either to not have everything only fall on the moderators.

Obviously, just throwing ideas out there, but I am curious of what others think about implementing some sort of a Appeals system that isn't just in the hands of moderation, but more people from the community can still play an active role in these determinations. Of course, the process of determining who will be on the panel will still have to be worked out with how to choose those members, what qualifies, and what not, but it could be a step forward in changing the way we approach moderation here.

Curious as to everybody's thoughts on this, or possibly a similar system that can be put into place on this topic.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
I think there is an appeal process currently because I either did it or was going to do it can't remember. But I think having an outside panel is a good idea but might be difficult to implement.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
The problem with an appeals process here is the same as it is anywhere else: 90% of infractions are entirely valid and allowing anyone to appeal them is a waste of the staff's time and energy. Figuring out how to deal with the 10% that are actually questionable is the issue at hand.
 

Dio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,097
i don't disagree that given the recent issues, something needs to happen...but with your example, finding mods for forums so big is already difficult. how would one find these 20-30 members to do so, how would they even be selected, etc.
The problem with an appeals process here is the same as it is anywhere else: 90% of infractions are entirely valid and allowing anyone to appeal them is a waste of the staff's time and energy. Figuring out how to deal with the 10% that are actually questionable is the issue at hand.
also this
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
And the pool of members will just change, let's say every couple of months or so.

I agree with everything else cept this. Having the pool change means that staff are required to consistently onboard people and explain how to effectively determine if a ban is warranted. There needs to be a panel of people who are dedicated to doing this, following guidelines that have been created by staff and other members to a T.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,301
New York
The problem with moderation on this sight is occurring way before the relevancy of any appeals process. We have folks getting banned for no good reason and people blatantly breaking the forum rules but allowed to continue posting. The reporting feature seems more like a suggestion box.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,553
Can confirm there is an appeal process of sorts in place.

I would not be here posting without it (and at least a few people on staff who believed in me enough to allow me to come back)
 

Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
The problem with an appeals process here is the same as it is anywhere else: 90% of infractions are entirely valid and allowing anyone to appeal them is a waste of the staff's time and energy. Figuring out how to deal with the 10% that are actually questionable is the issue at hand.
Maybe you can only appeal if enough unbanned users from the site the use the report button on the post responsible for the ban to question the ban? Quick way of cutting out vast majority of appeals.

edit: and maybe apply a cooldown of sorts of how many times you can dispute an individual users ban based on the last time you disputed that person being banned as to mitigate potential abuse of the function
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
All of these systems with multiple steps, people checking and elevating results, panels and votes and commissions, etc, end up clogging and failing. You will find clicks and biases. The current system work most of the time, might as well keep until the wheels fall off.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
I've love a jury for bans, that sounds like a great feature.
Can confirm there is an appeal process of sorts in place.

I would not be here posting without it (and at least a few people on staff who believed in me enough to allow me to come back)
I mean this isn't the same by a long shot literally not even close.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
Reset era needs to change the way it engages with the community. There are too many times stuff isnt communicated properly if at all. Im not sure rotating councils is the answer to everything, but there should be a full reasoning and you should see all the mods who vote on it. As well mods should acknowledge your existence, being able to send a message and not get anything back for over two weeks is complete bullshit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,398
This would be incredibly difficult to implement:

  • Firstly, we do not have access to the information the mods do. I assume they use other channels of communication and some sort of repository of past user infractions. The panels would need access to this, but that can be sensitive information, including PMs and such. In essense we would have to trust the panel more than the moderators.
  • How is the group of users selected for these panels? Any process not based on being random would be suspect, and if it is random then we run into problems associated with the above point, in that they could have access to sensitive information.
  • It introduces this complexity and potential cost for a small minority of cases. I am a mod on a good-sized subreddit, and have also modded other forums. The vast majority of bans and warnings are justified because they are for obvious infractions. The issues these appeals would be used for would be more sensitive and political in nature (and are important), but comprise a small minority of cases. But the process would have to be open for all bans, which would lead to potentially hundreds of appeals (or thousands) per month.

I like the idea of improving the way that mods operate, but I think that a better way to hold mods to account is to simply have a "term limit" of sorts after which they rotate out, allowing for a stream of fresh opinions. Not too short so that there is instability or that it is hard to on-board them, but maybe a year/two or so. It's not fun being a mod, and anyone who really enjoys it probably craves the power more than anything. Limiting the amount of time they can wield that power is a better safeguard than allowing complex and random oversight. If anything, an appeals system could be set up for the reporting of mod decisions to a higher group of senior mods/admins.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,841
Yes I agree. I've been banned multiple times for a misunderstanding. Part of that is on me obviously but I'm not exactly a professional writer so I sometimes have trouble articulating my thoughts clearly. No clue how you would fairly implement it though.
 

DrewFu

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Apr 19, 2018
10,360
IMO, there should be a way to explain yourself and the situation before a ban is actually made. Like, if you're currently banned/suspended, you should still be able to PM mods and explain yourself.

Obviously there are cases where a poster needs to be banned, no questions asked, but most of the time, there should be some communication.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,553
I've love a jury for bans, that sounds like a great feature.

I mean this isn't the same by a long shot literally not even close.

I apologize if what I posted sounded dismissive. I did not mean it in that way at all.

I'm saying there is something and it can be built upon. There should be more transparency instead of just filling out a form and waiting for a reply back.

Goes back to meta commentary and how much of that is allowed or not allowed or what the stance is and if that stance is changing a bit. Right now the whole zero tolerance on it (before this major incident) wasn't really working too well for many people.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,998
NYC
When I was banned, I appealed through Contact Us and received a very thoughtfully put together post that helped me learn about why I was being insensitive to a marginalized community.

It was a growing experience, and it worked well.
 

DrewFu

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Apr 19, 2018
10,360
When I was banned, I appealed through Contact Us and received a very thoughtfully put together post that helped me learn about why I was being insensitive to a marginalized community.

It was a growing experience, and it worked well.
OK, but it seems like your could have learned that without being banned. I love Era, but the ban hammer seemed to be used far too liberally.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,685
here
The problem with an appeals process here is the same as it is anywhere else: 90% of infractions are entirely valid and allowing anyone to appeal them is a waste of the staff's time and energy. Figuring out how to deal with the 10% that are actually questionable is the issue at hand.
I'm wondering if they could have the option for a ban to be appealable or not at the time of the banning, like where they choose "banned with the option to appeal" or "banned without the option to appeal"

this would only be a small step from what it is now, though, as it still leaves the possibility for questionable bans

but it would solidify the obvious bans away from an appeal
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,841
When I was banned, I appealed through Contact Us and received a very thoughtfully put together post that helped me learn about why I was being insensitive to a marginalized community.

It was a growing experience, and it worked well.
Wouldn't it be better to get some sort of notification that your post was reported for being insensitive so you know in real time you are hurting people's feelings.
 

DrewFu

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Apr 19, 2018
10,360
I'm wondering if they could have the option for a ban to be appealable or not at the time of the banning, like where they choose "banned with the option to appeal" or "banned without the option to appeal"

this would only be a small step from what it is now, though, as it still leaves the possibility for questionable bans

but it would solidify the obvious bans away from an appeal
There should always be a way to quickly get in touch with mods/admin after a ban to explain yourself, as long as it's not a blatantly deserved perma.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,186
As long as it doesn't create some tier of forum celebrity users that, because of popularity, become borderline unbannable because of guaranteed appeal support or whatever.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,417
It is probably less exhausting and more useful to have a discussion (whether it's a panel or otherwise) about broader ban issues, than go essentially one by one on every ban.

There is definitely a disconnect between what the community, and a small handful of people in a moderator "water cooler room,' think about community standards. I think some coming together on those issues would satisfy a lot of people and, make everyone involved happier.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,482
A mountain in the US
I used to do account appeals for a financial company. What a nightmare. Most closures were legitimate, and most people who fought them were laundering money or commiting fraud.

I think having some sort of additional oversight is a good idea, but appeals will just be used by anyone who gets a ban. If people are willing to spend the time sifting through, then I guess I don't have an issue, though.
As long as it doesn't create some tier of forum celebrity users that, because of popularity, become borderline unbannable because of guaranteed appeal support or whatever.
I see what you're hinting at. Don't worry, signal, I'll fight for you.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,685
here
There should always be a way to quickly get in touch with mods/admin after a ban to explain yourself, as long as it's not a blatantly deserved perma.
I meant by an official appeal process.

I imagine the 'contact us' option only really goes in front of the eyes of one Mod normally, allowing for a response

but with an appeal process I imagine a few mods discussing/reconsidering a ban

the 'contact us' option would still be available to communicate with Era mods in general, if the need be
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,247
As long as it doesn't create some tier of forum celebrity users that, because of popularity, become borderline unbannable because of guaranteed appeal support or whateber.

You know this is exactly what will happen. Nobody is going to care if "user x" get's banned and they'll never get their case heard. If this panel is going to hear every ban or at least every appeal of people who think they've been unjustly banned they'll have to quit their day job.

Most of the time people get banned for valid reasons.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
The problem with an appeals process here is the same as it is anywhere else: 90% of infractions are entirely valid and allowing anyone to appeal them is a waste of the staff's time and energy. Figuring out how to deal with the 10% that are actually questionable is the issue at hand.

Would it not be better then to let members actually discuss bans in a thread were someone gets banned, rather than forbid it as a general policy. That way those undeserving of a ban actually get the most attention rather than bad faith shit posters.

Cus previously if someone is banned and the vast majority of people think it was unjust, any sort of discussion of someone being banned unfairly usually leads to threats of further bans if anyone questions it again.

I got banned for a day for stating that 4chan were literally "Reeeing" about some announcement I can't remember now. I wasn't attempting to hurt or offend anyone.

Also are they going to unban Brock?

If you're being sarcastic you should put "/s" in your post as it's not always easy to infer intention from text. I genuinely thought you were being serious for a second.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
I apologize if what I posted sounded dismissive. I did not mean it in that way at all.

I'm saying there is something and it can be built upon. There should be more transparency instead of just filling out a form and waiting for a reply back.

Goes back to meta commentary and how much of that is allowed or not allowed or what the stance is and if that stance is changing a bit. Right now the whole zero tolerance on it (before this major incident) wasn't really working too well for many people.

I mean why can't we just talk about meta stuff in a hidden subforum, which doesn't get shown to juniors, nor does it show on the site signed out.
 

Dio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,097
The statement was to describe what they were literally saying not as a description of their actions. I never meant to use it like that. Could gotten a warning instead of a flatout ban.
gotta make it more clear next time. it wasn't clear at all, even with your retelling.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,186
You know this is exactly what will happen. Nobody is going to care if "user x" get's banned and they'll never get their case heard. If this panel is going to hear every ban or at least every appeal of people who think they've been unjustly banned they'll have to quit their day job.

Most of the time people get banned for valid reasons.
Could or couldn't depending on implementation I guess. When I saw JaeCryo's initial post I thought so, but with the edit idea (or something like it) that might prevent it:

Maybe you can only appeal if enough unbanned users from the site the use the report button on the post responsible for the ban to question the ban? Quick way of cutting out vast majority of appeals.

edit: and maybe apply a cooldown of sorts of how many times you can dispute an individual users ban based on the last time you disputed that person being banned as to mitigate potential abuse of the function

I see what you're hinting at. Don't worry, signal, I'll fight for you.

lol ✊
 

DrewFu

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Apr 19, 2018
10,360
I meant by an official appeal process.

I imagine the 'contact us' option only really goes in front of the eyes of one Mod normally, allowing for a response

but with an appeal process I imagine a few mods discussing/reconsidering a ban

the 'contact us' option would still be available to communicate with Era mods in general, if the need be
That over-complicates the situation. If a mod wants to suspend you, they should either discuss the infraction with your first, or there should be a "contact staff" button to explain the situation. There doesn't need to be some secretive appeals panel or review board. Most banning I've seen (and even received) could have been dealt with by a simple discussion.

Instead it's, oh you're banned for 2 weeks, tough shit.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
I dunno feels like some of the mods that are on don't ever stop rule breaking threads and actually have participated in them a couple of times.
 

Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
Not a bad idea.

I tried PMing a mod captain to try having a friend unbanned and didn't even get an answer. He wanted to get in touch with someone, but being banned it was impossible for him so he asked me to help. I would understand a refusal of course, but no answer at all felt disrespectful.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,553
I mean why can't we just talk about meta stuff in a hidden subforum, which doesn't get shown to juniors, nor does it show on the site signed out.

There definitely should be more input from the community. In the past 24 hours we've seen three bans reversed and probably should be at least two more that are and that is mostly due to the community rallying together.

As already stated here, most disputes are going to be mundane things that are obviously problematic. The few cases recently are very high profile but I feel like the vast majority of the time the staff here does a wonderful job sorting things out.

I'm not sure of how to incorporate community involvement while keeping things transparent but not getting bogged down and requiring 20 people to meet and discuss to ban one person for obviously inflammatory comments. There has to be a line somewhere between the obvious easy cases and the ones that a more wide net needs to be cast for input. Mods, as good as they are, cannot be everywhere in every thread. They rely on the report button and rely on people speaking up. What has happened with TransERA lately cannot happen again. It has been a while they have been vocalizing concerns and it fell on dear ears.

And that isn't even getting into the issue of the heavy burden that comes with being in a position of power here from outside forces.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
There definitely should be more input from the community. In the past 24 hours we've seen three bans reversed and probably should be at least two more that are and that is mostly due to the community rallying together.

As already stated here, most disputes are going to be mundane things that are obviously problematic. The few cases recently are very high profile but I feel like the vast majority of the time the staff here does a wonderful job sorting things out.

I'm not sure of how to incorporate community involvement while keeping things transparent but not getting bogged down and requiring 20 people to meet and discuss to ban one person for obviously inflammatory comments. There has to be a line somewhere between the obvious easy cases and the ones that a more wide net needs to be cast for input. Mods, as good as they are, cannot be everywhere in every thread. They rely on the report button and rely on people speaking up. What has happened with TransERA lately cannot happen again. It has been a while they have been vocalizing concerns and it fell on dear ears.

And that isn't even getting into the issue of the heavy burden that comes with being in a position of power here from outside forces.
I mean that's why this would be appeals, not a mod position. So like a jury you're only needed to approve bans or stuff like that. I'd assume OP means nobody in these positions has power, nor actually shows a title for their position to legitimately negate any real grab being in a position like this is. Then really all it needs is a appeal log that we can all see.

TransERA didn't deserve what happened to them and it really shows how bad the current system can get if left unattended.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
Reee is ableist. intention isn't really relevant.

Surely in some cases intention should be relevant, words and images have different interpretations around the world. To be "reeee" was always just someone getting angry, this is the first time I ever heard of it being ableist. I can give you a real world example of how something might have multiple interpretations and therefore different intentions behind its use:


EDIT: THIS AUTOPLAYS A VIDEO SO THAT MIGHT BE AWKWARD IN PUBLIC
 
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Middleman

Banned
Jun 14, 2019
928
I'm not really down with this. I don't want my fate being decided by a random pool of members given the pile-ons people get subjected to when they express points of view contrary to the prevailing consensus.

I think the mods occasionally make mistakes but by and large do a pretty good job.
 
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