Remnant From The Ashes |OT| A New Soul Rises From The Ashes

[thonerayman]

You are 100% right, and the skills you are asked to develop up to that point are: fight multiple enemies, deal with an elite (or two sometimes) that spawn, utilize the environment, stay alive, do dmg and win. This is exactly that the boss fights are except in a smaller room, with a bigger "elite".

First dungeon (typically) in City; lots of Hollow, some elites, and then exploder dudes running at you. No?



Very true, but the trick is to not get hit by those guys. They have a loud squealing tell. They die in 1 shot from any starting long-gun (and 3 from the repeater pistol), and always spawn at a distance so they can run to you (you can get your bearings then deal with them, etc).



Totally understandable. I 100% agree that not everyone will have the same experience.



Again, the adds were never a bandaid solution. They are part of the puzzle.



Told us so? We knew some people would have trouble with it. We also knew some people wouldn't have trouble with it. We could have put sprint on LB and someone would have said "you really shouldn't have put sprint on LB, L3 click is standard" and then said "I hate to tell you I told you so". What does that tell us? We already know not everyone will like every decision. We have reasons for adding the mobs. The tuning values might be too high or too low, but they have legitimate purpose. As mentioned, the fights are puzzles in some way. The boss is the ultimate goal, but not the only thing.



What happens when you run out of scrap? We force you to go farm instead of fighting the boss? If you get afflicted by a disease, you can still beat the boss, and if you die, it's gone (note: It didn't use to, LOL). You run out of ammo, then what? You die and try again? What happens if you need more ammo than is required to kill the boss? Ammo box? Scrap problem again.



Perhaps you should look at it as "plagued with design decisions I don't personally agree with". I may look at a piece of art and say "man I really don't agree with the use of RED in this picture... it's just too loud and takes away from the blues and greens" but does it mean the artist is wrong? Am I wrong? Or... do I just not agree with their specific tasted and/or vision.



I was the #1 tank DPS in the world (while taking the least damage) on Patchwerk according to Elitist Jerks after Xav put up his video of "look how many buttons a top level tank has to press" or whatever it was. They thought my methods were "cheating" and "went against the spirit of the competition" yet I still did the highest DPS and took the lowest amount of DMG. I was also in a top 15 world guild that did top 15 Algalon.

What does that have anything to do with anything?



In your opinion, right? Or is it just 100% matter of fact?

You are 100% correct that people have complained about it. But it is also 100% fact that not everyone, nor the majority have complained about it. Who's right here? I mean, really, I don't care whos actually right in the end. It comes down to "did you enjoy the game?" and if not, thats super cool. I'm very happy you even tried the game. We put a lot of work into it and I think other people are having a pretty fun time... and that's all we can ask for!

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Let me ask you this. If you knew some people would have a problem with it, and others wouldn't but very very few would love it (adds in boss fights) why not go about it another way? In all these posts on discord, reddit, and here we have seen less than 5 people saying the love the adds. You've had a lot saying it doesn't bother them and a lot saying they hate them. The one response I've seen you give is "do you tell a painter a painting needs more blue". But this is a false equivalency. While I see game as an art it's not the same as a painting. BUT going with your analogy, if a painter is painting something he wants to sell, knowing a lot of people hate green, some really don't care of there is green or not, they wouldn't just do a painting full of green stuff.

I wanted to love this game, I think the combat is really fun. But the bosses with constant add spawning is dreadful. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

 

[.git]

I'm losing my shit at trying to defeat Gorefist

 

[Conkerkid11]

Is there a reason that defeating the lightning boss in the magical forest area lead me to an area that's just a dead-end and a shortcut?

There's a difference between having properly scaled adds for a range of player sets versus a catch all add pool. Just saying that you're cool with it because some people enjoy the *neverending* adds on fights like the Mangler is not the right look. It's one of the most annoying things I've come across in any game in my recent memory. We're not complaining just for the hell of it.

Edit: It could be that this feedback blindsided you guys, and that's fine. It happens. But please take it to heart and think about it. It's most definitely not the same as a piece of art with too much color. It's more like we're trying to look at the piece but there's a swarm of flys buzzing around our heads constantly.

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That'd be weird if this feedback blindsided them. I think one of the biggest complaints the Souls games get is tacking on adds to fights against bosses that by themselves aren't that difficult.

The best boss fight in Sekiro was the last boss fight, largely because it didn't have any adds. Just a 1v1 against an incredibly difficult enemy. That's why the tree boss in this game has probably been my favorite so far, because it had minimal adds and an interesting boss.

 

[DiceHands]

After hearing Brad talk about this on the bombcast, I was intrigued. Might have to scoop this soon! For some reason though I totally thought it was an FPS, I was surprised to see its TPS.

 

[GymWolf86]

Undying King is a clusterfuck solo....

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lucky for me i have all night of trying...

 

[tragic]

Most of the time when I finally beat a difficult boss in this game, it doesn't really feel satisfying, because it feels like the only reason I beat it that time was because the add spawns were more forgiving that time around.

My best attempt at The Risen was when the adds stopped spawning for about 20 seconds.

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The Risen isn't a boss fight. It's a seige. However, it's currently overtuned. We are working on it.

 

[tragic]

Let me ask you this. If you knew some people would have a problem with it, and others wouldn't but very very few would love it (adds in boss fights) why not go about it another way? In all these posts on discord, reddit, and here we have seen less than 5 people saying the love the adds. You've had a lot saying it doesn't bother them and a lot saying they hate them. The one response I've seen you give is "do you tell a painter a painting needs more blue". But this is a false equivalency. While I see game as an art it's not the same as a painting. BUT going with your analogy, if a painter is painting something he wants to sell, knowing a lot of people hate green, some really don't care of there is green or not, they wouldn't just do a painting full of green stuff.

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We knew because we know not everyone likes everything. You have to remember, at the end of the day we wanted to make a game that we enjoyed, and we felt other people would enjoy too. We also knew some people would not enjoy it. We can't please everyone and we know that.

I've also see way more than 5 people say "I love the boss fights" or "these boss fights get my heart pumping" or "that was effing awesome!" when they beat a challenging boss.

I wanted to love this game, I think the combat is really fun. But the bosses with constant add spawning is dreadful. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

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Of course you aren't. You are in the camp that doesn't enjoy it, and that is absolutely a super fair opinion to have. I'm not faulting you for that.

That'd be weird if this feedback blindsided them. I think one of the biggest complaints the Souls games get is tacking on adds to fights against bosses that by themselves aren't that difficult.

The best boss fight in Sekiro was the last boss fight, largely because it didn't have any adds. Just a 1v1 against an incredibly difficult enemy. That's why the tree boss in this game has probably been my favorite so far, because it had minimal adds and an interesting boss.

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The comparison to Soulsborne/Sekiro doesn't work in this case, though. The moment you have "guns" (aka magic") in Souls, the games become a cakewalk. They are the "easymode" (not counting co-op as well). Our game is mostly ranged. Much like other mostly-ranged games, we spawn adds. Could we adjust the timing? Sure. Could we adjust the intensity? Absolutely. Will we ever make a bossfight without adds? Of course. Will we remove adds on boss fights entirely? No.

Anyway, at the end of the day, some bosses will have adds, some bosses will not. We will look at the tuning, but adds aren't ever completely going away. Again, I'm super glad you have the game a try and gave your feedback.

 

[Billfisto]

For the adds, are there any common factors between those that aren't liking them, or those that are okay with them?

I'm wondering if controller type / weapon may have something to do with it.

I re-rolled on PS4 because I just wasn't having any luck with the coach gun/magnum on Shroud. Despite what's been said, it definitely wasn't taking down the adds in one shot.

 

[Stop It]

Is there a reason that defeating the lightning boss in the magical forest area lead me to an area that's just a dead-end and a shortcut?


That'd be weird if this feedback blindsided them. I think one of the biggest complaints the Souls games get is tacking on adds to fights against bosses that by themselves aren't that difficult.

The best boss fight in Sekiro was the last boss fight, largely because it didn't have any adds. Just a 1v1 against an incredibly difficult enemy. That's why the tree boss in this game has probably been my favorite so far, because it had minimal adds and an interesting boss.

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Well to counter that, games like Diablo etc use bosses with adds to great effect. The fact that you have to think about more than just one targets keeps you on your toes and adds a different strategy requirement than straight 1v1.

I'm not saying either approach is better, but I see why that people who maybe aren't as interested in making everything like souls would understand boss fights that take cues from other ARPG sources.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Also, is fall damage gonna be touched at all? Kind of annoying to fall like 5 feet and take a ton of damage from that.

Well to counter that, games like Diablo etc use bosses with adds to great effect. The fact that you have to think about more than just one targets keeps you on your toes and adds a different strategy requirement than straight 1v1.

I'm not saying either approach is better, but I see why that people who maybe aren't as interested in making everything like souls would understand boss fights that take cues from other ARPG sources.

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Games like Diablo use adds just like any other games tend to use adds. You have a boss fight split up between damage phase and add phase. Remnant largely tries to combine the two in every single encounter, so it's difficult to find a safe moment to damage the boss.

Also, it's difficult to compare a game like Diablo to this. In Diablo, I've got a build that deals with AoE damage, single target damage, health regen, damage mitigation, and resource regen. There's so many elements at play that help me deal with powering through mobs as quickly as possible. In this, I'm very limited in terms of what I can do. There's not much I can do in terms of AoE, and resource regen is entirely dependent on a percentage chance drop for ammo from adds.

I can't attest to solo play, but my brother and I are having an absolute blast. We're at NG+ so far, on Hard mode.

We have no issues at all with the adds during boss fights. We haven't fought all bosses yet, but our first full playthrough was incredibly enjoyable. Managing the adds and kiting around the rooms is a part of how to strategize and beat the bosses that we enjoyed. Not saying its everyones cup of tea, but we love it. Keeps it tense.

The only annoyances we had were boss fights that were actually bugging out. (final boss)

Thanks tragic and Co. for the awesome game!
Looking forward to what's down the line.

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A large part of the problem is that adds are significantly more difficult to deal with in solo play because you don't have the option of dividing tasks between players, and only having one life versus resurrections.

 

[Plumpman]

I can't attest to solo play, but my brother and I are having an absolute blast. We're at NG+ so far, on Hard mode.

We have no issues at all with the adds during boss fights. We haven't fought all bosses yet, but our first full playthrough was incredibly enjoyable. Managing the adds and kiting around the rooms is a part of how to strategize and beat the bosses that we enjoyed. Not saying its everyones cup of tea, but we love it. Keeps it tense.

The only annoyances we had were boss fights that were actually bugging out. (final boss)

Thanks tragic and Co. for the awesome game!
Looking forward to what's down the line.

 

[Silent Disco]

You are 100% right, and the skills you are asked to develop up to that point are: fight multiple enemies, deal with an elite (or two sometimes) that spawn, utilize the environment, stay alive, do dmg and win. This is exactly that the boss fights are except in a smaller room, with a bigger "elite".

First dungeon (typically) in City; lots of Hollow, some elites, and then exploder dudes running at you. No?



Very true, but the trick is to not get hit by those guys. They have a loud squealing tell. They die in 1 shot from any starting long-gun (and 3 from the repeater pistol), and always spawn at a distance so they can run to you (you can get your bearings then deal with them, etc).



Totally understandable. I 100% agree that not everyone will have the same experience.



Again, the adds were never a bandaid solution. They are part of the puzzle.



Told us so? We knew some people would have trouble with it. We also knew some people wouldn't have trouble with it. We could have put sprint on LB and someone would have said "you really shouldn't have put sprint on LB, L3 click is standard" and then said "I hate to tell you I told you so". What does that tell us? We already know not everyone will like every decision. We have reasons for adding the mobs. The tuning values might be too high or too low, but they have legitimate purpose. As mentioned, the fights are puzzles in some way. The boss is the ultimate goal, but not the only thing.



What happens when you run out of scrap? We force you to go farm instead of fighting the boss? If you get afflicted by a disease, you can still beat the boss, and if you die, it's gone (note: It didn't use to, LOL). You run out of ammo, then what? You die and try again? What happens if you need more ammo than is required to kill the boss? Ammo box? Scrap problem again.



Perhaps you should look at it as "plagued with design decisions I don't personally agree with". I may look at a piece of art and say "man I really don't agree with the use of RED in this picture... it's just too loud and takes away from the blues and greens" but does it mean the artist is wrong? Am I wrong? Or... do I just not agree with their specific tasted and/or vision.



I was the #1 tank DPS in the world (while taking the least damage) on Patchwerk according to Elitist Jerks after Xav put up his video of "look how many buttons a top level tank has to press" or whatever it was. They thought my methods were "cheating" and "went against the spirit of the competition" yet I still did the highest DPS and took the lowest amount of DMG. I was also in a top 15 world guild that did top 15 Algalon.

What does that have anything to do with anything?



In your opinion, right? Or is it just 100% matter of fact?

You are 100% correct that people have complained about it. But it is also 100% fact that not everyone, nor the majority have complained about it. Who's right here? I mean, really, I don't care whos actually right in the end. It comes down to "did you enjoy the game?" and if not, thats super cool. I'm very happy you even tried the game. We put a lot of work into it and I think other people are having a pretty fun time... and that's all we can ask for!

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+1
bravo post!
great job with this game! completely enjoying it.
people with negative views of the game is fine... you made your voice known, ok, move on.
it's the people with negative views who have to be right and damn those who disagree with said negative view and continually post the same thing over and over.
the claim "it's my opinion, i can post my opinion" is absolutely true, 100%.
but constantly spamming the same thing over and over accomplishes what?
what is it you ultimately want?
you've had a very patient developer explain their game design philosophy and decisions.
tragic has respectively responded to many/most/all criticisms aimed at the game in this thread and others.
and tragic had done an excellent job explaining game mechanic logic and the decisions the team made regarding game mechanics.
you don't like amount of adds in the game?
fine, search and see if it's been brought up yet and/or if tragic or other developers are aware of your said issue.
if the answer is no it hasn't then post some constructive criticism.
if the answers is yes it has then why post the same thing? we've heard that track, flip the record.
hog-pile mentality? fyi, pushing the elevator button multiple times doesn't speed up the elevator's arrival.
you made your voice known, move on.

 

[The Cellar Letters]

The Shade and Shatter boss fight is a 10/10

 

[Conkerkid11]

+1
bravo post!
great job with this game! completely enjoying it.
people with negative views of the game is fine... you made your voice known, ok, move on.
it's the people with negative views who have to be right and damn those who disagree with said negative view and continually post the same thing over and over.
the claim "it's my opinion, i can post my opinion" is absolutely true, 100%.
but constantly spamming the same thing over and over accomplishes what?
what is it you ultimately want?
you've had a very patient developer explain their game design philosophy and decisions.
tragic has respectively responded to many/most/all criticisms aimed at the game in this thread and others.
and tragic had done an excellent job explaining game mechanic logic and the decisions the team made regarding game mechanics.
you don't like amount of adds in the game?
fine, search and see if it's been brought up yet and/or if tragic or other developers are aware of your said issue.
if the answer is no it hasn't then post some constructive criticism.
if the answers is yes it has then why post the same thing? we've heard that track, flip the record.
hog-pile mentality? fyi, pushing the elevator button multiple times doesn't speed up the elevator's arrival.
you made your voice known, move on.

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Nobody's hogpiling on anybody in this thread. Why have you taken it upon yourself to dictate what the topic of the thread is?

Why did you make a post with this format?

 

[Reaper55]

I have been thinking about this game all day, cant wait to play more tonight.


Just because people aren't going online and shouting I LOVE ADDS IN BOSS ENCOUNTERS doesn't mean that consensus feedback is adds are a problem.

They are just a mechanic - indifferent for many but extremely annoying for a few especially if they came in expecting a calculating 1v1 experience.

I haven't seen that much yet, but I really think as long as there is a good variety in encounters these complaints have no merit.

 

[Stop It]

Also, is fall damage gonna be touched at all? Kind of annoying to fall like 5 feet and take a ton of damage from that.


Games like Diablo use adds just like any other games tend to use adds. You have a boss fight split up between damage phase and add phase. Remnant largely tries to combine the two in every single encounter, so it's difficult to find a safe moment to damage the boss.

Also, it's difficult to compare a game like Diablo to this. In Diablo, I've got a build that deals with AoE damage, single target damage, health regen, damage mitigation, and resource regen. There's so many elements at play that help me deal with powering through mobs as quickly as possible. In this, I'm very limited in terms of what I can do. There's not much I can do in terms of AoE, and resource regen is entirely dependent on a percentage chance drop for ammo from adds.


A large part of the problem is that adds are significantly more difficult to deal with in solo play because you don't have the option of dividing tasks between players, and only having one life versus resurrections.

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Fair comment. Phases definitely are a thing with bosses and adds and blending the two without giving a player the chance to deal with a boss properly isn't too fun either. I haven't got too far into Remnant yet but yeah if the balance is too far towards add management than the boss itself that should be tweaked a bit.

However I'm not against tweaks to give better add management capabilities than to remove them as a factor in boss fights.

 

[Astraer]

Fourth blue screen of the night, PS4 Pro. Getting a bit worrying, really love the game but this is too much.

 

[Tya]

Let me ask you this. If you knew some people would have a problem with it, and others wouldn't but very very few would love it (adds in boss fights) why not go about it another way? In all these posts on discord, reddit, and here we have seen less than 5 people saying the love the adds. You've had a lot saying it doesn't bother them and a lot saying they hate them. The one response I've seen you give is "do you tell a painter a painting needs more blue". But this is a false equivalency. While I see game as an art it's not the same as a painting. BUT going with your analogy, if a painter is painting something he wants to sell, knowing a lot of people hate green, some really don't care of there is green or not, they wouldn't just do a painting full of green stuff.

I wanted to love this game, I think the combat is really fun. But the bosses with constant add spawning is dreadful. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

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If you don't like adds in boss fights, why are you playing a game where it is a major component? I'm not sure why the dev is even bothering to respond to this type of criticism.

 

[Deathglobe]

I've doubled dipped. I'm kinda upset in a good way that my pc character has stuff my Xbox character doesn't.

 

[thonerayman]

If you don't like adds in boss fights, why are you playing a game where it is a major component? I'm not sure why the dev is even bothering to respond to this type of criticism.

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Well I'm not anymore. I preorder months ago, got in during preview weekend and it was then that I realized that every boss (or at leat 95% of them) have insane adds. After 15 hours of game played in 2 days I stopped. Why do I keep talking about it? Because I want to play this game. Most people can play whatever they want and not worry about it. I dont have that luxury. I have to avoid games with loot boxes like the plague for my own protection. So when a game comes around that I love everything about it but 1 or 2 things of course I'm going to advocate for them. Because I can't just say "f it I'll go play something else"

 

[tragic]

Fourth blue screen of the night, PS4 Pro. Getting a bit worrying, really love the game but this is too much.

Click to shrink...

Hrm. Do you know what you are doing when it happens? I can pass this along!

If you don't like adds in boss fights, why are you playing a game where it is a major component? I'm not sure why the dev is even bothering to respond to this type of criticism.

Click to shrink...

I bother because I think we can learn from both positive and negative criticism. I want to let people know what our thoughts were and why we did what we did / do what we do. I want to let players know that we know we won't please everyone, but more importantly, that we are listening. Feedback is helpful. This game is for players (even if it's not for all of them). =)

 

[KirbyKid]

Hey everyone. I read the last 3 pages of this thread. I have this to say...

Games are complex. They're hard to make and hard to play. Remnant has a lot going in (randomness, solo vs co-op, stats/leveling). This makes it particularly hard to talk about our experiences.

Behind all this talk about adds vs no-adds is a more complex design discussion. While everyone's experiences and impressions are valid, getting to the real heart of the discussion takes more than what comes naturally in a forum based conversation thread. Because of this, the conversation tends to get stuck in a loop.

Individually, bosses + adds is just a type of gameplay encounter. The adds add one more layer of complexity to design around. The hard part is understanding how to factor in dozens (maybe hundreds) of other factors that make the encounter work.

I hear you thonerayman . If you'd like some help articulating some of the more subtle parts of your position, let me know.

Thanks everyone for playing REM. Keep your eyes open and be sure to share everything you think about anything. I'm always up for a design conversation.

 

[Lyonaz]

Can we have an option to not show our helmet? I like to see my character's face.

Having fun playing this in co-op, but not being able to access the same vendor at the same time is a bit disappointing.

 

[thonerayman]

Hey everyone. I read the last 3 pages of this thread. I have this to say...

Games are complex. They're hard to make and hard to play. Remnant has a lot going in (randomness, solo vs co-op, stats/leveling). This makes it particularly hard to talk about our experiences.

Behind all this talk about adds vs no-adds is a more complex design discussion. While everyone's experiences and impressions are valid, getting to the real heart of the discussion takes more than what comes naturally in a forum based conversation thread. Because of this, the conversation tends to get stuck in a loop.

Individually, bosses + adds is just a type of gameplay encounter. The adds add one more layer of complexity to design around. The hard part is understanding how to factor in dozens (maybe hundreds) of other factors that make the encounter work.

I hear you thonerayman . If you'd like some help articulating some of the more subtle parts of your position, let me know.

Thanks everyone for playing REM. Keep your eyes open and be sure to share everything you think about anything. I'm always up for a design conversation.

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I would love to have a real discussion about this from a long time gamer. In games like this (demon, dark souls, bloodborne, nioh, etc etc etc) the bosses are my favorite part, and I hate fighting my way to them. With this I love the moment to moment gunplay. It's fantastic. But then you get to a boss where adds spawn constantly. There doesn't seem to be boss phases, just adds spawn every x seconds deal with it. Adds can be great in an encounter when they they are done right. A transition phase, or an escalation when the boss gets to X Y and Z percent. But throwing adds at you, constantly is, in my opinion, the worst way to do adds.

And as stated before, if I didn't give a crap about the game I'd just shut up and walk away. But the game from checkpoint to boss is the most fun I've had in a game in a long time. It's hard, strategic, and a blast. But then you get to bosses that are frustrating but for the wrong reasons. It's not about learning boss patterns it's about add management.

 

[SimpleCRIPPLE]

Most of the time when I finally beat a difficult boss in this game, it doesn't really feel satisfying, because it feels like the only reason I beat it that time was because the add spawns were more forgiving that time around.

My best attempt at The Risen was when the adds stopped spawning for about 20 seconds.

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I beginning to agree with this the further I get. The adds feels like the bad type of RNG that leads to frustration, not the good type of RNG that leads to replayability. I love the exploration portion and combat, but once I get to a boss, I just want to get it over with so I can get back to exploring. #TeamFewerAdds

Someone mentioned how Diablo bosses have a DPS phase and an Add phase, and I agree that something like that would work much better in my opinion here. Make the bosses more complex to hold up on their own during a DPS phase, and then use an add phase to replenish ammo/scrap/etc. Granted, this would work better for me as a solo player, I know not everyone will agree and isn't the dev's vision for the game.

I'm losing my shit at trying to defeat Gorefist

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Took me a ton of tries, but once I stopped trying to dodge the adds, and instead just focused on eliminating them quickly, the fight got easier. I had wrongly assumed I should just run around when the adds come out and dodge the explosions. Instead, creating some distance and eliminating them with my rifle quickly left much more time to DPS the boss before the next round of adds.

 

[Billfisto]

Hey everyone. I read the last 3 pages of this thread. I have this to say...

Games are complex. They're hard to make and hard to play. Remnant has a lot going in (randomness, solo vs co-op, stats/leveling). This makes it particularly hard to talk about our experiences.

Behind all this talk about adds vs no-adds is a more complex design discussion. While everyone's experiences and impressions are valid, getting to the real heart of the discussion takes more than what comes naturally in a forum based conversation thread. Because of this, the conversation tends to get stuck in a loop.

Individually, bosses + adds is just a type of gameplay encounter. The adds add one more layer of complexity to design around. The hard part is understanding how to factor in dozens (maybe hundreds) of other factors that make the encounter work.

I hear you thonerayman . If you'd like some help articulating some of the more subtle parts of your position, let me know.

Thanks everyone for playing REM. Keep your eyes open and be sure to share everything you think about anything. I'm always up for a design conversation.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for this. I think the reason a fair number of people are expressing concern about the adds is because they like the rest of the game so much, and the sudden roadblock is preventing them from getting to more of it.

I understand why the adds are there, but wish there was a way to more effectively counter them and get back to wandering around the awesome locales you guys have created, gawping at the cool monsters.

 

[Astraer]

Hrm. Do you know what you are doing when it happens? I can pass this along!



I bother because I think we can learn from both positive and negative criticism. I want to let people know what our thoughts were and why we did what we did / do what we do. I want to let players know that we know we won't please everyone, but more importantly, that we are listening. Feedback is helpful. This game is for players (even if it's not for all of them). =)

Click to shrink...

Honestly, not too sure, it's been pretty random. Had a couple freezes on The Unclean Boss when getting hit with the spin attack. As for the blue screens, they've happened mostly in Corsus but I did have one in Rhom.

 

[Mejilan]

Yup, got my first blue screen on PS4 as well. I had just gotten booted from a multiplayer session (looked it lagged out, not a network issue on my end, wasn't kicked by the host). Went to switch into Offline play to go to the hub and perform some gear upgrades, and poof, blue screen. I used the PS4's report button, FWIW.

Re: the adds vs no adds issue in boss fights. I'm not against them. I love tough games and I raid heavily in Destiny, so I'm used to juggling mechanics, prioritizing targets, and adjusting on-the-fly to changing conditions. That said, I do feel like REM boss fights could do with a bit of tuning in general. I don't know if that means easing up on the global add spawn timer just a tad (at least in a hectic, mic-less, three-player session with randoms), or perhaps removing the global timer and base the add spawns on boss health hardpoints. I'm a fan of the latter because it doesn't require that you split boss fights into DPS/adds phases. You can keep the boss vulnerable to damage and continue with it's normal AI and attack routines for the entire fight. I think it would make the "puzzle-solving" element of the boss fights a bit more approachable to more casual players without really compromising much on the experience.

Heck. It could be a hybrid solution. Fixed add spawns after boss health drops to certain thresholds, and a much more lenient global timer for (perhaps a smaller set of mobs) to punish teams that don't focus fire on the boss properly between spawns. And it doesn't necessarily need to be for every boss with adds.

Just an idea to consider if you haven't already.

I get that teams of three buddies with mics and optimal gear and mix--maxed leveling are probably going to figure out the boss fights quickly and stomp them. I also feel like most folks aren't playing the game that way. I've heard tragic mention that specific bosses are either broken or overtuned and are in the process of being adjusted. That's great.

As part of the feedback process, I do feel that the game, to a certain extent, punishes folks for grouping just a tad too severely at the moment. Especially a full team of three randoms. I was playing with two other randos last night and we were stuck on the Singe fight for ages. Eventually, one gave up and left. At our next at-bat, our now duo crushed the boss. It just felt like way fewer Immolators were spawning. Don't know if it was a glitch, or if there's just that big of a disparity with add spawning between a two-player fight and a three-player fight for that particular boss. I've noticed similar "balancing issues" (using air quotes because I don't know what else to call it) with other boss fights throughout the day today.

Generally, right now, it feels like a team of two randoms will have an easier time than either a solo player or a team of three randoms for a good number of bosses I've fought so far. It's early days. I expect a lot of tweaks to come down the pipeline as the game matures. I'm very happy with it as-is, but like any modern-day title; I think it's safe to say that it's still a few tweaks shy of greatness.

 

[Karak]

Hey everyone. I read the last 3 pages of this thread. I have this to say...

Games are complex. They're hard to make and hard to play. Remnant has a lot going in (randomness, solo vs co-op, stats/leveling). This makes it particularly hard to talk about our experiences.

Behind all this talk about adds vs no-adds is a more complex design discussion. While everyone's experiences and impressions are valid, getting to the real heart of the discussion takes more than what comes naturally in a forum based conversation thread. Because of this, the conversation tends to get stuck in a loop.

Individually, bosses + adds is just a type of gameplay encounter. The adds add one more layer of complexity to design around. The hard part is understanding how to factor in dozens (maybe hundreds) of other factors that make the encounter work.

I hear you thonerayman . If you'd like some help articulating some of the more subtle parts of your position, let me know.

Thanks everyone for playing REM. Keep your eyes open and be sure to share everything you think about anything. I'm always up for a design conversation.

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Wanted to ask you. Love the idea of adventure mode and resetting individual levels. Was that just a time thing for not getting in? That is really exciting as an idea. Also will there be more possible choices you may have when rerolling when that does go live? If you are not able to discuss I get it.

 

[tragic]

Love the idea of adventure mode and resetting individual levels. Was that just a time thing for not getting in? That is really exciting as an idea. Also will there be more possible choices you may have when rerolling when that does go live? If you are not able to discuss I get it.

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Yep, time thing. As for more stuff to see, still yet to be determined, but we absolutely want to! =)

 

[Queen Of Hunting]

Queen Of Hunting is there any discord to hang out at ?

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the devs have a official one, if your on pc we have a pcera discord and i usually make monthly channels for certain games and remnant has one at moment.

 

[tragic]

Yup, got my first blue screen on PS4 as well. I had just gotten booted from a multiplayer session (looked it lagged out, not a network issue on my end, wasn't kicked by the host). Went to switch into Offline play to go to the hub and perform some gear upgrades, and poof, blue screen. I used the PS4's report button, FWIW.

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OK, I'll ask around tomorrow to see what's up!

Just an idea to consider if you haven't already.

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Definitely some knobs we can tune! =)

I get that teams of three buddies with mics and optimal gear and mix--maxed leveling are probably going to figure out the boss fights quickly and stomp them. I also feel like most folks aren't playing the game that way. I've heard tragic mention that specific bosses are either broken or overtuned and are in the process of being adjusted. That's great.

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Besides final boss portal not working, and/or a random pathing glitch here or there, no other bosses are broken as far as I know. The only thing overtuned right now is the Risen siege/horde quest. The Lost Gantry should have a fix in for the door, soon. If you know of any others, let me know!

As part of the feedback process, I do feel that the game, to a certain extent, punishes folks for grouping just a tad too severely at the moment. Especially a full team of three randoms. I was playing with two other randos last night and we were stuck on the Singe fight for ages. Eventually, one gave up and left. At our next at-bat, our now duo crushed the boss. It just felt like way fewer Immolators were spawning. Don't know if it was a glitch, or if there's just that big of a disparity with add spawning between a two-player fight and a three-player fight for that particular boss. I've noticed similar "balancing issues" (using air quotes because I don't know what else to call it) with other boss fights throughout the day today.

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We will take a look at those aforementioned tuning knobs!

Generally, right now, it feels like a team of two randoms will have an easier time than either a solo player or a team of three randoms for a good number of bosses I've fought so far. It's early days. I expect a lot of tweaks to come down the pipeline as the game matures. I'm very happy with it as-is, but like any modern-day title; I think it's safe to say that it's still a few tweaks shy of greatness.

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Working on it. We definitely want to refine over time.

 

[Queen Of Hunting]

Yep, time thing. As for more stuff to see, still yet to be determined, but we absolutely want to! =)

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im thinking for adventure mode or rerolling you could add modifiers we can pick like maybe for solo play have the game spawn monsters like its 2 player etc.

i mean modifiers we pick not just random :P i think that could be a cool modifier and something to add more challenge/task im sure some would wanna try and complete game with :D

 

[Tya]

The comparison to Soulsborne/Sekiro doesn't work in this case, though. The moment you have "guns" (aka magic") in Souls, the games become a cakewalk. They are the "easymode" (not counting co-op as well). Our game is mostly ranged. Much like other mostly-ranged games, we spawn adds. Could we adjust the timing? Sure. Could we adjust the intensity? Absolutely. Will we ever make a bossfight without adds? Of course. Will we remove adds on boss fights entirely? No.

Anyway, at the end of the day, some bosses will have adds, some bosses will not. We will look at the tuning, but adds aren't ever completely going away. Again, I'm super glad you have the game a try and gave your feedback.

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I think this gets to the heart of the issue. Dark Souls is definitely easier using ranged magic, but even then you are limited by the relatively short distance you can lock on to enemies. In a game like Remnant, you have massive range potential in comparison. If you could take a rifle into the Souls world, the bosses would be trivially easy. Remnant also isn't a cover shooter. There is not an easy solution if the goal is to make 1v1 boss battles with no adds.

I've watched several different people stream the game, and I haven't heard much in the way of complaints about the adds. Most of the people have just treated it as a puzzle in terms of figuring out how to deal with the adds while also damaging the boss. That includes people playing on normal with a 3 person party and a crazy dude who went in blind on nightmare solo for his first try at the game.

There has been a ton of praise for the game from what I've seen including the bosses.

 

[Casper]

Definitely got lost in the recent barrage of adds/no adds discussion so I thought I'd ask again tragic On scaling, can you clarify what a 'zone' is in regards to "enemies scaleto your gear/level average +1 when you enter the zone for the first time".

Earth and all its areas and dungeons ... is that multiple zones? So I am at gear 5 when I enter a dungeon there, that is scaled to 6. Now later, still in Earth, I enter a different dungeon but I'm now at gear avg 10 so those enemies are 11? Is that correct?

Essentially, am I better off pushing as far as I can without upgrading, even going so far as entering as many dungeons as possible to determine their level or is ALL of Earth considered the same zone?

Also for what it is worth, I am a long time fan of games like Monster Hunter where I played 95% of every game solo. The exception being Tri where you were gated by a mp fight to unlock higher ranks. The Souls games as well, always enjoyed the thrill of beating them on my own. I have friends that are the exact opposite though, and then others who really just want the boss fights of Souls and nothing else. Those friends disliked Sekiro not for the difficulty but because of "all the trash" between you and the boss and no fog door to just make a mad dash to. To each their own, obviously, but I love what you have made here.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Totem Father is perfect.

Difficult boss. The player can control the flow of adds.

This is ideal for me.

 

[tragic]

Definitely got lost in the recent barrage of adds/no adds discussion so I thought I'd ask again tragic On scaling, can you clarify what a 'zone' is in regards to "enemies scaleto your gear/level average +1 when you enter the zone for the first time".

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Any time you load into a new area for the first time... that's a zone/area/whatever. The BIOME is the world (like, Earth, Rhom, Corsus, Yaesha, etc).

 

[Mejilan]

tragic and KirbyKid, any plans to add to filtering options to public match-making?
I'm fine with the current default, as it lets me experience stuff that's well beyond where I'm personally at in the story.
But it'd be nice if we could search for public games according to difficulty, biome, etc.

Been playing almost exclusively co-op (as a summoned helper) and now it feels like my Trait Level is too high to get match-made to the Earth biome, which is shooting down my chances at that AR. Not sure if Trait Level plays any role in match-making, of it's just been a run of bad luck for me today...

 

[LordDraven]

How's performance on pC?

 

[Hokey]

Played coop for around 5 hours last night with a friend (using Playstaion party chat), the game ran beautifully and we were able to coordinate all our actions really well, we will hopefully have another friend join us tonight (he was still downloading full game so could not join after the Reactor) so we will be able to test out the 3 player coop in depth. From a lot of the replies in this thread it's obvious there is a problem with the adds and even with 2 players we were constantly on our toes so I imagine in single player it would be pretty difficult but my take is that the game is really geared towards coop play and having 3 players would make the game quite balanced.

The only thing the game is sorely missing is some AOE damage items like grenades etc, not sure if you unlock this stuff later but having a game with so many adds really needs something like this, not only that but it's staple of almost every shooter and it's absence in this game is quite surprising. A few more ammo drops would also be appreciated or giving everyone ammo anytime someone picks it up would be a better alternative.

Anyways it's an awesome game and we're really loving it, looks like there is tons to unlock, the stages are huge and there are some creative and well thought out secrets, it always seems like there is a reason to explore and the randomness of the environments/enemies actually works very well and encourages replay, I also personally like the constant barrage of enemies as the game never feels boring and there is a constant threat, I would prefer the game be very very difficult as opposed to normal or easy so I think the devs are on the right path.

 

[tragic]

tragic and KirbyKid, any plans to add to filtering options to public match-making?
I'm fine with the current default, as it lets me experience stuff that's well beyond where I'm personally at in the story.
But it'd be nice if we could search for public games according to difficulty, biome, etc.

Been playing almost exclusively co-op (as a summoned helper) and now it feels like my Trait Level is too high to get match-made to the Earth biome, which is shooting down my chances at that AR. Not sure if Trait Level plays any role in match-making, of it's just been a run of bad luck for me today...

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Unsure about additional MM options, but I know we've talked about some possible updates!

Trait level is not factored into MM (yet).

 

[Rev408]

If this has been addressed already I apologize but has the issues joining a public game on xbone been fixed?

 

[tragic]

Played coop for around 5 hours last night with a friend (using Playstaion party chat), the game ran beautifully and we were able to coordinate all our actions really well, we will hopefully have another friend join us tonight (he was still downloading full game so could not join after the Reactor) so we will be able to test out the 3 player coop in depth. From a lot of the replies in this thread it's obvious there is a problem with the adds and even with 2 players we were constantly on our toes so I imagine in single player it would be pretty difficult but my take is that the game is really geared towards coop play and having 3 players would make the game quite balanced.

The only thing the game is sorely missing is some AOE damage items like grenades etc, not sure if you unlock this stuff later but having a game with so many adds really needs something like this, not only that but it's staple of almost every shooter and it's absence in this game is quite surprising. A few more ammo drops would also be appreciated or giving everyone ammo anytime someone picks it up would be a better alternative.

Anyways it's an awesome game and we're really loving it, looks like there is tons to unlock, the stages are huge and there are some creative and well thought out secrets, it always seems like there is a reason to explore and the randomness of the environments/enemies actually works very well and encourages replay, I also personally like the constant barrage of enemies as the game never feels boring and there is a constant threat, I would prefer the game be very very difficult as opposed to normal or easy so I think the devs are on the right path.

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I mentioned this a couple other places, but the game was balanced for solo NORMAL and solo HARD before any coop adjustments were made.

There is quite a bit of AOE damage in the game.

Glad you are having a good time!

 

[R.T Straker]

How's performance on pC?

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It's very solid.

Few drops here and there deppending on the zone and what's going on but other then that it's a great PC version.

 

[tragic]

If this has been addressed already I apologize but has the issues joining a public game on xbone been fixed?

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I believe that fix is coming super soon. I'm not sure on the date but I believe it's soon (tm).

 

[thonerayman]

I'm sure some people who have read my posts think I hate this game. I don't. I've had my opportunity to talk with KirbyKid 1 on 1 and voice my opinion. I want to thank him for taking the time to at the very least listen, ask great questions and hear my answers. I want nothing but the best for gunfire. Also tragic thank you for your clear commitment to the fans. While we might have gone back and forth a few times over the last couple days I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and the team that worked with you on this title.

 

[Mejilan]

Unsure about additional MM options, but I know we've talked about some possible updates!

Trait level is not factored into MM (yet).

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As always, thank you for your prompt and candid responses.

 

[GymWolf86]

yes finally, fuck you

Spoiler

undead king

.

his weapon is crazy good.

 

[Deleted member 56580]

the devs have a official one, if your on pc we have a pcera discord and i usually make monthly channels for certain games and remnant has one at moment.

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sure thing, where can that be found please ?

 

[Altairre]

You are 100% right, and the skills you are asked to develop up to that point are: fight multiple enemies, deal with an elite (or two sometimes) that spawn, utilize the environment, stay alive, do dmg and win. This is exactly that the boss fights are except in a smaller room, with a bigger "elite".

First dungeon (typically) in City; lots of Hollow, some elites, and then exploder dudes running at you. No?

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Good bossfights tend to test that skill with unique boss mechanics that ask you to use the skills you've developed but with a unique spin on it. Like learning to parry strikes and simple combos from regular mobs or learning to recognize attacks that cannot be parried but have to be dodged and then a boss that uses faster, longer and different series of attacks and adds in attacks between those that you can't parry but have to dodge. You're using the skills you learned but you have to put them all together and apply them to a more challenging version of what you've learned. With gorefist you just have larger health bar to deal with and respawning mobs. Also in the regular elite fights you can prioritize way better and take care of the more annoying enemies before you concentrate on the elite. It actually becomes a one on one at some point and is all the better for it.

Again, I'm not trying to tell you how to design your games because you're way better at it than I ever will be and there are different perspectives on this stuff, that's just what I know I like from my personal experience with this genre.

Very true, but the trick is to not get hit by those guys. They have a loud squealing tell. They die in 1 shot from any starting long-gun (and 3 from the repeater pistol), and always spawn at a distance so they can run to you (you can get your bearings then deal with them, etc).

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I know they have a tell, it's just that it can be hard to pinpoint when they spawn in different locations (which seems to happen randomly) and run at you from different directions. I know you can use walls to try to funnel them, I just think the one shot potential due to their hitstun is not very fun to deal with because it's actually the bigger threat compared to the boss when imo the boss should take center stage. It didn't even take me particularly long to beat it, probably about 15 to 20 minutes, but it was enough to be annoying.

Again, the adds were never a bandaid solution. They are part of the puzzle.

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They're always the same part of the puzzle though then aren't they? I may be wrong on this since I haven't had to time to play more and progress further, it just seems somewhat tedious to add the same modifier to every single fight and limits what you can do with the mechanics because you always have to account for some amount of attention going to the adds instead of the main boss mechanics. Wouldn't it be more interesting if those boss mechanics required all the player's attention?

Edit: By the way, I just want to give props for devs directly interacting with feedback in this thread. I know how hard it can be to read and accept negative feedback to something you've spent so much time, sweat and tears on especially since the tone and format from random people on the internet can be pretty shitty (though I think this thread has been pretty good in that regard aside form a couple of dumb "lazy dev" posts). So thanks for that.