• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,359
São Paulo - Brazil
This last few weeks I've been replaying the Baldur's Gate games. The first one is ok, but Baldur's Gate 2 is the true masterpiece of rarely matched greatness. And it is my understanding that Dragon Age was meant to be a sort of spiritual sequel to that, and indeed, you can see that in the game. But only in intent, not in execution.

When I compare BG2 and Origins side by side, even considering all the years between the two, all I can see is how the latter is inferior to the former. I'm aware the first Dragon Age is considered quite a good RPG, and it I would agree it isn't a bad one, it's just nothing special. Take the combat, for example (not to say gameplay). I have my reservations about BG's combat but it was definitely fun (most of the times), and engaging. In Origins? Meh, it felt like a chore.

But I think the main disapppointment for me when it comes to the DA universe (and this takes into consideration the sequels, even if Origins is the worst of the bunch), is how uninspired it is. BG had the advantage of being based on a well stablished universe, yet DA had years and years of experience from Bioware that could have been directed into a interesting and unique universe. But that's not what we saw. To try to make my point a bit more clear, let me bring Mass Effect to the discussion, and this picture in particular:

BioWare-Reveals-Weapon-Creation-Process-for-Mass-Effect-and-Dragon-Age-433761-2.jpg


Now if we made a game that asked which race (or faction) which one of these weapons belong to, most Mass Effect fans would be able to guess. There is an identity behind each weapons, because the universe itself has an identity. Something that Dragon Age never accomplished.

Lastly, I need to talk about silence protagonist. I know a lot of people are a fan of that, even if only because it makes it easier to deceive yourself in beliving that the main character meant to say something in the way you wanted them to, rather than in the (only) way the game recognizes it, but for Dragon Age: Origins in particular it feels the game was caught between when its ok to have a mute proganist (KoTOR) and when it is not (Mass Effect). And the game suffers for it. It's like it can't make its own mind, and that indecision is also present in DA2 and Inquisition, even if for different reasons.

Anyway, we might see DA4 in the far future, even if I believe it's far from certain, and I'm afraid I have no reasons to believe it won't be more of the same. A universe that can't find its own identity and just tries to be a by the number fantasy world.
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
That's good to hear, I couldn't get into DA:O and I've been thinking of trying out BG sometime
 

Lord Vatek

Avenger
Jan 18, 2018
21,518
Lastly, I need to talk about silence protagonist. I know a lot of people are a fan of that, even if only because it makes it easier to deceive yourself in beliving that the main character meant to say something in the way you wanted them to, rather than in the (only) way the game recognizes it, but for Dragon Age: Origins in particular it feels the game was caught between when its ok to have a mute proganist (KoTOR) and when it is not (Mass Effect). And the game suffers for it. It's like it can't make its own mind, and that indecision is also present in DA2 and Inquisition, even if for different reasons.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. DA:O's silent protagonist is identical in execution to KotOR.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
I remember when I was seeing early stuff about Dragon Age I was thinking, you're making your own original fantasy setting and can make it anything you want to, and you still decided on humans/elves/dwarves, fighter/rogue/mage?
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,050
I never really liked DAO, it pretty much failed at living up to all the things that made BG2 great. Bad itemization, horrible encounter design, bad dungeons. Every encounter felt the same, and don't let me get started on the Derp Roads. I guess it was popular because it was the first "big" party based RPG on console with AAA production values.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,978
I remember when I was seeing early stuff about Dragon Age I was thinking, you're making your own original fantasy setting and can make it anything you want to, and you still decided on humans/elves/dwarves, fighter/rogue/mage?
God damn, Mass Effect Andromeda disappointed me SO MUCH for this. I remember the moment my interest in ME:A faded, and it's when I found out that both new alien species were bipedal humanoids with two eyes, a nose, lips with which to speak human language, etc. I get it, but I sure don't like it.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
I never really liked DAO, it pretty much failed at living up to all the things that made BG2 great. Bad itemization, horrible encounter design, bad dungeons. I guess it was popular because it was the first "big" party based RPG on console with AAA production values.
Neither of Bioware two big modern rpgs got itemization right.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,230
The Dragon Age setting went from 'some fantasy world a couple of games I like are set in' to 'one of my all-time favourite fantasy settings' with Inquisition and its DLC.

I fully agree that Thedas was, on the face of it at least, bland as hell in Origins--but they more than remedied that in the later games, thankfully. I genuinely can't wait for The Dread Wolf Rises, in large part because I'm really excited to see how they follow through on all the Massive Lore Revelations from Inquisition. And that's all in spite of the fact that I had major issues with Inquisition as an actual game.
 

Bobcat Fancy

Member
Jul 21, 2019
192
Never got into Baldur's Gate because I am totally paralyzed every time I try to create a character. Some day!

My fav DA is DA2. (yes!!) I actually think that has a pretty "clearly defined" generic protagonist - they're somewhere between a kind of staid/slightly deranged AAA hero, depending on how you play them. Personally, I love hot (Hawke can be v. hot with the default design and a good character creator) AAA protagonists, and this one can be queer. Hawke is pretty much exactly what I want out of big budget video games and I value the one time I will get it! DAI's protagonists are voiced, but a lot less specific and sometimes seem oddly ignorant of the world they inhabit. (bc they could have diverse backgrounds and the world needs to be explained to unfamiliar players)
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,230
Never got into Baldur's Gate because I am totally paralyzed every time I try to create a character. Some day!

My fav DA is DA2. (yes!!) I actually think that has a pretty "clearly defined" generic protagonist - they're somewhere between a kind of staid/slightly deranged AAA hero, depending on how you play them. Personally, I love hot (Hawke can be v. hot with the default design and a good character creator) AAA protagonists, and this one can be queer. Hawke is pretty much exactly what I want out of big budget video games and I value the one time I will get it! DAI's protagonists are voiced, but a lot less specific and sometimes seem oddly ignorant of the world they inhabit. (bc they could have diverse backgrounds and the world needs to be explained to unfamiliar players)
Hawke's the fuckin best, and DA2's dialogue system is still the best voiced-protagonist-based dialogue system I've experienced in any game. I wish Inquisition had just used it again.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
Hawke's the fuckin best, and DA2's dialogue system is still the best voiced-protagonist-based dialogue system I've experienced in any game. I wish Inquisition had just used it again.
Alpha Protocol has the best because it allows for dialogue to flow like a real conversation.
 

NeoBob688

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,639
I don't agree about the universe at all. The lore in Dragon Age Origins is fantastic. The codex is one of the best ever.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,230
Alpha Protocol has the best because it allows for dialogue to flow like a real conversation.
I like Alpha Protocol's dialogue system a lot, and it suits what they were going for with that game well - 'chameleon/potentially somewhat deranged superspy manipulates people through conversation' - but I didn't think it was as good as DA2's system for actual character-driven roleplaying.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Not in itself. In DA:O? I'd argue it was a problem. Like it was in Far Cry 5. Those were games that felt like not being voiced was a limitation rather than a choice.
I can't comment on FC5 as I didn't play it, but in my opinion having a voiced protagonist is pretty much always more of a limitation than a silent protagonist is.

A voiced protagonist forces the recording of lines, which balloons the budget, which normally results in less actual choices for dialogue, and less variation because each variation increases the costs involved so much.

Games with voiced protagonist choices that do it well often have to resort to limiting the scope of the protagonist's backstory in some way shape or form, and thus also limit the actual characterization.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
I can't comment on FC5 as I didn't play it, but in my opinion having a voiced protagonist is pretty much always more of a limitation than a silent protagonist is.

A voiced protagonist forces the recording of lines, which balloons the budget, which normally results in less actual choices for dialogue, and less variation because each variation increases the costs involved so much.

Games with voiced protagonist choices that do it well often have to resort to limiting the scope of the protagonist's backstory in some way shape or form, and thus also limit the actual characterization.
I never played the later Dragon Ages but I remember thinking how limited dialogue options were for Mass Effect 2 vs DAO.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,116
Origins somehow felt more generic fantasy than d&d despite being a new IP with a few original ideas. I don't know how they pulled it off.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,359
São Paulo - Brazil
I don't agree about the universe at all. The lore in Dragon Age Origins is fantastic. The codex is one of the best ever.

This in itself is a problem. A game universe should be great regardless if you read about it or not.

I can't comment on FC5 as I didn't play it, but in my opinion having a voiced protagonist is pretty much always more of a limitation than a silent protagonist is.

A voiced protagonist forces the recording of lines, which balloons the budget, which normally results in less actual choices for dialogue, and less variation because each variation increases the costs involved so much.

Games with voiced protagonist choices that do it well often have to resort to limiting the scope of the protagonist's backstory in some way shape or form, and thus also limit the actual characterization.

I think that's more of an impression than a proven fact. We would need to compare "written lines for the protagonist" in voice and non-voiced games to be sure. But the main point is, a lot of the lines in RPGs results in the same outcome. That's (partially) what I meant with the impression of choices...
 

Bastables

Member
Dec 3, 2017
367
I can't comment on FC5 as I didn't play it, but in my opinion having a voiced protagonist is pretty much always more of a limitation than a silent protagonist is.

A voiced protagonist forces the recording of lines, which balloons the budget, which normally results in less actual choices for dialogue, and less variation because each variation increases the costs involved so much.

Games with voiced protagonist choices that do it well often have to resort to limiting the scope of the protagonist's backstory in some way shape or form, and thus also limit the actual characterization.
If the cost and variation concerns were really an issue why bother having any voices at all? One of the reasons I loved Fallout was the growing budgets that suddenly had Richard Dean Anderson (Mygyver to me) being the mayor of Junktown, but your argument would mean it's a lesser implementation of the character because it's voiced?

Lucasarts games like Tie fighter and Monkey island were massively improved by CD versions with actual voice acting over their pure txt based 3.5inch versions.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
If the cost and variation concerns were really an issue why bother having any voices at all? One of the reasons I loved Fallout was the growing budgets that suddenly had Richard Dean Anderson (Mygyver to me) being the mayor of Junktown, but your argument would mean it's a lesser implementation of the character because it's voiced?

Lucasarts games like Tie fighter and Monkey island were massively improved by CD versions with actual voice acting over their pure txt based 3.5inch versions.
When they voiced up the protagonists in Fallout, it was just coincidence that the rpg elements, dialogue systems and choice and consequence went way out the window
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
DA:O was one of the only rpgs that gave me that feeling of playing classic rpgs like BG, along with Divinity: OS2, I'd say those two are my favorite rpogs of the past two decades as far as crpgs go.

I would have loved to have had a voiced protag but at the time this wasn't a common thing in rpgs, I mean ME only came out like two years before it and for the most part even big rpg games didn't have voiced protags at that time, ME is a driving force that gave way to more of those.
 

Bastables

Member
Dec 3, 2017
367
When they voiced up the protagonists in Fallout, it was just coincidence that the rpg elements, dialogue systems and choice and consequence went way out the window
Fallout 4's predecessor already did those things with a non voiced protagonist... Skyrim. That's been a constant criticism of Bethesda games since oblivion : Why are they dumbing down the rpg elements with all this causal bullshit?

I don't think it's voiced acting that is driving bethesda's choices in making "RPG loot em ups".
 

Vordan

Member
Aug 12, 2018
2,489
I remember when I was seeing early stuff about Dragon Age I was thinking, you're making your own original fantasy setting and can make it anything you want to, and you still decided on humans/elves/dwarves, fighter/rogue/mage?
It was a deliberate choice after Jade Empire, they wanted to get back to the more "typical" fantasy genre but put a twist on the usual fantasy tropes. It was also before GOT got big and made deconstruction of fantasy tropes old hat (although DA definitely took inspiration from GRRM ASoIaF).
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,359
São Paulo - Brazil
Fallout 4's predecessor already did those things with a non voiced protagonist... Skyrim. That's been a constant criticism of Bethesda games since oblivion : Why are they dumbing down the rpg elements with all this causal bullshit?

I don't think it's voiced acting that is driving bethesda's choices in making "RPG loot em ups".

Exactly. I'm seeing this "they dumbed down the roleplaying" at least since Fallout 3, so blaming this on voiced protagonists is ignorance or worse.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,230
Fallout 4's predecessor already did those things with a non voiced protagonist... Skyrim. That's been a constant criticism of Bethesda games since oblivion : Why are they dumbing down the rpg elements with all this causal bullshit?

I don't think it's voiced acting that is driving bethesda's choices in making "RPG loot em ups".
Can you think of any voiced-protagonist RPGs with dialogue skill check systems as complex as New Vegas', or Shadowrun: Dragonfall's, or Pillars of Eternity's, or KotOR II's, for instance?

This isn't a 'got ya' so much as it is a serious question 'cause I'd love to play such a game! I love RPGs with voiced and silent protagonists, but for distinctly different reasons--a game that actually managed to combine a complex dialogue skill check system with a voiced protagonist would very much be the best of both worlds. (Well, mostly--sometimes I have a distinct voice for my protagonist in my head, which obviously isn't something a voiced system can really accommodate.)
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
I never played the later Dragon Ages but I remember thinking how limited dialogue options were for Mass Effect 2 vs DAO.
Pretty much, and I love Mass Effect 2!

But it absolutely is more limited because you're still playing as Shepard, and the decisions you make still have to fit into an overall archtype (such as uncompromising morals/ethics vs getting the mission done no matter what).
I think that's more of an impression than a proven fact. We would need to compare "written lines for the protagonist" in voice and non-voiced games to be sure. But the main point is, a lot of the lines in RPGs results in the same outcome. That's (partially) what I meant with the impression of choices...

I think that's more of an impression than a proven fact. We would need to compare "written lines for the protagonist" in voice and non-voiced games to be sure. But the main point is, a lot of the lines in RPGs results in the same outcome. That's (partially) what I meant with the impression of choices...
I mean compare Pillars of Eternity to something like Mass Effect for example. There are significantly more outcomes, and more solutions to problems.

Just in terms of character backstory options Mass Effect gets absolutely dwarfed, and a huge reason for it is because you aren't a pre-defined character like Shepard. Even going back to something like KotoR 2, where you are "the exile" you tend to have way more dialogue options, and are given significantly more leeway to define yourself both as a character and from an ethical standpoint.

Hell just the silent protagonist approach also allows for similar answers with different tones (something that ME:A tried and I did appreciate tbh).

If the cost and variation concerns were really an issue why bother having any voices at all? One of the reasons I loved Fallout was the growing budgets that suddenly had Richard Dean Anderson (Mygyver to me) being the mayor of Junktown, but your argument would mean it's a lesser implementation of the character because it's voiced?
I mean this would be assuming that the costs for making the early Fallouts are anywhere near the same as costs of making a modern high budget game.

Also, just to check, but are you talking about an NPC specifically? Because I can't help but notice that once the protagonist in the series got a voice the dialogue options dropped in number pretty significantly. And the protagonist also ended up having a more rigid backstory/start (having a child etc).

I don't think it's voiced acting that is driving bethesda's choices in making "RPG loot em ups".
Sure, but looking at something like Mass Effect, which also had similar limitations (albeit it pulled those off significantly better than FO4).

Exactly. I'm seeing this "they dumbed down the roleplaying" at least since Fallout 3, so blaming this on voiced protagonists is ignorance or worse.
I mean sure if you ignore every other example in this thread.

Can you think of any voiced-protagonist RPG with a dialogue skill check system as complex as New Vegas', or Shadowrun: Dragonfall's, or Pillars of Eternity's, or KotOR II's, for instance?
Pretty much this. I can't really think of any tbh.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,359
São Paulo - Brazil
I mean compare Pillars of Eternity to something like Mass Effect for example. There are significantly more outcomes, and more solutions to problems.

Just in terms of character backstory options Mass Effect gets absolutely dwarfed, and a huge reason for it is because you aren't a pre-defined character like Shepard. Even going back to something like KotoR 2, where you are "the exile" you tend to have way more dialogue options, and are given significantly more leeway to define yourself both as a character and from an ethical standpoint.

Hell just the silent protagonist approach also allows for similar answers with different tones (something that ME:A tried and I did appreciate tbh).

Similars answer with different tones in entirely in the players mind so I would not take that into consideration.

But I would argue that not being a pre-defined character has much more to do with the overall story than if the protagonist is voiced or not. Shepard, because of who they are (and where the story is going) have a certain limited range in terms of choice.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
Similars answer with different tones in entirely in the players mind so I would not take that into consideration.

But I would argue that not being a pre-defined character has much more to do with the overall story than if the protagonist is voiced or not. Shepard, because of who they are (and where the story is going) have a certain limited range in terms of choice.
Who they are is at two opposite end of a spectrum and the games never really reward you for playing some degree between the two ends. In fact, it usually mechanically incentivized you to stick to one side for accessing dialogue and other benefits.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Similars answer with different tones in entirely in the players mind so I would not take that into consideration.
"It doesn't count because I say so" I even pointed to a voiced protagonist game in which it tried to demonstrate this. It's absolute a thing.

But I would argue that not being a pre-defined character has much more to do with the overall story than if the protagonist is voiced or not. Shepard, because of who they are (and where the story is going) have a certain limited range in terms of choice.
So it was due to the story you couldn't get as many dialogue options?
This isn't example of a completely game changing choice sure. But as you go through the game POE would keep track of your tone, and build it up in your character stats, and it could open up further dialague options for you. For example if you frequently found clever solutions enough, a new dialogue might open up that lets you solve a particularly hard encounter that others couldn't.

Another example is if you're particularly honest, you get further options in dialogue and NPCs trust you more as a result of it.

And that doesn't even get into backstory/class specific options:

In this game you're still a Watcher as mandated by the story, but the differences in options is incredibly obvious.

DA:O is not "every other example in this thread". In DA:O case a muted protagonist simply felt like a voiced one... but without the voice.
I don't really understand what you're trying to say here tbh. Because I was talking about the examples others made about voiced vs not voiced.

Who they are is at two opposite end of a spectrum and the games never really reward you for playing some degree between the two ends. In fact, it usually mechanically incentivized you to stick to one side for accessing dialogue and other benefits.
This is absolutely true, though I will say that the mechanically incentivzing to respond in a certain way isn't necessarily an issue specific with voiced protagonists, (for example looking at KotoR 1 where you'd still want to hit max good or bad for the bonuses etc) Or even Pillars, where being consistent can build up semi-hidden reputation stats that give you more options.
 
Last edited:

chrisypoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,457
Origins wasn't the worst of the bunch, but go on. :p
This. Origins is easily superior to each of its sequels, to such a degree that claiming it's the worst of its franchise comes off as hyperbole and click bait. I suppose I would understand the opinion more if....well....more than eight people believed DA2 and Inquisition were better games than Origins, but we're talking about an extreme minority.

OP is right about Baldur's Gate though, DA:O pales in comparison to either Baldur's Gate 1 or 2.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,359
São Paulo - Brazil
"It doesn't count because I say so" I even pointed to a voiced protagonist game in which it tried to demonstrate this. It's absolute a thing.


So it was due to the story you couldn't get as many dialogue options?

This isn't example of a completely game changing choice sure. But as you go through the game POE would keep track of your tone, and build it up in your character stats, and it could open up further dialague options for you. For example if you frequently found clever solutions enough, a new dialogue might open up that lets you solve a particularly hard encounter that others couldn't.

And that doesn't even get into backstory/class specific options:


In this game you're still a Watcher as mandated by the story, but the differences in options is incredibly obvious.


I don't really understand what you're trying to say here tbh. Because I was talking about the examples others made about voiced vs not voiced.


This is absolutely true, though I will say that the mechanically incentivzing to respond in a certain way isn't necessarily an issue specific with voiced protagonists, (for example looking at KotoR 1 where you'd still want to hit max good or bad for the bonuses etc) Or even Pillars, where being consistent can build up semi-hidden reputation stats that give you more options.

My point was that a true/lie choice would still be possibel with a voice protagonist. Indeed, if you would voice the choices that you've shown in your reply, that wouldn't be needed more than three (for the first one).

Not to mention a lot of dialogue choices as shown is classic RPGs in a RPG like Mass Effect woul be hidden behind the "explore" questions.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
My point was that a true/lie choice would still be possibel with a voice protagonist.
Then why hasn't it been done?

. Indeed, if you would voice the choices that you've shown in your reply, that wouldn't be needed more than three (for the first one).
And exactly how would that be the case? Boiling it down to three options means you lose out lol. In the first picture the choices might not have huge consequences to the plot, but each option absolutely implies different things.

Not to mention a lot of dialogue choices as shown is classic RPGs in a RPG like Mass Effect woul be hidden behind the "explore" questions.
Except often those "explore" options in mass effect would be for further information, and rarely if ever contained meaningful dialogue for the protagonist.
 

Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,946
i too felt dragon age origins was pretty mediocre compared to baldurs gate/ neverwinter nights, even though i hate the combat in the latter. Dragon age was the epitome of consolizing a great pc series, but instead of the usualy derision, people praised it. i still enjoyed the game, but it was a rough game.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
I believe you would agree that [truth]yes and []ie]yes could be recorded in a single line, so why hasn't it being done?
That's assuming that there is no tonal difference between telling the truth and lying, which normally you woould want to establish.

I think when it comes to AAA RPG the main concerns changes. t's about an overall great game rather than a mediocre game with good dialogue choices.
This is a ridiculous statement lol. Do you genuinely believe that people go "we're going to make an ok game with great dialogue choices!" It seems pretty clear that you have a pretty strong bias if you actually believe that.