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Zassimick

Member
Nov 6, 2017
495
0MKKwQJ.jpg


Red Dead Redemption 2 is a game with so much praise and vitriol aimed at it, it sometimes seems difficult to have a good, positive discussion surrounding it.

Myself, I struggled with RDR2 early on due to issues that have been talked about ad nauseum, but more I played and understood the systems at play and took my time with it, I found myself enjoying it immensely. It was probably halfway through Chapter 3 that RDR2 really sunk its claws into me and didn't let go until the end. The story grabbed my attention and this is when Arthur Morgan really comes into his own as an incredible protagonist. And ho boy, that ending. It's something that has certainly stuck with me long after I've completed the game. I'd argue the epilogue was a little long, though it serves as a great bridge into the original Red Dead Redemption.

As I look at my ever-growing backlog of video games, I'm feeling the pull towards replaying some of my favorites. And after finishing RDR2, I'm finding I'd really like to go back and replay the original game.

Has anyone done this yet? What sort of story beats are you picking up on? How much has getting to know the Van der Linde Gang impacted the story of John Marston and his story in Red Dead Redemption? Any details that are sticking out to you from a world perspective or a gameplay one?

For those who maybe played Red Dead Redemption 2 first and are now playing the original for the first time, what can you tell us about the experience?
 

Darkwing-Buck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,346
Los Angeles, CA
I think some of the characters in RDR1 have not aged well at all.

Seth and Irish come to mind.

The Dutch scenes are still great even though
he only has 10 min of screen time.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,103
NL
Didn't care about Dutch or the gang at all when I played RDR. I think I will enjoy it more now, knowing the characters. But I'll wait for the remake. Why the hell is New Austin in RDR2 anyways?
 

Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
I've never played RDR1 and am curious if it's worthwhile to after RDR2.

And from a gameplay aspect, are the controls in RDR1 as shitty and heavy / unresponsive as RDR2?
 

Cam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,940
As a matter of fact, I started RDR last night and it still holds up. The camera is a bit further back than I'm used to and I'm mashing "greet" and expecting a HOWDY MISTER even though it doesn't exist in this one.
 
OP
OP
Zassimick

Zassimick

Member
Nov 6, 2017
495
As a matter of fact, I started RDR last night and it still holds up. The camera is a bit further back than I'm used to and I'm mashing "greet" and expecting a HOWDY MISTER even though it doesn't exist in this one.
This will ruin the experience for me. I might as well not even attempt to go back and replay the original game. :P
 

Certinfy

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
3,476
I was never a big fan of RDR1 but playing it after 2 I actually started to despise it.

Gameplay, visuals and stuff all held up fine though but the story really disappointed me. It begins well enough but then after a while I realised just how bad the story is. 90% of main missions are just doing random favours for pointless characters to get to the actual story related stuff. It honestly just doesn't feel like a continuation of RDR2's story wise.

I like to pretend RDR1 doesn't exist after playing 2 if I'm totally honest now.
 
Dec 3, 2018
723
I've been meaning to, Red Dead 2 is up there in the best games I have played now, as was the first at the time. It'll be interesting revisiting it now for sure.
 
OP
OP
Zassimick

Zassimick

Member
Nov 6, 2017
495
I was never a big fan of RDR1 but playing it after 2 I actually started to despise it.

Gameplay, visuals and stuff all held up fine though but the story really disappointed me. It begins well enough but then after a while I realised just how bad the story is. 90% of main missions are just doing random favours for pointless characters to get to the actual story related stuff. It honestly just doesn't feel like a continuation of RDR2's story wise.

I like to pretend RDR1 doesn't exist after playing 2 if I'm totally honest now.
Interesting. In one of the first replies someone mentioned some characters don't hold up well anymore, and seeing this makes me very curious.

I remember loving the game, but it's been years since I played RDR that I'm having trouble remembering it. I barely remember Dutch's involvement so it's probably good of me to replay it sometime, but knowing that the middle gets chore-heavy is something good to keep in mind.
 

Vire

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,591
The characters in the first game are much satirical and cartoon like. They don't behave or act in realistic ways, and their motivations are often questionable or silly at best.

I don't think you can really compare... but at least the game doesn't waste so much of my fucking time riding on horses from one place to the next. It's much more straightforward in that regard.
 

Certinfy

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
3,476
Interesting. In one of the first replies someone mentioned some characters don't hold up well anymore, and seeing this makes me very curious.

I remember loving the game, but it's been years since I played RDR that I'm having trouble remembering it. I barely remember Dutch's involvement so it's probably good of me to replay it sometime, but knowing that the middle gets chore-heavy is something good to keep in mind.
Dutch is pretty much non-existent in the game. Barely mentioned for most of it then just has a small period of missions related to him in the final third of the game. Even then he's physically in like 3/4 of the missions at most with ten minutes screentime at most. All the parts that actually relate to RDR2's story regarding taking down Bill, Javier and Dutch are barebone and rare.

Mexico is definitely a reason I wouldn't recommend anyone to replay this. The first time I played RDR it was never good but playing it again now it was truly horrible. Several times I actually considered putting the game down.
 

cb1115

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,347
haven't replayed it yet but watched some of the early cutscenes again. this one with Bonnie really sticks out with regards to connections to RDR2 (it's also one of the best scenes in the game, period):




totally forgot about John having a daughter
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
I started it back up for a bit, the gameplay feels quicker. The horse comes noticeably closer when you whistle for it, too

Never lost my hat
 

Reddaye

Member
Mar 24, 2018
2,902
New Brunswick, Canada
I tried going back and replaying it after finishing RDR 2, and honestly I found that I hated the gameplay, and gave up pretty early. I got up to Mexico and realized I wasn't having any fun, and so I stopped. For all the complaints that RDR 2 gets for it's controls and how things feel, I found myself vastly preferring the way it plays compared to the original. Everything about the game from the controls, to the side characters just didn't feel as grounded to me.

In the end I just went and rewatched all the cutscenes via Youtube.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
I doubt I'll be revisiting RDR1, as 2 changed things up so much that I think I'd have a miserable time playing it, but anyone who's never played it should absolutely give it a shot.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,711
ive replayed rdr1 after i finished rdr2 and in my opinion its still great, but... rdr2 felt like such a vast improvement that i definitely enjoyed it less than i did before playing rdr2.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,366
I don't think I can go back to RDR1's gameplay after playing RDR2.
 

Civzy

Member
Mar 21, 2019
142
The actor that plays Dutch van der Linde, Benjamin Byron Davis, shared an essay his 75-year-old mother wrote after playing Red Dead Redemption 2

Here's the link: LINK

Here's the post and essay:



The doorbell rang just as the doctor at St. Denis (a fictive town in the video game Red Dead Redemption 2) was telling Arthur, (my playable character in the 80+ hour game) that he had incurable tuberculosis. Devastated, I raced to the door, explained quickly to the technician that I couldn't sign anything for the moment, and rushed back to finish watching that cinematic cut into the regular action of the game.

As I returned to the door, I could hear the technician stifling a laugh. Clearly, he found it amusing that a woman of my advanced age was immersed in a video game. "Which one?" he asked pleasantly.

"Red Dead Redemption 2," I replied, and his mouth fell open. "You know it?" I asked. "Who doesn't?" he exclaimed. And of course, he did.

Red Dead Redemption 2 (RDR2) was one of the hottest games of 2018. The New York Times reported it making $725 million in the first three days it opened, making it the "highest grossing opening weekend of any entertainment product—ever" (Suderman, NYT, 11/25/18, p. 8). "I tried it," he said, "but I don't really have time to stay with the story with two young children climbing all over me." Yes, that would be hard. For me, at this stage in my life, my only regular interruption was my little dog who thought the horses, dogs, and other animals so realistically portrayed in Red Dead 2 were in the room with us. Lucky was also frightened by the sound of shooting guns that admittedly happened frequently throughout the game.

"How'd you get into it?" the technician asked. "My son is Dutch van der Linde." Dutch is the sophisticated enchanting evil manipulative philosophic idealistic intellectual outlaw whose charisma and treachery are at the center of the game.

"You mean the character in the game is like your son?" "No", I replied, "the character in the game is my son." He was baffled. "The actor who plays Dutch van der Linde is my son." "Oh. you mean, he gave the voice to the animated figure?" Apparently, this guy had never heard of performance capture and how the game's animation is framed by digital recordings of the actual actions and expressions of the actors. "Performance capture." I explained, "you know they wear the leotards with electric ping pong balls all over them?" "Oh yeah," the technician nodded, clearly impressed, unsure by what. "Well, good luck with it," the young man said, "Hope you win."

Win? Proof positive that he had never played Red Dead 2, a game that has no winners or losers and a course of action determined by individual players. For most of the time, as the only playable character Arthur Morgan, (a misguided big-hearted gunslinger), you're an actor in the theater of the game, riding your horse, tackling missions as directed, trying to do your best. For the rest of the time, you're the director, deciding what comes next in the narrative, making choices that range from virtuous vs. damnable courses of action to what outfit your character will wear.

Fully within the shape and direction of the narrative, you are co-constructor of a story…or is it a movie? Now and then, with filmed action cut-scenes, it definitely is. Either way, the New York Times calls the game a "work of art" (ibid, p.8); an online fan calls it an "experience"; I call it an "adventure." No, a "story." No, a movie in which I am the protagonist and the director. A reader of lines; a writer of outcomes. I agree. "A work of Art."

Origins
My son, actor Benjamin Byron Davis, worked on the Red Dead Redemption 2 project for five years. Five years of flying back and forth between Los Angeles and New York, memorizing countless lines (the script was 2000 pages long), rehearsing in locations on either coast, performing in black spandex "mo-cap" (motion capture) suits, gun belts at his side, riding a saw horse that would appear as a Tennessee Walker or an Arabian, imagining in a warehouse studio space, the vast landscape of the wild west.

Reportedly, the hardest part of it all was the non-disclosure agreement that the ensemble signed, assuring Rockstar Games that the actors would not reveal a minute of what they were doing prior to release, let alone that they had any knowledge that there would ever be a prequel to the earlier game, Red Dead Redemption.

When the game finally emerged, it was met with thunderous enthusiasm and commentary suggesting it had broken the boundaries between technology and art, exploring territory traditionally reserved for the arenas of dramatic or cinematic arts. Beautifully written, gorgeously acted, and outrageously picturesque, the game welcomes players into an imaginary world in which they can ride their horses all night, explore new directions as the sun rises, pause to camp under a shading tree or alongside a slippery river, feel a gentle rain, marvel at a star studded sky, and inter-relate with characters as close as fellow outlaws in the Van der Linde gang and as mysterious as strangers alongside an unknown road.

The terrain would become familiar, the dead tree marking the road to camp, the tree lined path to the Braithwaite Manor. the train tracks, water ways, and jagged narrow mountain paths. But I knew nothing of this when the Red Dead Redemption 2 ensemble of performance capture artists came to FanExpo Boston at the Boston Convention Center in August, 2019.

The Fans
I had never attended a fan expo or comic-con before. These conventions famously provide a venue where literally thousands of comic book/video game fans can gather. Walking about as if it was another day at the mall, are life sized superheroes, video characters, and other creative inventions of comic book types. The costumes are pristine and professional looking and even the youngest children look as if they've just emerged from their movie trailers down the street.

Walking through galleries of booths selling such collectible objects as original artwork and vintage comic books or giving away trinkets that promote an upcoming game, I was struck by the creativity with which the atmosphere was infused. And when I reached the designated area in which fans could actually meet their favorite video game actors and get an autograph or a selfie, I was astonished by the length of the lines. I knew this happened around the world; Benjamin had already taken part in conventions in Hawaii, Philadelphia, Texas, and Kuwait. But what impressed me greatly, moved some chord within that is devoted to the arts in education, was that practically all of the fans waiting on line to meet the real Dutch van der Linde, had a gift in hand. The gifts were drawings of Dutch from various scenes in the game, or "wanted" posters of the artist's design-an artistic response to the work of art that was the game; and the artwork itself was first rate. Surely some were more crudely drawn than others, but all the work presented had clearly been crafted with care and affection.

Reflection
Later, Dutch van der Linde (Benjamin) and Arthur Morgan (Roger Clark) sat on a panel and talked about the experience of working on Red Dead Redemption 2, the challenge of learning masses of lines in short periods of time, developing a role over time, working in those spandex suits, and especially the non-disclosure agreement that kept them from telling anyone what they were up to until release. It made the ensemble closer, only being allowed to talk about it all with each other. And then the questions came from the audience. I was sitting between Captain Marvel and I think the Joker, in a room filled with costumed articulate adults framing the most sophisticated questions, reflecting their knowledge of the narrative of the game, the process of production, and its place in the greater context of video game play, culture, and history.

"What other artistic arena was it most like?" "Literature." The actors replied. "When did Arthur discover Dutch wasn't all he had thought he was?" and among this interesting back and forth, an occasional fan would ask Arthur to call his horse or Dutch to say out loud the resonant phrase, "I have a plan." The fans waxed rhapsodic about the performances and I realized two things: 1) the attachment these players felt with the actors from the game was more intimate and profound than the connection audiences have with actors in plays and movies: and 2) the only way I would get to experience my son's celebrated performance was to learn to play Red Dead Redemption 2.

The Challenge
It was then that I bought a copy of the game (RDR2) and a Play Station 4 (PS4), the video console that enables game play. Installing the PS4 was not complicated but it took me a few days to find the courage to think that I was capable. The console came with a controller with which the player enters and navigates the game and learning how to use that smooth hand-held device took me the better part of two weeks. That was not just because of lack of confidence, not just because I believed that such a device belonged to another generation, but also because the controller is a pretty complicated device. There are so many options for control that I quickly ordered the Red Dead Redemption 2 guidebook which fearsomely is 385 pages long. The print is small. Enter my hand-held large red magnifying glass.

I practiced and practiced but mastery came slowly. My ineptitude with the controller prevented me from keeping my horse on a steady keel and caused me to make awful mistakes. I would unintentionally punch my horse or jump off it when I meant to jump on. I speak in the first person, but "I" in the game is the character of Arthur Morgan, a lovable gun slinger who has made some poor life choices but basically seeks to do good (when he is not shooting and looting bad guys).

Arthur and I are connected by that console; we decide where he will move, what he will wear, if he will shave his beard, give money to the collection pot for Dutch's gang, go into a saloon and play poker or check into a station and pay the bounty on our head for some or another murderous mistake. Consider the intimacy of the relationship when you and he are the lead character in the game. The console allows that connection.

With each week of game play (1-3 hours a day; occasionally a decadent lot more), my facility with the console increased and remarkably, as I got more facile, the game gave me more things to do-there seemed a reciprocity of skills and tasks. I felt scaffolded by the game (and that incredibly detailed guidebook) and that allowed me to invest fully in the experience of this alternate world where gangs were disappearing but still shooting it up and revenge was disparaged but still motivating bloodshed.

As we moved from the cold snowy opening scenes of the game throughout seasons of flowering and abundance, with animals (reportedly 200 species) gambling through meadows and towns, the environment became more detailed and complex. There were entries in Arthur's journal (drawings and words) to read and interpret, books on shelves that you could open and study, abandoned interiors to explore and loot, Native American lore to inspire, the chill of a wave of industrialization meticulously portrayed as a backdrop to the development and deterioration of characters to whom we grow unreasonably attached.

"Let's ride." Is a refrain you hear in the game that informed my play every time I returned to it. My designated chair; the open guidebook and the magnifying glass; my coffee on the table; a few post-its stuck to the mug—reminders about which is a punch which a repel; the smooth feel of the ps4 console in my hand, and I was ready to play. "Let's ride." And ride we did, through a landscape of images and words and music that sustained and engaged. A story line filled with excitement and nuance, chapter to chapter; through decisions that had consequence and proved our autonomy and effectiveness; attending to detail, collecting herbs, horses, weapons—so much to encounter and learn. I came to be unsurprised this game took 8 years to create. It would seem to require more.

The Journey
Meanwhile, my son had announced to his fans that his 75 year old mother was attempting to play Red Dead Redemption 2 and they responded with wonderful comments of support. They were moved I'd taken such trouble to see what my son had done, moved that an "older" person would make the effort to experience "their art." I was buoyed by their support; they called my efforts "wholesome." They made me feel welcome and proud of my novice exploration of the world they knew so well. And what did others know of the magic I was discovering in an area the uninformed consider a "waste of time"?

Perusing the topics of some of the very many academic articles on the subject, I noted that while there is persistent concern for the effects of violence in games, scholars in the field recognize a variety of positive aspects. Of interest to me, they acknowledge what I felt first-hand: the experience of "presence" as in actually being there within the game as well as a sense of personal efficacy as I moved along (Vorderer, Bryant, 2006). So much to learn from historical content to usable skills such as manual dexterity, spatial awareness, and the attention to detail inherent to aesthetic education.

As I came to the end of the RDR2 story, final scenes brought me to tears. The characters found the ways they were meant to find but not always what I would have wished for them. Since my son is a veteran actor, I have seen him in many roles, but never as an animated version of himself—a version that visually walked his walk and audibly exploited the dark and playful regions of his wonderful voice. My journey had allowed this encounter with an extraordinary performance of an extraordinary role. And I had also had the extraordinary experience of playing a role; well, sharing a role with the character Roger Clark so marvelously brought to life. I became facile with a venue I had previously only seen from a distance—a grandson ignoring me, attending somehow to this mysterious arena for play. I entered that world, became absorbed, and didn't hear when I was called for dinner.

In Closing
As I came into the finish line, I texted some reflections to my son:

…the "game" was somewhere between my recollections as a child of playing dolls that I dressed and placed in imaginary scenes and playing cowboys and Indians with those plastic figures whose legs were bowed so they could ride securely on their little plastic horses. But beyond the imaginary part of it all; it was so real. As if I was living in another time when folks travelled over roads that were narrow paths that led over wooden bridges and through rushing streams. And when the weather changed- my first worry was whether Arthur needed a coat or a bigger hat…and we kept going along beautiful trails, rowing wooden boats, jumping on wagons-noting all along stars in a changing sky, old houses that seemed familiar-as if they were from history and not an artist's pen.…and my attention to detail throughout spilled over into the real world beyond. I would hear voices in the supermarket that sounded like the background voices in RDR2.

How glorious the moment (the last time) when we saw the whole gang (fractured at that point but going off together) following Dutch on his white horse "Let's ride." Words cannot recreate for someone who has not entered this world what it contains and inspires. Such a range of emotions and encounters and I have yet to do anything with the watches and rings in my satchel, the playing cards, the dominoes …the letters we received. The world that was created here is rich with possibilities that I have still to explore, but it has taken me months to come from front to back, from ignorant thoughts of "just a video game" to real admiration of a "work of art."

Like other works of art, we never capture it all in one encounter, we can return and find new things over and over and the questions the work asks us are never fully answered, fraught with possibilities for interpretation. For me, this time, my question is: "where was redemption among these murderous heroes, these virtuous criminals, these friends to the end or not?" These outlaws, dealing death left and right, but so moved by the losses of each other. Evil and goodness all around, no clear lines between. Arthur's dream, a triumph against the winds and tides of the rest. And my triumph by the way, learning something new for which I had no experience or ability, awakened by the challenges and delight of this extraordinary creation.

What a privilege to play.


References

Suderman, P. (2018), New York Times Nov. 25,p.8/

Vorder, P. & Bryant, J. (2006) Playing Video Games: Motives, Responses, and Consequences. NY: Routledge.
 

Aswitch

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,118
Los Angeles, CA
Loved RDR2 after all was said and done. I don't see myself playing the first one again anytime soon. Then you have the weird inconsistencies like Arthur never being mentioned and little stuff like that I feel kinda takes away from the impact the RDR2 set beforehand.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
The actor that plays Dutch van der Linde, Benjamin Byron Davis, shared an essay his 75-year-old mother wrote after playing Red Dead Redemption 2

Here's the link: LINK

Here's the post and essay:



The doorbell rang just as the doctor at St. Denis (a fictive town in the video game Red Dead Redemption 2) was telling Arthur, (my playable character in the 80+ hour game) that he had incurable tuberculosis. Devastated, I raced to the door, explained quickly to the technician that I couldn't sign anything for the moment, and rushed back to finish watching that cinematic cut into the regular action of the game.

As I returned to the door, I could hear the technician stifling a laugh. Clearly, he found it amusing that a woman of my advanced age was immersed in a video game. "Which one?" he asked pleasantly.

"Red Dead Redemption 2," I replied, and his mouth fell open. "You know it?" I asked. "Who doesn't?" he exclaimed. And of course, he did.

Red Dead Redemption 2 (RDR2) was one of the hottest games of 2018. The New York Times reported it making $725 million in the first three days it opened, making it the "highest grossing opening weekend of any entertainment product—ever" (Suderman, NYT, 11/25/18, p. 8). "I tried it," he said, "but I don't really have time to stay with the story with two young children climbing all over me." Yes, that would be hard. For me, at this stage in my life, my only regular interruption was my little dog who thought the horses, dogs, and other animals so realistically portrayed in Red Dead 2 were in the room with us. Lucky was also frightened by the sound of shooting guns that admittedly happened frequently throughout the game.

"How'd you get into it?" the technician asked. "My son is Dutch van der Linde." Dutch is the sophisticated enchanting evil manipulative philosophic idealistic intellectual outlaw whose charisma and treachery are at the center of the game.

"You mean the character in the game is like your son?" "No", I replied, "the character in the game is my son." He was baffled. "The actor who plays Dutch van der Linde is my son." "Oh. you mean, he gave the voice to the animated figure?" Apparently, this guy had never heard of performance capture and how the game's animation is framed by digital recordings of the actual actions and expressions of the actors. "Performance capture." I explained, "you know they wear the leotards with electric ping pong balls all over them?" "Oh yeah," the technician nodded, clearly impressed, unsure by what. "Well, good luck with it," the young man said, "Hope you win."

Win? Proof positive that he had never played Red Dead 2, a game that has no winners or losers and a course of action determined by individual players. For most of the time, as the only playable character Arthur Morgan, (a misguided big-hearted gunslinger), you're an actor in the theater of the game, riding your horse, tackling missions as directed, trying to do your best. For the rest of the time, you're the director, deciding what comes next in the narrative, making choices that range from virtuous vs. damnable courses of action to what outfit your character will wear.

Fully within the shape and direction of the narrative, you are co-constructor of a story…or is it a movie? Now and then, with filmed action cut-scenes, it definitely is. Either way, the New York Times calls the game a "work of art" (ibid, p.8); an online fan calls it an "experience"; I call it an "adventure." No, a "story." No, a movie in which I am the protagonist and the director. A reader of lines; a writer of outcomes. I agree. "A work of Art."

Origins
My son, actor Benjamin Byron Davis, worked on the Red Dead Redemption 2 project for five years. Five years of flying back and forth between Los Angeles and New York, memorizing countless lines (the script was 2000 pages long), rehearsing in locations on either coast, performing in black spandex "mo-cap" (motion capture) suits, gun belts at his side, riding a saw horse that would appear as a Tennessee Walker or an Arabian, imagining in a warehouse studio space, the vast landscape of the wild west.

Reportedly, the hardest part of it all was the non-disclosure agreement that the ensemble signed, assuring Rockstar Games that the actors would not reveal a minute of what they were doing prior to release, let alone that they had any knowledge that there would ever be a prequel to the earlier game, Red Dead Redemption.

When the game finally emerged, it was met with thunderous enthusiasm and commentary suggesting it had broken the boundaries between technology and art, exploring territory traditionally reserved for the arenas of dramatic or cinematic arts. Beautifully written, gorgeously acted, and outrageously picturesque, the game welcomes players into an imaginary world in which they can ride their horses all night, explore new directions as the sun rises, pause to camp under a shading tree or alongside a slippery river, feel a gentle rain, marvel at a star studded sky, and inter-relate with characters as close as fellow outlaws in the Van der Linde gang and as mysterious as strangers alongside an unknown road.

The terrain would become familiar, the dead tree marking the road to camp, the tree lined path to the Braithwaite Manor. the train tracks, water ways, and jagged narrow mountain paths. But I knew nothing of this when the Red Dead Redemption 2 ensemble of performance capture artists came to FanExpo Boston at the Boston Convention Center in August, 2019.

The Fans
I had never attended a fan expo or comic-con before. These conventions famously provide a venue where literally thousands of comic book/video game fans can gather. Walking about as if it was another day at the mall, are life sized superheroes, video characters, and other creative inventions of comic book types. The costumes are pristine and professional looking and even the youngest children look as if they've just emerged from their movie trailers down the street.

Walking through galleries of booths selling such collectible objects as original artwork and vintage comic books or giving away trinkets that promote an upcoming game, I was struck by the creativity with which the atmosphere was infused. And when I reached the designated area in which fans could actually meet their favorite video game actors and get an autograph or a selfie, I was astonished by the length of the lines. I knew this happened around the world; Benjamin had already taken part in conventions in Hawaii, Philadelphia, Texas, and Kuwait. But what impressed me greatly, moved some chord within that is devoted to the arts in education, was that practically all of the fans waiting on line to meet the real Dutch van der Linde, had a gift in hand. The gifts were drawings of Dutch from various scenes in the game, or "wanted" posters of the artist's design-an artistic response to the work of art that was the game; and the artwork itself was first rate. Surely some were more crudely drawn than others, but all the work presented had clearly been crafted with care and affection.

Reflection
Later, Dutch van der Linde (Benjamin) and Arthur Morgan (Roger Clark) sat on a panel and talked about the experience of working on Red Dead Redemption 2, the challenge of learning masses of lines in short periods of time, developing a role over time, working in those spandex suits, and especially the non-disclosure agreement that kept them from telling anyone what they were up to until release. It made the ensemble closer, only being allowed to talk about it all with each other. And then the questions came from the audience. I was sitting between Captain Marvel and I think the Joker, in a room filled with costumed articulate adults framing the most sophisticated questions, reflecting their knowledge of the narrative of the game, the process of production, and its place in the greater context of video game play, culture, and history.

"What other artistic arena was it most like?" "Literature." The actors replied. "When did Arthur discover Dutch wasn't all he had thought he was?" and among this interesting back and forth, an occasional fan would ask Arthur to call his horse or Dutch to say out loud the resonant phrase, "I have a plan." The fans waxed rhapsodic about the performances and I realized two things: 1) the attachment these players felt with the actors from the game was more intimate and profound than the connection audiences have with actors in plays and movies: and 2) the only way I would get to experience my son's celebrated performance was to learn to play Red Dead Redemption 2.

The Challenge
It was then that I bought a copy of the game (RDR2) and a Play Station 4 (PS4), the video console that enables game play. Installing the PS4 was not complicated but it took me a few days to find the courage to think that I was capable. The console came with a controller with which the player enters and navigates the game and learning how to use that smooth hand-held device took me the better part of two weeks. That was not just because of lack of confidence, not just because I believed that such a device belonged to another generation, but also because the controller is a pretty complicated device. There are so many options for control that I quickly ordered the Red Dead Redemption 2 guidebook which fearsomely is 385 pages long. The print is small. Enter my hand-held large red magnifying glass.

I practiced and practiced but mastery came slowly. My ineptitude with the controller prevented me from keeping my horse on a steady keel and caused me to make awful mistakes. I would unintentionally punch my horse or jump off it when I meant to jump on. I speak in the first person, but "I" in the game is the character of Arthur Morgan, a lovable gun slinger who has made some poor life choices but basically seeks to do good (when he is not shooting and looting bad guys).

Arthur and I are connected by that console; we decide where he will move, what he will wear, if he will shave his beard, give money to the collection pot for Dutch's gang, go into a saloon and play poker or check into a station and pay the bounty on our head for some or another murderous mistake. Consider the intimacy of the relationship when you and he are the lead character in the game. The console allows that connection.

With each week of game play (1-3 hours a day; occasionally a decadent lot more), my facility with the console increased and remarkably, as I got more facile, the game gave me more things to do-there seemed a reciprocity of skills and tasks. I felt scaffolded by the game (and that incredibly detailed guidebook) and that allowed me to invest fully in the experience of this alternate world where gangs were disappearing but still shooting it up and revenge was disparaged but still motivating bloodshed.

As we moved from the cold snowy opening scenes of the game throughout seasons of flowering and abundance, with animals (reportedly 200 species) gambling through meadows and towns, the environment became more detailed and complex. There were entries in Arthur's journal (drawings and words) to read and interpret, books on shelves that you could open and study, abandoned interiors to explore and loot, Native American lore to inspire, the chill of a wave of industrialization meticulously portrayed as a backdrop to the development and deterioration of characters to whom we grow unreasonably attached.

"Let's ride." Is a refrain you hear in the game that informed my play every time I returned to it. My designated chair; the open guidebook and the magnifying glass; my coffee on the table; a few post-its stuck to the mug—reminders about which is a punch which a repel; the smooth feel of the ps4 console in my hand, and I was ready to play. "Let's ride." And ride we did, through a landscape of images and words and music that sustained and engaged. A story line filled with excitement and nuance, chapter to chapter; through decisions that had consequence and proved our autonomy and effectiveness; attending to detail, collecting herbs, horses, weapons—so much to encounter and learn. I came to be unsurprised this game took 8 years to create. It would seem to require more.

The Journey
Meanwhile, my son had announced to his fans that his 75 year old mother was attempting to play Red Dead Redemption 2 and they responded with wonderful comments of support. They were moved I'd taken such trouble to see what my son had done, moved that an "older" person would make the effort to experience "their art." I was buoyed by their support; they called my efforts "wholesome." They made me feel welcome and proud of my novice exploration of the world they knew so well. And what did others know of the magic I was discovering in an area the uninformed consider a "waste of time"?

Perusing the topics of some of the very many academic articles on the subject, I noted that while there is persistent concern for the effects of violence in games, scholars in the field recognize a variety of positive aspects. Of interest to me, they acknowledge what I felt first-hand: the experience of "presence" as in actually being there within the game as well as a sense of personal efficacy as I moved along (Vorderer, Bryant, 2006). So much to learn from historical content to usable skills such as manual dexterity, spatial awareness, and the attention to detail inherent to aesthetic education.

As I came to the end of the RDR2 story, final scenes brought me to tears. The characters found the ways they were meant to find but not always what I would have wished for them. Since my son is a veteran actor, I have seen him in many roles, but never as an animated version of himself—a version that visually walked his walk and audibly exploited the dark and playful regions of his wonderful voice. My journey had allowed this encounter with an extraordinary performance of an extraordinary role. And I had also had the extraordinary experience of playing a role; well, sharing a role with the character Roger Clark so marvelously brought to life. I became facile with a venue I had previously only seen from a distance—a grandson ignoring me, attending somehow to this mysterious arena for play. I entered that world, became absorbed, and didn't hear when I was called for dinner.

In Closing
As I came into the finish line, I texted some reflections to my son:

…the "game" was somewhere between my recollections as a child of playing dolls that I dressed and placed in imaginary scenes and playing cowboys and Indians with those plastic figures whose legs were bowed so they could ride securely on their little plastic horses. But beyond the imaginary part of it all; it was so real. As if I was living in another time when folks travelled over roads that were narrow paths that led over wooden bridges and through rushing streams. And when the weather changed- my first worry was whether Arthur needed a coat or a bigger hat…and we kept going along beautiful trails, rowing wooden boats, jumping on wagons-noting all along stars in a changing sky, old houses that seemed familiar-as if they were from history and not an artist's pen.…and my attention to detail throughout spilled over into the real world beyond. I would hear voices in the supermarket that sounded like the background voices in RDR2.

How glorious the moment (the last time) when we saw the whole gang (fractured at that point but going off together) following Dutch on his white horse "Let's ride." Words cannot recreate for someone who has not entered this world what it contains and inspires. Such a range of emotions and encounters and I have yet to do anything with the watches and rings in my satchel, the playing cards, the dominoes …the letters we received. The world that was created here is rich with possibilities that I have still to explore, but it has taken me months to come from front to back, from ignorant thoughts of "just a video game" to real admiration of a "work of art."

Like other works of art, we never capture it all in one encounter, we can return and find new things over and over and the questions the work asks us are never fully answered, fraught with possibilities for interpretation. For me, this time, my question is: "where was redemption among these murderous heroes, these virtuous criminals, these friends to the end or not?" These outlaws, dealing death left and right, but so moved by the losses of each other. Evil and goodness all around, no clear lines between. Arthur's dream, a triumph against the winds and tides of the rest. And my triumph by the way, learning something new for which I had no experience or ability, awakened by the challenges and delight of this extraordinary creation.

What a privilege to play.


References

Suderman, P. (2018), New York Times Nov. 25,p.8/

Vorder, P. & Bryant, J. (2006) Playing Video Games: Motives, Responses, and Consequences. NY: Routledge.

This is awesome.

Also Benjamin Byron Davis' mother is an excellent writer and I can tell where Dutch got his silver-tongued gift for gab from.
 

KomandaHeck

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,353
I played RDR again shortly before RDR2 came out and I really don't think it aged well at all. I always remember the story being the highlight but after going back to it, there was too much of that nihilistic DNA of Grand Theft Auto in there. RDR2 stumbles at times but I found that easy to overlook because its story is executed with such sincerity.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,512
I replayed RDR right after RDR2 and I was impressed how focused it felt. Also it's significantly shorter then RDR2. It took 15 hours to complete the game and all the side quests. I really liked how it looked with my Xbox One X.
 

Browser

Member
Apr 13, 2019
2,031
You know what blew my mind in RDR1?

the game flow. We start already in the shit, and in the end we have time to engage with the reason why we killed all these people, johns family. If that happened in the beginning, we would go through 40+ hours without them and the emotional impact would not be nearly as strong. It was genius.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
The actor that plays Dutch van der Linde, Benjamin Byron Davis, shared an essay his 75-year-old mother wrote after playing Red Dead Redemption 2

Here's the link: LINK

Here's the post and essay:



The doorbell rang just as the doctor at St. Denis (a fictive town in the video game Red Dead Redemption 2) was telling Arthur, (my playable character in the 80+ hour game) that he had incurable tuberculosis. Devastated, I raced to the door, explained quickly to the technician that I couldn't sign anything for the moment, and rushed back to finish watching that cinematic cut into the regular action of the game.

As I returned to the door, I could hear the technician stifling a laugh. Clearly, he found it amusing that a woman of my advanced age was immersed in a video game. "Which one?" he asked pleasantly.

"Red Dead Redemption 2," I replied, and his mouth fell open. "You know it?" I asked. "Who doesn't?" he exclaimed. And of course, he did.

Red Dead Redemption 2 (RDR2) was one of the hottest games of 2018. The New York Times reported it making $725 million in the first three days it opened, making it the "highest grossing opening weekend of any entertainment product—ever" (Suderman, NYT, 11/25/18, p. 8). "I tried it," he said, "but I don't really have time to stay with the story with two young children climbing all over me." Yes, that would be hard. For me, at this stage in my life, my only regular interruption was my little dog who thought the horses, dogs, and other animals so realistically portrayed in Red Dead 2 were in the room with us. Lucky was also frightened by the sound of shooting guns that admittedly happened frequently throughout the game.

"How'd you get into it?" the technician asked. "My son is Dutch van der Linde." Dutch is the sophisticated enchanting evil manipulative philosophic idealistic intellectual outlaw whose charisma and treachery are at the center of the game.

"You mean the character in the game is like your son?" "No", I replied, "the character in the game is my son." He was baffled. "The actor who plays Dutch van der Linde is my son." "Oh. you mean, he gave the voice to the animated figure?" Apparently, this guy had never heard of performance capture and how the game's animation is framed by digital recordings of the actual actions and expressions of the actors. "Performance capture." I explained, "you know they wear the leotards with electric ping pong balls all over them?" "Oh yeah," the technician nodded, clearly impressed, unsure by what. "Well, good luck with it," the young man said, "Hope you win."

Win? Proof positive that he had never played Red Dead 2, a game that has no winners or losers and a course of action determined by individual players. For most of the time, as the only playable character Arthur Morgan, (a misguided big-hearted gunslinger), you're an actor in the theater of the game, riding your horse, tackling missions as directed, trying to do your best. For the rest of the time, you're the director, deciding what comes next in the narrative, making choices that range from virtuous vs. damnable courses of action to what outfit your character will wear.

Fully within the shape and direction of the narrative, you are co-constructor of a story…or is it a movie? Now and then, with filmed action cut-scenes, it definitely is. Either way, the New York Times calls the game a "work of art" (ibid, p.8); an online fan calls it an "experience"; I call it an "adventure." No, a "story." No, a movie in which I am the protagonist and the director. A reader of lines; a writer of outcomes. I agree. "A work of Art."

Origins
My son, actor Benjamin Byron Davis, worked on the Red Dead Redemption 2 project for five years. Five years of flying back and forth between Los Angeles and New York, memorizing countless lines (the script was 2000 pages long), rehearsing in locations on either coast, performing in black spandex "mo-cap" (motion capture) suits, gun belts at his side, riding a saw horse that would appear as a Tennessee Walker or an Arabian, imagining in a warehouse studio space, the vast landscape of the wild west.

Reportedly, the hardest part of it all was the non-disclosure agreement that the ensemble signed, assuring Rockstar Games that the actors would not reveal a minute of what they were doing prior to release, let alone that they had any knowledge that there would ever be a prequel to the earlier game, Red Dead Redemption.

When the game finally emerged, it was met with thunderous enthusiasm and commentary suggesting it had broken the boundaries between technology and art, exploring territory traditionally reserved for the arenas of dramatic or cinematic arts. Beautifully written, gorgeously acted, and outrageously picturesque, the game welcomes players into an imaginary world in which they can ride their horses all night, explore new directions as the sun rises, pause to camp under a shading tree or alongside a slippery river, feel a gentle rain, marvel at a star studded sky, and inter-relate with characters as close as fellow outlaws in the Van der Linde gang and as mysterious as strangers alongside an unknown road.

The terrain would become familiar, the dead tree marking the road to camp, the tree lined path to the Braithwaite Manor. the train tracks, water ways, and jagged narrow mountain paths. But I knew nothing of this when the Red Dead Redemption 2 ensemble of performance capture artists came to FanExpo Boston at the Boston Convention Center in August, 2019.

The Fans
I had never attended a fan expo or comic-con before. These conventions famously provide a venue where literally thousands of comic book/video game fans can gather. Walking about as if it was another day at the mall, are life sized superheroes, video characters, and other creative inventions of comic book types. The costumes are pristine and professional looking and even the youngest children look as if they've just emerged from their movie trailers down the street.

Walking through galleries of booths selling such collectible objects as original artwork and vintage comic books or giving away trinkets that promote an upcoming game, I was struck by the creativity with which the atmosphere was infused. And when I reached the designated area in which fans could actually meet their favorite video game actors and get an autograph or a selfie, I was astonished by the length of the lines. I knew this happened around the world; Benjamin had already taken part in conventions in Hawaii, Philadelphia, Texas, and Kuwait. But what impressed me greatly, moved some chord within that is devoted to the arts in education, was that practically all of the fans waiting on line to meet the real Dutch van der Linde, had a gift in hand. The gifts were drawings of Dutch from various scenes in the game, or "wanted" posters of the artist's design-an artistic response to the work of art that was the game; and the artwork itself was first rate. Surely some were more crudely drawn than others, but all the work presented had clearly been crafted with care and affection.

Reflection
Later, Dutch van der Linde (Benjamin) and Arthur Morgan (Roger Clark) sat on a panel and talked about the experience of working on Red Dead Redemption 2, the challenge of learning masses of lines in short periods of time, developing a role over time, working in those spandex suits, and especially the non-disclosure agreement that kept them from telling anyone what they were up to until release. It made the ensemble closer, only being allowed to talk about it all with each other. And then the questions came from the audience. I was sitting between Captain Marvel and I think the Joker, in a room filled with costumed articulate adults framing the most sophisticated questions, reflecting their knowledge of the narrative of the game, the process of production, and its place in the greater context of video game play, culture, and history.

"What other artistic arena was it most like?" "Literature." The actors replied. "When did Arthur discover Dutch wasn't all he had thought he was?" and among this interesting back and forth, an occasional fan would ask Arthur to call his horse or Dutch to say out loud the resonant phrase, "I have a plan." The fans waxed rhapsodic about the performances and I realized two things: 1) the attachment these players felt with the actors from the game was more intimate and profound than the connection audiences have with actors in plays and movies: and 2) the only way I would get to experience my son's celebrated performance was to learn to play Red Dead Redemption 2.

The Challenge
It was then that I bought a copy of the game (RDR2) and a Play Station 4 (PS4), the video console that enables game play. Installing the PS4 was not complicated but it took me a few days to find the courage to think that I was capable. The console came with a controller with which the player enters and navigates the game and learning how to use that smooth hand-held device took me the better part of two weeks. That was not just because of lack of confidence, not just because I believed that such a device belonged to another generation, but also because the controller is a pretty complicated device. There are so many options for control that I quickly ordered the Red Dead Redemption 2 guidebook which fearsomely is 385 pages long. The print is small. Enter my hand-held large red magnifying glass.

I practiced and practiced but mastery came slowly. My ineptitude with the controller prevented me from keeping my horse on a steady keel and caused me to make awful mistakes. I would unintentionally punch my horse or jump off it when I meant to jump on. I speak in the first person, but "I" in the game is the character of Arthur Morgan, a lovable gun slinger who has made some poor life choices but basically seeks to do good (when he is not shooting and looting bad guys).

Arthur and I are connected by that console; we decide where he will move, what he will wear, if he will shave his beard, give money to the collection pot for Dutch's gang, go into a saloon and play poker or check into a station and pay the bounty on our head for some or another murderous mistake. Consider the intimacy of the relationship when you and he are the lead character in the game. The console allows that connection.

With each week of game play (1-3 hours a day; occasionally a decadent lot more), my facility with the console increased and remarkably, as I got more facile, the game gave me more things to do-there seemed a reciprocity of skills and tasks. I felt scaffolded by the game (and that incredibly detailed guidebook) and that allowed me to invest fully in the experience of this alternate world where gangs were disappearing but still shooting it up and revenge was disparaged but still motivating bloodshed.

As we moved from the cold snowy opening scenes of the game throughout seasons of flowering and abundance, with animals (reportedly 200 species) gambling through meadows and towns, the environment became more detailed and complex. There were entries in Arthur's journal (drawings and words) to read and interpret, books on shelves that you could open and study, abandoned interiors to explore and loot, Native American lore to inspire, the chill of a wave of industrialization meticulously portrayed as a backdrop to the development and deterioration of characters to whom we grow unreasonably attached.

"Let's ride." Is a refrain you hear in the game that informed my play every time I returned to it. My designated chair; the open guidebook and the magnifying glass; my coffee on the table; a few post-its stuck to the mug—reminders about which is a punch which a repel; the smooth feel of the ps4 console in my hand, and I was ready to play. "Let's ride." And ride we did, through a landscape of images and words and music that sustained and engaged. A story line filled with excitement and nuance, chapter to chapter; through decisions that had consequence and proved our autonomy and effectiveness; attending to detail, collecting herbs, horses, weapons—so much to encounter and learn. I came to be unsurprised this game took 8 years to create. It would seem to require more.

The Journey
Meanwhile, my son had announced to his fans that his 75 year old mother was attempting to play Red Dead Redemption 2 and they responded with wonderful comments of support. They were moved I'd taken such trouble to see what my son had done, moved that an "older" person would make the effort to experience "their art." I was buoyed by their support; they called my efforts "wholesome." They made me feel welcome and proud of my novice exploration of the world they knew so well. And what did others know of the magic I was discovering in an area the uninformed consider a "waste of time"?

Perusing the topics of some of the very many academic articles on the subject, I noted that while there is persistent concern for the effects of violence in games, scholars in the field recognize a variety of positive aspects. Of interest to me, they acknowledge what I felt first-hand: the experience of "presence" as in actually being there within the game as well as a sense of personal efficacy as I moved along (Vorderer, Bryant, 2006). So much to learn from historical content to usable skills such as manual dexterity, spatial awareness, and the attention to detail inherent to aesthetic education.

As I came to the end of the RDR2 story, final scenes brought me to tears. The characters found the ways they were meant to find but not always what I would have wished for them. Since my son is a veteran actor, I have seen him in many roles, but never as an animated version of himself—a version that visually walked his walk and audibly exploited the dark and playful regions of his wonderful voice. My journey had allowed this encounter with an extraordinary performance of an extraordinary role. And I had also had the extraordinary experience of playing a role; well, sharing a role with the character Roger Clark so marvelously brought to life. I became facile with a venue I had previously only seen from a distance—a grandson ignoring me, attending somehow to this mysterious arena for play. I entered that world, became absorbed, and didn't hear when I was called for dinner.

In Closing
As I came into the finish line, I texted some reflections to my son:

…the "game" was somewhere between my recollections as a child of playing dolls that I dressed and placed in imaginary scenes and playing cowboys and Indians with those plastic figures whose legs were bowed so they could ride securely on their little plastic horses. But beyond the imaginary part of it all; it was so real. As if I was living in another time when folks travelled over roads that were narrow paths that led over wooden bridges and through rushing streams. And when the weather changed- my first worry was whether Arthur needed a coat or a bigger hat…and we kept going along beautiful trails, rowing wooden boats, jumping on wagons-noting all along stars in a changing sky, old houses that seemed familiar-as if they were from history and not an artist's pen.…and my attention to detail throughout spilled over into the real world beyond. I would hear voices in the supermarket that sounded like the background voices in RDR2.

How glorious the moment (the last time) when we saw the whole gang (fractured at that point but going off together) following Dutch on his white horse "Let's ride." Words cannot recreate for someone who has not entered this world what it contains and inspires. Such a range of emotions and encounters and I have yet to do anything with the watches and rings in my satchel, the playing cards, the dominoes …the letters we received. The world that was created here is rich with possibilities that I have still to explore, but it has taken me months to come from front to back, from ignorant thoughts of "just a video game" to real admiration of a "work of art."

Like other works of art, we never capture it all in one encounter, we can return and find new things over and over and the questions the work asks us are never fully answered, fraught with possibilities for interpretation. For me, this time, my question is: "where was redemption among these murderous heroes, these virtuous criminals, these friends to the end or not?" These outlaws, dealing death left and right, but so moved by the losses of each other. Evil and goodness all around, no clear lines between. Arthur's dream, a triumph against the winds and tides of the rest. And my triumph by the way, learning something new for which I had no experience or ability, awakened by the challenges and delight of this extraordinary creation.

What a privilege to play.


References

Suderman, P. (2018), New York Times Nov. 25,p.8/

Vorder, P. & Bryant, J. (2006) Playing Video Games: Motives, Responses, and Consequences. NY: Routledge.
Jesus, she's a national treasure. That was wonderful and really moved me in a way, someone of her generation taking the time to approach a new art form fully and immersed in it. And the admiration she has for her son, the way she writes feel as if I found a letter from Dutch's mother in the game.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,600
I think some of the characters in RDR1 have not aged well at all.

Seth and Irish come to mind.

The Dutch scenes are still great even though
he only has 10 min of screen time.

Yup, was replaying the game and those characters are fucking awful. Seth in particular is such a nasty, vile, fucked up character. Dont know what rockstar was thinking with him
 

Civzy

Member
Mar 21, 2019
142
Jesus, she's a national treasure. That was wonderful and really moved me in a way, someone of her generation taking the time to approach a new art form fully and immersed in it. And the admiration she has for her son, the way she writes feel as if I found a letter from Dutch's mother in the game.

It's one of the best things I've ever read to give an entire perspective by someone not deep into gaming like I am... which is very refreshing.

tumblr_phohkiQXJ81tm0eroo5_500.gifv
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,711
Yup, was replaying the game and those characters are fucking awful. Seth in particular is such a nasty, vile, fucked up character. Dont know what rockstar was thinking with him

i mean, rockstar is well known for creating lots of fucked up characters, and given the context/setting it makes a lot of sense too.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
I love RDR1 but there are some missteps with the motivators of the game, especially after playing RDR2's much more serious main storyline.

I've written this before so for some I'll be a broken record, but a problem with RDR1 motivations is that ... John basically gets taken advantage of by every incompetant nincolmpoop in the west. John is presented as a hardened criminal, a guy who can do your dirty work, it's why the Feds have basically forced him into this work for them. But... Who are the people John has to follow around to get to what he needs?

A dingbat derelyct grave robber who is apparently in love with corpses.
A wiley crazy snake oil salesman who continually lies to John
A drunk Irishman huckster who is incessantly being run down by people he owes money to or screwed over
A two-faced Mexican socialist revolutionary and romantic who is clearly looking out for himself...
A cocaine-addicted Princeton professor who is clearly off his nuts

...

And so on and so forth.

There's only a handful of characters who are legitimately not incompetant fools. Bonnie McFarlane, the nun from Las Hermanas, and Landon Rickets. Even when you finally play through most of the story and get back to Blackwater to finally do your tasks for the Pinkertons, they're presented as bubbling fools who can't get along. Their car breaks down, they squabble with one another, they both get in each others ways. There's a couple conversations with Edgar Ross that make him seem fearful, but most don't.

Worse off, all of these characters have John run errands in a predictably fool-hearted way. Nigel Wes Dickens is by far the worst, you -- the player -- know he's conning you, but Marston does tasks for him over and over again and Dickens keeps breaking his promise. Seth is similar. And Marston does the same thing every time, he gets mad, says "This is the last time!" and then they do it again until you've done it enough times and finally they bring you closer to your goal. Marston ends up being a fool most of the time, which doesn't square with why the Pinkertons would use him for dirty work to begin with. In RDR2, of course, Arthur is much better written, Arthur is generally never in a position where you doubt he wasn't a bloodthirsty killer, save for maybe the handful of times he gets drunk or something.

RDR2 does portray John as a fool for a lot of the early story, Arthur is brutal to him throughout most of it, but John ultimately becomes redeemed in the end, Arthur believes in him. So, I think part of the foolishness of John makes sense in RDR1, how he's so easily taken advantage of, but in RDR1 alone it really doesn't and if you play through RDR2, obviously John becomes a redeemed character and *not* the fool he is in most of RDR1.

There are some aspects of RDR2 that seem to add some depth to RDR1 characters, particularly a bit I've wrestled with which is that I wonder whether the game insinuates that John isn't really Jack's father. The antagonists in RDR1 regularly criticize John for falling in love with Abigail, with either Bill Williamson or Dutch himself talking about how "They all had her." Now, obviously, anything could have happened in the time before RDR2 prior to John getting Abigail pregnant, but it doesn't quite seem to jive with the nature of their camp. There are plenty of floozies in Dutch's gang, but they don't seem to trade the women within the gang, and while Dutch has his irreptuable suitors, it doesn't seem like he would have slept with Abigail prior to Marston falling for her, or what have you. But, who knows, it's set before the game so you don't know for sure. There are a couple early lines in RDR2 where I thought they were setting up a potential parentage dispute for Arthur, John, and Jack, but it's never explored so probably just something I was looking for that isn't there.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,711
I love RDR1 but there are some missteps with the motivators of the game, especially after playing RDR2's much more serious main storyline.

I've written this before so for some I'll be a broken record, but a problem with RDR1 motivations is that ... John basically gets taken advantage of by every incompetant nincolmpoop in the west. John is presented as a hardened criminal, a guy who can do your dirty work, it's why the Feds have basically forced him into this work for them. But... Who are the people John has to follow around to get to what he needs?

A dingbat derelyct grave robber who is apparently in love with corpses.
A wiley crazy snake oil salesman who continually lies to John
A drunk Irishman huckster who is incessantly being run down by people he owes money to or screwed over
A two-faced Mexican socialist revolutionary and romantic who is clearly looking out for himself...
A cocaine-addicted Princeton professor who is clearly off his nuts

...

And so on and so forth.

There's only a handful of characters who are legitimately not incompetant fools. Bonnie McFarlane, the nun from Las Hermanas, and Landon Rickets. Even when you finally play through most of the story and get back to Blackwater to finally do your tasks for the Pinkertons, they're presented as bubbling fools who can't get along. Their car breaks down, they squabble with one another, they both get in each others ways. There's a couple conversations with Edgar Ross that make him seem fearful, but most don't.

Worse off, all of these characters have John run errands in a predictably fool-hearted way. Nigel Wes Dickens is by far the worst, you -- the player -- know he's conning you, but Marston does tasks for him over and over again and Dickens keeps breaking his promise. Seth is similar. And Marston does the same thing every time, he gets mad, says "This is the last time!" and then they do it again until you've done it enough times and finally they bring you closer to your goal. Marston ends up being a fool most of the time, which doesn't square with why the Pinkertons would use him for dirty work to begin with. In RDR2, of course, Arthur is much better written, Arthur is generally never in a position where you doubt he wasn't a bloodthirsty killer, save for maybe the handful of times he gets drunk or something.

RDR2 does portray John as a fool for a lot of the early story, Arthur is brutal to him throughout most of it, but John ultimately becomes redeemed in the end, Arthur believes in him. So, I think part of the foolishness of John makes sense in RDR1, how he's so easily taken advantage of, but in RDR1 alone it really doesn't and if you play through RDR2, obviously John becomes a redeemed character and *not* the fool he is in most of RDR1.

this is very true and upon replaying rdr 1 it was painfully obvious, especially right after rdr 2, which handles this much more elegantly and most of the "wacky" characters are relegated to side quests which you can just choose to ignore.

i feel that the running errands for crazy people angle in rdr 1 is a leftover from the gta roots of the writing/formula, while rdr 2 has fully divorced from it.

the game really shines from blackwater and on though, all the stuff with Ross and Dutch and your farm is A+++.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
this is very true and upon replaying rdr 1 it was painfully obvious, especially right after rdr 2, which handles this much more elegantly and most of the "wacky" characters are relegated to side quests which you can just choose to ignore.

i feel that the running errands for crazy people angle in rdr 1 is a leftover from the gta roots of the writing/formula, while rdr 2 has fully divorced from it.

the game really shines from blackwater and on though, all the stuff with Ross and Dutch and your farm is A+++.

Yeah, exactly... I think the writing was still sort of stuck in GTA-land, where silly characters make you do things in a sort of "... Here we go again..." approach. I also have this problem with GTAIV, where similar to Marston, Niko is this cold blooded killer from Eastern Europe, and yet he's taken advantage of or made to do menial tasks by every misfit in New York. With GTAIV, you can kinda explain away "Well, he's new to America... he doesn't know..." But in RDR1 it's harder to explain that away with John, he's lived this rough and tumble gang life from since he was a boy, he shouldn't be so easily conned.

Also you're right that RDR2 does the silly characters much better. They're present, all over to be honest, but none of them are in your core gang. It's very believable that Dutch's gang would be a fearsome unit that the Pinkertons would be enlisted to take down. Dutch, himself, is the best written character I can think of. I think he's completely believable as the leader of a gang of misfit toys, promising a better life, but being deeply flawed on his own.
 

craven68

Member
Jun 20, 2018
4,548
Sorry for putting back the thread, but i m playing rdr 1 for the first time, i loved 2 and it's really difficult to like the 1 when you first rdr is the second.
i am in mexico, i find the game 'fun' but not that much, i m liking it but not that much.
The story is pretty bad ? i feel like there is no story on this game like really, you are a servant for other people that tell you : do this do that .
Does the game get better story wise? I really wanted to play rdr 1 for the story
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
RDR1 feels so basic compared to the second one, on every level, including writing and characterization.
 

toadkarter

Member
Oct 2, 2020
2,011
I think some of the characters in RDR1 have not aged well at all.

Seth and Irish come to mind.

The Dutch scenes are still great even though
he only has 10 min of screen time.

The Seth stuff is a but cringe but the Irish stuff is just outrageous. I don't think I have ever seen Irish people portrayed this badly in any medium, even the accent is wrong lol. They kinda make up for it in RDR2 with a much more true to life Irish character.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
Well let's hope that all these rumors about remake are true and we get it soon enough.
 
Nov 2, 2018
1,948
Sorry for putting back the thread, but i m playing rdr 1 for the first time, i loved 2 and it's really difficult to like the 1 when you first rdr is the second.
i am in mexico, i find the game 'fun' but not that much, i m liking it but not that much.
The story is pretty bad ? i feel like there is no story on this game like really, you are a servant for other people that tell you : do this do that .
Does the game get better story wise? I really wanted to play rdr 1 for the story

It gets better after Mexico where the last third of the game from meeting Dutch to the final conclusion is at least pretty coherent.

Still has its wacky characters.

I would love a reimagined remake where West Dickens and the like are all turned into side quests and the main story is played more straight with a renewed focus on the gang and Arthur's legacy.
 

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,700
I did this (kinda) last year. I'd already played and finished RDR1 back in 2019 (and loved it), then played/finished RDR2 last year (also loved it in different ways), and right afterwards, I went back to RDR1 and played the first few chapters. It made me appreciate it a little more, I think, both in terms of story (not saying it's anywhere near as complex as RDR2's, but references and such make more sense) and gameplay, which is just a lot faster than RDR2, where sheer realism and complexity take a backseat to more streamlined/quick gameplay. I love both games pretty much equally, as they both represent the near-pinnacle for me for their respective generations. I think I might finish up that second RDR1 playthrough now. :)

Edit: RDR1 was a more solitary experience, and gave me similar, introspective feelings that BOTW did...

1o1aTcv.jpg


RDR2 though had *moments* that I will forever remember due to how amazingly well they were done...

RDLSBa6.jpg


Either way, both are just superb.
 
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Skiptastic

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,681
ghibli99 basically echoed my experiences (except I beat RDR back when it first came out with Undead Nightmare). I played RDR1 on my Xbox One X after playing RDR2 and I appreciated RDR1 more than I did the first time. I missed a lot of the little things that are in RDR2 (I like saying hi to people as Arthur, I like building a relationship with my horse, etc.) but overall, it was a different experience, so that's fine. I also appreciated how well they took the bits and pieces of John's former life as outlined in RDR1 and fleshed it out so much more in RDR2.

I really hope that they one day make a "next gen" remaster of both games, because I think it's two of my favorite games of all time. And that moment when you bring Jack home that ghibli posted above is perhaps my favorite moment in video games ever.
 

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,700
ghibli99 basically echoed my experiences (except I beat RDR back when it first came out with Undead Nightmare). I played RDR1 on my Xbox One X after playing RDR2 and I appreciated RDR1 more than I did the first time. I missed a lot of the little things that are in RDR2 (I like saying hi to people as Arthur, I like building a relationship with my horse, etc.) but overall, it was a different experience, so that's fine. I also appreciated how well they took the bits and pieces of John's former life as outlined in RDR1 and fleshed it out so much more in RDR2.

I really hope that they one day make a "next gen" remaster of both games, because I think it's two of my favorite games of all time. And that moment when you bring Jack home that ghibli posted above is perhaps my favorite moment in video games ever.
Outside of full remasters, if it's at all possible (I have no idea if things in these games are tied to framerate), an fps unlock/boost on Series consoles would be spectacular.
 

Deadmangaming

Member
Nov 24, 2020
147
John vs Arthur, Which way of dying is worse? To multiple gunshots or to an illness? Do you think what kind of spiritual animal John is seeing before he dies?